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I let melees dieFollow

#1 Mar 29 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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...or at least I want to.

So the past couple parties I've been in we've either had a DRK that liked to Last Resort + WS before I had hate or a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate...many times the party leader asks these DDs to hold off until tank (me on PLD) has hate but they refuse or just don't understand. I mainly run into this problem when the party wants to do a THF SATA WS combo off the get go.

For the past 58 levels, I've always gotten really nervous and tried everything in my power to get hate back from these over zealous DDs but something in me just snapped when I hit 59.

I just decided that if after 59 levels of playing a job and you don't know how to cooperate in a party then <<Death>> <<You can have this>>. I've even let the mob nearly kill a few of these DDs before pulling back hate.

Maybe I'm sick in the head or maybe I need to take a break from PLD..who knows?

Anyone else have this problem? Or am I just losing it?

Edited for clarification

Edited, Mar 29th 2009 7:46pm by CrazyBard
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#2 Mar 29 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Get used to it. You don't need to hold hate 100% of the time. Cover them so they don't die and cure them for more hate. Yes, you'll still get the retards that get hard ons opening fights with over 9000 damage WSs...tell them they shouldn't do that the first time, then let them die if they do it again. They'll get the point. If they don't they'll probably leave the party and you'll have one less moron to deal with.
#3 Mar 29 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly its only going to get worse, 60+ its time for you to adapt to the changes that have come with ToAU. Most my parties at 60+ start with guillotines and raging rushes right off the bat, otherwise im sitting on 200 tp all the time which just slows down the party.

If the support can handle the extra damage ;p let the melee do their thing. It's your job to be there to minimize the damage, not prevent it all. However, if they're taking so much damage the mages are running out of mana, then you need to tell them to cool their jets ;p

However, at 60+ i've seen far worse pallys that plain just can't hold any form of hate at all off of decent DD's who are holding back. It's getting to the point i hardly invite them unless I know the personal merit of the paladin. Goodluck trying to prove a point to a bunch of random melee's by letting them die/not covering though who are probably trying their best to maximize exp/hour. Honestly I keep track of our tanks timers, and will boot them if i think their not doing a good job.

Then again, im a minority.

Edited, Mar 29th 2009 8:36pm by WickedBear
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#4 Mar 29 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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WickedBear wrote:
Honestly I keep track of our tanks timers, and will boot them if i think their not doing a good job.

Then again, im a minority.


Well, that's really cool of you to think of the tank and keeping track of timers. And I agree that if I'm doing a **** poor job of tanking, I should be booted. But, I think that's all I'm looking for is a DD that is looking out for the best interest of the party not just "Ooh, let's see how much damage I can do before the THF SATAs the tank".

Honestly, keeping hate is not really an issue until it comes to THF and SATA and I swear I must party with some of the slowest Thieves...they never seem ready to SATA in the beginning.

Maybe I just need to be a little more picky with the parties I accept, maybe it's time to only form my own parties with people that know how to do their jobs.
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#5 Mar 29 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..
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#6 Mar 29 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Aizm wrote:
Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..


Yeah, that was the weird thing...he'd Jump then WS or vice versa and rarely used High Jump or Super Jump (although I'm not sure he had that one since we were synced at 55-56). Then, when I'd try and Cover him he'd run away from me. So it just got aggravating and I decided not to try and Cover him anymore. But, yeah, I understand how High and Super Jump work.
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#7 Mar 29 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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In the last 20 parties ive only had one thief, and only because it was my girlfriend lol. Honestly it's just going to get more crazy the closer you get to meriting. Just relax, and realize if you don't have hate its not a big deal, as long as no one is dieing, and mp isn't a problem.

The time for proper play style again will come if you fight bigger mobs, assuming you don't join a zerg. I sort of miss the days of proper setup parties, but unfortunately it doesn't yield good exp in the higher levels.
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yeah warriors have a weakness, people thinking they're inferior in both tanking and DD because they can do both.

"Each event is preceeded by prophecy. But without the hero there is no event"
-Zeron Arctus|the Underking
#8 Mar 29 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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60+ you dont have to worry about SATA anymore at least. at that level they get assassin, which lets them seperate TA from SA without a damage loss.
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#9 Mar 29 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
CrazyBard wrote:
Aizm wrote:
Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..


Yeah, that was the weird thing...he'd Jump then WS or vice versa and rarely used High Jump or Super Jump (although I'm not sure he had that one since we were synced at 55-56). Then, when I'd try and Cover him he'd run away from me. So it just got aggravating and I decided not to try and Cover him anymore. But, yeah, I understand how High and Super Jump work.


Super Jump is level 50. If a DRG isn't utilizing his or her hate tools while pumping out damage, they deserve to risk death. I'm guessing you were fighting Colibri, so a penta that didn't kill probably resulted in lost food or a flurry to the face?
#10 Mar 29 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
Super Jump is level 50. If a DRG isn't utilizing his or her hate tools while pumping out damage, they deserve to risk death. I'm guessing you were fighting Colibri, so a penta that didn't kill probably resulted in lost food or a flurry to the face?


Yep, I saw him take a few of those. Felt bad for the guy until he fled from behind me when I tried to Cover him. Guess he didn't like staring at my backside.
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#11 Mar 29 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm only guilty of letting mages die...er nearly die.

I had a party fighting imps at level 65 a few weeks ago. The WHM kept throwing out cures, never giving me the chance to build up hate. They also never seem to silena me on their own, only when I tell them in party chat. Needless to say, they cure bombed me while I had on amnesia and was silenced. This resulted in their near death experience and they proceeded to do their job right...only to slack off 10 min later.

#12 Mar 29 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Pre60ish when I had a thf in the party I told them to have fun SATing the DD's when timers were up. Before they get their awesome WS's and other toys around 60 I never had a problem keeping hate off most DD's even if they got SATA VB on them relatively early in the fight. Only exceptions were some very good SAM's or DRGs, in which case I told the THF to SATA a different DD.

60+ THF has assassin and doesn't need to stack SATA so they can just plant the hate directly on you with TAWS.

Sidenote oddly enough about half the THFs were annoyed that I told them to SATA the DD's . . . not sure why . . . the other half were just happy to be able to let loose and complemented me on keeping hate =P
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#13 Mar 30 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I've been in the same situation except as a healer and wanting to let PLDs die. I've partied with so many PLDs who will be at full MP and wait until they get to 200 HP to cure themselves. Its not that they try and just keep getting interrupted, they just don't cast Cure at all. I've always been tempted to see if they are actually willing to let themselves die rather than use their MP.
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#14 Mar 30 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
Foustian wrote:
I've been in the same situation except as a healer and wanting to let PLDs die. I've partied with so many PLDs who will be at full MP and wait until they get to 200 HP to cure themselves. Its not that they try and just keep getting interrupted, they just don't cast Cure at all. I've always been tempted to see if they are actually willing to let themselves die rather than use their MP.
Not going to lie if I have a whm and we are killing well enough for endless chain 5's without me doing a ton of healing and I dont need the hate I will gladly let myself fall down deep into yellow hp before I cure myself, the more time I spend cureing the less time I spend swinging my sword.

I don't generally LET myself get down to red, but since I don't worry about being in the yellow on occasion while im comfortably yellow the mob might get a particularly strong WS then back it up with a crit or a DA or something puting me in the red before I cure myself.

Then again I have had other parties were the main healers seemed to think that cures were the ONLY thing my mp was for and would wait for me to be in red with no mp before they waisted their presious mp on me. Since I static with a friend and we are very picky I am generally the leader so I will tell them that they need to step it up, if they don't I replace them. I suggest talking to a pld you feel isn't curing enough and if they are holding back the xp of the party, replace them.
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#15 Mar 30 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're starting to get a taste of a problem that is only going to become more and more prevalent until people stop wanting you in parties entirely. Best you can do is use Cover if it's up, toss a flash to help them get by a few hits, and drop a cure afterward. You had better be going all out as a DD yourself to at least try to take the edge off of their damage spikes when you don't have hate.
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#16 Mar 30 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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As long as they are not dying while your trying to regain hate. And as long as you don't have to rest inbetween each fight because you a tapped. Then it sounds like they are doing it right. More damage = more xp as long as you are not creating downtime.
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#17 Mar 30 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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lately i've been leveling warrior (war/sam, great axe or polearm), currently 68. when i first arrive at a pt i'll hold back and try to figure out how soon i can ws for the kill. but i fulltime hasso, with a swift belt so thats a big boost to my damage over time. then a double attack with crits is like a mini ws...so sometimes ill still pull hate even holding back my tp. and then if we're fighting birds, i can use my merited polearm for more dmg. ah well, sometimes i feel like i need to gimp myself!
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#18 Mar 30 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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It's as simple as this: you do what is in your power as a tank to help your party.

If it slows exp, they'll get the point.
If they die, they'll get the point.
When the party starts to suck because kills arent fast enough and they are pulling hate early, they'll get the point.

If the party is horrible then inform them your leaving soon and disband. However, in ToAU areas melees TP early. Adapt and get a set of DD gear to WS early yourself with enmity gear on to keep up with the melee on the hate threshold. Macro in enmity gear for vokes, cures, and flash. If you still can't keep hate at this point then either your fighting imps, or there is a problem.
#19 Mar 30 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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You might want to recommend that your melees /NIN if they aren't already (SAMs can keep /WAR since they have Seigan). As WAR I like to /SAM 60+ if possible like an above poster said... Really lets me pump out the damage. BUT if the PLD is having trouble with hate, or it's a NIN tank, or if we only have 1 mage (e.g. WHM, COR, tank, DDx3), I'll /NIN even using G axe. Gimps my damage but keeps me alive, and the chains going. You'll have to learn to be comfortable with the idea of a /NIN player taking 6 hits on their shadows before you get hate back - it's the way the game goes nowadays!

Don't forget about the obvious things like curing other players, and backup hate tools like Rampart, shield bash, Warcry, etc.

You can also have an all-out DD gear set that you slap on when you don't have the mob's attention - like replacing shield skill and enmity gear with DD gear. The more damage you do, the faster you can get that hate back.
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#20 Mar 30 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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My favorite DDs were the ones who knew when to pump out their damage. I had a DRK once who used Soul Eater + Last Resort before using his WS's. He'd send a single message over party chat and run behind me, fire off the abilities, and would stay put. I'd cover, and we'd go on our way. The mob would die fast, I'd still take the hits, and my cover macro would be up with plenty of time to ride it for what it was worth. The parties went so much more smoothly this way.

The DDs who think it's fun to pull hate off a PLD with their epeen... I don't usually party with them again. It's not that big of a deal since lately, it's LS parties only for me, but I know there's plenty of people without that luxury.

DDs knowing how to manage their hate are as important as a tank who knows what to do when he doesn't have hate. Tanking isn't a matter of keeping a mob on oneself 100% of the time - it's knowing how to mitigate as much damage and decrease as much downtime as possible.
#21 Mar 30 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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DRKs that do LR and SE together are epeen newbs. They in no way effect each other. Tell them to spread the damage/hate out between two weapon skills.
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#22 Mar 30 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Wtf? When added together, they create an overall bigger WS. What's the sense in taking hate twice as often if you can lump it together and have all the hate Covered by the Pld?
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#23 Mar 31 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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This vageuly reminds me of a similar situation where I was on DRG and the PLD DIDN'T want me to use Super Jump. Said I wasn't alowed to use my TP at start and Super Jump because it ruined his hate gain.(I know I know, go figure)

Needless to say I ignored him entirely, I'm not going to sit on 100+tp when I can potentially perform a hateless WS, whether at the start of the fight or not. And yes you do end up taking a hit but If it improves the overal killspeed without causing MP issues I don't really care. PLDs seem to have a hate epeen much like a DD has a dmg epeen, most don't understand that a smooth/fast party does not always necessitate them having 100% of the hate. Infact it will always be more mp efficient to have a second person taking the occasional hit and relying on Regen to keep them alive.(admittedly finding mages who cast regen is also rare)

I think one DRG issue is that people use High Jump for TP gain instead of saving it for an early fight WS. I continue to sub WAR on DRG and after a Chain or 2 you can pretty much get your TP gain to line up with low mob HP, or High/Super recasts. Despite this I still end up pulling hate from time to time but that's what Covers for.
As for DRKs using SE/LR, it's when they use Stun afterwards that ****** me off, it's like the enmity of Flash ffs.


Aside from not DDing, not using there MP properly/healing others, not Covering people, my gripe is with PLDs who think Sentinal is just Provoke#2. It boosts the enmity on everything you do AFTER using it. If I see Provoke-Flash-Rampart-Sentinal again I'm gona kill someone.
#24 Mar 31 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
LR adds a bunch of attack bosting your normal weapon damage and SE adds some of your hp to damage . . .they don't conflict.


Anyway he IS doinitwrong though . . . would be better off using SE right after a WS and getting full use out of that +20 ACC and huge dmg increase, mage puts their highest regen on them and maybe one extra cure and your good. This also makes it easier for the pld to actually get hate back after cover wears/ not lose it in the 1st place.
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#25 Mar 31 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
#26 Mar 31 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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What I found the most annoying fighting imps is having amnesia and silena and the mages are just over there Cure 3/4ing me like no tommorow. It feels like I have to macro {Silena} every single time I get silenced so they know the split second to silena me so I can continually used Flash and Cures whenever I can't Sentinel and Provoke. Most party on imps tend to be mainly melee anyways, so the whole argument of having too much to do doesn't please me as much.

There is also some rdm mentality of "since I am needed I can do what I want. If I want to be lazy in a party I can, because you know what, I am most likely needed by another party anyways."

Couple with DDers that want to obliterate the imp doesn't make anything better because the imp runs back and forth between the DDer and the mage if the mage still insist on cure bombing me. It is a good thing that most jobs, that level on imps, usually go /nin though. That way if hate does go into the hands of the DDer, I just let the DDer take some hits so his shadows disappear before I go on back to voking and flashing or better yet save it for the next imp.

Colibris are particularly easy to tank well enough for me. It is just that I am not as happy when my party members get their Sole Sushi +1 taken away from them because they are overpowering every other DDer in combination with my tanking.

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 5:24pm by Hajikikun
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