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I let melees dieFollow

#1 Mar 29 2009 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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...or at least I want to.

So the past couple parties I've been in we've either had a DRK that liked to Last Resort + WS before I had hate or a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate...many times the party leader asks these DDs to hold off until tank (me on PLD) has hate but they refuse or just don't understand. I mainly run into this problem when the party wants to do a THF SATA WS combo off the get go.

For the past 58 levels, I've always gotten really nervous and tried everything in my power to get hate back from these over zealous DDs but something in me just snapped when I hit 59.

I just decided that if after 59 levels of playing a job and you don't know how to cooperate in a party then <<Death>> <<You can have this>>. I've even let the mob nearly kill a few of these DDs before pulling back hate.

Maybe I'm sick in the head or maybe I need to take a break from PLD..who knows?

Anyone else have this problem? Or am I just losing it?

Edited for clarification

Edited, Mar 29th 2009 7:46pm by CrazyBard
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#2 Mar 29 2009 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Get used to it. You don't need to hold hate 100% of the time. Cover them so they don't die and cure them for more hate. Yes, you'll still get the retards that get hard ons opening fights with over 9000 damage WSs...tell them they shouldn't do that the first time, then let them die if they do it again. They'll get the point. If they don't they'll probably leave the party and you'll have one less moron to deal with.
#3 Mar 29 2009 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly its only going to get worse, 60+ its time for you to adapt to the changes that have come with ToAU. Most my parties at 60+ start with guillotines and raging rushes right off the bat, otherwise im sitting on 200 tp all the time which just slows down the party.

If the support can handle the extra damage ;p let the melee do their thing. It's your job to be there to minimize the damage, not prevent it all. However, if they're taking so much damage the mages are running out of mana, then you need to tell them to cool their jets ;p

However, at 60+ i've seen far worse pallys that plain just can't hold any form of hate at all off of decent DD's who are holding back. It's getting to the point i hardly invite them unless I know the personal merit of the paladin. Goodluck trying to prove a point to a bunch of random melee's by letting them die/not covering though who are probably trying their best to maximize exp/hour. Honestly I keep track of our tanks timers, and will boot them if i think their not doing a good job.

Then again, im a minority.

Edited, Mar 29th 2009 8:36pm by WickedBear
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#4 Mar 29 2009 at 5:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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WickedBear wrote:
Honestly I keep track of our tanks timers, and will boot them if i think their not doing a good job.

Then again, im a minority.


Well, that's really cool of you to think of the tank and keeping track of timers. And I agree that if I'm doing a piss poor job of tanking, I should be booted. But, I think that's all I'm looking for is a DD that is looking out for the best interest of the party not just "Ooh, let's see how much damage I can do before the THF SATAs the tank".

Honestly, keeping hate is not really an issue until it comes to THF and SATA and I swear I must party with some of the slowest Thieves...they never seem ready to SATA in the beginning.

Maybe I just need to be a little more picky with the parties I accept, maybe it's time to only form my own parties with people that know how to do their jobs.
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#5 Mar 29 2009 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..
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#6 Mar 29 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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Aizm wrote:
Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..


Yeah, that was the weird thing...he'd Jump then WS or vice versa and rarely used High Jump or Super Jump (although I'm not sure he had that one since we were synced at 55-56). Then, when I'd try and Cover him he'd run away from me. So it just got aggravating and I decided not to try and Cover him anymore. But, yeah, I understand how High and Super Jump work.
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#7 Mar 29 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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In the last 20 parties ive only had one thief, and only because it was my girlfriend lol. Honestly it's just going to get more crazy the closer you get to meriting. Just relax, and realize if you don't have hate its not a big deal, as long as no one is dieing, and mp isn't a problem.

The time for proper play style again will come if you fight bigger mobs, assuming you don't join a zerg. I sort of miss the days of proper setup parties, but unfortunately it doesn't yield good exp in the higher levels.
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Warlord choryukami wrote:
yeah warriors have a weakness, people thinking they're inferior in both tanking and DD because they can do both.

"Each event is preceeded by prophecy. But without the hero there is no event"
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#8 Mar 29 2009 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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60+ you dont have to worry about SATA anymore at least. at that level they get assassin, which lets them seperate TA from SA without a damage loss.
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#9 Mar 29 2009 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
CrazyBard wrote:
Aizm wrote:
Quote:
a DRG who'd Jump and WS before I had hate


Just so you know, High Jump and Super Jump both shed hate based on percentages. So I hope you don't freak out an be like "OMG he high jump'd when he already had hate!". I know you just said "jump" however with today's players you can never be so sure..


Yeah, that was the weird thing...he'd Jump then WS or vice versa and rarely used High Jump or Super Jump (although I'm not sure he had that one since we were synced at 55-56). Then, when I'd try and Cover him he'd run away from me. So it just got aggravating and I decided not to try and Cover him anymore. But, yeah, I understand how High and Super Jump work.


Super Jump is level 50. If a DRG isn't utilizing his or her hate tools while pumping out damage, they deserve to risk death. I'm guessing you were fighting Colibri, so a penta that didn't kill probably resulted in lost food or a flurry to the face?
#10 Mar 29 2009 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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LadyOfHolyDarkness, Eater of Souls wrote:
Super Jump is level 50. If a DRG isn't utilizing his or her hate tools while pumping out damage, they deserve to risk death. I'm guessing you were fighting Colibri, so a penta that didn't kill probably resulted in lost food or a flurry to the face?


Yep, I saw him take a few of those. Felt bad for the guy until he fled from behind me when I tried to Cover him. Guess he didn't like staring at my backside.
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#11 Mar 29 2009 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm only guilty of letting mages die...er nearly die.

I had a party fighting imps at level 65 a few weeks ago. The WHM kept throwing out cures, never giving me the chance to build up hate. They also never seem to silena me on their own, only when I tell them in party chat. Needless to say, they cure bombed me while I had on amnesia and was silenced. This resulted in their near death experience and they proceeded to do their job right...only to slack off 10 min later.

#12 Mar 29 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Pre60ish when I had a thf in the party I told them to have fun SATing the DD's when timers were up. Before they get their awesome WS's and other toys around 60 I never had a problem keeping hate off most DD's even if they got SATA VB on them relatively early in the fight. Only exceptions were some very good SAM's or DRGs, in which case I told the THF to SATA a different DD.

60+ THF has assassin and doesn't need to stack SATA so they can just plant the hate directly on you with TAWS.

Sidenote oddly enough about half the THFs were annoyed that I told them to SATA the DD's . . . not sure why . . . the other half were just happy to be able to let loose and complemented me on keeping hate =P
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#13 Mar 30 2009 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I've been in the same situation except as a healer and wanting to let PLDs die. I've partied with so many PLDs who will be at full MP and wait until they get to 200 HP to cure themselves. Its not that they try and just keep getting interrupted, they just don't cast Cure at all. I've always been tempted to see if they are actually willing to let themselves die rather than use their MP.
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#14 Mar 30 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
Foustian wrote:
I've been in the same situation except as a healer and wanting to let PLDs die. I've partied with so many PLDs who will be at full MP and wait until they get to 200 HP to cure themselves. Its not that they try and just keep getting interrupted, they just don't cast Cure at all. I've always been tempted to see if they are actually willing to let themselves die rather than use their MP.
Not going to lie if I have a whm and we are killing well enough for endless chain 5's without me doing a ton of healing and I dont need the hate I will gladly let myself fall down deep into yellow hp before I cure myself, the more time I spend cureing the less time I spend swinging my sword.

I don't generally LET myself get down to red, but since I don't worry about being in the yellow on occasion while im comfortably yellow the mob might get a particularly strong WS then back it up with a crit or a DA or something puting me in the red before I cure myself.

Then again I have had other parties were the main healers seemed to think that cures were the ONLY thing my mp was for and would wait for me to be in red with no mp before they waisted their presious mp on me. Since I static with a friend and we are very picky I am generally the leader so I will tell them that they need to step it up, if they don't I replace them. I suggest talking to a pld you feel isn't curing enough and if they are holding back the xp of the party, replace them.
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#15 Mar 30 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're starting to get a taste of a problem that is only going to become more and more prevalent until people stop wanting you in parties entirely. Best you can do is use Cover if it's up, toss a flash to help them get by a few hits, and drop a cure afterward. You had better be going all out as a DD yourself to at least try to take the edge off of their damage spikes when you don't have hate.
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#16 Mar 30 2009 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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As long as they are not dying while your trying to regain hate. And as long as you don't have to rest inbetween each fight because you a tapped. Then it sounds like they are doing it right. More damage = more xp as long as you are not creating downtime.
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#17 Mar 30 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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lately i've been leveling warrior (war/sam, great axe or polearm), currently 68. when i first arrive at a pt i'll hold back and try to figure out how soon i can ws for the kill. but i fulltime hasso, with a swift belt so thats a big boost to my damage over time. then a double attack with crits is like a mini ws...so sometimes ill still pull hate even holding back my tp. and then if we're fighting birds, i can use my merited polearm for more dmg. ah well, sometimes i feel like i need to gimp myself!
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#18 Mar 30 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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It's as simple as this: you do what is in your power as a tank to help your party.

If it slows exp, they'll get the point.
If they die, they'll get the point.
When the party starts to suck because kills arent fast enough and they are pulling hate early, they'll get the point.

If the party is horrible then inform them your leaving soon and disband. However, in ToAU areas melees TP early. Adapt and get a set of DD gear to WS early yourself with enmity gear on to keep up with the melee on the hate threshold. Macro in enmity gear for vokes, cures, and flash. If you still can't keep hate at this point then either your fighting imps, or there is a problem.
#19 Mar 30 2009 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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You might want to recommend that your melees /NIN if they aren't already (SAMs can keep /WAR since they have Seigan). As WAR I like to /SAM 60+ if possible like an above poster said... Really lets me pump out the damage. BUT if the PLD is having trouble with hate, or it's a NIN tank, or if we only have 1 mage (e.g. WHM, COR, tank, DDx3), I'll /NIN even using G axe. Gimps my damage but keeps me alive, and the chains going. You'll have to learn to be comfortable with the idea of a /NIN player taking 6 hits on their shadows before you get hate back - it's the way the game goes nowadays!

Don't forget about the obvious things like curing other players, and backup hate tools like Rampart, shield bash, Warcry, etc.

You can also have an all-out DD gear set that you slap on when you don't have the mob's attention - like replacing shield skill and enmity gear with DD gear. The more damage you do, the faster you can get that hate back.
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#20 Mar 30 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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My favorite DDs were the ones who knew when to pump out their damage. I had a DRK once who used Soul Eater + Last Resort before using his WS's. He'd send a single message over party chat and run behind me, fire off the abilities, and would stay put. I'd cover, and we'd go on our way. The mob would die fast, I'd still take the hits, and my cover macro would be up with plenty of time to ride it for what it was worth. The parties went so much more smoothly this way.

The DDs who think it's fun to pull hate off a PLD with their epeen... I don't usually party with them again. It's not that big of a deal since lately, it's LS parties only for me, but I know there's plenty of people without that luxury.

DDs knowing how to manage their hate are as important as a tank who knows what to do when he doesn't have hate. Tanking isn't a matter of keeping a mob on oneself 100% of the time - it's knowing how to mitigate as much damage and decrease as much downtime as possible.
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#21 Mar 30 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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DRKs that do LR and SE together are epeen newbs. They in no way effect each other. Tell them to spread the damage/hate out between two weapon skills.
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#22 Mar 30 2009 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Wtf? When added together, they create an overall bigger WS. What's the sense in taking hate twice as often if you can lump it together and have all the hate Covered by the Pld?
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#23 Mar 31 2009 at 1:16 AM Rating: Good
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This vageuly reminds me of a similar situation where I was on DRG and the PLD DIDN'T want me to use Super Jump. Said I wasn't alowed to use my TP at start and Super Jump because it ruined his hate gain.(I know I know, go figure)

Needless to say I ignored him entirely, I'm not going to sit on 100+tp when I can potentially perform a hateless WS, whether at the start of the fight or not. And yes you do end up taking a hit but If it improves the overal killspeed without causing MP issues I don't really care. PLDs seem to have a hate epeen much like a DD has a dmg epeen, most don't understand that a smooth/fast party does not always necessitate them having 100% of the hate. Infact it will always be more mp efficient to have a second person taking the occasional hit and relying on Regen to keep them alive.(admittedly finding mages who cast regen is also rare)

I think one DRG issue is that people use High Jump for TP gain instead of saving it for an early fight WS. I continue to sub WAR on DRG and after a Chain or 2 you can pretty much get your TP gain to line up with low mob HP, or High/Super recasts. Despite this I still end up pulling hate from time to time but that's what Covers for.
As for DRKs using SE/LR, it's when they use Stun afterwards that pisses me off, it's like the enmity of Flash ffs.


Aside from not DDing, not using there MP properly/healing others, not Covering people, my gripe is with PLDs who think Sentinal is just Provoke#2. It boosts the enmity on everything you do AFTER using it. If I see Provoke-Flash-Rampart-Sentinal again I'm gona kill someone.
#24 Mar 31 2009 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
LR adds a bunch of attack bosting your normal weapon damage and SE adds some of your hp to damage . . .they don't conflict.


Anyway he IS doinitwrong though . . . would be better off using SE right after a WS and getting full use out of that +20 ACC and huge dmg increase, mage puts their highest regen on them and maybe one extra cure and your good. This also makes it easier for the pld to actually get hate back after cover wears/ not lose it in the 1st place.
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#25 Mar 31 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
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#26 Mar 31 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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What I found the most annoying fighting imps is having amnesia and silena and the mages are just over there Cure 3/4ing me like no tommorow. It feels like I have to macro {Silena} every single time I get silenced so they know the split second to silena me so I can continually used Flash and Cures whenever I can't Sentinel and Provoke. Most party on imps tend to be mainly melee anyways, so the whole argument of having too much to do doesn't please me as much.

There is also some rdm mentality of "since I am needed I can do what I want. If I want to be lazy in a party I can, because you know what, I am most likely needed by another party anyways."

Couple with DDers that want to obliterate the imp doesn't make anything better because the imp runs back and forth between the DDer and the mage if the mage still insist on cure bombing me. It is a good thing that most jobs, that level on imps, usually go /nin though. That way if hate does go into the hands of the DDer, I just let the DDer take some hits so his shadows disappear before I go on back to voking and flashing or better yet save it for the next imp.

Colibris are particularly easy to tank well enough for me. It is just that I am not as happy when my party members get their Sole Sushi +1 taken away from them because they are overpowering every other DDer in combination with my tanking.

Edited, Mar 31st 2009 5:24pm by Hajikikun
#27 Mar 31 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
Dracoth wrote:
Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
Yeah I understood . . . but drk is muh baby! Smiley: nod

And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P
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#28 Mar 31 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
Yeah I understood . . . but drk is muh baby! Smiley: nod

And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P


So long as it results in higher XP/hr, it's perfect. There are lines that can be crossed, though, and as a DRK, you know what I'm talking about. I prefer the DDs to go all out, too, in reason, but if they can't toe the line, they aren't worth XPing with (in both senses of the phrase).
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#29 Mar 31 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Nowadays the killing speed of mobs is so fast than my PLD's job now is to only hold the mob briefly for the first few seconds, and then leave the Melee to tank briefly for the last few drops of life..
#30 Mar 31 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
I say Death is the best lesson! Death to ignorant DDs!!!
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#31 Apr 01 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
It doesn't get better, let me tell you. Every party I've had the "pleasure" of joining has had a DD that can't control their hate and sucks at mitigating damage. I've had WAR/NINs that seem to think that once the mob comes in to Rampage it before I even fire off my first flash or any job ability. It's not bad because they can cast shadows, right? Well, only if they don't suck at casting it. Hell, I had one that cast Utsusemi: Ni at the start of the party then never cast Ichi or Ni ever again.

I swear DDs never run behind the PLD when they grab hate. They either stay put and take the hits and expect to live without recasting shadows, or they run around like an idiot and kill themselves and others. Hell, I had one idiot that ran straight into a group of Greater Colibri with everyone except for myself and the RDM following him, they all ate it hard. Apparently it was my fault for not initiating a legendary 4 person cover that, in the idiot SAMs words, "Only n00b PLDs don't use that uber skill n00b," grammar and spelling corrections applied to make it understandable.

If they pull hate, try to grab it back. If they fire off a high number WS at the start then usually I don't bother and if I grab hate I grab it, otherwise they can tank and/or die. Just make sure you tell them that if they grab hate to get behind you for cover, as chances are they'll be up on the mobs ass and you won't be able to get in front of them to cover them.
#32 Apr 01 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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WAR/NIN gets Utsusemi: Ni at level 74...so by that point it would be fair to say it's no longer a typical EXP party style but a merit party style. If that's the case, the WAR/NIN should be able to look after themselves with two sets of Utsusemi recast timers with Flash/Cover to compensate for the fast hit rate that Colibri have.

If it's a merit style party, the only way you'll increase net EXP/Limit points per hour is to increase DOT...which means melee DDs should WS closer to 100% as possible.

What I'm getting at is that by then, nobody really expects the Paladin to hold hate for more than a brief instance anyway...so you should concentrate on maximising your own DOT as well as supporting with Flash/Cure as necessary...and maybe using PLD/NIN if you have enough +acc/+haste%/+att to make it work.

As for idiotic party members...well, one explanation is that they're either unskilled, inattentive (multitasking ffxi) or using a 3rd party bot program. In which case, you'd be better off leaving the party anyway.
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#33 Apr 02 2009 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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You would run into really experienced players and nice to PLD that they hold back.

I think it is justified to let that DD die if he repeats doing stupid things (e.g. last resort + souleater + weapon skill) at start. As a matter of fact, you won't be able to get hate back without using your 2hr if he has good equip.

As some other ppl said, it gets harder to hold hate at high level...so as long as the DDs are not intentionally 'show-off', losing hate once in a while is not a big deal.
#34 Apr 02 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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metade wrote:
You would run into really experienced players and nice to PLD that they hold back.

I think it is justified to let that DD die if he repeats doing stupid things (e.g. last resort + souleater + weapon skill) at start. As a matter of fact, you won't be able to get hate back without using your 2hr if he has good equip.

As some other ppl said, it gets harder to hold hate at high level...so as long as the DDs are not intentionally 'show-off', losing hate once in a while is not a big deal.


The later in levels you get, the less effective Invincible is. It doesn't even cap your hate level. It's quite possible to cap your VE hate on PLD through the use of Sentinel, Rampart, a flash or two, and a well placed cure. But, if the DD is really going balls out at the later levels, they're able to cap VE as well and probably have higher CE than you do, making it pointless. In that situation, Invincible wouldn't even turn the mob for a half second.
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#35 Apr 02 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Exceeding Invincible in a party of 6 only requires Sentinel>Rampart>Flash in quick succession(7960VE and 363CE by my calculation to Invincible's 7200VE 1CE). That's how tame Invincible is.

By comparison, a 1500 SE/LR Guillotine @75 will knock out 9530VE and 2307CE. Basically instant VE cap and masses of CE.


You'r best bet pulling that back (without 2-hour) would prolly be *Sentinel>Atonement>Flash> Hp-Swaps and CureIV spam.

*EDITED
Sentinel>Atonement alone is the equivalent of doing a 1500WS(assuming you hit the 750cap which I don't think you would without capped CE? I don't have it so I'm not 100% on it's mechanics). Flash will then cap your VE and put you 360CE above the DRK, the CureIVs maintaining your capped VE and increase CE.



Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 11:56am by bimrog
#36 Apr 02 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dracoth wrote:
My favorite DDs were the ones who knew when to pump out their damage. I had a DRK once who used Soul Eater + Last Resort before using his WS's. He'd send a single message over party chat and run behind me, fire off the abilities, and would stay put. I'd cover, and we'd go on our way. The mob would die fast, I'd still take the hits, and my cover macro would be up with plenty of time to ride it for what it was worth.


When I hit the Colibri levels and holding hate started to become more difficult, I would regularly "advertise" Cover to the DDs in the party. I found that many DDs were surprised that I even wanted to bother using Cover. Most of the time, once we got going and fell into a good rhythm of DDs signaling that they were about to take hate followed by me taking the hits for them they were very impressed and willing to accommodate.

The key to success for a PLD in these levels is taking as many hits as you can to mitigate as much damage as possible. In a fast paced experience party, timing your job abilities and WSs in conjunction with well timed Sentinels to maximized hate spikes goes a very long way.

I will say that the early Imp levels, at least for me, were much better in the hate keeping department. It's frustrating to be without Provoke, but at the same time your DDs can't WS either. As long as you have at least one good mage to stay on top of Silena as if her life depends on it, you'll have all the hate tools you need for the most part.
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#37 Apr 02 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I let melee die all the time, when tanking things endgame.

If they can't wait for me to Sentinel, Flash, Cure IV twice, Flash before unloading all they got, they can just die, and we do fine lacking a DD or two that can't wait 30 seconds.

Happened on Jailers last night, I popped Hope, and I was pulling him over just a bit south to where everyone was gathered, two melee ran up past everyone and started unloading on him, before he was even at camp.

They both died, I started my hate routine after Hope creamed them and ran to me at camp. Everyone in the LS knows not to support people that do stuff like this, just let them die, and the melee knew better but, they still did it.


Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 7:46pm by NCCoda
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#38 Apr 02 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P


I like this mindset and I've been trying to adopt it for myself. It certainly makes the party more fun when I view it as a competition instead of *sighing* and complaining to my LS about another crappy THF who can't get SATA ready before the mob creams the /WAR DD who's the first Provoke.

Although, I still do plenty of complaining to my LS >.<
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#39 Apr 02 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest... I tell the THFs NOT to SATA, regardless of level. I've found it more effective to split the two, even before Assassin at 60. Sure, TA's not guaranteed to land before 60, but I don't worry about that as much. The increase in damage to the mob works great and most of the time, it's a hell of a lot easier to set up.

I WILL boot a THF who SATA's a DD at the start of the fight because they can't figure out how to separate the two...
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#40 Apr 02 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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SillyXSara wrote:
And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me

This is indeed made of win. Since all I did was pt during JP hours, and you know how they prefer subbing /nin to any job. I would have them come /war /drg /sam instead, provided that the sub was subtle and better than /nin.

I have never had so much fun exping on a job like I did on pld. It was beyond awesome. Funny enough, even though it was JP hours, my DD style of tanking was very accepted and welcomed more than it was questioned. I say this because a lot of pts that I have been in, if there is something they are not sure of they might not want to try it, a bit conservative maybe?

For me, I used to bring a few meds to help with mp, and refresh. I also setup everyones names into each of my cures, that way if they pulled hate id hit my macro and cure them very fast. Communication helps too, if the mages keep curing the DDs theyll just soak up emnity and take yours away.
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#41 Apr 03 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Lwin wrote:
Nowadays the killing speed of mobs is so fast than my PLD's job now is to only hold the mob briefly for the first few seconds, and then leave the Melee to tank briefly for the last few drops of life..


This. Enjoy parties while you can; at meripo levels, you'll want a job besides PLD.
#42 Apr 04 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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I had so many problems with hate while lvling , most of my pts was very stressful to hold any hate , riding JA/Flash's timers while swapping all the enmity I have for both... and Melees wouldn't help at all.

Until I exped with Smart RDM that actually cast haste on me ( 1st haste 50-70...) and a BRD that actually keep melee buffs rather then Ballads when I didn't need, Really was shocked that I hold hate pretty easy as /NIN while keeping chain ... melees were /nin for a change to make it easier for RDM to haste/cure/silena.

Sure Party leader complained that exp was low ( eye-balling , we actually parsed ~3k exp more with no hate/mp issue with the same setup, could be better but had other pt close) but was one of the best pts I ever had XD.

Don't bother going turtle PLD while exping (one of my mistakes just to save myself from the "you taking too much dmg!" bs ), If you are expecting to "take so much dmg!" (due to over camping) then go /nin and demand melee's buffs (Haste, songs... personal opinion on /nin...) as it really hard to keep up with DDs if you are not viewed as DD by your support.
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#43 Apr 06 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
I dont boot melees for taking hate, I boot melees if they aren't doing enough damage.

Before about 60 even a good DD who got SATA's at the start of the fight never held hate from me for more then an attack round or 2, post 60 if they are taking hate it's probably because we are killing the mobs in a minute or less, which is fine by me.

If you cant hold hate but your still doing endless chain5+, dont get butthurt just try to help heal and DD, cover as much as possible and enjoy your xp.

Honestly the DD's I have kicked were the ones I out-parsed or was about even with even though I was having to cure spam because the mob wasnt dieing fast enough.
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#44 Apr 06 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's a saying I learned from WoW during my 6 month flirt with it that I really wish migrated over into FFXI.

If the tank dies, it's the healers fault.
If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault. (Obviously, this isn't counting AoEs)

I just finished 72 levels of crack leveling SCH and healers are in the same place as paladins are when it comes to the question: "Should I let the moron die..."

I can't honestly say 100% of them made it out alive. >.>;

It all really depends on the party. If the whole party kinda sucks (like you know you're gonna disband anyway because they're dumb) kill a few people, maybe they'll learn. If it's a good party that's got a moron in it, that's really up to how much that moron makes you hate them during the duration of the party.




Edited, Apr 6th 2009 1:58pm by Telmaski
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#45 Apr 06 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
In a good party the tank should just barely hold more hate then the DD's because the DD's should be pumping out as much damage as they can get away with in order to kill faster and get more xp. THis means that if everyone is doing their job to optimal performance the DD's will be pushing right to the limit and will probably make the mob look them in the face on occasion, it's the tank's job to make sure the mob just takes a peek.
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#46 Jun 15 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
I know your pain, i also run into mages that like to keep me at 100% all the time and i cant use my cures to hold any hate. At lvl 64 i think everyone is far enough into the job to know whats what. But.... i still feel that im lacking something in a party when i cant keep hate. i like to dual box alot with my sam/thf and make sure i get hate with TA but its not always easy. but i just got back into PLD and im not sure what changes have been made and what i need to compinsate for now with new items, jobs, monsters, abilities and so on. Being away for awhile will do that, i guess im just behind the times.
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#47 Jun 15 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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I just like beating that kind of DD at their own game.

Nothing sets hate like Sentinel>Warcry>Vorpal Blade in a hybrid/DD build.
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#48 Jun 21 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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When i take hate on samurai and die, i at least have the dignity to die standing behind the paladin. =3

I also have PLD52, so i totally hear where you're coming from. I think i'm one of the only people i've partied with in recent memory that remembers that cover exists. (Actually, yes i do always party with myself. lol@myphrasing) Usually when a DD takes hate, i more or less let them tank and heal them as they take damage. As long as no one dies, I figure i'm doing my job right. (disclaimer: voke and flash are always cast when they are up. always. I won't however blow shield bash and sentinel to try and take hate.)

On the subject of PLD/healer relations, when i've supported a paladin, i usually won't cure them unless they're in the lower realm of yellow, or if i do cure them it's with light cures. The last thing i wanna do is overcast their cure and screw up their hate generation. Regen, however, is on that sucker 24/7.
#49 Jul 02 2009 at 3:28 AM Rating: Good
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I had an issue in a Lv57 party today, trying to hold hate from the ranger hitting 1450 with Sidewinder. o.o

It occured to me that in heavy DD parties, the job is not holding hate 100% of the time. That's impossible. (in some areas. I do it easily in Garlaige Citadel) Your job is to protect everyone and make sure no one dies.
#50 Jul 02 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here's what I wanna know:

Why is it that when I'm THF trying to stick TA on someone, it's always a tank that's standing as far away from the mob as humanly possible so I cannot; but when I'm PLD trying to Cover someone, it's always a melee that is standing at point-blank range from the mob so I can't get in front of him?

ARGHHASKJDHSAKJHA
#51 Jul 02 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Here's what I wanna know:

Why is it that when I'm THF trying to stick TA on someone, it's always a tank that's standing as far away from the mob as humanly possible so I cannot; but when I'm PLD trying to Cover someone, it's always a melee that is standing at point-blank range from the mob so I can't get in front of him?

ARGHHASKJDHSAKJHA


This probably won't suprise you, but the universe is actually collectively gathering it's energies to make your life in FFXI as hard as humanly possible. You'd be surprised how often it does this, actually. Why you specifically? Well, it might have been something you said to offend it, some action it found appalling, or perhaps it was just bored that day. Either way, it's out to get you, and you are *@$#&*'d. Good luck!
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