1
Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

I let melees dieFollow

#27 Mar 31 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
Dracoth wrote:
Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
Yeah I understood . . . but drk is muh baby! Smiley: nod

And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P
____________________________
Mistress Darqflame wrote:
Sorry, anything representing or remotely resembling a ***** is a nono.
gigasnail wrote:
i'm lighting the freak signal here, sara help me out ~
Redding wrote:
Same ol' Sara now with 50% less hidden *****
#28 Mar 31 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,722 posts
The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
Which, to be honest, he may have been doing. All I know is that he used both abilities fairly closely, positioned himself for cover to take effect, and stayed put til I got hate back (which, I either did, or the mob died, before he lost more than a little hp). It's been a while - all I know is he used the abilities while my cover was active.

My point is, I prefer DDs who push the line and know how to do so correctly over those who just go for epeen or hold themselves back because they're afraid of dying.
Yeah I understood . . . but drk is muh baby! Smiley: nod

And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P


So long as it results in higher XP/hr, it's perfect. There are lines that can be crossed, though, and as a DRK, you know what I'm talking about. I prefer the DDs to go all out, too, in reason, but if they can't toe the line, they aren't worth XPing with (in both senses of the phrase).
#29 Mar 31 2009 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,029 posts
Nowadays the killing speed of mobs is so fast than my PLD's job now is to only hold the mob briefly for the first few seconds, and then leave the Melee to tank briefly for the last few drops of life..
#30 Mar 31 2009 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
I say Death is the best lesson! Death to ignorant DDs!!!
____________________________
Calysto - Retired/Deleted/Restored/Deleted/LOST/Remade!
75PLD/37WAR - Gone
65RDM/32BLM/32WHM - Gone
28War/14Mnk - Newbiness again for the win!
TuathaDeDanaan Forever!!!
TheDarkTower
#31 Apr 01 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
It doesn't get better, let me tell you. Every party I've had the "pleasure" of joining has had a DD that can't control their hate and sucks at mitigating damage. I've had WAR/NINs that seem to think that once the mob comes in to Rampage it before I even fire off my first flash or any job ability. It's not bad because they can cast shadows, right? Well, only if they don't suck at casting it. ****, I had one that cast Utsusemi: Ni at the start of the party then never cast Ichi or Ni ever again.

I swear DDs never run behind the PLD when they grab hate. They either stay put and take the hits and expect to live without recasting shadows, or they run around like an idiot and kill themselves and others. ****, I had one idiot that ran straight into a group of Greater Colibri with everyone except for myself and the RDM following him, they all ate it hard. Apparently it was my fault for not initiating a legendary 4 person cover that, in the idiot SAMs words, "Only n00b PLDs don't use that uber skill n00b," grammar and spelling corrections applied to make it understandable.

If they pull hate, try to grab it back. If they fire off a high number WS at the start then usually I don't bother and if I grab hate I grab it, otherwise they can tank and/or die. Just make sure you tell them that if they grab hate to get behind you for cover, as chances are they'll be up on the mobs *** and you won't be able to get in front of them to cover them.
#32 Apr 01 2009 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
441 posts
WAR/NIN gets Utsusemi: Ni at level 74...so by that point it would be fair to say it's no longer a typical EXP party style but a merit party style. If that's the case, the WAR/NIN should be able to look after themselves with two sets of Utsusemi recast timers with Flash/Cover to compensate for the fast hit rate that Colibri have.

If it's a merit style party, the only way you'll increase net EXP/Limit points per hour is to increase DOT...which means melee DDs should WS closer to 100% as possible.

What I'm getting at is that by then, nobody really expects the Paladin to hold hate for more than a brief instance anyway...so you should concentrate on maximising your own DOT as well as supporting with Flash/Cure as necessary...and maybe using PLD/NIN if you have enough +acc/+haste%/+att to make it work.

As for idiotic party members...well, one explanation is that they're either unskilled, inattentive (multitasking ffxi) or using a 3rd party bot program. In which case, you'd be better off leaving the party anyway.
____________________________
War 75 Nin75 Sam75
#33 Apr 02 2009 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
22 posts
You would run into really experienced players and nice to PLD that they hold back.

I think it is justified to let that DD die if he repeats doing stupid things (e.g. last resort + souleater + weapon skill) at start. As a matter of fact, you won't be able to get hate back without using your 2hr if he has good equip.

As some other ppl said, it gets harder to hold hate at high level...so as long as the DDs are not intentionally 'show-off', losing hate once in a while is not a big deal.
#34 Apr 02 2009 at 6:47 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,722 posts
metade wrote:
You would run into really experienced players and nice to PLD that they hold back.

I think it is justified to let that DD die if he repeats doing stupid things (e.g. last resort + souleater + weapon skill) at start. As a matter of fact, you won't be able to get hate back without using your 2hr if he has good equip.

As some other ppl said, it gets harder to hold hate at high level...so as long as the DDs are not intentionally 'show-off', losing hate once in a while is not a big deal.


The later in levels you get, the less effective Invincible is. It doesn't even cap your hate level. It's quite possible to cap your VE hate on PLD through the use of Sentinel, Rampart, a flash or two, and a well placed cure. But, if the DD is really going balls out at the later levels, they're able to cap VE as well and probably have higher CE than you do, making it pointless. In that situation, Invincible wouldn't even turn the mob for a half second.
#35 Apr 02 2009 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
**
620 posts
Exceeding Invincible in a party of 6 only requires Sentinel>Rampart>Flash in quick succession(7960VE and 363CE by my calculation to Invincible's 7200VE 1CE). That's how tame Invincible is.

By comparison, a 1500 SE/LR Guillotine @75 will knock out 9530VE and 2307CE. Basically instant VE cap and masses of CE.


You'r best bet pulling that back (without 2-hour) would prolly be *Sentinel>Atonement>Flash> Hp-Swaps and CureIV spam.

*EDITED
Sentinel>Atonement alone is the equivalent of doing a 1500WS(assuming you hit the 750cap which I don't think you would without capped CE? I don't have it so I'm not 100% on it's mechanics). Flash will then cap your VE and put you 360CE above the DRK, the CureIVs maintaining your capped VE and increase CE.



Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 11:56am by bimrog
#36 Apr 02 2009 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
*
91 posts
Dracoth wrote:
My favorite DDs were the ones who knew when to pump out their damage. I had a DRK once who used Soul Eater + Last Resort before using his WS's. He'd send a single message over party chat and run behind me, fire off the abilities, and would stay put. I'd cover, and we'd go on our way. The mob would die fast, I'd still take the hits, and my cover macro would be up with plenty of time to ride it for what it was worth.


When I hit the Colibri levels and holding hate started to become more difficult, I would regularly "advertise" Cover to the DDs in the party. I found that many DDs were surprised that I even wanted to bother using Cover. Most of the time, once we got going and fell into a good rhythm of DDs signaling that they were about to take hate followed by me taking the hits for them they were very impressed and willing to accommodate.

The key to success for a PLD in these levels is taking as many hits as you can to mitigate as much damage as possible. In a fast paced experience party, timing your job abilities and WSs in conjunction with well timed Sentinels to maximized hate spikes goes a very long way.

I will say that the early Imp levels, at least for me, were much better in the hate keeping department. It's frustrating to be without Provoke, but at the same time your DDs can't WS either. As long as you have at least one good mage to stay on top of Silena as if her life depends on it, you'll have all the hate tools you need for the most part.
____________________________
Justiceblade
Server: Seraph
75 PLD, 75 THF, 37 WAR, 37 RDM, 37 NIN
Sandy Rank 10, CoP, RoZ Complete
#37 Apr 02 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
3,264 posts
I let melee die all the time, when tanking things endgame.

If they can't wait for me to Sentinel, Flash, Cure IV twice, Flash before unloading all they got, they can just die, and we do fine lacking a DD or two that can't wait 30 seconds.

Happened on Jailers last night, I popped Hope, and I was pulling him over just a bit south to where everyone was gathered, two melee ran up past everyone and started unloading on him, before he was even at camp.

They both died, I started my hate routine after Hope creamed them and ran to me at camp. Everyone in the LS knows not to support people that do stuff like this, just let them die, and the melee knew better but, they still did it.


Edited, Apr 2nd 2009 7:46pm by NCCoda
____________________________
Furionstormrage of Cerberus - PLD/WAR/RDM/NIN/WHM/DRK
PLD Equipment Guide
There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?
Ukonvasara, Hydra Haubert, Ares's Cuirass, Ebody, all thanks to awesome friends!
#38 Apr 02 2009 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
**
467 posts
The SillyXSara of Doom wrote:
And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me, it turns into a competition which creates more xp =P


I like this mindset and I've been trying to adopt it for myself. It certainly makes the party more fun when I view it as a competition instead of *sighing* and complaining to my LS about another crappy THF who can't get SATA ready before the mob creams the /WAR DD who's the first Provoke.

Although, I still do plenty of complaining to my LS >.<
____________________________
The devil's in the details...
#39 Apr 02 2009 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,722 posts
To be honest... I tell the THFs NOT to SATA, regardless of level. I've found it more effective to split the two, even before Assassin at 60. Sure, TA's not guaranteed to land before 60, but I don't worry about that as much. The increase in damage to the mob works great and most of the time, it's a **** of a lot easier to set up.

I WILL boot a THF who SATA's a DD at the start of the fight because they can't figure out how to separate the two...
#40 Apr 02 2009 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
**
712 posts
SillyXSara wrote:
And as I have been leveling pld I tell the melees to make me work and try to take hate off me

This is indeed made of win. Since all I did was pt during JP hours, and you know how they prefer subbing /nin to any job. I would have them come /war /drg /sam instead, provided that the sub was subtle and better than /nin.

I have never had so much fun exping on a job like I did on pld. It was beyond awesome. Funny enough, even though it was JP hours, my DD style of tanking was very accepted and welcomed more than it was questioned. I say this because a lot of pts that I have been in, if there is something they are not sure of they might not want to try it, a bit conservative maybe?

For me, I used to bring a few meds to help with mp, and refresh. I also setup everyones names into each of my cures, that way if they pulled hate id hit my macro and cure them very fast. Communication helps too, if the mages keep curing the DDs theyll just soak up emnity and take yours away.
____________________________
SERVER: IFRIT
WHM/BRD: Triangulum
PLD
MNK
SAM
BLM
DRK

#41 Apr 03 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
873 posts
Lwin wrote:
Nowadays the killing speed of mobs is so fast than my PLD's job now is to only hold the mob briefly for the first few seconds, and then leave the Melee to tank briefly for the last few drops of life..


This. Enjoy parties while you can; at meripo levels, you'll want a job besides PLD.
#42 Apr 04 2009 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
899 posts
I had so many problems with hate while lvling , most of my pts was very stressful to hold any hate , riding JA/Flash's timers while swapping all the enmity I have for both... and Melees wouldn't help at all.

Until I exped with Smart RDM that actually cast haste on me ( 1st haste 50-70...) and a BRD that actually keep melee buffs rather then Ballads when I didn't need, Really was shocked that I hold hate pretty easy as /NIN while keeping chain ... melees were /nin for a change to make it easier for RDM to haste/cure/silena.

Sure Party leader complained that exp was low ( eye-balling , we actually parsed ~3k exp more with no hate/mp issue with the same setup, could be better but had other pt close) but was one of the best pts I ever had XD.

Don't bother going turtle PLD while exping (one of my mistakes just to save myself from the "you taking too much dmg!" bs ), If you are expecting to "take so much dmg!" (due to over camping) then go /nin and demand melee's buffs (Haste, songs... personal opinion on /nin...) as it really hard to keep up with DDs if you are not viewed as DD by your support.
____________________________
Falasi of Bismarck.
THF75/WAR75/BLU75/RNG75/DRK75/MNK75/SAM66
ZM:done. PM:done. AM:done.
Assault: Captain
#43 Apr 06 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
I dont boot melees for taking hate, I boot melees if they aren't doing enough damage.

Before about 60 even a good DD who got SATA's at the start of the fight never held hate from me for more then an attack round or 2, post 60 if they are taking hate it's probably because we are killing the mobs in a minute or less, which is fine by me.

If you cant hold hate but your still doing endless chain5+, dont get butthurt just try to help heal and DD, cover as much as possible and enjoy your xp.

Honestly the DD's I have kicked were the ones I out-parsed or was about even with even though I was having to cure spam because the mob wasnt dieing fast enough.
____________________________
Mistress Darqflame wrote:
Sorry, anything representing or remotely resembling a ***** is a nono.
gigasnail wrote:
i'm lighting the freak signal here, sara help me out ~
Redding wrote:
Same ol' Sara now with 50% less hidden *****
#44 Apr 06 2009 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
*
65 posts
There's a saying I learned from WoW during my 6 month flirt with it that I really wish migrated over into FFXI.

If the tank dies, it's the healers fault.
If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault.
If the DPS dies, it's their own **** fault. (Obviously, this isn't counting AoEs)

I just finished 72 levels of crack leveling SCH and healers are in the same place as paladins are when it comes to the question: "Should I let the moron die..."

I can't honestly say 100% of them made it out alive. >.>;

It all really depends on the party. If the whole party kinda sucks (like you know you're gonna disband anyway because they're dumb) kill a few people, maybe they'll learn. If it's a good party that's got a moron in it, that's really up to how much that moron makes you hate them during the duration of the party.




Edited, Apr 6th 2009 1:58pm by Telmaski
____________________________
LS: Fairyfreelance
#45 Apr 06 2009 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
In a good party the tank should just barely hold more hate then the DD's because the DD's should be pumping out as much damage as they can get away with in order to kill faster and get more xp. THis means that if everyone is doing their job to optimal performance the DD's will be pushing right to the limit and will probably make the mob look them in the face on occasion, it's the tank's job to make sure the mob just takes a peek.
____________________________
Mistress Darqflame wrote:
Sorry, anything representing or remotely resembling a ***** is a nono.
gigasnail wrote:
i'm lighting the freak signal here, sara help me out ~
Redding wrote:
Same ol' Sara now with 50% less hidden *****
#46 Jun 15 2009 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
I know your pain, i also run into mages that like to keep me at 100% all the time and i cant use my cures to hold any hate. At lvl 64 i think everyone is far enough into the job to know whats what. But.... i still feel that im lacking something in a party when i cant keep hate. i like to dual box alot with my sam/thf and make sure i get hate with TA but its not always easy. but i just got back into PLD and im not sure what changes have been made and what i need to compinsate for now with new items, jobs, monsters, abilities and so on. Being away for awhile will do that, i guess im just behind the times.
____________________________
Steveo- 75war/75rdm/65pld. Steveosr- 60sam/60drg/57blu.
Unicorn- If anyone from the LS "The Followers" is still around look me up please.
#47 Jun 15 2009 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,252 posts
I just like beating that kind of DD at their own game.

Nothing sets hate like Sentinel>Warcry>Vorpal Blade in a hybrid/DD build.
____________________________
Verdha Tashon on Lamia <SWARM>
Waenlona Tofftoegwyn on Balmung <DE-RP>
Kekerana Nenerana on Sargatanas
#48 Jun 21 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
168 posts
When i take hate on samurai and die, i at least have the dignity to die standing behind the paladin. =3

I also have PLD52, so i totally hear where you're coming from. I think i'm one of the only people i've partied with in recent memory that remembers that cover exists. (Actually, yes i do always party with myself. lol@myphrasing) Usually when a DD takes hate, i more or less let them tank and heal them as they take damage. As long as no one dies, I figure i'm doing my job right. (disclaimer: voke and flash are always cast when they are up. always. I won't however blow shield bash and sentinel to try and take hate.)

On the subject of PLD/healer relations, when i've supported a paladin, i usually won't cure them unless they're in the lower realm of yellow, or if i do cure them it's with light cures. The last thing i wanna do is overcast their cure and ***** up their hate generation. Regen, however, is on that sucker 24/7.
#49 Jul 02 2009 at 3:28 AM Rating: Good
*
69 posts
I had an issue in a Lv57 party today, trying to hold hate from the ranger hitting 1450 with Sidewinder. o.o

It occured to me that in heavy DD parties, the job is not holding hate 100% of the time. That's impossible. (in some areas. I do it easily in Garlaige Citadel) Your job is to protect everyone and make sure no one dies.
#50 Jul 02 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,628 posts
Here's what I wanna know:

Why is it that when I'm THF trying to stick TA on someone, it's always a tank that's standing as far away from the mob as humanly possible so I cannot; but when I'm PLD trying to Cover someone, it's always a melee that is standing at point-blank range from the mob so I can't get in front of him?

ARGHHASKJDHSAKJHA
#51 Jul 02 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
**
486 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Here's what I wanna know:

Why is it that when I'm THF trying to stick TA on someone, it's always a tank that's standing as far away from the mob as humanly possible so I cannot; but when I'm PLD trying to Cover someone, it's always a melee that is standing at point-blank range from the mob so I can't get in front of him?

ARGHHASKJDHSAKJHA


This probably won't suprise you, but the universe is actually collectively gathering it's energies to make your life in FFXI as hard as humanly possible. You'd be surprised how often it does this, actually. Why you specifically? Well, it might have been something you said to offend it, some action it found appalling, or perhaps it was just bored that day. Either way, it's out to get you, and you are *@$#&*'d. Good luck!
____________________________
"Is it arrogant to quote myself?" -Warkupo
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)