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Enmity generation as PLD/RDMFollow

#1 Jun 23 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Using Kanican tables and posts here, it's easy to see that /RDM has a bunch of great agro-generation tools... Blind (1 CE & 640 VE for 5 mp at 10 second recast), Bind (1 CE and 640 VE for 8 mp and 30 second recast), Poison (1 CE and 320 VE for 5 mp and 5 second recast), and Sleep (320 CE and 320 VE for 19 MP and 30 second recast).

So generally, it seems like /RDM will consistently outperform /WAR for VE and CE generation, in addition to having much better survivability -- but is this always the case? I've been focusing on preparing for endgame by finishing nyzul/COP/RZ/merits/etc., but I haven't really done anything yet. Given that, I'm wondering why anyone uses /WAR at all, other than a few offensive abilities and Defender (bleh). If something's beating on you so fast that shadows don't help, or hitting you with nonstop shadow-wiping attacks, then why not just come PLD/RDM?

Also, a more specific question: do I need to have high or capped Enfeebling Skill for the above numbers to be correct? I capped my enhancing skill, which seems to be the most important /RDM trait, but my enfeebling is low. I plan to raise it eventually, just for RDM's sake, but in the meantime, is it gimping my sub? Note -- I obviously know that *sticking* Bio II or Gravity would be much more valuable than being resisted all the time, but I'm just asking about generating agro... especially because I'd like to start low-manning some ZNMs like Chigre, for which /RDM would be ideal for damage mitigation, but I worry about enmity generation issues.
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#2 Jun 23 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Whether or not an enfeeble lands has no effect on its hate generation. In fact, you can even cast enfeebles that are already on the mob and they still generate normal hate.

PLD/RDM probably isn't going to be sticking Gravity on anything that can kill them, but Dia/Bio never miss.
#3 Jun 23 2009 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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You forgot one of /rdm's bread and butter spells, dispel.

You could have 0 enfeebling skill and all your spells would still have the same hate attached to them. /war is really extremely outdated and can't hold a candle to /rdm or /drk for blood-tank hate generation.
#5 Jun 23 2009 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You forgot one of /rdm's bread and butter spells, dispel.


Another bonus is that, despite PLD/RDM's shoddy Enfeebling score, this is one of your only enfeebles (other than Dia) that will actually still land reliably, at least on stuff that isn't dark-resistant.
#6 Jun 23 2009 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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soopafeen wrote:
If something's beating on you so fast that shadows don't help, or hitting you with nonstop shadow-wiping attacks, then why not just come PLD/RDM?


PLD/NIN still wins because not taking any damage is better than taking reduced damage through Stoneskin/Phalanx. Stoneskin's casting time is such that in some fights, it's harder to reliably get up.

The rule for me is when I'm fighting a magic heavy mob, I come PLD/RDM. When I'm fighting a physical heavy mob, I come PLD/NIN. If in doubt, I side to /NIN, but I'm always willing to try both.
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#7 Jun 23 2009 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
soopafeen wrote:
If something's beating on you so fast that shadows don't help, or hitting you with nonstop shadow-wiping attacks, then why not just come PLD/RDM?


PLD/NIN still wins because not taking any damage is better than taking reduced damage through Stoneskin/Phalanx. Stoneskin's casting time is such that in some fights, it's harder to reliably get up.

The rule for me is when I'm fighting a magic heavy mob, I come PLD/RDM. When I'm fighting a physical heavy mob, I come PLD/NIN. If in doubt, I side to /NIN, but I'm always willing to try both.


But don't (and this is an honest question, I really don't know) some mobs hit so fast that shadows just don't matter? For example, Chigre is said to have something akin to "latent hundred fists." If I'm taking a shot every 1.5 seconds or so, for like 40 damage a shot (like those gnats in Campaign), it seems like it'd be better to take 21 damage per shot (assuming max Enhancing Magic skill) via Phalanx. This would seem to apply even more if you're kiting something around, such that you don't get many opportunities to cast (and Phalanx may thus give more bang for your buck there), or if you're supertanking several mobs and shadows are wiped away almost as soon as they're cast -- just as they would be if you were fighting a magic heavy mob whose -agas were doing the same.

Final thought: I don't have Homam gear or a Swift Belt yet, and it seems that might make a difference. /RDM can certainly benefit from those things too, but, unlike shadows, Phalanx's recast time isn't as limiting in certain situations.
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#8 Jun 23 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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That's a fair point, as well. I haven't fought Chigre yet, but from what I've heard, he doesn't always hit that hard, anyway. /RDM will certainly benefit you more for a fight like that, sure. Paralyze/blind/slow/elegy/etc will certainly help a lot, too, for either sub.
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#9 Jun 23 2009 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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You shouldn't be tanking Chigre anyway since a merit style party of 6 can down it pretty quickly with no trouble. His hp and defense is pathetic.

The question with /rdm usually doesn't rely so much on speed of attacks, as how hard the mob hits. /rdm always wins in the hate department so if the mobs attacks aren't great enough to be dangerous (ixion, fafhogg, turtle if your gear is good, most weaker NMs like simurgh and some znms, etc etc) then you're better off with /rdm.

Its also dependent on your gear making the mob hit weak enough to use /rdm. If you're a fresh 75 with little to no merits wearing mostly adaman and af1, you can't go and tank something like Fafnir while /rdm. It takes some commonsense to make it work.
#10 Jun 23 2009 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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I've always found /RDM to be superior to /WAR for bloodtanking, and if anything is absolutely shredding shadows to the point of /NIN being completely useless I'll default to /RDM for that fight.

The only thing that we bloodtank that I haven't gone /RDM to is Prudence, mainly because we don't fight him that often and the last I went PLD/WAR he was an absolute joke to tank. (I originally went PLD/NIN and that was a mistake, /NIN is worthless on him)

I'll go /RDM next time for the superior hate generation.

(Funny story, our THF made a mistake on the sac pull and the 2nd copy came after me, so I just held it super-tank style while still co-tanking the first copy, then killed the second copy, it was perfectly manageable with Defender, Minne x2 and Phalanx 2. Most hits were double digit, shield blocks were 0 or single digit until one copy died, after that it was more damage taken but not enough to cause a single problem.)
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#11 Jun 25 2009 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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/RDM is more intensive on your MP pool than other subs, so you should keep in mind what kind of Refresh support you'll have available. But in general, if you (and your healer's MP pool) can survive without shadows, /RDM wins because it lets you set a higher hate threshold, allowing your DDs to unload more, killing the mob faster... think Dia vs Bio.
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#12 Jun 25 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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With Prudence's SA tele business I'ld lean toward /war. Anything where you're moving a lot of losing target you want the most bang for your buck.

Voke is 1800 every ~30 secs and is instant. Coupled with Flash you're getting two big actions in every 30 seconds. That gives you time for cures and other abilities.

/rdm means you need to be casting spells every other second. Alternating sleep and dispel (your only CE spells from /rdm) with blind/bind (640) and then filling in the other time with fast and lower VE spells (300/320). If you don't need resists I'ld lean toward barspells since they give 300 (so you can ele wheel them) and otherwise poison works as well.

With shield mastery and aquaveil your casting should be pretty hard to interrupt to get off a random stoneskin or blink.

JoL resists Dispel quite a bit!
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#13 Jun 25 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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The best thing about Dispel is the tiny recast, which is so short that for fights where you're not physically being hit by a mob you can totally forget haste gear and just cover yourself in protection and enmity at all times. It makes hate generation for kited, "mob is glued in place," or "sleep them on the ground" fights really, really easy.
#14 Jun 29 2009 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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or if you're lucky and /rdm purely for phalanx EG wise, just bring along a fully merited phalanx II rdm! and /war for defender, cause honestly eg if you're fighint somthing that you can't damage that well you're probably getting SATA+WS'd? and if shadows are dropping faster than casting, Defender + Phalanx 2 ftw! (i guess im the only rdm addicted to fully merited phalanx 2 but ohh well, I just love me pally's that much)
#15 Jun 29 2009 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Inuyushi wrote:
or if you're lucky and /rdm purely for phalanx EG wise, just bring along a fully merited phalanx II rdm! and /war for defender, cause honestly eg if you're fighint somthing that you can't damage that well you're probably getting SATA+WS'd? and if shadows are dropping faster than casting, Defender + Phalanx 2 ftw! (i guess im the only rdm addicted to fully merited phalanx 2 but ohh well, I just love me pally's that much)


WTF game are you playing where a pld/rdm needs to be SATA'ed to keep hate on? PLD never needs TA to keep hate on anything off anything, this is twice as true while a pld is /rdm.
#16 Jun 29 2009 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I love Phalanx 2, but I'm not going /RDM for Phalanx alone.

PLD/RDM has WAY more hate tools than /WAR, it especially excels in a Crowd Control situation.

PLD/WAR can Voke one mob, Flash another, Cure the sleeper, and that's about it beyond standing around worthless while waiting on recasts.

PLD/RDM can Cure the sleeper, spam Barspells, and have any size wave of mobs glued to them and them alone, meaning large pulls are no problem and your sleepers don't have to worry about dying.

In a one-mob fight, PLD/RDM has Flash/Blind/Bind/Sleep/Dispel/Poison/Phalanx/Stoneskin/Blink. That's world better for building hate and staying alive than Provoke and Flash, Warcry every 5 minutes, and Defender.

Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:55am by NCCoda
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#17 Jun 30 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
Hey guys,

After reading this one thing came to mind.....

Why do i sub war for parties if /rdm is that much better?
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#18 Jun 30 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Steveosr wrote:
Hey guys,

After reading this one thing came to mind.....

Why do i sub war for parties if /rdm is that much better?

Because, /rdm is more of an endurance sub, while /war is an offensive sub. In parties, provided that you arent over camping, you wont be getting hit hard enough to need to survive over what your shield skill/sentinel/Shieldbash/cures are already providing. With /war you will be providing more damage, allowing faster kills, which in turn kills the mob, giving you 3 things, less reason for survivability, more hate, and more exp.

Dont get me wrong though, there are situations where you can pull off pld/rdm in pts. You wont pull out as much damage though, but if holding hate is all you care about(w/e floats your boat) than its doable, Ive seen a couple of taru pld/rdms pull it off nicely in certain camps. Doesnt mean /war wouldnt of worked either though
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#19 Jun 30 2009 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Also /rdm doesn't have any big spike abilities like /war has with provoke. In a 2 minute race /rdm would come out ahead. In a 30 second race, /war wins barely. /rdm is also much more MP intensive so it needs more support than a typical xp party can muster.

/war's only redeeming quality really, is its a decent spike hate that lets you tank for -extremely- short periods of time with no mp cost, which a successful xp party is lots of small and quick fights strung together.
#20Eladriek, Posted: Jun 30 2009 at 10:03 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Huh...
#21 Jun 30 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Eladriek wrote:
Huh...

If you use PLD/RDM in an EXP party you're just giving yourself more work.

Voke,flash,cures is all you need to keep hate most of the time.

Hell, I don't even know where PLD/RDM comes from...

I never had any problems keeping hate as PLD/NIN, so why would /WAR be any different in the long term? /WAR beats /RDM imo where /NIN dosen't shine.

Yes, even for ACP.


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#22 Jun 30 2009 at 2:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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/NIN is absolutely worthless for some fights.

Jailer of Prudence, most kited fights, even Odin is questionable.

So if /NIN isn't an option because the mob is making shadows unreliable, or you're not getting hit while kiting, you have the option of /RDM or /WAR or /DRK even.

/WAR gives you Provoke and one hate JA every 5 minutes.

/RDM gives you tons of hate spells that can be spammed almost instantly on top of each other, building up MUCH more VE and CE than /WAR could ever hope to provide.

Same thing with /DRK, /RDM just offers more defensive spells at the expense of less VE spikes (which you shouldn't need anyway).


And for ACP, PLD/WAR is as bad as PLD/NIN, PLD/RDM gets more hate tools, self-Phalanx, and one level of Magic Defense Bonus. And that's all that matters in the ACP final mission, keep hate and drop the magic damage you take to a minimum.
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#23 Jul 02 2009 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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One additional question. Kanican's enmity table shows Dispel as generating a staggering 320 CE. The VE it generates is comparable to that of other spells, and at a much higher MP cost. However, 320 CE is crazy... does that only apply if you actually dispel something, or? Same question applies to Sleep. Should these 2 be our go-to non-cure enmity spells, with alternating Blind/Bind/Poison/Flash in between?

For those who need the link: http://kanican.livejournal.com/20125.html.
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#24 Jul 02 2009 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
One additional question. Kanican's enmity table shows Dispel as generating a staggering 320 CE. The VE it generates is comparable to that of other spells, and at a much higher MP cost. However, 320 CE is crazy... does that only apply if you actually dispel something, or? Same question applies to Sleep. Should these 2 be our go-to non-cure enmity spells, with alternating Blind/Bind/Poison/Flash in between?


As stated, enfeeble hate applies the same regardless of success (Dispel and buff removed, Dispel and resist, Dispel and no effect... doesn't matter). Stack that CE up!

Edited, Jul 2nd 2009 8:45pm by Fynlar
#25 Jul 02 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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Only reason to /war over /rdm is if you don't have the refresh power to maintain pld/rdm's hate rotation. In general if you have 2 forms of refresh, /RDM is superior. In most XP parties you'll have RDM at best, so /WAR is better there because voke has no MP cost, and the fights are short enough for voke not to decay.
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#26 Jul 08 2009 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Little late to the thread, but something to consider:

When you're taking damage by blood tanking, you need to work hard at keeping CE up...

For example if you have 1500 hp and you take 400 damage and cure4 it back, you just lost almost 200 CE.

CE Lost = 1800 * damage/total hp = 1800 * 400/1500 = 480 CE lost

CE from curing 400 hp = .727 * 400 = 290 CE gained


So generally as /RDM you don't want to spend most of your mp curing yourself as it isn't very efficient CE wise, and concentrate on Dispel/Sleep/Sleep2 rotations.
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