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Enmity+ with Flash?Follow

#1 Jul 15 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Hi I wanted to ask if stacking Enmity+ and using Flash is good. I was building a Enmity+ macro gear set and wanted to know if using Flash with full Enmity gear on is worth it. Mind you I keep the Homam legs on full time and use my Nuevo Coselete with "Fast Cast+5" and Enmity+5 full time on. Hope I can get an answer thank you! ^_^
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#2 Jul 15 2009 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
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If all you care about is hate generation, then it's not hard to look at your gear and do the math to see whether +enmity will get you more hate overall than haste gear and casting the spell more often.

However, I get the impression that most PLDs focus on lowered recast with Flash, and enmity elsewhere. Personally, I'd generally prefer to cast the spell more often than get more enmity from each cast. I'm less concerned with mp-conservation and more interested in the flexibility to cast more often around my other hate tools, and to actually get the effect of Flash on the mob as much as possible.
#3bimrog, Posted: Jul 16 2009 at 1:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Apparantly you don't deserve them. You buy you'r account? or just manage to lvl Paladin without actually knowing anything.
#4 Jul 16 2009 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Bimrog.. chill bro
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#5bimrog, Posted: Jul 16 2009 at 4:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=306971#item_sets
#6 Jul 16 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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bimrog wrote:
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Bimrog.. chill bro

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=306971#item_sets

Check it, the guy who asked this question isn't feasibly the same person. And if it is...wtf.
Not to belittle the OP, and maybe I'm blind, but what exactly is it in his gear setup that screams that he should know everything about the game?

Is it the one piece of Homam?

Besides that, there will almost never be a point in your playtime when you know absolutely everything about everything, cause as soon as you do, the majority changes what the "know" is. Few years ago it was Def/Vit or bust for Pld, Evasion for Nin, now it's DD for both. I don't think his question is unreasonable.

To the OP, when I cast spells on Pld I fill slots that have haste available with haste or fast cast, those that don't with enmity.
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#7 Jul 16 2009 at 4:56 AM Rating: Default
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Sorry, it was my assumption that this:

Quote:
To the OP, when I cast spells on Pld I fill slots that have haste available with haste or fast cast, those that don't with enmity.


Was common knowledge, and has been for years. I knew this before I even leveled Paladin. The fact that he was already in posession of endgame PLD gear, much of which would take a considerable amount of time to acquire (whether good or bad), and yet didn't posess this knowledge the entire time.....Just boggled my mind. I certainly could have been more civil about it I'm sure.

It was probably the fact he didn't even mention haste in his question that did it for me. "at what point does enmity gear excede haste/fast cast gear" would've been an almost acceptable question (the answer being once you hit recast cap @50%). But simply "I wanted to ask if stacking Enmity+ and using Flash is good" is borderline retarded. That's like saying "should I stack INT for BLM nukes". See I've stopped being civil again >.< bad day.
#8 Jul 16 2009 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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back in the day VIT and DEF onry. a DD pld was kicked from parties because "URDOINITWRONG".

ah I miss those days...
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Quote a few months before the mass salvage banning:
couerlmaster wrote:
And stfu with the banstick, this is hardly traceable and so widespread throughout the EG community there's nothing SE can do w/o banning half the EG community on every server


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O8qb58bHY
#9 Jul 16 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jesus blmrog, who ****** in your Corn Flakes this morning?

To answer your question, OP, you will get more hate over time by stacking Haste until your Flash recast is capped (22 seconds), than by casting it every 45 in full Enmity.

Go full Haste/FastCast, then whatever slots you don't have Haste or Fast Cast, stick Enmity.

Looking at your PLD/NIN Casting set on FFXIAH.com, I would recommend Dusk Feet (Homam being superior for Hands/Feet, but Dusk fills the bill until then quite nicely), Harmonia's Torque or Ritter Gorget, some kind of Enmity back piece (Valor, Cerberus, Resentment), and a Blitz Ring (Or a Hercules' if Blitz is out of your price range). You could get a Hades/+1 or try for an Augmented Enmity earring. (I haven't done this myself).
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#10 Jul 16 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But simply "I wanted to ask if stacking Enmity+ and using Flash is good" is borderline retarded. That's like saying "should I stack INT for BLM nukes"

Except that... the simple answer is, "No, you want to stack haste." And the more nuanced response is, "Maybe, depending on what you're trying to achieve."

I don't see how you can be having a fit about the Op's question when you don't seem to understand yourself. Maximum hate generation, max mp conservation, and max hate tool flexibility all give potentially different answers here.
#11 Jul 16 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Maximum hate generation, max mp conservation, and max hate tool flexibility all give potentially different answers here.


What? what has this got todo with anything I said? The reference I made to BLM stacking INT was to make a point, nothing more. I was in no way implying it was the same deal aside from in it's obviousness, though it's really not that dissimilar an answer.
The simple answer would have been "No, you want to stack MAB." And the more nuanced response is, "Maybe, depending on what you're trying to achieve."

OP didnt mention max hate generation, mp conservation OR "hate tool flexibility" whatever it is that's supposed to mean. Simply "if stacking Enmity+ and using Flash is good" or even simpler "Does the stat that generates more hate....generate more hate". And this question is supposedly coming from an endgame Paladin.


Let's have a look at why I thought his question was stupid:

*Guy(or gal) opens Paladin forum to ask a question that has likely been answered a thousand times, and is probably(definately) obvious.
*Reads the sticky "Paladin Forum Index"
*Sees the first link is "HNM Tanking as PLD/NIN- A Beginner's F.A.Q." or the PLD/NIN guide on FFXIclopedia, or pretty much any PLD/NIN guide.
*Reads and realizes it pretty much answers extensively in laymans terms exactly why Haste is better for the slots you can fit it and enmity everywhere else.
*Sees the alla guide was posted in 2007 and doesn't ask his question, prolly laughing at his own stupidty while moving on.

Sorry that's what SHOULD have happened.


What did happen, everyone fed a troll and rated down the one person who didn't.
Why did this anger me so much? read my sig :P
#12 Jul 16 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
What did happen, everyone fed a troll and rated down the one person who didn't.

Actually, they rated down the one person whose answer was woefully, almost negligently, incomplete.

Here's a thought. If someone asks, "Is this good?" the useful response is not "yes"; the useful response is, "What do you mean by good, and what are you trying to achieve?"

Here's another thought. Even if the Op is trolling, his question is related to concerns that new-to-endgame PLDs might have. Therefore it doesn't matter whether the Op is genuine or not -- someone else could very easily get some useful information out of a good answer.
#13 Jul 16 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Here's another thought. Even if the Op is trolling, his question is related to concerns that new-to-endgame PLDs might have. Therefore it doesn't matter whether the Op is genuine or not -- someone else could very easily get some useful information out of a good answer.


Or they could just read the stickies
#14 Jul 16 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
Therefore it doesn't matter whether the Op is genuine or not -- someone else could very easily get some useful information out of a good answer.
Yeah that;

Look, this game is old. Things don't change that often, and when they do, they don't change much. These forums are often filled with redundant, repetitive questions that we've all seen dozens of times. It's unavoidable.

I've BEEN that person who've clicked on a topic and thought, omg "READ THE STICKY". Then there are times when these forums, and similar ones, go weeks at a time without new posts, or if they do have posts they are woefully boring. Which do we want, a dead forum, or people asking questions? The ones who know their sh*t can only parrot the same sh*t to each other so many times before we run out of stuff to say.

Forums, for better or worse, FEED on people who are to lazy to look up their own info. We, the ones who check here every couple hours for new posts, should be happy to see new posts. Shouldn't matter if it's old questions or not. What the **** else are we going to talk about?

-Attached- I also realize that I am not a revolutionary thinker who had an epiphany about the inner workings of forums. Someone, somewhere at sometime has tried to reason with gruff forum regulars before to no avail. I also know the reality of the fact that I will at one time or another reclaim the frustration of seeing the same question and blow the **** up at someone on this very forum. Today I just felt more helpful than grumpy.

I just know though that many of the people who get overly frustrated with these repetitive questions check the forums dozens of times a day, hoping for new posts. I just wonder what it is they expect to find about a game this old.

bimrog wrote:
Quote:

Here's another thought. Even if the Op is trolling, his question is related to concerns that new-to-endgame PLDs might have. Therefore it doesn't matter whether the Op is genuine or not -- someone else could very easily get some useful information out of a good answer.


Or they could just read the stickies
How bout ***** you in the mouth? Is that what you want, a flame war?

Look at the forums, what else would you be replying to if not for this thread? Some other person asking some other tired question about something that has been asked a couple years ago. Reading stickies is boring, so people don't do it. Whats more, those stickies you keep pointing to, you know where the info contained came from? Yeah, tired *** discussions, **** mulled over time after time till we got it hashed out over countless threads.

Edited, Jul 16th 2009 3:26pm by Bauran
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#15 Jul 16 2009 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty simple rule I go by is this:

+1 Haste > +2 Fast Cast > +2 Emn

So the items off the top of my head I would use.

Hades Earring +1 over loq. (I don't have a +1 so I use a loq.)
Hercules Ring over Blitz

Everything else is haste over emn.

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#16 Jul 16 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Bimrog is an idiot...
#17 Jul 16 2009 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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It was not so long ago that Paladin believed /war was the only sub, DEF and VIT where king, and Earth Staves where the only weapon you should even consider beyond level 51. As the game began to change, people learned how to utilize Paladin more effectively. Even though we thought we knew how to best use the job, they still shared their knowledge and we listened. The point is, just because you are confident you know something, doesn't mean you should shut yourself off to the opinions of others. Never be so sure in what you know that you stop asking questions, as that's the greatest folly you can make. The only way to really know anything is to know that you know nothing.

Jumping to conclusions and calling the OP a troll because you think something is common knowledge is not only idiotic, it's damning for the whole community.
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#18 Jul 17 2009 at 4:34 AM Rating: Good
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How exactly is anything supposed to be common knowledge if we yell and insult the people that are trying to learn?
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#19 Jul 17 2009 at 4:51 AM Rating: Good
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SaionDenkou wrote:
Hi I wanted to ask if stacking Enmity+ and using Flash is good.


Yes, it is very good. It is one of your best enmity tools.

SaionDenkou wrote:
I was building a Enmity+ macro gear set and wanted to know if using Flash with full Enmity gear on is worth it.


Put haste wherever you can. Where you cant put haste, put enmity.


SaionDenkou wrote:
Mind you I keep the Homam legs on full time


Swap in your enmity piece for provoke, sentinel, shield bash and any other enmity JAs

SaionDenkou wrote:
and use my Nuevo Coselete with "Fast Cast+5" and Enmity+5 full time on. Hope I can get an answer thank you! ^_^


That is bad. You should be using a haubargeon full time, and just swapping in that Nuevo for your your flashes, cures and enmity JAs.
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#20 Jul 17 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eurell wrote:
How exactly is anything supposed to be common knowledge if we yell and insult the people that are trying to learn?


It makes people like blmrog feel better about themselves.
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#21 Jul 17 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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What I'm currently Using.

Rule of thumb = Haste where you can, enmity where there's no haste.

Upgrades would be Nuevo Body and Homam Hands. Doubt I'll ever get a Hades Earring, but there's no Haste for that slot either, but now that I think of it Loquacious will stack with any haste you already have, so it's a pretty relevant piece for a flash macro. Sattava/ Mermaid Ring in place of my Rajas. B.Mask vs Turban is a toss up, depending on buffs. Maca +1 if you're not meleeing, otherwise bust out full DD + Joyeuse assuming you've got shadows up.
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#22 Jul 17 2009 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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TurboTom wrote:
What I'm currently Using.

Rule of thumb = Haste where you can, enmity where there's no haste.

Upgrades would be Nuevo Body and Homam Hands. Doubt I'll ever get a Hades Earring, but there's no Haste for that slot either, but now that I think of it Loquacious will stack with any haste you already have, so it's a pretty relevant piece for a flash macro. Sattava/ Mermaid Ring in place of my Rajas. B.Mask vs Turban is a toss up, depending on buffs. Maca +1 if you're not meleeing, otherwise bust out full DD + Joyeuse assuming you've got shadows up.


Even if you're rocking Haste and 2 Marches, you'd be better served in any fight lasting over a few minutes to swap to Turban to cap your recast completely, or grab some Dusk Gloves and a Blitz Ring to get 1% off cap.

As much as it sucks relegating it to JA and Cure use, my Hydra Haubert is, on paper, outclassed by an Enmity/Fast Cast Neuvo. Capping your recasts and using Flash every 22 seconds outweighs casting it ever 28-30 seconds in 10 more Enmity (Which is your situation at the moment).
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#23 Jul 17 2009 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see how you can possibly not have Nuevo. I know a handful of folks on ACP 11 first try, I can help too if you want but I don't think 2 PLDs is a great idea for that fight. I could come DRG, but >.>

Dusk gloves (you already have I think?), Loq Earring and Nuevo and you'd be pimpin pretty well while keeping the Bmask.

Edited, Jul 18th 2009 5:11am by Yashnaheen
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#24 Jul 17 2009 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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NCCoda wrote:
my Hydra Haubert is, on paper, outclassed by an Enmity/Fast Cast Neuvo.

uh, bolded for ppl to acknowledge that only with your gear is fast cast neuvo better, generally with the reg. cookie cutter gear + double marches, Hydra beats out Neuvo regardless of the combo you can think of. The difference will be capped recasts on both sides, but 2 more enmity on the hydra set

Bmask
ritter
hades+1
loquacious >>>>> Hades +1
Hydra >>>>>>>>>> ACP body
Homam
Hercules
Mermaid
Cerb+1
V.Belt
Homam
Hydra feet

Ofcourse I went for the best only because thats where hydra shines more, with better gear. However you dont need hydra or vbelt for it to win, IR feet and swift are just fine, both gear pieces will look different as youll need to move gears around again, but the outcome is the same, hydra ftw.

So where does ACP win over hydra? anytime you cant get double marches. or you dont have all 3/5 of homam. Like I noticed with Fury, he doesnt have the pants yet, so ACP would win out at the moment over hydra.

And imo theres no reason to want to find alternative pieces to not have double marches, as marches do more than help reduce your recasts............that should be obvious to all...
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#25 Jul 20 2009 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:

As much as it sucks relegating it to JA and Cure use, my Hydra Haubert is, on paper, outclassed by an Enmity/Fast Cast Neuvo. Capping your recasts and using Flash every 22 seconds outweighs casting it ever 28-30 seconds in 10 more Enmity (Which is your situation at the moment).


How do you figure that Nccoda? I agree with you 100% in regard to your Enmity over time point, but explain how a paltry 5% FC is making that much of a difference to beat +4enmity doesn't add up. I'm not saying that the FC doesn't shave a second off in some situations, but your statement is misleading depending on your support and other gear. I generally disagree that -2.5% recast will trump +4enmity especially if you have the support/gear in key slots already. Are you talking about situations /war with no marches?
#26 Jul 20 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Yashnaheen wrote:

I don't see how you can possibly not have Nuevo. I know a handful of folks on ACP 11 first try, I can help too if you want but I don't think 2 PLDs is a great idea for that fight. I could come DRG, but >.>


I dont. I never bought ACP, though it was a waste of money. Perhaps he did the same?
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#27 Jul 20 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
How do you figure that Nccoda? I agree with you 100% in regard to your Enmity over time point, but explain how a paltry 5% FC is making that much of a difference to beat +4enmity doesn't add up. I'm not saying that the FC doesn't shave a second off in some situations, but your statement is misleading depending on your support and other gear. I generally disagree that -2.5% recast will trump +4enmity especially if you have the support/gear in key slots already. Are you talking about situations /war with no marches?


If you assume uncapped Haste situations, something that I sometimes run into, the extra Enmity on the Haubert will excel for the first few minutes, but the extra Enmity increase begins to lose steam to the Fast Cast after the 7-8 minute mark.

This is referring only to Flash, and assuming that you are able to Flash the very second that it's recast is up again.

Obviously if recasts are completely capped without using the ACP Body, then Haubert does win. Being a good PLD, I have 2 Flash macros for my /NIN setup, one with ACP and one with Haubert, depending on my support and how feasible it is for me to Flash the VERY second that it's up.

In-game execution and math on paper are two different things, and there are times when Haste is going to wear just as your Flash is up, or your WHM is in the middle of doing some Erases and can't Haste you the second it wears, or your BRDs are busy with status cures or Ballad, or a thousand other very real things that can occur to cause you to lose your 50%+ Haste.

This is just on paper, real-game practice skews the numbers and nobody is perfect, but the math does favor ACP in any uncapped Haste situation that's going to last more than 7 minutes.

This is copied from BGs Drop thread XVI, in which Neosutra did some basic math to show the difference in ACP Body and Haubert:

Neosutra wrote:

Flash has 180 CE and 1280 VE.

4 emnity (difference between haubert and nuevo) is a 4% increase in those values per use:

Flash with Haubert: 196.2 CE and 1395.2 VE

Flash with Nuevo: 189.0 CE and 1344.0 VE

5% fast cast on a 45 second song reduces recast by 2.25 seconds.

In 10 minutes, a person with just Haubert would generate 13 flashes, totalling:

2550.6 CE and 18137.6 VE.

A person with just Nuevo equiped woul generate 14 flashes in that time, totalling:

2646 CE and 18816 VE.

Hydra haubert starts off higher, but starts losing ground to Nuevo around the 7-8 minute mark (didnt have time to set up a graph, adn it will depend on what other haste you have). Additionally, we arent taking into account other haste pieces that may add to that extra .25 seconds that I truncated (im not sure if recast is truncated or not) and increase the Nuevo's performance.

Also, we need to take into account if a person is recieving double marches (In which case they can get enough haste from hands/legs/feet/waste/head to hit recast and use Haubert to maximize emnity.
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#28 Jul 20 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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NCCoda wrote:

If you assume uncapped Haste situations, something that I sometimes run into, the extra Enmity on the Haubert will excel for the first few minutes, but the extra Enmity increase begins to lose steam to the Fast Cast after the 7-8 minute mark.

This is referring only to Flash, and assuming that you are able to Flash the very second that it's recast is up again.

Obviously if recasts are completely capped without using the ACP Body, then Haubert does win. Being a good PLD, I have 2 Flash macros for my /NIN setup, one with ACP and one with Haubert, depending on my support and how feasible it is for me to Flash the VERY second that it's up.

In-game execution and math on paper are two different things, and there are times when Haste is going to wear just as your Flash is up, or your WHM is in the middle of doing some Erases and can't Haste you the second it wears, or your BRDs are busy with status cures or Ballad, or a thousand other very real things that can occur to cause you to lose your 50%+ Haste.

This is just on paper, real-game practice skews the numbers and nobody is perfect, but the math does favor ACP in any uncapped Haste situation that's going to last more than 7 minutes.


I see your point better now. While I never believe that the ACP would win over time in real situations, I can agree with the potential in theory. The other factors IMO are more of an issue. Let's say you are co-tanking and the other PLD isn't as good with their enmity set. Or you take more damage thane expected for whatever reason, poor blm stuns for example. Or even imagine a hate reset move like on Omega. Those are just a few reasons why I believe the ACP body is useless for casting Flash. Like you said, the ACP body takes longer to amass the hate cap compared to more enmity gear. If that timer is reset or skewed due to a number of reasons, the math is thrown out. For the sake of argument, it's safe to say the Hydra is a superior choice majority of the time including all factors, not as situational as ACP for sure.
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