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Tanking with DD Gear - A GuideFollow

#1 Jan 30 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,720 posts
WORK IN PROGRESS - Posts are all in!!! Now, working on each section

Foreword: At the request of some up and coming PLDs (friends as well as members of this forum), I've agreed to write a guide to DD PLD. The first thing to keep in mind is that this is just that, a guide. It isn't a bible. It isn't a code of conduct. It's not even a "I do things this way because Dracoth said so." This is primarily based on my experiences while leveling PLD with insights from the rest of the community. If you don't like it, that's great. Don't use it. I won't be offended, even if I grow offensive to your comments elsewhere on the boards. I should also mention that a LOT of this information is pulled from various sources. I'll be using The FFXI Wiki for damage formulas, for instance, and Kanican's enmity testing to discuss a lot of the math behind it. I'll also be comparing this to the traditional "turtle" builds, as well, and I'll do my best to advocate everything as equally as possible. No promises, though. I've also tried to be as thorough as possible, so bear with the long windedness of it. Every section will try to have a tl; dr section, but what's the purpose of a guide if it doesn't back up what it talks about?

Table of Contents:

I. Introduction
II. General Information
III. The Math
IV. The Equipment and Food
V. The Party
VI. Camps/Mobs
VII. Missions
VIII. End Game

INTRODUCTION
PLD is one of the original advanced jobs, introduced while the game was still only available in Japan and on the PS2. By the time FFXI came to North America, other jobs followed behind the original advanced jobs and each was given different roles. PLD was viewed as a tanking job; that is, the PLD attempts to keep the mob on himself so that his allies can fight without as much need to worry about getting hit themselves. It facilitated XP parties and led to a general increase in XP/hr, which ultimately is the goal of DD PLD, as well.

The traditional PLD focused on defense. By raising his defense, he hoped to decrease how much damage he took per hit. By raising his vitality, he also hoped to decrease damage. Agility plays some role in evading mobs and is theorized to support the rate of the defensive skills - parry, evade, shield. The more HP a PLD had, the longer he could go before the mob could kill him. The more MP a PLD had, the longer he could keep his hp up and keep hate on himself. The Artifact Armor that a PLD can quest was geared very much along these lines. The style proved effective and was the one primarily used. It faced a few hurdles along the way (the rise of NIN tanks, for instance), but through various adjustments, the job was molded in to a viable blood tank. Many people were comfortable with this.

Then, a small number of PLDs began experimenting with a new style of PLD. One that didn't focus on defense to the exclusion of offense. One that felt that a PLD could contribute to the death of the mob. As they became more vocal in different forums, different people began testing it out. And, amazingly, the style was shown that it worked better in some circumstances than others. A rivalry grew between DD PLD and Turtle PLD which still continues to this day. The question, then, is what constitutes DD PLD and why is it so important. This guide is intended to address the what and the why. It is not intended to state that DD PLD is the way to go in ALL circumstances.

Many people in the game still have not acknowledged the why. DD PLD is important because it does a number of things to help facilitate the PLD's goal to tank. This is of utmost importance. If a PLD truly wants to live to his potential, he will recognize that it is important to live up to the first goal of tanking. That goal is to keep the attention of the mob in a limited number of places. It should be stressed that a good tank is not a tank who keeps hate on himself 100% of the time. Rather, a good tank has hate a majority of the time and uses every tool at his disposal to limit the damage done to others when hate is focused on someone else.

The claim when DD PLD was first introduced was that by focusing on damage, a PLD would be able to hold hate easier. This was later found to be true, but the formulas for enmity were not known at that time and it was only by anecdotal evidence that it could be claimed. The damage dealt to the monster had the added bonus killing it faster and led to an increase in XP per hour.

So, as a PLD, why should you consider DD PLD?

  • You want to help damage the mob as well as tank it
  • You want to hold hate better through damage dealt
  • You like seeing bigger numbers when you attack the mob

  • The last point is a bit personal. A lot of people like Big Number Syndrome (BNS) and like watching the hp of the mob plummet. As a PLD, there are a few select gear setups and WS's that can allow for BNS, but don't expect to compete with the DD jobs. It's mostly to get the feeling of BNS while tanking.

    Section III will discuss the actual numbers behind enmity generation and will show how DD PLD can actually hold hate better than one relying solely on taking less damage, curing damage taken, and using job abilities. It should be noted that even a DD PLD should be doing the above, so the difference truly comes down to the difference between enmity generated by damage dealt and enmity lost generated by damage taken.

    There are a lot of reasons that DD PLD works. But, not everyone is a proponent of it yet. There are even players that are VERY against DD PLD. DD PLD does, in fact, have its drawbacks. In particular, DD PLD doesn't work when:

  • Extreme over camping - mobs that con IT++
  • Mobs that have extremely damaging tp moves
  • Party setups that don't have adequate support
  • Half hearted attempts to really get into it

  • Most parties have recognized that getting 200 XP over the course of a five minute fight is a lot worse than getting 150 XP over the course of a two minute fight. Yet, there are still parties that followed the paths of others as the game was being explored. BNS has a LOT of impact in what people want to do - 200 is bigger than 150, and if time scales aren't involved, most people would want to choose the 200 XP over the 150 XP. As such, many established camps that players have been going to for years actually involves a lot of over camping. By scaling back in levels and going to camps a bit later, players have been able to garner XP faster by utilizing smaller fight times and smaller XP increases. If your party absolutely has to fight the traditional routes, DD PLD may not be for you.

    In addition, there are several mobs that have moves that if they catch unexpectedly will have you lying in the dirt. Details of these mobs of these sorts will be addressed in Section VI. Again, it's not that DD PLD doesn't work on these. It's more that the traditional turtle hero may be a better fit for these parties.

    DD PLD is also a job that requires adequate support. A DD PLD does take more damage from the mob per hit than his fellow. Sometimes, it results in a small amount. Sometimes it results in a larger amount. If the PLD's support is insufficient to keep up with this increase of damage, the tradtional PLD might be a better fit.

    Finally, a DD PLD who only half-heartedly gets involved with his DD will end up doing more harm than good. This isn't to say that a DD PLD has to have the best gear. She doesn't. It helps, sure, but if she can't use that gear to its best use, then others will watch her performance and judge the whole system based on the performance of that single PLD. THIS is a travesty that is part of human nature.

    Finally, a few things that EVERY tank should remember:

  • If a DD wants hate, they can usually get it
  • Having hate 100% of the time is an ideal but not an expectation
  • Likewise, sometimes keeping hate 100% of the time results in more problems than it helps
  • MP management and ability usage will make or break a PLD's career and reputation

  • Open conversation about the guide is welcome. Criticism and critique will be evaluated and, if I so feel, will be incorporated into the guide at my discretion.

    Edited, Jan 30th 2009 1:19pm by Dracoth

    Edited, Jan 30th 2009 1:48pm by Dracoth
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #2 Jan 30 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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    2,720 posts
    II. GENERAL INFORMATION

    This section will address the general abilities of the PLD, including subjobs and abilities, and how those choices relate to DD PLD.

    The Inherent PLD

    PLD has a lot of tools that make it a great tank. First and foremost, it should be pointed out that a PLD is a PLD regardless of subjob selection. A subjob is only a means to helping a PLD in his goal for many of the events that the PLD participates in. As abilities and spells are listed, they will be accompanied with Volatile Enmity (VE) and Cumulative Enmity (CE) results, as found listed on Kaeko's Blog. VE and CE will be discussed in Section III.

    Job Abilities

    Invincible (1) - Invincible allows a PLD to ignore most physical damage for the space of 30 seconds. Magic damage and ranged attacks can bypass this resistance so the PLD isn't truly Invincible while using this ability. Because it is a 2 Hour ability, however, the cool down stops most PLDs from using this ability until it is truly desperate. As a rule of thumb, regardless of type of PLD, a PLD who dies to normal attacks and had this ability unused should have used it to prolong the fight by up to 30 more seconds, allowing the mob to be finished. This is, of course, not true if other activities (end game) will require the use of your 2 hour ability. Invincible generates 1 CE and 7200 VE.

    Holy Circle (5) - Gives everyone in the party the chance to intimidate undead.
    The only time to use this ability is really when you're fighting Undead and lose hate to someone for an extended period of time. PLD already has Undead Killer, so they don't need this trait to intimidate Undead. Holy Circle generates 1 CE and 20 VE. This is NOT an effective hate tool.

    Shield Bash (15) - Our first reliable stun. The chance of stunning is directly affected by the difference between the PLD's level and the target's level. This makes it effective for PLD but not so much for /PLD. Damage is also dealt to the mob. It generates 1 CE and 900 VE.

    Sentinel (30) - Sentinel is a sort of mini-Invincible. Damage taken is greatly reduced, starting at 90% damage reduction at first and slowly decreasing to 40% damage reduction. This alone greatly affects the levels of enmity by reducing the amount of enmity lost. In addition to this, it generates 1 CE and 1800 VE in use and maximizes out the Enmity modifier of everything the PLD does so that every action taken within the 30 second window of Sentinel generates double the CE and VE.

    Cover (35) - As mentioned in the introduction, there are times when another party member will pull hate on the mob and the PLD will be left standing there. This ability allows the PLD to still take the damage despite not having hate. It takes proper placement - the PLD must be directly between the target (who should have hate) and the mob. Only physical damage is taken by the PLD during Cover. Cover is unique among PLD abilities in that it generates no VE.

    Rampart (62) - Rampart increases the defense and applies a special magical damage stoneskin effect on all party members in range. It can also overwrite certain Defense Up and Defense Down effects. Rampart generates 1 CE and 300 VE per party member effected. The use of Rampart depends on the party set up and target mobs. If a mob has a lot of magic damage effects, Rampart can be saved to counter them to a limited extent. If a mob does not, it can be used to quickly generate VE.

    For completion's sake, Merit Abilities will also be included.

    Fealty (75 - Category II Merit) - Fealty blocks status ailments from affecting the PLD during it's minute duration. Damage will still be taken, but any slow, paralyze, blind, or other ailments will fail to take effect. Essentially, this is a specialized form of invincibility that allows a PLD's support line to worry more about hp than status effects removal. The draw back is a long recast ranging from 10 minutes (fully merited) to 20 minutes (unlocked). It generates 1 CE and 300 VE.

    Chivalry (75 - Category II Merit) - Chivalry uses all of a PLD's TP and changes it into MP, specifically at a rate of TP * (0.5 + 0.015 * MND). Essentially, this allows a PLD to recharge one of the critical pieces in his tanking set: his MP. Again, the recast can be a small problem, ranging from 10 minutes to 20 minutes depending on merits spent. Chivarly generates 1 CE and 300 VE.

    Job Traits

    Undead Killer (5) - Allows for a small chance that an Undead mob attacking the PLD may become intimidated. The activation rate appears to be ~10%. A nifty trait but since Undead are generally bad mobs to XP on, this ability should see little use while leveling PLD.

    Defense Bonus (10) - Increases the Defense value of the PLD. This trait does not stack with any other traits from other sources (such as a WAR). This trait is also one of the reasons that a PLD does not benefit from having a high defense from gear. The trait is tiered: +10 at 10, +22 at 30, +35 at 50, +48 at 70. Refer to Section III for a discussion on the decreasing returns of Defense.

    Resist Sleep (20) - This trait gives PLDs an increased chance of resisting sleep effects. Due to the fact that most PLDs are tanking, however, they should wake up long before this trait would see any real use. Again, a nifty trait but one that won't see regular use. This is why PLD mobs are harder to sleep, however.

    Shield Mastery (25) - This trait is what defines the PLD and his signature piece of equipment, the shield. Shield Mastery grants the PLD an increase in TP gained from an enemy's attack if a shield block occurs. As an added bonus, it also prevents a spell being cast from being interrupted by an enemy's attack.

    Auto-Refresh (35) - A PLD gains 1 mp/tick, allowing them to regain mp over the course of a battle. It does stack with Refresh gained from spells and from gear but it does not stack with other Auto-Refresh traits.

    Again, for completion's sake, merits will be included in this discussion.

    Guardian (75 - Category II Merit) - This trait is only active while Sentinel is active. It reduces the amount of CE lost for whatever cause CE is reduced. Each merit reduces the loss by 19%.

    Iron Will (75 - Category II Merit) - This trait is only active while Rampart is active. It adds a Spell Interruption Rate Down effect to Rampart. Each merit increases the Rate Down by 19%.

    Spells

    Cure (I, II, III, IV) - These spells are the first bread and butter hate tools available to a PLD. Every time hp is restored, CE and VE are generated. The formulas for this will be discussed in Section III.

    Banish (I, II) - Banish spells are useful in only a small portion of the game. Certain undead resistances can be reduced by casting banish on them. There is also a small of amount of damage that is dealt. These spells are usually not worth the effort for a PLD to cast, however.

    Protect (I, II, III, IV)/Shell (I, II, III) - Spells which raise the Defense or Magic Defense of the target. Useful for solo work and when a WHM, RDM, or SCH is not available as a Support character. These spells also generate a small amount of VE (80 per spell).

    Flash (37) - Flash is PLD's Provoke. While it doesn't generate the total enmity that Provoke does, it does generate 180 CE and 1280 VE. It also blinds the target which may result in a decrease of damage taken. It has a longer initial recast than Provoke but, due to Enmity and Haste modifiers, it can be much more efficient in the long run.

    Holy (55) - Same as Banish without any hidden effects on mobs. Due to a long recast and a large mp cost, this spell has very situational use.

    Reprisal (61) - Reprisal increases the chance of blocking with a shield. The rate is still being tested but is visibly noticeable. It also reflects a portion of the damage taken back upon the attacker.

    Subjobs

    The subjob that a PLD chooses plays a big role in her ability to maintain her first priority - controlling enmity.

    WARRIOR
    Ideal Level Use: 10-75
    The bread and butter sub of PLD since the first PLD attempted to tank. WAR has all of the abilities and traits that a PLD wants most - good HP, good STR, good VIT, an ability to generate enmity quickly, and more. As it turns out, /WAR is the go to sub for both DD PLD and Turtle PLD although for slightly different reasons.

    The traditional style of PLD used Defender to increase defense and lower the amount of damage taken. He also used Provoke to generate a large amount of VE quickly. Warcry could be used for a similar reason but suffers from a longer casting time. Berserk was mostly unheard of in this style as it causes a noticeable increase in damage taken. Warcry can be used for a quick enmity spike when it is available.

    DD PLD, on the other hand, uses /WAR for its more offensive capabilities. Most DD jobs above 30 recognize the benefits of using /WAR as a sub and PLD is no exception. Provoke still proves a highly useful hate generating ability. Double Attack increases the number of swings that a PLD will take with his sword. Berserk increases damage output. Berserk, though, can not often be taken for its full duration because of the increase in damage taken. Instead, it can be used to quickly boost attack for a WS before either being canceled (pre 35), user while Sentinel is up then canceled (35-50), or used while Sentinel is up then negated by using Defender then becoming active again (canceling Defender) just in time to WS and then cancel Berserk. Warcry can be used to enhance a WS as well as a good source of VE if used constantly during the party. In addition to this, /WAR provides an attack bonus to the PLD, increasing their attack if only by a small amount.

    Regardless of the style the PLD wishes to pursue, /WAR is a vital sub to have available.

    NINJA
    Ideal Level Use: 74-75 (50-75 with proper setup)
    Ninja is the go to sub for most jobs seeking to reduce damage taken. It also aids jobs using one-handed weapons by providing more options in offensive equipment in the form of a second weapon in the Sub equipment slot and an increased attack rate when using both weapons. Utsusemi is an incredibly useful spell which negates certain attacks in their entirety. If NIN had a built in Enmity creation tool, it could easily become the sub of choice for PLD. But, due to balance issues, this will never be the case.

    In terms of the traditional PLD, /NIN sees most use after Utsusemi: Ni becomes available (74). The quick casting time of Ni and the (relative) fast casting time of Ichi allow a PLD to avoid the blood tanking aspect of tanking. Other guides have addressed this approach (with or without DD set in), particularly ScarShiva's post on the subject. [To do: Find link to this post]

    The DD PLD can benefit from Dual Wield and from Utsusemi as well but due to the lack of shadows and hate tools prior to 74, it becomes a lack luster sub for solo tanking. In a co-tank situation, a PLD/NIN can bounce hate through judicious use of spells and abilities. In essense, Dual Wield and Ichi do not make up for the loss of a shield or Provoke. From 50 on, when Dual Wield II kicks in, a party can use a TP Burn mentality and allow hate to bounce around the DDs a little more. A PLD in these circumstances who is geared correctly can work as a first "voke" as well as provide healing support while dealing damage.

    RDM
    Ideal Level Use: 68-75
    Red Mage has a slew of traits and spells that allow a PLD to tank effectively. However, the best of these abilities is not gained until much later in the PLD's leveling career, namely, those that reduce the damage that a PLD takes. By using Phalanx, which reduces damage by a fixed amount per hit, and Stoneskin, which absorbs damage up to a certain limit, a PLD/RDM reduces the amount of CE lost from taking damage. In addition to this, several RDM spells produce large amounts of Enmity at low mp cost, allowing the Auto-Refresh of a PLD/RDM to make the most of his mp. Specifically, Blind (1 CE & 640 VE for 5 mp at 10 second recast), Bind (1 CE and 640 VE for 8 mp and 30 second recast), Poison (1 CE and 320 VE for 5 mp and 5 second recast), and Sleep (320 CE and 320 VE for 19 MP and 30 second recast) allow for higher VE and CE than /WAR.

    It should be noted that for DD PLD, /RDM also adds Enspells, which add a small amount of hate free damage, and the damage reduction makes gear selection less of a point, allowing the PLD/RDM to "get away" with the gear a lot easier. However, the constant casting of spells will greatly impact the PLD's ability to deal damage, thus making this particular sub fall more in the range of the Turtle PLD.

    DANCER
    Ideal Level Usage: 20-75
    Wings of the Goddess introduced Dancer, the only job besides WAR with a Provoke like job ability (i.e., intended to pull the attention of the mob as it's primary purpose). Many thought that there was finally another sub that would work for PLD. Some proponents of this subjob welcomed the addition, but by and large, the PLD community was disappointed in the results. This is not to say that this is completely accurate, however.

    /DNC provides the PLD with several key features that benefit a DD style. Waltzes provide an alternative to cures, allowing the PLD a further way to keep themselves alive. Waltzes also provide the ability to erase several effects through the use of Healing Waltz. The subjob has an Accuracy Bonus which becomes active for the PLD, allowing him to up his hit rate. Steps allow the PLD to inflict various status effects on the opponent (defense down and evasion down being the only two available to PLD/DNC) and build up Finishing Moves for use with Flourishes. Animated Flourish functions similar to Provoke, generating 1 CE and 1500 VE for two finishing moves. If only one move is available, the expected VE generated is 750. Each samba also generates 1 CE and 300 VE, making for a very small boost to enmity totals while also providing either a drain effect or an aspir effect to melee damage.

    But, at its heart, the real draw back for PLD/DNC in terms of DD PLD is that many of its abilities require the use of TP in order to activate them. TP serves as a second source of MP, in essence, and limits the PLDs ability to WS, reducing his over all damage. In fact, it could be said that DD PLD benefits /DNC more than /DNC benefits DD PLD. For the purposes of tanking, however, this is of little concern - it can be made to work and should be considered as an option.

    BLUE MAGE
    Ideal Level Usage: 16-75 with diminishing returns at higher levels, useful at 75 for Super Tank strategies
    Blue Mage has access to several spells that help a great deal in tanking. Some of these spells are accessible as a sub job due to their lower level. /BLU also has the added benefit of adding job traits to the PLD, such as Auto-Regen, without compromising either his offensive or defensive capabilities.

    Both styles of PLD gain the use of job traits such as Auto-Regen and Clear Mind as well as spells such as Cocoon (a spell that raises their defense rating by 50%). They benefit from a higher base mp and gain use to Head ****, which at lower levels seems to proc often enough to be worthwhile to use as a sub. It also adds to their offensive capability at lower levels. However, the lack of any really effective Enmity tools (no blind/bind/poison equivalents), this sub has a harder time holding hate than other subs.

    This sub really shines in situations where the PLD needs all the survival tools he can get but can't perform actions on the mobs on which he is facing. Further discussion will take place in later sections of the guide.

    DARK KNIGHT
    Ideal Level Usage: 75
    Dark Knight provides a host of tools that provide a quick jump in enmity. Job abilities such as Last Resort (1 CE and 1300 VE) and Souleater (1 CE and 1300 VE) can quickly lift a PLD's VE level. However, each of these abilities is countered by lowering Defense or lowering HP upon a successful hit. As such, they are most often canceled after use to remove the negative aspects. A PLD also gains access to Poison, Bind, and Sleep for quick boosts to VE similar to a RDM. He would also gain access to Stun which can be used to both generate hate and stop a big move from completing. The quick generation of VE can make /DRK great for a zerg situation or one in which the PLD needs to quickly get the attention of a lot of mobs.

    SAMURAI
    Ideal Level Usage: 70+
    SAM provides a DD PLD wishing to use a two handed weapon the edge they need. The two handed update allowed the disparity between two handed weapons and one handed weapons to be seen in greater detail. PLDs only have native skill is Great Swords and Staves and of the Staves, they have limited selection in damaging staves, making Great Swords the way to go for two-handed action. /SAM provides Hasso (Haste + STR increase while active) and Seigan (Reduced recast time for Third Eye, chance to counter, and a chance to keep Third Eye up even after use) for alternating offensive and defensive styles. It also provides Meditate, which provides the PLD with 60 free TP every 3 minutes. This sub will allow a PLD to get the most DD from his Great Sword while also maintaining a level of Defense. However, due to a lack of high enmity tools and penalties to recasts while using Hasso or Seigan, it is hard to tank as PLD/SAM and as such, this is mostly a toy for two-handed builds and not a viable XP sub.

    MONK
    Ideal Level Usage: 24-30
    There is an argument that WAR/MNK is the greatest tank for the duration of the Kazham levels (refer to section VI) because of the mobs being fought. Mandragoras have a high attack rate but hit weekly per hit and are relatively weak defensively. A WAR/MNK using a Great Axe has a chance of countering each attack from the Mandragora for high amounts of damage, using his defense to further fuel his enmity levels. PLD/MNK would attempt to emulate this fact but it has to do so without the aid of Provoke, Flash, or Sentinel, as the PLD would be too low of a level for some of these and would not have the remaining available. As such, a PLD would have to grab attention using Boosts (1 CE, 300 VE) every 15 seconds to attempt to maintain hate on the Mandragora. Once hate was established, it would be a little easier to begin holding it, but because of the way Boost works, hate would already have to be established on the mob before the boosting cycle continued. Two boosts in 30 seconds also only generates 600 VE which is only 1/3 of the amount generated by Provoke in the same amount of time. While an interesting thought process, the numbers just don't add up for this sub to be useful all that often. This sub would also work better with a DD PLD style than a Turtle Style, as counter is directly influenced by accuracy and enmity by damage dealt.

    PUPPETMASTER
    Ideal Level Usage: 1-10
    Puppetmaster brings one thing to the job - a separate entity that can provide either healing or dd support. However, it lacks any real abilities for generating hate and a subbed puppet makes a horrible tank (whether or not a main PUP's automaton can tank is a separate debate). As such, this job gets better use as an aid to leveling low level jobs. An automaton has full access to frames, heads, and attachments from level 1 and has access to spells according to how high their magic skill is. A soulsoother automaton can main heal quite easily in the levels before level 10. Once a PLD starts partying, however, it's time to pack the automaton away.

    WHITE MAGE, BLACK MAGE, and SCHOLAR
    These jobs add very little to a PLD. Stoneskin is gained from WHM earlier but it has no Phalanx to back it up. The PLD already has access to cure spells, so little is gained here. Status affliction removal spells have little to show in the way of VE. With few hate tools not already gained by being a PLD, these jobs fail to serve any vital function for Turtle or DD PLD. They are mostly used for travel or utility.

    THIEF
    Thief's normal role in a party is to help someone else have hate. As such, very few of their abilities work well for a PLD. While Sneak Attack would increase the damage of an attack, a PLD shouldn't be willing to rely on it since it requires attacking the back of the mob - she shouldn't be willing to face that back long enough to make use of consistent Sneak Attacks! Treasure Hunter increases drop rates, however, and flee can be used to help cover large distances more quickly, so PLD/THF has a place farming and traveling but not in XP.

    DRAGOON and RANGER
    Many DD classes chose to use Dragoon or Ranger as a subjob. Dragoon gains an attack bonus early, increasing the users ability to do damage at a level when attack means more than accuracy. Ranger gains an accuracy bonus earlier on. The bonus, when first gained, is even more than the coveted Peacock Charm. Dragoon also provides Jump and High Jump, abilities which grant "free" attacks according to their timers. Certain subjob items also grant significant Haste increases. However, both jobs lack key hate tools, making these either solo subjobs (of which there are better choices) or situational subjobs. They sees little action, if any.

    BEAST MASTER
    Beast Master grants the ability to charm mobs and use them to fight other mobs. In a Solo situation, /BST is great as it allows for more damage to be generated quickly against a single target from having two attackers. In a Party Situation, the extra DD generated fails to out weigh the primary reason PLDs are invited to parties - there are no decent hate tools from /BST. There is also the catch that the level of the PLD's BST is vital to what it can and can't charm.

    BARD and CORSAIR
    While Bard and Corsair are great support jobs for a party, they add few hate tools and have long cast or recast times. In order to use the songs as hate tools, the PLD has to wait a large number of seconds to get the hate - time that the PLD isn't swinging, casting, or using job abilities. Add to this the fact that a /BRD can only have one song active and /COR can only have one roll active, and PLD/BRD or PLD/COR are never seen in a tanking situation.

    SUMMONER
    Summoner has nothing remotely useful to PLD trying to maintain hate. Auto Refresh traits do not stack, making the traits useless. Although /SMN would provide more MP than any other sub, the PLD is still limited to their original selection of spells or avatars which are barely half as effective as a main SMN's avatars would be.

    TL; DR: A PLD's place is to tank in an xp party. As such, their abilities are designed to generate a lot of VE. The subjobs of choice, depending on the situation, are /WAR, /NIN, /RDM, /DNC, /BLU, and /DRK. Each sub provides different benefits to a DD PLD.

    Edited, Mar 7th 2009 10:10am by Dracoth
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #3 Jan 30 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
    ***
    2,720 posts
    III. THE MATH
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #4 Jan 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    IV. THE EQUIPMENT AND FOOD

    This section will be similar to NCCoda's gear thread, but I'm only going to focus on gear to be used while DD tanking. I'll leave a few notes where I think they are warranted and, again, will update the guide according to constructive criticism as we go. For a detailed list of Turtle Tanking gear (the traditional method), refer to NCCoda's thread.

    Mandatory items will be in red.
    Luxury items will be in orange.
    Rare/Ex items will be in italics.

    I will mostly be leaving +1 items off unless there's a noticable enough reason to get one. For some, +1 items just aren't worth the cost. Some items, though, are either insanely cheap or incredibly better, so they will be listed as the +1's.

    Working category: Links will be added at a later date - right now, I just want the items in. I've also only included TP gear. WS gear and macro gear will be added later. For now, though, this is what I wanted out there.

    TP Gear

    Weapon
    1 - Wax Sword +1
    11 - Bee Spatha +1
    18 - Fire Sword
    19 - Aurigo Xiphos
    25 - Anthos Xiphos
    30 - Centurion's Sword
    34 - Bastokan Sword
    38 - Divine Sword
    39 - Grudge Sword
    42 - Honor Sword
    50 - Tactical Magician's Espadon
    52 - Tactical Magician's Espadon +1
    60 - ******* Sword
    65 - Company Fleuret - will out damage the Espadon. Especially useful on birds.
    65 - Save the Queen -- Latent: +20 Accuracy while cover is active!
    66 - Espadon
    69 - Sinfender
    70 - Company Sword
    70 - Joyeuse
    73 - Justice Sword
    73 - Mensur Epee
    75 - Brave Blade - Use til you unlock Atonement!

    Sub (aka, Shield)
    1 - Lauan Shield
    8 - Maple Shield
    9 - Clipeus
    13 - Elm Shield
    19 - Lantern Shield
    25 - Bastokan Targe
    28 - Kite Shield
    38 - Jennet Shield
    43 - Heater Shield
    50 - Royal Knight Army Shield
    58 - Wivre Shield
    60 - Iron Ram Shield
    69 - Terror Shield
    72 - Ice Shield
    72 - Palmerin's Shield

    Ranged
    Usually, this slot stays open for me. If you really want to fill it...

    55 - Lightning Bow

    Ammo
    1 - Happy Egg
    8 - Attar of Roses
    25 - Morion Tathlum
    30 - Millefleurs Sachet
    30 - Olibanum Sachet
    50 - Optical Needle
    54 - Smart Grenade
    58 - Tiphia Sting
    69 - Goblin Cracker
    73 - Virtue Stones - You'll know if you need these or not

    Head
    1 - Bronze Cap
    1 - Cache-nez
    1 - Horror Head II - Highly situational
    10 - Royal Footman's Bandana
    15 - San d'Orean Bandana
    16 - Bone Mask +1
    21 - Beetle Mask +1
    24 - Emperor/Empress Hairpin
    30 - Mercenary Captain's Headgear
    41 - Voyager Sallet
    43 - Valkyrie's Mask
    43 - Walkure Mask
    45 - Iron Ram Helm
    70 - Optical Hat
    72 - Aurum Armet
    73 - Koenig Schaller
    75 - Ares's Mask
    75 - Askar Zuchetto
    75 - Homam Zuchetto
    75 - Shadow Helm
    75 - Walahra Turban

    Neck
    3 - Pile Chain
    21 - Spike Necklace
    24 - Tiger Stole - Tiger Stole is better until the user reaches a total of 175 attack. At that point, the extra Strength of the Spike Necklace will out-DD it.Due to the nature of fSTR and PLD's naturally lower base damage than WAR, this number does not hold. It's a corner case for where this actually beats Spike Necklace on PLD.
    33 - Peacock Charm/Amulet
    55 - Royal Guard's Collar
    56 - Merman's Gorget
    60 - Chivalrous Chain
    73 - Fortitude Torque
    74 - Ancient Torque

    Ear
    10 - Energy Earring
    10 - Hope Earring
    16 - Bone Earring +1
    21 - Beetle Earring +1
    35 - Buckler Earring
    45 - Tortoise Earring
    52 - Accurate Earring
    55 - Spike Earring
    63 - Merman's Earring
    70 - Fowling Earring
    72 - Ethereal Earring
    72 - Suppanomimi
    75 - Brutal Earring

    Body
    1 - Bronze Harness
    7 - Leather Vest
    10 - Royal Footman's Vest
    16 - Bone Harness +1
    21 - Beetle Harness +1
    24 - Chainmail
    25 - Phobos's Cuirass
    30 - Mercenary Captain's Doublet
    35 - Deimos's Cuirass
    40 - Royal Squire's Chainmail
    45 - Brigandine Armor
    45 - Loisant Haubert
    45 - Iron Ram Chainmail
    55 - Jaridah Peti
    57 - Scorpion Harness
    59 - Haubergeon
    71 - Avalon Breastplate
    75 - Ares's Cuirass
    75 - Homam Corazza
    75 - Shadow Breastplate

    Hands
    1 - Bronze Mittens
    7 - Leather Gloves
    10 - Legionnaire's Mittens
    10 - Royal Footman's Gloves
    14 - Battle Gloves
    15 - Bastokan Mittens
    15 - San d'Orian Gloves
    27 - Custom Gloves (Hume)
    27 - Magna Gauntlets/Gloves (Elvaan)
    27 - Wonder Mitts (Taru)
    30 - Royal Squire's Mufflers
    43 - Gothic Gauntlets
    45 - Iron Ram Mufflers
    45 - Luisant Moufles
    50 - Royal Knight's Mufflers
    55 - Fourth Division Gauntlets
    68 - Fourth Division Hentzes
    70 - Tarasque Mitts
    72 - Dusk Gloves
    75 - Ares's Gauntlets
    75 - Askar Manopolas
    75 - Homam Manopolas
    75 - Shadow Gauntlets

    Finger
    1 - Desperado Ring
    14 - Mighty Ring - For more information aboue why this ring does what it does until 40, see this thread
    30 - Rajas Ring - Not the best ring for TP - mostly useful near end game levels
    40 - Sniper's Ring
    40 - Woodsman Ring
    50 - Ulthalam's Ring

    Back
    4 - Rabbit Mantle
    18 - Breath Mantle
    36 - High Breath Mantle
    61 - Amemet Mantle +1
    75 - Cerberus Mantle

    Waist
    15 - Warrior's Belt +1
    18 - Barbarian's Belt
    40 - Haste Belt
    48 - Life Belt
    50 - Swift Belt - Life belt will beat Swift Belt whenever the user has less than about 25% haste
    60 - Potent Belt

    Legs
    1 - Bronze Subligar
    7 - Leather Trousers
    15 - Phlegethon's Trousers
    16 - Bone Subligar +1
    21 - Beetle Subligar +1
    25 - Bastokan Subligar - If you can't afford Republican, than settle for this. Cheapo.
    25 - Republican Subligar - Obviously, this piece is better - get it if you can
    45 - Iron Ram Breeches
    45 - Luisant Brayettes
    55 - Royal Knight Breeches
    72 - Aurum Cuisses
    72 - Dusk Trousers
    75 - Askar Dirs
    75 - Homam Cosciales
    75 - Shadow Cuishes

    Feet
    1 - Bronze Leggings
    1 - Noble Poulaines
    7 - Bounding/Leaping Boots
    7 - Leather High Boots
    16 - Bone Leggings +1
    21 - Beetle Leggings +1
    24 - Wing Boots
    28 - Air Solea +1
    29 - Eisenschuhs
    38 - Mountain Gaiters
    43 - Gothic Sabatons
    45 - I.R. Sollerets
    52 - Gallant Leggings
    72 - Amir Boots
    72 - Aurum Sabatons
    72 - Dusk Ledelsens
    75 - Ares's Sollerets
    75 - Askar Gambieras
    75 - Homam Gambieras
    75 - Shadow Sabatons



    Enmity Gear

    Enmity gear has a special place for DD PLDs. Namely, a PLD using Enmity gear while using a job ability or curing can boost that move and help that PLD maintain a higher level of hate. Enmity gear should be macrod and not full timed, however, as enmity gear has less effect on enmity gained from dealing damage if it has replaced other useful stats. Some enmity gear is included in the above lists primarily because there is little of value to use at the level it is gained or the enchantment is lost if the item is removed (Breath Mantle and High Breath Mantle being the more obvious pieces).

    Red categories can be swapped without causing blinking. Although blinking shouldn't be an issue, if it is, you can choose focus on swapping gear that isn't affected by blinking.

    Shield
    58 - Wivre Shield (+5)/+1 (+6)
    69 - Terror Shield (+4)
    70 - Cabellero Shield (+2)
    73 - Koenig Shield (+3)/Kaiser Shield (+4)

    Head
    1 - Cache-nez (+1)
    50 - Rival Ribbon (+2)
    56 - Gallant Coronet (+2)
    68 - Iron Ram Sallet (+5)
    70 - Hydra Salade (+5)
    70 - Lord's Armet (+2)/King's Armet (+3)
    73 - Adaman Barbuta (+2)/Gem Barbuta (+3)
    73 - Valor Coronet (+3)
    74 - Gallant Coronet +1 (+3)
    75 - Bahamut's Mask (+8)
    75 - Valor Coronet +1 (+4)

    Neck
    50 - Hateful Collar (+1)
    72 - Harmonia's Torque (+3)
    75 - Ritter Gorget (+3)

    Ear
    67 - Hades Earring (+1)/+1 (+2)

    Body
    50 - Parade Cuirass (+2)
    60 - Gallant Surcoat (+2)
    71 - Avalon Breastplate (+3)
    73 - Adaman Cuirass (+3)/Gem Cuirass (+4)
    74 - Gallant Surcoat +1 (+2)
    75 - Valor Surcoat (+4)/+1 (+5)

    Hands
    50 - Storm Manopolas (+3)
    54 - Gallant Gauntlets (+2)
    68 - Iron Ram Dastanas (+4)
    70 - Hydra Moufles (+6)
    70 - Lord's Gauntlets (+2)/King's Gauntlets (+3)
    72 - Valor Gauntlets (+3)
    73 - Adaman Gauntlets (+2)/Gem Gauntlets (+3)
    73 - Gallant Gauntlets +1 (+2)
    75 - Askar Manopolas (+4)
    75 - Homam Manopolas (+3)
    75 - Valor Gauntlets +1 (+4)

    Finger
    30 - Sattva Ring (+3) - Not a horrible choice for PLD, but it's chosen mainly for the enmity.
    43 - Mermaid's Ring (+2)
    66 - Hercules' Ring (+3)

    Back
    18 - Breath Mantle (Enchantment, +3)
    36 - High Breath Mantle (Enchantment, +5)
    40 - Resentment Cape (+2)
    70 - Valor Cape (+3)
    72 - Toreador's Cape (+4)
    75 - Cerberus Mantle (+3)/ +1 (+4)

    Waist
    51 - Astral Rope (+2)
    71 - Warwolf Belt (+3)

    Legs
    58 - Gallant Breeches (+2)
    68 - Iron Ram Hose (+4)
    70 - Hydra Brayette (+6)
    73 - Adaman Cuisses (+3)/Gem Cuisses (+4)
    74 - Gallant Breeches +1 (+2)
    75 - Valor Breeches (+3)
    75 - Valor Breeches +1 (+4)

    Feet
    68 - Iron Ram Greaves (+3)
    71 - Valor Leggings (+1)
    73 - Adaman Sabatons (+1)/Gem Sabatons (+2)
    74 - Heroic Boots (+1)/+1 (+2)
    75 - Askar Gambieras (+2)
    75 - Valor Leggins +1 (+2)



    FOOD
    Food is one of the things that separates the hardcore from the casual players. That may seem harsh, but the effects food has on the course of a battle can be staggering. Specifically, food can either aid the offense abilities of a PLD or the defensive abilities of a PLD. As a DD guide, this guide will focus on the offensive boosts of food.

    Meat
    Meat adds greatly to STR and Attack and is often preferred by DDs assuming Accuracy requirements have been met.

    Rarab Meatball - HP +10, STR +2, VIT +2, INT -1, Attack +30% (Cap: 20@66)
    Bunny Ball - HP +10, STR +2, VIT +2, INT -1, Attack +30% (Cap: 25@83)
    Roast Mutton - STR +3, INT -1, Attack +27% (Cap: 30@111)
    Juicy Mutton - STR +3, INT -1, Attack +27% (Cap: 35@129)
    Meat Jerky - STR +3, INT -1, Attack +22% (Cap: 30@136)
    Meat Mithkabob - STR +5, AGI +1, INT -1, Attack +22% (Cap: 60@272)
    Meat Chiefkabob - STR +5, AGI +1, INT -2, Attack +22% (Cap: 65@295)
    Royal Omelette - STR +5, DEX +2, INT -3, MND +4, Attack +22% (Cap: 65@295), Ranged Attack +22% (Cap: 65@295)
    Royal Omelette (Elvaan) - HP +20, MP +20, STR +6, DEX +2, INT -2, MND +5, CHR +4, Attack +22% (Cap: 80@363), R. Attack +22% (Cap: 80@363)
    Rabbit Pie - STR +5, VIT +5, INT -2, Attack +25% (Cap: 100@400), R. Attack +25% (Cap: 100@400), Defense +25% (Cap: 100@400)

    Seafood
    Seafood (primarily sushi) generally adds to Accuracy. Some sushi also adds offensive or defensive stats. Generally, Sushi shouldn't be used until the 40s.
    Crab Sushi: VIT +1, Accuracy +13%, DEF +10
    Crab Sushi +1: VIT +2, Accuracy +14%, DEF +15
    Dorado Sushi: DEX +5, Accuracy +15%, R. Accuracy +15%, Enmity +3
    Sole Sushi: HP +20, STR +5, DEX +6, Accuracy +15%, R. Accuracy +15%
    Bream Sushi: DEX +6, VIT +5, Accuracy +16%, R. Accuracy +16%
    Dorado Sushi +1: DEX +5, Accuracy +16%, R. Accuracy +16%, Enmity +3
    Sole Sushi: HP +20, STR +5, DEX +6, Accuracy +16%, R. Accuracy +16%
    Bream Sushi +1: DEX +6, VIT +5, Accuracy +17%, R. Accuracy +17%
    Tentacle Sushi: HP +20, DEX +3, AGI +3, MND -1, Accuracy +19%, R. Accuracy +19%
    Tentacle Sushi: HP +20, DEX +3, AGI +3, MND -1, Accuracy +19%, R. Accuracy +19%

    Bread and Rice
    Breads are a category that is somewhat unique in that it contains food that enhances several categories. Some enhance offense, some enhance defense, and some do both.
    Carbonara: HP +14%, MP +10, STR +4, VIT +2, INT -3, Attack +18% (Cap: 65@361)
    Carbonara: HP +14%, MP +10, STR +4, VIT +2, INT -3, Attack +18% (Cap: 70@388)
    Coeurl Sub: MP +10, STR +5, AGI +1, INT -1, Attack +20% (Cap: 75@375), hHP +1
    Coeurl Sub: MP +15, STR +5, AGI +1, INT -1, Attack +22% (Cap: 80@3363), hHP +1
    Marinara Pizza: HP +20, Attack +20% (Cap: 50@250), Accuracy +10%
    Marinara Pizza +1: HP +25, Attack +21% (Cap: 55@261), Accuracy +11%

    Edited, Mar 25th 2009 11:07pm by Dracoth

    Edited, Dec 4th 2009 12:29am by Dracoth

    Edited, Feb 6th 2010 8:27pm by Dracoth
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #5 Jan 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    V. THE PARTY

    FFXI is built around the concept of team work and mutual cooperation. Events such as Besieged and Campaign are supposed to help foster this, but, ultimately, the first taste of cooperation most players receive is in an Experience Points party. The roles of jobs in an XP party vary based on the level of the party, but there are some givens.

    Most experience parties from 10-72 have one of the following formats:

    TANK DD DD SUPPORT/DD SUPPORT SUPPORT (usually mages)
    TANK DD DD DD DD SUP
    TANK COTANK DD DD SUP SUP

    Each setup has advantages and disadvantages depending on mob. However, experience is necessary to determine which setup will work on which mobs at which level range. The rest of this section will discuss the roles different jobs play in the party and how they can be used to augment DD PLD.

    THE DD'S
    Several jobs fall in to this category. They all have one thing in common: dealing damage in an attempt to bring the mob down quickly. A good DD is a great asset to the party.

    WAR
  • Offensive capabilities come early
  • Shield Break - Great addition to ANY party
  • May tank better at certain level ranges/mobs (Mandragoras in the Jungles) - it's a great time to learn cotanking!
  • Great for a SATA partner 30+ if coupled with a THF

  • MNK
  • Very good DoT
  • Works well for a SATA partner but lacks the defense of other DD jobs

  • THF
  • Trick Attack adds an invaluable tool for cementing hate on the tank
  • DoT can be poor to excellent, depending on the THF

  • BST
  • Usually don't party, but when they do, a correctly geared BST can be a great addition to DoT
  • Very useful in handling links

  • DRK
  • Excellent spike damage with good DoT as well
  • Some Absorb line spells can help the whole party
  • VERY limited abilties to heal himself
  • The tools a DRK uses can pull extraordinary amounts of hate

  • PLD
  • VERY rare for this to happen - don't build for it
  • Can be used to learn cotanking skills - outside of this, another DD would aid more to the death of the mob than two PLDs

  • RNG
  • Strong DoT
  • Good spike damage when needed
  • Is a glass cannon and can't handle hate for too long

  • DRG
  • Excellent DoT near the beginning of the game
  • Excels on killing things weak to piercing
  • Can function as a healer with the right support jobs without losing too much damage

  • SAM
  • Strong Weapon Skills, particularly later in the game
  • Ability to Skill Chain with almost anyone
  • Great back up tank or co tank, as the situation demands

  • NIN
  • Good back up tank or co tank
  • Can build for fairly aggressive DD in the right circumstances
  • Has great enfeebling ability
  • For Pick Up Groups, probably best not to party with NINs - there can be a lack of tanks at times

  • BLU
  • Head **** can help reduce the number of attack rounds coming at the tank
  • Has strong DD spells
  • Decent - good DoT depending on the BLU
  • Can double as a healer if given prep time
  • Has unique enfeebles

  • BLM
  • Although also a support, a BLM gets the best use by nuking the mobs
  • Has decent enfeebles/DoT spells
  • In ToAU areas (55+), most BLM aren't invited to parties because of their dependence on MP and mobs (colibri) which have the ability to "reflect" spells back upon the party



  • THE SUPPORT
    A tank is can only be so good on his own. Without the support of other characters, he won't be able to stand long. While DDs focus on dealing damage to kill the mob, Support focuses on healing, buffing, and enfeebling to aid the party in the same goal. Good support can make a party just as bad support can break it.

    RDM
  • Excellent buffing and healing support
  • Excellent enfeebling
  • Refresh allows every MP dependent member to get MP back at an accelerated rate - strongly recommended to have a RDM at 41+
  • Excellent MP management tools

  • WHM
  • Excellent healing support
  • Decent enfeebling

  • BRD
  • Excellent buffs/debuffs
  • Gains MP Refresh songs earlier than RDM gets refresh. Stacks with refresh, as well.
  • Grab one when you can but be mindful of positions
  • A DD PLD should attempt to get most of the same songs as the DDs. One Ballad is great, but Min/Mad will help increase the DD potential of the PLD

  • SMN
  • Good hybrid role - has excellent party buffs
  • DD potential can be ok through avatars but is limited
  • Makes a great second healer
  • Lacks Cure IV and other emergency cures

  • COR
  • Party Buffs and DD potential
  • DD can be costly - find and recognize the good ones
  • Be mindful of positions and take the same considerations as if he were a BRD

  • PUP
  • Honestly, PUP is underutilized by parties: The automotan can give extremely good DoT OR can help with status effects and curing
  • The PUP herself has decent DoT and does provide to a party
  • Very self-sustaining

  • DNC
  • Hybrid Support/DD again
  • Unique Buffs for the party (hp/mp back from dealing damage, weapon haste, etc)
  • Unique Debuffs for the mobs (evasion down/attack down/magic defense down)
  • Can provide Aspir Samba were appropriate - usually ruled out by the other sambas, but it can provide even more MP for the front line

  • SCH
  • Excellent healing ability
  • Good enfeebling ability
  • Sublimation allows for good MP management and recovery
  • Can function in either DD or healing roles
  • Has a unique access to AoE buffs


  • What you put in your party is determined by what jobs are available. Having a support job capable of healing is a plus. Having another support job capable of boosting the party's performance is another. And, because a PLD thrives off using his MP, having a means of recovering that MP quickly is also a huge plus. The most important thing you can remember is to recognize those you party with who are good at what they do and continue to find opportunities and reasons to party with them in the future.


    The Power Leveler
    Many people have mixed views on Power Levelers (PL). On the one hand, they allow party setups that wouldn't other wise work the ability to work. A 5xDD party doesn't always work outside of merit levels. It also allows for faster XP as less time is needed for mp recovery.

    On the flip side, a PL can cause as much damage as good. A new player needs the opportunity to grow and learn. A PL removes some of that element of risk. A good player can over come this with little difficulty, but that isn't true of every player in the game.

    In addition, a PL that completely replaces roles in a party hurts players playing those roles. If the PL tanks, the PLD will find himself forced into a DD mode and will lack the skill ups in Shield Skill that make the PLD what he is. WHMs also find that they grow bored as the general melee capability of a WHM is lacking in lower levels. Faster XP can also hurt a party's DDs as they'll have less time in a level to gain skill ups. Some weapons are hurt more by this than others.

    Whether you play in a party that PLs or not is up to you, but be aware of the draw backs.



    Level Sync
    Level sync is a wonderful tool in the game. The ability to put every member of the party at a certain level allows for more freedom in building parties. It also allows friends of every level to party together.

    But, as good as level sync is, it also has its draw backs. Skill is capped at the level synced to. This means that if a player syncs below his level and gains a few levels, he can quickly find himself in a position of being 15 or more points behind his cap. Then, he won't perform as well at his actual level and might possibly be lacking weapon skills and other benefits from a higher skill.

    Use this tool with caution. Take the parties that are promising. But, don't sync so much that you grow far behind in skills.

    Edited, Mar 7th 2009 12:49pm by Dracoth
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #6 Jan 30 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    VI. CAMPS AND MOBS
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #7 Jan 30 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    VII. MISSIONS
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #8 Jan 30 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    VIII. END GAME
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #9 Jan 30 2009 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
    ***
    2,720 posts
    IX. RESERVED
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #10 Feb 02 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
    **
    475 posts
    The detail is great, but honestly, it's way too long. I don't know how willing you'd be to cut it down, but I think the guide would benefit from being concise in the places that aren't really DD-specific. That way, the reader isn't bored by the time they get through the intro, and they'll actually read the meat of the guide.

    Things to consider:
  • since every section is in a new post, link to them at the very beginning.
  • We don't need a whole paragraph on each job ability. Just a brief mention of situational usage. And don't mention sh*t like "due to some updates in the past, this ability is much improved." Those of us that saw the update love the new system. Those of us that didn't, don't care what the ability USED to do.
  • You're putting too much emphasis on "this is when turtle would work better." I say this because I know you well enough to know that that's bullsh*t. You don't believe that. And if I'm confused and you do believe that, the entire FFXI playerbase knows when to use turtle PLD, so you don't need to include it in a DD PLD guide. Don't advocate for what the guide is trying to debunk.
  • I didn't read everything about subjobs. First impression: don't include every sub. No one's gonna read that sh*t. While it may be good just to get a wide variety of information all in one place, including sh*t like /bst and /whm takes away from the emphasis of the post. /war and /nin are a DD PLD's staples, with a few others seeing some usage, but including very much more than that turns very quickly into tl;dr.

  • Great start. I'll find more to pick apart, and I'd be happy to hear reasons why you aren't going to make the changes I suggest, too. If your reasons are good, then I can leave you alone about it :-P

    Edit: Reading over the sections you haven't written yet, and it looks to be a great format.

    Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:30pm by Illusitaru

    Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:35pm by Illusitaru

    Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:38pm by Illusitaru
    ____________________________
    Illusio - Caitsith

    Gandhi wrote:
    A man is but the product of his thoughts; what he thinks, he becomes.
    #11 Feb 02 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
    Sage
    *
    126 posts
    /agree with Illus

    great effort so far, but it seems more like a beginner's guide to pld than anything else ^^ I know you haven't got on to the juicy bits yet (but you've still written a mountain O.o).
    I reckon that you can assume that people checking out your guide already have experience with pld, probably up to the 40s or 50s, so you don't need to spell the job out for them. I know we want to advocate DD Pld to all levels of players (including the beginning PLDs and (especially) the non-PLDs) but the basics of the job can be found in other stickies and don't really need covering :)

    Only cover things that have core relevance to the DD-style. Additional info and hugely situational issues can be held back for more "advanced/extended discussion".

    Stuff that the jury is still out on (e.g. how /dnc can be made effective) is also just better to leave out entirely. This is a guide, not an everything-you-need-to-know-about-pld-ever-including-our-history-of-the-last-eight-years-oh-where-has-my-life-gone! thread :)

    Oh - and one small error I found:

    Quote:
    Wings of the Goddess introduced Dancer, the only job besides PLD with a Provoke like job ability (i.e., intended to pull the attention of the mob as it's primary purpose).


    I think you mean "besides WAR".
    ____________________________
    Yawa - Carbuncle - "Real" jobs: 75BRD 75PLD - But secretly BST :D hohoho!
    #12 Feb 02 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
    ***
    1,551 posts
    Dnc sub gives you eva/def down steps, provoke/gravity flourishes, sneak+invis jig, drain1+2/aspir1 samba, and curing1+2/healing/divine (cure2-3, incomplete erase+na, curaga) waltzes.

    Its main use as a sub for everyone is solo/small pt play as everyone can instantly be able to cure others using their tp instead of relying on possibly small mp pools. Tanking with it as pld/dnc isn't terribly hard but needs good acc to keep up with steps+flourishes and tp gaining for curing and, if no dnc main in pt, sambas. Works best against mobs that wipe your tp often, like colibri, since you won't get to ws often against them before meriting. I'd consider this sub a lot more defensive then any other since you ultimately sacrifice your tp to keep yourself and your pt alive.

    While you did title this as simply "Tanking with DD Gear - A Guide," you've shown a bit more of pld's options for play in your general info. If anything that could go further in an attempt to replace some older stickied guides by complimenting your guide with some of their info and links. A bigger, grander thread then just DD gear tanking! Haha, maybe that wasn't your goal! :p

    But you've got quite a lot to fill in for those other parts. Take your time. We'll be here to help you.

    ~Ori

    Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 9:52pm by orinthia
    #13 Feb 02 2009 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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    I think a DD-tanking guide for PLD is a good idea, but it needs to be consise if it's going to be useful.

    Suggestions:

    This sort of guide wouldn't be necessary if people didn't come to PLD with preconceived ideas about how PLD works as a tank. I would start there.

    Turtle Tanking Concept

    1. Reduce damage taken (significantly) via high defense and vitality.

    2. Block damage with shield.

    3. Less damage taken = less hate loss.

    Unfortunately, 1 & 3 don't seem to work. If they did, gearing for def/VIT would be an effective stategy. IMO, this is the first point you should make. You should back this up with evidence.

    For the first point, fight some XP level mobs and see how much damage you take, average per mob or per hit or both. Don't even worry about gear. Use no food for a while and then use a def food for a while. A hard number should be worth a thousand vague testimonials.

    For the third point, link to Kaeko's research and show that you have no hope of maintaining a non-zero CE as a blood tank. Point out that VE is unaffected by taking damage. In practice, as a blood tank, your hate level is not impacted by taking more or less damage.

    Point out that shield blocks are what makes PLD a good tank.

    DD-Tank Alternative

    Once you've shattered preconceptions, you can push alternatives. Be as enthusiastic as you like, but don't mislead. If a PLD raises his damage output by 200% that probably means he went from 5% of your party's damage to 15%. Don't make it sound better than it actually is. Acknowledge that there comes a point where you want to replace your Turtle PLD not with a DD PLD but with a WAR or SAM or MNK or other DDer and forgo a tank altogether.
    #14 Feb 03 2009 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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    Thanks for the advice.

    I'll admit to one thing - I'm incredibly verbose. It's why I thought about doing most of this in a word document to start from and then work from there, but I decided to get everything out. Once it was out, I was going to look it over. You've all offered some strong suggestions, and they'll definitely be included. Thanks for that.

    Specific points: I think each subjob should be considered as to what it gives. However, it's definitely very verbose. MANY of these jobs could be grouped together with a simple note saying that they add nothing of relevance to the PLD and then left like that. The big DD subs, though, I think still need their own subsections, so I'll probably leave them as sections and just tear back the information found inside. (Big ones classified as /WAR, /NIN, and /RDM - even /BLU and /DRK are more specialized as end game subs).

    For /DNC in particular, I'll admit, I left out the steps. I'm not sure why there because I have them listed in my notes. I also left out Gravity because the flourish that should be most often used is Animated Flourish. This makes it less likely that there will be finishing moves to spend on Gravity because they should be spent trying to keep the mobs attention. I still feel that DD PLD benefits /DNC a LOT more than /DNC benefits DD PLD. But, that's opinion.

    Once I have most of it put together, I'll put links in to the different pieces. I'll also be adding color so it isn't such a monstrous white piece of literature.

    The first post is supposed to be the point where I "shatter" old conceptions, but it should still be pointed out that DD PLD DOES have situations where it shouldn't be used.

    I hadn't actually thought to link to previous guides, but that really is a good idea. It's not so much that I want to replace previous guides as that most guides are older and haven't been updated as our knowledge has expanded.

    And thanks for catching the error - I'll get that corrected right away. Can't believe I typed that since I did, in fact, mean WAR, not PLD.
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    #15 Feb 03 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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    This part under DNC:
    Quote:
    Steps allow the PLD to inflict various status effects on the opponent (defense down, slow, magic def down)
    is a little misleading. You can only get quick and box step from sub, which give the mob eva down and def down respectively. In no way can dnc slow a mob and lowering magic resistance is reserved for dnc main (stutter step, lv40 dnc).

    Also, animated flourish (voke) is 20dnc, meaning you'd get it as a 40pld/dnc. Before then you'd only have drain samba 1 (10pld/dnc) and curing waltz 1 (30pld/dnc). So this sub really starts at lv40 unless you solo or small group heh.

    Just little nitpicks I forgot to mention in my previous post. Do continue though to write how you feel like writing it. While it might seem too much to others it'll probably be a benefit to some as it gives a more mental note on its possible use or disuse.

    ~Ori
    #16 Feb 03 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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    Thank you for the fix... I was mostly going off memory at that point and, you're exactly right, only DNC main gets the magic def down step. I'll update that when I get home from work tonight and can take more time to look at it.

    Honestly, I have no problem being verbose. I should probably have a section right at the start that includes a tl; dr if I wanted to do that. Or an alternate thread entirely. We'll see - I'd rather wait until I was mostly finished before making either of those decisions.
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    #17 Feb 03 2009 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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    Great start, some quick revisions though.

    Quote:
    Wings of the Goddess introduced Dancer, the only job besides PLD with a Provoke like job ability (i.e., intended to pull the attention of the mob as it's primary purpose)


    Probably just semantics, but seems to ignore the actual JA "Provoke" and WAR. I'd reword it.

    Quote:
    Steps allow the PLD to inflict various status effects on the opponent (defense down, slow, magic def down)


    /DNC never gets stutter step for Magic Def Down. =(

    Keep up the good work though. I went DD from 1-75, mostly influenced by some of the work you've done (And changed the minds of quite a few friends and LS members)... and don't think I could have done it any other way. Thank you.
    #18 Feb 07 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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    TP EQ added. It's just general information now. Is the conciseness of it better than the earlier posts or should I elaborate on pieces more?
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    #19 Feb 07 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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    It's really hard for me to think about gear suggestions because there's so many ways to do it.
    That being said: Yes, the conciseness is good. And yes, some pieces could use a little bit of discussion. You don't want to explain every single piece, but some contested or misunderstood pieces will want some attention.


  • Mighty rings, best option till 40. For all practical purposes (if you're not heavily overcamping), Venerer Ring will never be as good as a Mighty Ring, considering the attack and accuracy values you'll have prior to Woodsman/Snipers.
  • Tiger Stole (not included) is going to be better than spike necklace until ~175 attack.
  • Company Fleuret (not included) is going to be better than Espadon even without the piercing bonus.
  • Happy Edd >>> Happy Egg. Very silly typo :P
  • IMO, Beetle Earring +1 is way more mandatory than Bone Earrings because you'll use them until 55.
  • Your Askar Zuccheto has some formatting issues... an extra orange tag.
  • Make a mention that Life Belt is going to be better than Swift Belt until you can reach about 25% haste total, generally.
  • Your Wonder Mitts might want a (Taru) tag.
  • I might make Bastokan (Republic) Subligar a mandatory item, or make the listed option the HQ version? Either way, it's a ridiculously good piece of DD gear.


  • Those are the things that I noticed. Overall, it's great. I think it's got the (almost) perfect blend of options and ... stuff that are actually upgrades.

    Edited, Feb 7th 2009 4:18pm by Illusitaru

    Edited, Feb 7th 2009 4:29pm by Illusitaru

    Edited, Feb 7th 2009 4:30pm by Illusitaru
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    #20 Feb 07 2009 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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    On subjobs:

    /nin is viable from 50ish on, when you're in more burn style parties. Personally I didn't find it getting really strong until around 59-61, but it definitely worked when a static tank wasn't needed the entire fight.

    /sam is annoying to play due to the cast time penalties with hasso and seigan; I find these so significant that I think you should definitely mention them.
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    #21 Feb 07 2009 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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    Added relevant information and updated the EQ list a little bit. I'll get to more of this soon. Next up: enmity gear and usage in a DD build.
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    #22 Feb 07 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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    I suggest that Attar of Roses be added to the Ammo slot. It can be randomly obtained via the brown treasure casket drop in Konschtat Highlands. It's a great option for players without the Egg, and HP+8 gives you more HP than HP+1% at low levels, mostly because your HP around lv11 is about 100+, as such, the Egg only gives you 1HP. The trade-off is the lack of VIT+1 that the Egg offers.

    By the way, the gear section helps a ton. Thanks and looking forward to the other sections!
    #23 Feb 07 2009 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
    Fourth Division Gauntlets aren't in there? 5ACC on the hands at level 55 and they are cheap off the AH . . . **** i plan on using them till dusk and think pretty much every melee should.
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    #24 Feb 08 2009 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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    Personally I'd also like to see some specific gear sets similar to the warrior's ******* sticky kinda like a your-gear-should-be-at-least-this-good and you can build from there kinda as a general guideline.

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    #25 Feb 08 2009 at 7:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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    The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
    Fourth Division Gauntlets aren't in there? 5ACC on the hands at level 55 and they are cheap off the AH . . . **** i plan on using them till dusk and think pretty much every melee should.


    Yup, Fourth Division Gauntlets aren't on there and I figured out why they aren't on there... I skipped over them when looking at Allakhazam's PLD equipment list. Stupid move, too. I printed it off and used it as my reference, trying to make sure I included pieces as I was looking for them. Weird, though... I should have caught them, considering I put a few other pieces on the list and they really are as good as you say.

    Attar of Roses... I was torn on it, but you're exactly right. In fact, I think it actually beats out the happy egg in terms of CE... I'll do some calculations and include that info when I get the chance - just have a couple of minutes to get this updated before I move on.

    As for comparing this to Lolgaxe's incredible ******* - I kinda based it off that, but I'm not going to follow his format. He used multiple pages for varying levels. There's LOTS of times where there are large stretches that a PLD doesn't change. Mostly because of a lack of better options and partly because some of the gear is just that good.

    Edit: And rereading what you're talking about... Prior to 75, there's no need to consider different sets. Once I get more time, I'm going to discuss the enmity gear a player should have, and then the other sets as they pertain to end game. This isn't quite finished yet, either.

    Edited, Feb 8th 2009 8:16am by Dracoth
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    #26 Feb 08 2009 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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    Illusitaru wrote:

  • Company Fleuret (not included) is going to be better than Espadon even without the piercing bonus.


  • Could you please explain this? Alla/Wiki don't clearly state what the Company Fleuret bonus is/how it works... I've actually read that it is *not* the same as that on the Company Sword. Also, shouldn't we compare it to the Espadon +1?
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    #27 Feb 08 2009 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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    It's explained in this thread, which I'll link to at some point. I'm going to add all sorts of relevant links when I get the majority of the guide up.
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    #28 Feb 08 2009 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Kinematics explained it here
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    #29 Feb 11 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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    Very nice guide. As someone who leveled as PLD/NIN, I was glad to see a bit about it being useful in burn parties and the like.

    My only bone to pick with you is that you have a lot of things listed as "luxury" when they're not. I mean, Optical Hat, luxury? Come on. It's a pain in the *** to get, but, it's not a luxury piece.
    #30 Feb 11 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
    I think luisant body deserves a luxury note, not 100% sure the buffs are worth the - EVA but I'm using it and all my pt's are non-stop chain 5's without me ever losing hate even though I only used voke at start lol


    Anyway main reason I got it is cause . . .well . . . have you seen it? SEXAY and it has useful stats . .. that just screams luxury to me!

    Also I would call the gothic set luxury as well . . . I got them but it was a royal pain in my ***, I literally spent over 24 game hours in xarc trying to get the hands . . . I got 8 of those lumbers for tati shield and I only spent a fraction of my time killing gigas.
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    #31 Feb 11 2009 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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    Optical Hat being luxury is a ***** up... I cut and paste an earlier code for the [i] and missed that is was orange. That will be fixed.

    Gothic Gauntlets are more of an "oh neat" upgrade piece, but yeah, I should mark them as Luxury.

    I thought long and hard about the Luisant. Notice I tossed a lot on there. The deciding factor was that Allah didn't list it as having any defense (which isn't right), and I was using printed sheets off the PLD EQ page... I didn't think the stats on it were worth giving up THAT much defense. I mean, really, the Hauby has only 7 less than the Gallant, so it's not as noticable. But, 30 at that level would be. I'll add it in when I get the chance.
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    #32 Mar 07 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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    Updated Equipment section to include enmity gear and food discussion.

    Updated Section II as well. Combined some subjobs together and tried to reduce the WoT that it is.

    Also, wrote the party section. I hope the format of it looks better and it's more concise than the earlier sections. I might very well go back and touch them up to look like this one if it works. I think having all the information is great, but it takes a lot of dedication to get through it all.
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    #33 Mar 09 2009 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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    In my opinion , the homam leg, feet and hand pieces should not be considered luxury. When I think of luxury I think of items like hades earring +1 or Cerberus mantle +1. Items that you upgrade at the very end of things when you have established every other piece that is essential to bettering your pld, these pieces generally offer a very small amount of % in performance over the piece you are upgrading. Every pld should strive to upgrade their gear for homam(hands,legs, and feet).

    I know one would say, well at 73, items like that would seem luxury to someone first starting off. However this guide can be aimed for new people aswell as old players. Lets face it, old players are still turtle tanking, and will always continue to, hence why guides like these have to be made for new and old.

    A few things that Id hope to see would be: (I know its endgame related)

    /rdm /drk /nin subs for kiting. I think most plds should try one of the following. /nin to start off (call it training wheels) and get use to not having provoke. Although /rdm /drk would be far easier to hold hate. I think the point is to remove the crutch that is provoke. People rely on it far too much without realizing its not very reliable when you see how it works.

    Sword + shield > staff while kiting. The emnity you can have added on to you while kiting can help. I had this debate a long time ago, trying to explain that you dont kite with a shield for defense(as in for blocks) but for the extra emnity you can recieve from it. Then there was the whole "but with a staff if you get hit you can reduce the damage you take!" "but youll be /nin so you wont be taking any...." and ya that conversation fell on deaf ears....

    Anyhow just suggestions. Plds should know that there are other branches out there and they should atleast try them. And providing some ideas on how could really benefit any new pld.
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    #34 Mar 09 2009 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
    I really think you should cut down the general section, it should be more focused on the DD style, we all know what undead killer does and lets face it, people are intimidated easily by GREAT WALLS OF TEXT. Also as mentioned I do not think it is necisary to discuss EVERY subjob, just the ones related to topic. We have a /nin tanking guide and other guides for general info this should be focused on DD pld style.
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    #35 Mar 10 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Default
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    I would say the Askar Korazin is a bit easier to get than either the Ares' Cuirass or Avalon Breastplate. You may want to include it.

    At 60, I'd also say that the Iron Ram Shield is pretty much required. Not that expensive in either gil or Notes.

    Edit: Noticed the Koenig Shield was included in the enmity section.



    Edited, Mar 10th 2009 9:00am by AriesMCMLXXIII
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    #36 Mar 10 2009 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    I would say the Askar Korazin is a bit easier to get than either the Ares' Cuirass or Avalon Breastplate.

    Easy to get and worth using aren't the same thing.
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    #37AriesMCMLXXIII, Posted: Mar 11 2009 at 7:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Explain. Not everyone has x million gil just lying about to buy the body armor I mentioned (Imperial Wootz Ingots in the case of the Ares' Cuirass). Nor does everyone have the connections or desire to join an HNMLS to fight Sandworm NMs or join a Salvage LS only to have to wait an eternity for that one last piece to drop.
    #38 Mar 11 2009 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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    Because you can just drop 200k~ for a much better piece, haubergeon.
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    #39 Mar 11 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
    To emphasize the point even my drk with full scythe merits and respectable gear cannot justify using askar body over haub on anything colbri or harder except when I have diabolic eye or soul eater up (20ACC granted) or if I'm getting madrigal or hunters roll (which would tick me off on colbri because I don't have enough pure stk/atk gear to replace that much ACC without losing haste). The fact that haub gives such a significant boost to both atk and acc make it very hard to beat as a tp piece or multy hit ws piece for all the jobs that can use it. Haub is really THAT good.
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    #40 Mar 11 2009 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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    AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
    Illusitaru wrote:
    Quote:
    I would say the Askar Korazin is a bit easier to get than either the Ares' Cuirass or Avalon Breastplate.

    Easy to get and worth using aren't the same thing.


    Explain. Not everyone has x million gil just lying about to buy the body armor I mentioned (Imperial Wootz Ingots in the case of the Ares' Cuirass). Nor does everyone have the connections or desire to join an HNMLS to fight Sandworm NMs or join a Salvage LS only to have to wait an eternity for that one last piece to drop.

    It seems rather unfair not to list the Askar Korazin among the others because it can be acquired without going broke or enslaving oneself to an endgame LS.


    Askar Korazin won't ever be included except as a "What pieces you shouldn't get." DRKs, SAMs, and WARs don't want it. We don't either. The Haubergeon is a much better investment, as has been pointed out. In fact, for both Avalon and Ares', it's more of a side grade than an upgrade over Haubergeon. I really just want the Ares because I like the look and I like having the option of a body only Refresh that doesn't hurt my DD. I'll still sport my Hauby +1 most of the time.
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    #41 Mar 12 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Default
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    Maybe you'd like to tell the other 4 people in my Nyzul Isle group--2 Samurai, a Warrior, and a Dark Knight--that the Korazins we fought hard for are so inferior that we need to hang our heads in shame. I highly doubt any of them will blink an eye to any recriminations you send their way.

    You may have your own standards, but my point still stands. Neither you nor Illusitaru have made any concrete argument against it. I've only read increasingly desperate justifications for spending large amounts of gil as opposed to getting a small group together and participating in a casual event (which may be the source of your hostility towards my suggestion).

    Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:39am by AriesMCMLXXIII
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    #42 Mar 12 2009 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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    AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
    Maybe you'd like to tell the other 4 people in my Nyzul Isle group--2 Samurai, a Warrior, and a Dark Knight--that the Korazins we fought hard for are so inferior that we need to hang our heads in shame. I highly doubt any of them will blink an eye to any recriminations you send their way.

    You may have your own standards, but my point still stands. Neither you nor Illusitaru have made any concrete argument against it. I've only read increasingly desperate justifications for spending large amounts of gil as opposed to getting a small group together and participating in a casual event (which may be the source of your hostility towards my suggestion).

    I know if I didnt correct Dracoths post, it would blow up wrongly. First off, Askar Korazins is only wanted by wars,drs and sams because the store tp on the body pieces will give them 1 less swing to WS. So him saying the body piece isnt wanted wasnt entirely true, or wrong either. Drg is probably the only job that can get away with it without being too gimp. However if its not pushing you 1 less swing to 100tp, dont settle with it.

    As far as that, its useless compared to hauby. The main reason is basically accuracy. It has no accuracy. Accuracy is bread and butter to a pld. Most plds go out of their way to get Joytoy, so the double attack from the body gets even less useful than it already is. I say less useful, because DA +2% will not out parse 12-13 Accuracy that hauby is giving you(15 if +1). Paladin will be benefiting from the accuracy easily. Able to gear haste in other spots for it.

    Btw, how good is hauby? well lets put it into your gear. Atm, if we put you in the lower end of accuracy camps, ie bird camp. You barely make the amount of acc needed to eat meats(even if you cant hold on to the food due to it being eaten its a good mark to know you dont need assistance of accuracy outside of your gear/traits/JAs) You are sitting at 81%. I wont include hasso benefits as youll want to ditch that potent belt for swift belt eventually. And it will eventually just set you back up to where you were, if not at barely 80%. Having hauby is obviously going to be more advantageous for you right now. Still not convinced? Go to mamool camps and your acc wont cut it.

    If your reasoning is eating pizza,sushi, or bard acc songs, than you are doing it very wrong. You are gimping yourself, and then gimping yourself even more to ungimp you, leaving you still as a gimp.

    Take no offense to this, this is just to help you understand why something is better than the other piece. Nothing helps more when that said piece can even better your performance. The accuracy on hauby for your sam alone, will boost you up by atleast 4~5%. DA+2% wont even come close to that.

    Compare that to your pld, and your pld is suffering with about 58% hit rate. Thats on exp mobs, HNM mobs, atleast you wont be giving them tp...

    This is all if you even have sam or pld fully merited in weapons, ie great katana and sword, if you dont, you really will be hurting in accuracy.


    Now you know why hauby is so awesome. It provides you with everything you need, without gimping you in any other way, other than looks probably.
    ____________________________
    SERVER: IFRIT
    WHM/BRD: Triangulum
    PLD
    MNK
    SAM
    BLM
    DRK

    #43AriesMCMLXXIII, Posted: Mar 12 2009 at 6:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your argument is well put and would have poked many holes in my argument were Paladin my first job to 75. However, what you may have missed in my profile is the fact that I had previously placed 5 Sword merits (+10 Attack, +10 Accuracy) to cover any accuracy issues that would have cropped up--in other words, I had the vital stats of the Haubergeon 9 levels before I could wear the actual item on PLD. Without the off-putting penalties, I might add.
    #44 Mar 12 2009 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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    712 posts
    AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
    Your argument is well put and would have poked many holes in my argument were Paladin my first job to 75. However, what you may have missed in my profile is the fact that I had previously placed 5 Sword merits (+10 Attack, +10 Accuracy) to cover any accuracy issues that would have cropped up--in other words, I had the vital stats of the Haubergeon 9 levels before I could wear the actual item on PLD. Without the off-putting penalties, I might add.

    In addition to that, the 12.5 accuracy that I may be missing can easily be made up in 2 slots as I have a Potent Belt and Ecphoria Ring--which I use on Samurai as well--on hand should the need arise (your example of Mamool Ja would be such a case, though I haven't felt compelled to look for a merit party in months thanks to Campaign).

    At the time I had the Haubergeon, I only used it for Weapon Skills on PLD and NIN and only on SAM full-time because I had nothing else to wear before the Korazin dropped to me. Because I prefer to use /DRG on SAM, I had no real need for the Haubergeon.

    Again, your point is well taken and gives me reason to not argue my point so vehemently as mine is a singular case. I must, however, remain firm on the idea that all viable options should be presented without regard to one's superiority to another's.

    Well a few things to consider. When I made the calculations, I already calculated you with full merits on sword and great katana. Therefore if you dont have them fully merited, the calculations I gave you are even lower. I also calulated you with /drg which gives you about +10 more acc. All this is assumed in the 81%, add full timing hasso for 86%. I dont usually include it as full timing hasso can not always be the case depending on pt setup.

    There was another thread about what would be best for a pld to TP in. this is what was posted-
    TP:
    Main: Joyeuse
    Sub: Justice Sword
    Ammo: Virtue Stone
    Head: Askar
    Neck: PCC
    Ear: Suppa
    Ear: Brutal
    Body: Hauby+1
    Hands: Dusk +1
    Ring: Sniper's +1
    Ring: Sniper's +1
    Back: Cerb +1
    Waist: Speed Belt
    Legs: Homam
    Feet: Homam

    As you can see this setup has a lot of accuracy, compare it with your pld's setup and you will see that its not only offering a good amount of accuracy but also haste. Funny enough, even with all this accuracy, its still lacking the required minimum to pass in most exp camps. In my personally opinion, Id swap out the askar head for ares, and PCC for ancient torque.

    I know these pieces are pieces that are not easy to come by, but this is just an example of how heavy pld needs to be in acc. Actually this how heavy in acc any dual wielding job needs to be.

    As far as you sam goes, Im not saying askar is a bad piece, its not, but its become a little more over rated than it should be. And imo , its because of how over powering hauby can be. Yes, hauby is and always will be that godly for any job that cant wear something better. Askar looks better and has the str/att of hauby to make it look just as good, while not having accuracy(this is the big negative that it has, and will be the deciding factor) it offers store tp, and a small amount of DA.

    No one is saying that Askar is a bad piece, however, if you are lacking accuracy, which imo you are, than it not having accuracy is what is hurting you. Right now you are getting by with accuracy, if you can maintain hasso up always, you will have about 86% accuracy. But if I were you, Id try to do w/e you could to upgrade your belt from potent to swift(your pld will thank you aswell). Right now you have about 16% haste. Having a bit more acc would allow you to drop pieces for even more accuracy. Swift for potent, maybe dusk for askar, fumas for askar(the str isnt helping while you swing). Already you have gained 8% more haste. Losing only 8 accuracy, had you had hauby youd lose nothing and actually still have about 5 extra accuracy, with 8% more haste.

    24% +5 more acc to your setup sounds pretty hot no? All you lost was 6str and 2 DA%, you will see that what you have gained is far more potent and powerful than str which does almost nothing for you while you swing and a small amount of DA which wont touch 7~8% haste and 5 more acc.

    Again this is just examples of other possibilities for your sam, and even pld. This is not the only way or right way to do things. I can assure you it will improve your sam, but so can many other things. I myself would like to get myself an askar body piece when it falls, just because I like how it looks and wouldnt mind wearing it in town. However when it would come to getting my job done, its back on the coat rack, as I have other body pieces that will get the job done.

    As far as campaign goes, I can not say how easy it is to hit the mobs. I know on pld I dont have trouble, I use the same armor I have in my sig, though substitute hades for brutal,shield for joytoy, bow for tiphia sting etc.

    Anyhow this isnt an arguement of which is right or wrong, but more of an intelligent conversation of why this or that ~can~ be more beneficial over the other with the ~current~ set of gear. In the another setup, the outcome can change
    ____________________________
    SERVER: IFRIT
    WHM/BRD: Triangulum
    PLD
    MNK
    SAM
    BLM
    DRK

    #45 Mar 12 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
    Scholar
    **
    445 posts
    Paladin wearing Askar body is doing it all wrong. If you don't wear haubergeon, you are doing it all wrong.

    Also, I believe WARs can get a six-hit very easily without the use of Askar body. Rajas/Echphoria/Brutal or Rajas/Chiv Chain/Brutal is enough on its own, with /SAM.
    #46 Mar 12 2009 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
    AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
    Your argument is well put and would have poked many holes in my argument were Paladin my first job to 75. However, what you may have missed in my profile is the fact that I had previously placed 5 Sword merits (+10 Attack, +10 Accuracy) to cover any accuracy issues that would have cropped up--in other words, I had the vital stats of the Haubergeon 9 levels before I could wear the actual item on PLD. Without the off-putting penalties, I might add.

    In addition to that, the 12.5 accuracy that I may be missing can easily be made up in 2 slots as I have a Potent Belt and Ecphoria Ring--which I use on Samurai as well--on hand should the need arise (your example of Mamool Ja would be such a case, though I haven't felt compelled to look for a merit party in months thanks to Campaign).

    At the time I had the Haubergeon, I only used it for Weapon Skills on PLD and NIN and only on SAM full-time because I had nothing else to wear before the Korazin dropped to me. Because I prefer to use /DRG on SAM, I had no real need for the Haubergeon.

    Again, your point is well taken and gives me reason to not argue my point so vehemently as mine is a singular case. I must, however, remain firm on the idea that all viable options should be presented without regard to one's superiority to another's.

    Just because you worked hard to get askar body doesn't make it good. It's great If you don't need the ACC, but I guarantee you do. As I said before I am a drk, well geared even went so far as to choose abyssal as my DM earring so I KNOW you do not have much more ACC then me if you even do. Merit mobs or harder huab or gtfo.

    If you honestly think 2atk and 2% DA > 10 ACC 5DEX from NQ haub you should think a bit harder.

    If you have HQ your comparing 2%DA to 1STR + 12ACC + 6DEX . . . seriously?


    And 200k is not a lot of money, new players can farm up the money to ding into haub it is standard gear that you should already have as a SAM.

    If you don't care that haub is better than askar that is fine, but that doesn't mean a guide should tell people to use it too.

    Edited, Mar 12th 2009 3:48pm by SillyXSara

    Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:42pm by SillyXSara
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    #47 Mar 12 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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    AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
    Maybe you'd like to tell the other 4 people in my Nyzul Isle group--2 Samurai, a Warrior, and a Dark Knight--that the Korazins we fought hard for are so inferior that we need to hang our heads in shame. I highly doubt any of them will blink an eye to any recriminations you send their way.

    You may have your own standards, but my point still stands. Neither you nor Illusitaru have made any concrete argument against it. I've only read increasingly desperate justifications for spending large amounts of gil as opposed to getting a small group together and participating in a casual event (which may be the source of your hostility towards my suggestion).

    Edited, Mar 12th 2009 6:39am by AriesMCMLXXIII


    Since others have addressed why Haubergeon is better than Korazin for most of the jobs I listed, I won't touch on that approach again. I gave a generalization and no specifics because I didn't want to get into the specifics. As said, unless your Acc is capped, Haubergeon will do more for your numbers. It even does more for your numbers than either Ares Cuirass OR Avalon Cuirass (although for different reasons). For a PLD, Accuracy is the most important part, but Refresh from Ares Cuirass or constant Enmity from Avalon may be enough to sidegrade the Haubergeon (circumstances permitted). I don't see Askar as a sidegrade for the reasons mentioned before.

    As for the WAR, SAM, and DRK comment - it's been addressed to death.

    Again, I won't add Askar because it's not even a side grade (sacrificing a little of some stats for better in others) compared to the mandatory (according to myself and thus the guide) Haubergeon which is only 200k. It's not being compared to Ares OR Avalon in this comparison, only to hauby. And, since it can be shown that except under very rare circumstances, the Hauby is strictly better than it, I'm not going to include it.
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #48 Mar 26 2009 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
    Interesting guide, and quite thorough. :D

    One suggestion. You might want to add links to the individual posts on your table of contents in the first post so people can find things easier. This should eliminate any issues with people saying the guide is too long to find certain topics.

    There's a "Link to this post" option at the bottom of each post. In IE, it seems to change the URL to that of the selected post when you click on it, but if you are using Firefox, it seems that you'll have to right click on it and then press "Copy Link Location" to get the URL for the individual post.
    #49 Mar 27 2009 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
    LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
    Interesting guide, and quite thorough. :D

    One suggestion. You might want to add links to the individual posts on your table of contents in the first post so people can find things easier. This should eliminate any issues with people saying the guide is too long to find certain topics.

    There's a "Link to this post" option at the bottom of each post. In IE, it seems to change the URL to that of the selected post when you click on it, but if you are using Firefox, it seems that you'll have to right click on it and then press "Copy Link Location" to get the URL for the individual post.
    I use firefox and do not have to do any extra steps.

    But yeah good advice.

    Another little nit-pick lesser colbri do not have the reflect trait. THere is no reason not to invite blms until level 62/63 when you fight NQ colbri and then in the 65/66 range you will fight eaither crawlers,imps, or flys where blms are once again useful until merit parties. In fact if your fighting mainly imps blm's have the advantage of not having to be in range of the sambas.

    BLM's can be in the party more then they cannot in the TAOU areas, people just seem to forget that. . .
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    #50 Mar 28 2009 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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    2,720 posts
    The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
    LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
    Interesting guide, and quite thorough. :D

    One suggestion. You might want to add links to the individual posts on your table of contents in the first post so people can find things easier. This should eliminate any issues with people saying the guide is too long to find certain topics.

    There's a "Link to this post" option at the bottom of each post. In IE, it seems to change the URL to that of the selected post when you click on it, but if you are using Firefox, it seems that you'll have to right click on it and then press "Copy Link Location" to get the URL for the individual post.
    I use firefox and do not have to do any extra steps.

    But yeah good advice.

    Another little nit-pick lesser colbri do not have the reflect trait. THere is no reason not to invite blms until level 62/63 when you fight NQ colbri and then in the 65/66 range you will fight eaither crawlers,imps, or flys where blms are once again useful until merit parties. In fact if your fighting mainly imps blm's have the advantage of not having to be in range of the sambas.

    BLM's can be in the party more then they cannot in the TAOU areas, people just seem to forget that. . .


    The problem with BLMs is more so their dependence on MP than the reflection property of Colibri and Greater Colibri. When the fights are over as fast as they are for most ToAU parties, a BLM may be resting as little as 1/3 to 1/2 the mob and as much as missing fights altogether trying to get mp back. I've had a friend who played BLM and really wanted to get it to 75 so we let him come along and we fought Eruca for a long time. He either opened the fight and then had to rest for most of it, or he rested for most of it and then got up just to try and finish the fight.

    I'd have to look at my parses, but I know for a fact that our average XP/hour dropped specifically because of the BLM. There just isn't enough refresh available to them to help them keep up. (Either that, or he didn't have adequate hmp gear, either...) I'm not beyond assuming it was just my friend, but it's hard to take a random BLM when my friends can't even keep up with the flow of the party and, by extension, drag it down.

    And, just to make it a little more clear, we were doing 9-12k/hr before moving to Erucas. I don't think we broke 9k once while fighting Erucas with a BLM. We did when we brought a melee DD job to replace him, though.
    ____________________________
    Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
    #51 Mar 29 2009 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
    Dracoth wrote:
    The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
    LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
    Interesting guide, and quite thorough. :D

    One suggestion. You might want to add links to the individual posts on your table of contents in the first post so people can find things easier. This should eliminate any issues with people saying the guide is too long to find certain topics.

    There's a "Link to this post" option at the bottom of each post. In IE, it seems to change the URL to that of the selected post when you click on it, but if you are using Firefox, it seems that you'll have to right click on it and then press "Copy Link Location" to get the URL for the individual post.
    I use firefox and do not have to do any extra steps.

    But yeah good advice.

    Another little nit-pick lesser colbri do not have the reflect trait. THere is no reason not to invite blms until level 62/63 when you fight NQ colbri and then in the 65/66 range you will fight eaither crawlers,imps, or flys where blms are once again useful until merit parties. In fact if your fighting mainly imps blm's have the advantage of not having to be in range of the sambas.

    BLM's can be in the party more then they cannot in the TAOU areas, people just seem to forget that. . .


    The problem with BLMs is more so their dependence on MP than the reflection property of Colibri and Greater Colibri. When the fights are over as fast as they are for most ToAU parties, a BLM may be resting as little as 1/3 to 1/2 the mob and as much as missing fights altogether trying to get mp back. I've had a friend who played BLM and really wanted to get it to 75 so we let him come along and we fought Eruca for a long time. He either opened the fight and then had to rest for most of it, or he rested for most of it and then got up just to try and finish the fight.

    I'd have to look at my parses, but I know for a fact that our average XP/hour dropped specifically because of the BLM. There just isn't enough refresh available to them to help them keep up. (Either that, or he didn't have adequate hmp gear, either...) I'm not beyond assuming it was just my friend, but it's hard to take a random BLM when my friends can't even keep up with the flow of the party and, by extension, drag it down.

    And, just to make it a little more clear, we were doing 9-12k/hr before moving to Erucas. I don't think we broke 9k once while fighting Erucas with a BLM. We did when we brought a melee DD job to replace him, though.
    Can't argue with that, never had a blm in TAOU areas lol . . .

    I hope they fix that for blms . . .
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