Enmity generation as PLD/RDMFollow

Using Kanican tables and posts here, it's easy to see that /RDM has a bunch of great agro-generation tools... Blind (1 CE & 640 VE for 5 mp at 10 second recast), Bind (1 CE and 640 VE for 8 mp and 30 second recast), Poison (1 CE and 320 VE for 5 mp and 5 second recast), and Sleep (320 CE and 320 VE for 19 MP and 30 second recast).

So generally, it seems like /RDM will consistently outperform /WAR for VE and CE generation, in addition to having much better survivability -- but is this always the case? I've been focusing on preparing for endgame by finishing nyzul/COP/RZ/merits/etc., but I haven't really done anything yet. Given that, I'm wondering why anyone uses /WAR at all, other than a few offensive abilities and Defender (bleh). If something's beating on you so fast that shadows don't help, or hitting you with nonstop shadow-wiping attacks, then why not just come PLD/RDM?

Also, a more specific question: do I need to have high or capped Enfeebling Skill for the above numbers to be correct? I capped my enhancing skill, which seems to be the most important /RDM trait, but my enfeebling is low. I plan to raise it eventually, just for RDM's sake, but in the meantime, is it gimping my sub? Note -- I obviously know that *sticking* Bio II or Gravity would be much more valuable than being resisted all the time, but I'm just asking about generating agro... especially because I'd like to start low-manning some ZNMs like Chigre, for which /RDM would be ideal for damage mitigation, but I worry about enmity generation issues.

You forgot one of /rdm's bread and butter spells, dispel.

You could have 0 enfeebling skill and all your spells would still have the same hate attached to them. /war is really extremely outdated and can't hold a candle to /rdm or /drk for blood-tank hate generation.

PLD/NIN still wins because not taking any damage is better than taking reduced damage through Stoneskin/Phalanx. Stoneskin's casting time is such that in some fights, it's harder to reliably get up.

The rule for me is when I'm fighting a magic heavy mob, I come PLD/RDM. When I'm fighting a physical heavy mob, I come PLD/NIN. If in doubt, I side to /NIN, but I'm always willing to try both.

That's a fair point, as well. I haven't fought Chigre yet, but from what I've heard, he doesn't always hit that hard, anyway. /RDM will certainly benefit you more for a fight like that, sure. Paralyze/blind/slow/elegy/etc will certainly help a lot, too, for either sub.

I've always found /RDM to be superior to /WAR for bloodtanking, and if anything is absolutely shredding shadows to the point of /NIN being completely useless I'll default to /RDM for that fight.

The only thing that we bloodtank that I haven't gone /RDM to is Prudence, mainly because we don't fight him that often and the last I went PLD/WAR he was an absolute joke to tank. (I originally went PLD/NIN and that was a mistake, /NIN is worthless on him)

I'll go /RDM next time for the superior hate generation.

(Funny story, our THF made a mistake on the sac pull and the 2nd copy came after me, so I just held it super-tank style while still co-tanking the first copy, then killed the second copy, it was perfectly manageable with Defender, Minne x2 and Phalanx 2. Most hits were double digit, shield blocks were 0 or single digit until one copy died, after that it was more damage taken but not enough to cause a single problem.)

With Prudence's SA tele business I'ld lean toward /war. Anything where you're moving a lot of losing target you want the most bang for your buck.

Voke is 1800 every ~30 secs and is instant. Coupled with Flash you're getting two big actions in every 30 seconds. That gives you time for cures and other abilities.

/rdm means you need to be casting spells every other second. Alternating sleep and dispel (your only CE spells from /rdm) with blind/bind (640) and then filling in the other time with fast and lower VE spells (300/320). If you don't need resists I'ld lean toward barspells since they give 300 (so you can ele wheel them) and otherwise poison works as well.

With shield mastery and aquaveil your casting should be pretty hard to interrupt to get off a random stoneskin or blink.

JoL resists Dispel quite a bit!

or if you're lucky and /rdm purely for phalanx EG wise, just bring along a fully merited phalanx II rdm! and /war for defender, cause honestly eg if you're fighint somthing that you can't damage that well you're probably getting SATA+WS'd? and if shadows are dropping faster than casting, Defender + Phalanx 2 ftw! (i guess im the only rdm addicted to fully merited phalanx 2 but ohh well, I just love me pally's that much)

I love Phalanx 2, but I'm not going /RDM for Phalanx alone.

PLD/RDM has WAY more hate tools than /WAR, it especially excels in a Crowd Control situation.

PLD/WAR can Voke one mob, Flash another, Cure the sleeper, and that's about it beyond standing around worthless while waiting on recasts.

PLD/RDM can Cure the sleeper, spam Barspells, and have any size wave of mobs glued to them and them alone, meaning large pulls are no problem and your sleepers don't have to worry about dying.

In a one-mob fight, PLD/RDM has Flash/Blind/Bind/Sleep/Dispel/Poison/Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink. That's world better for building hate and staying alive than Provoke and Flash, Warcry every 5 minutes, and Defender.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:55am by NCCoda

Because, /rdm is more of an endurance sub, while /war is an offensive sub. In parties, provided that you arent over camping, you wont be getting hit hard enough to need to survive over what your shield skill/sentinel/Shieldbash/cures are already providing. With /war you will be providing more damage, allowing faster kills, which in turn kills the mob, giving you 3 things, less reason for survivability, more hate, and more exp.

Dont get me wrong though, there are situations where you can pull off pld/rdm in pts. You wont pull out as much damage though, but if holding hate is all you care about(w/e floats your boat) than its doable, Ive seen a couple of taru pld/rdms pull it off nicely in certain camps. Doesnt mean /war wouldnt of worked either though

/NIN is absolutely worthless for some fights.

Jailer of Prudence, most kited fights, even Odin is questionable.

So if /NIN isn't an option because the mob is making shadows unreliable, or you're not getting hit while kiting, you have the option of /RDM or /WAR or /DRK even.

/WAR gives you Provoke and one hate JA every 5 minutes.

/RDM gives you tons of hate spells that can be spammed almost instantly on top of each other, building up MUCH more VE and CE than /WAR could ever hope to provide.

Same thing with /DRK, /RDM just offers more defensive spells at the expense of less VE spikes (which you shouldn't need anyway).


And for ACP, PLD/WAR is as bad as PLD/NIN, PLD/RDM gets more hate tools, self-Phalanx, and one level of Magic Defense Bonus. And that's all that matters in the ACP final mission, keep hate and drop the magic damage you take to a minimum.

As stated, enfeeble hate applies the same regardless of success (Dispel and buff removed, Dispel and resist, Dispel and no effect... doesn't matter). Stack that CE up!

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 8:45pm by Fynlar

Little late to the thread, but something to consider:

When you're taking damage by blood tanking, you need to work hard at keeping CE up...

For example if you have 1500 hp and you take 400 damage and cure4 it back, you just lost almost 200 CE.

CE Lost = 1800 * damage/total hp = 1800 * 400/1500 = 480 CE lost

CE from curing 400 hp = .727 * 400 = 290 CE gained


So generally as /RDM you don't want to spend most of your mp curing yourself as it isn't very efficient CE wise, and concentrate on Dispel/Sleep/Sleep2 rotations.