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Concerned about the damage I take right now...Follow

#1 Jul 25 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
I just finished going from 60-63 PLD on Colibri in Bhaf. Thickets and couldn't help but feel I was taking far more damage than I should. Most of unblocked hits were between 80-120 and blocked hits were around 30-50. Normally I'll have on some acc gear so I can hit the **** things this time I went pretty much full time turtle, my gear is as follows:

**** Sword +1
Iron Ram Shield
Bibiki Seashell
Full AF
Parade Gorget most of the time
2x Verve Ring +1
Buckler Earring
Antivenom Earring
Warrior's Belt +1
High Breath Mantle

I asked in my LS if it seemed right and I kept getting told I should only be taking about 50-70 on unblocked hits against these. I just can't understand how that is possible, there isn't much more I can get for turtle gear at this level.
Even eating food didn't help the short time I was able to keep some up, so now I gotta ask if my LS is full of **** or this is completely normal and I am worrying over nothing.

Also I have yet to hit a Vorpal Blade over 100 in an exp party even when switched to the following gear and using sushi or meat before doing it:

**** Sword +1
Iron Ram Shield
Smart Grenade
Walkure Mask(will upgrade to the 59 turban when I see one on the AH for a change)
Ryl.Grd. Collar
2xSpike Earring
Haubergeon
Fourth Gauntlets
2x Woodsman Ring
Life Belt
Ryl.Kgt. Breeches
Savage Gaiters
Amemet Mantle

#2 Jul 25 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't remember taking that much damage and I was in gear closer to your WS gear the whole time. I'm not sure what's going on, there - something definitely feels up a little bit. If you WERE using that much turtle gear, I'd expect you to take much less than I did.

Looking at an old parse, I took on average 79 damage from the colibri in my DD gear. Are you just eye balling it? Or is it actually being parsed? Eye balling tends to show either extreme when it's not really the case. (Not saying you couldn't be right, but it just doesn't seem to fit.)
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#3 Jul 25 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overcamping. Usually 62/63 until about 66 are the best levels to burn those. Puks in Wajaoam were what I did form 59-62 [also Aydeewa Derimites and Puktraps.] From 63-66 it should become easier.

Keep in mind that faster killspeed [both from you and the DD's] will equal less damage taken, by you or anyone.

Edit: About Vorpal Blades. You'll typically only see good ones if you [surprise surprise just like the melee's] have buffs. Dia2, Min/mad, Chaos/hunter's, berzerk,having marinara pizza etc etc. Those will make a lot of difference in your damage output.

Edited, Jul 25th 2009 11:16am by Palides
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#4 Jul 25 2009 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Since he's on birds, I'd recommend Crab Sushi over Pizza. For everything else, though, Pizza wins.
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#5 Jul 25 2009 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
I figured it might be due to over camping. And it was eye balling mostly and ran a parser to confirm it. Thanks for the confirmation that I'm not crazy :D
#6 Aug 01 2009 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I might of missed it, but it's possible they had Defender up or popped cheap def food. Also, try to get a rapier sword for birds. You get the piercing bonus and faster delay for better hate control/dmg ratio. As others have said, use need DD gears to do good damage and support. Same goes with tanking. If you have a mob that is slowed with elegy, it's silly to wear a turtle build ever no matter what your style.

My advice if you have solid support is to gear well for DD, rotate popping Reprisal and Sentinel, and pick yourself up a rapier sword for birds. Grudge, bastard, and others are inferior to a rapier Joyeuse-ish type sword.
#7 Aug 01 2009 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Colibri have 294 evasion. At lvl 60 that is seriously overcamping since you need 346 accy to cap at 95%. It's do able but how much money do you really want to throw at it?

Even with the best accuracy setup you will be sitting around 324~ which is a little over 80% accy which is probably the best we one handers can hope for.

I don't think you need that turban for your WS build. If anything I would use that money for HQ version of the cape, a better neck piece, Assault Earring, or higher accy rings.

Edited, Aug 1st 2009 11:28pm by Marou
#8WCDireWolf, Posted: Aug 05 2009 at 1:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) PLDs use food on birds? I never do :P
#9 Aug 05 2009 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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This is an old train of thought and one that this forum views as outdated. Not using food on colibri is a personal choice, but you're severely underutilizing your tools if you choose to do so. (And, if you were on my server, would keep me from reinviting you to another party... honestly.)

DD PLD is one of the best ways to keep hate on a mob the majority of the time. The reason most DD's pull hate is because of their ability to deal damage. There's also the fact that the higher in level you go, the LESS Vitality and Defense do for damage mitigation.

Seriously, you should try DD PLD before you knock it. Specifically on Colibri.
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#10 Aug 05 2009 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
WCDireWolf wrote:
PLDs use food on birds? I never do :P

Anyhow, onto the issue, one cheap (at least it was when I bought mine) upgrade for turtle is the Knightly Mantle, Vit and Def is good on it. I forget the levels, but the Jelly Ring and the Hercules Rings are also good upgrades for a PLD. As for hitting Colibri, sometimes DD have issues with it, and that's their job. If you're missing, dont worry too much about it.


Please quit playing on PLD or at the least quit giving out advice you are making the good ones look bad.

Also use some food on PLD crab sushi is cheap enough to spam and will help you immensely on holding hate by increasing your DoT which also leads to faster kills and better xp overall.

Also NEVER BUY A KNIGHTLY MANTLE!!!!!!!! (Unless you buy it and NPC it to removed the damned things from the market)

Just carry around a few High Breath Mantles and rotate them out if you die or sync wipes your buffs.

Also only macro in Herc Ring for Enmity abilities or MP recovery between pulls if you get low. You'll get much better mileage out of woodsman to help your accuracy.

Trust me your parties will thank you
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#11 Aug 06 2009 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
Wish I could DD on the **** things, most pt's kick me for not being in full turtle gear, and every LS I've been in refuses to take me to an pt's unless I'm going full def/vit, stating that only PLD in full askar and with a joytoy and atonement can do any sort of DD :( . Anyone on Alexander got a social/leveling LS that is a little more open minded?
#12 Aug 06 2009 at 6:38 AM Rating: Excellent
redfoxwhitley wrote:
Wish I could DD on the **** things, most pt's kick me for not being in full turtle gear, and every LS I've been in refuses to take me to an pt's unless I'm going full def/vit, stating that only PLD in full askar and with a joytoy and atonement can do any sort of DD :( .
Probably the same narrow-minded people that read the Brady guide and think WAR/WHM is good practice for being a PLD. Smiley: mad
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#13 Aug 06 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
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My mistake, I thought the question was how to reduce damage taken, NOT in trying to increase your DPS.

Additionally, I'm not entirely sure that the acc from a Woodsman will turn you into a furious DD. Now, I might be wrong, but even when geared as a DD, I tend to perform UNDER the efficiency of a standard DD.

As for food, I advocate using food IF you need it. Is it worth popping Tacos vs. Birds? In my opinion, no. Also, some of us managed to level PLD before the High Breath Mantle, so I was giving advice that I used at the time, and if you're looking for DAMAGE REDUCTION, it is still a solid piece.

As for hate holding, I've never had problems even as a "Turtle" Paladin. I've done both, I can still DO both, and I prefer turtle, specially for HNMing. I honestly doubt your Woodsman Ring will do jack against Khimeira or Nidhogg.

Sincerely and sarcastically yours,
WCDireWolf
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#14 Aug 06 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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The thought of a full Askar PLD makes my stomach want to empty its contents.

Edit: Your DD set has to be miles better to be effective in HNM vs. exp, but it still works. Have you noticed Homam? Conveniently, it's a Pld/Nin's ideal gear, and just so happens to have accuracy, and good for TPing.

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 10:55am by Illusitaru
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#15 Aug 06 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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WCDireWolf wrote:
My mistake, I thought the question was how to reduce damage taken, NOT in trying to increase your DPS.


It's not about either and it's specifically about both. The faster the mob dies, the LESS damage you take. Simple concept and utilizes the fact that you're holding hate a majority of the time AND decreasing overall damage.

WCDireWolf wrote:
Additionally, I'm not entirely sure that the acc from a Woodsman will turn you into a furious DD. Now, I might be wrong, but even when geared as a DD, I tend to perform UNDER the efficiency of a standard DD.


Then you AREN'T DD'ing properly. We're not talking damage output here - a SAM WILL outdamage you per hit. They use a weapon with a higher base damage AND have the two-handed weapon bonus in their favor. BUT, your accuracy SHOULD be comparable to them and should be about the same as a similarly equipped WAR who happens to be using axes. A +5 Accuracy is a solid +2.5% hit rate which will improve YOUR base DD by 1.025%. That's just one ring. Two goes up to 1.05% increase. Add more of it up, and you'll see significant returns. Yes, the rings make a difference. They do it for DD's, too, so I don't see why you're arguing about it.

WCDireWolf wrote:
As for food, I advocate using food IF you need it. Is it worth popping Tacos vs. Birds? In my opinion, no. Also, some of us managed to level PLD before the High Breath Mantle, so I was giving advice that I used at the time, and if you're looking for DAMAGE REDUCTION, it is still a solid piece.


Just because it's worked in the past (and will continue to work, for the record) doesn't mean it's the ideal, optimal, or even standard way of doing it now. And, no, you shouldn't be popping TACOS for the birds. Pop some crab sushi and get your hit rate up or pop some meat and get some STR/Attack if you have a decent enough hit rate with out it. I hope your DD's are doing the same, too. Honestly, I do. It's known to improve XP/hour, which is the goal of this whole thing to begin with.

WCDireWolf wrote:
As for hate holding, I've never had problems even as a "Turtle" Paladin. I've done both, I can still DO both, and I prefer turtle, specially for HNMing. I honestly doubt your Woodsman Ring will do jack against Khimeira or Nidhogg.


And if I've successfully tanked them with DD gear I should claim that you're doing it wrong, right? I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, I'm saying you COULD improve your ability here. Hitting for 0 doesn't help Spirits Within OR Atonement. And, again, the rings do jack. They do 1.05% Jack, specifically. Thanks for playing, though.

WCDireWolf wrote:
Sincerely and sarcastically yours,
WCDireWolf


Welcome to publicly giving an opinion and finding you disagree with the majority here.

Sincerely and not sarcastically yours,
Dracoth.
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Leviathan - PLD90, BLU90, MNK 90, DRG 78
#16 Aug 06 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, if you're not in DD gear and Atonement spamming HNMs, you're just a RDM tank with slower recast times and a worse hate threshold.
#17 Aug 07 2009 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth, you have a very excellent post style, and have indeed restored some of my faith regarding the forum community. /salute

I think the basic issue is that (in my opinion) there are indeed 2 different ways to tank. I prefer Turtle, but I *do* see the merits of a DD approach.

As to calls for accuracy, I use 2 pieces of Homam, PCC, Ulthuam's Ring and a Ranged piece I can't remember the name of right now for accuracy. (Note: This is when I'm DDing) Perhaps I am doing it wrong, since I *personally* have never been that impressed. I'm more concerned with something slipping past my shadows/defenses and getting plastered I guess.

Again, thank you for the reply.

Sincerely,

WCDireWolf
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#18 Aug 07 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Every person has their own experiences as we gain levels in this game. I picked up a Hauby at 59 and a +1 at 60. I never took it off for anything until I started blood tanking with an end game shell. There, I started as a PLD/WAR and realized just how futile it was after "accidentally" showing up /NIN for Byakko and keeping the entire shell from suffering a single death.

When your shadows are up, the only thing to worry about is how many shadows you still have up and what AoE moves the mob might have that will ignore all of your shadows. With adequate support, it's easy to keep shadows up 90% of the time (haste/marches/alternate flashes from those with/adequate debuffs on the mob/etc). When your shadows are negating so much of the damage, the game becomes fine tuning your gear so that you're generating TP as often as possible. This means hitting often enough to get TP and hitting for enough that you aren't hitting for 0's. It's a fine balance and everyone finds their own.

Honestly, just before I quit, the only time my Gallant Surcoat ever saw use was for job abilities and the pesky mobs that were too magic based for shadows to be useful against (I was holding out that the IR piece would come sooner than later and didn't want a Coral/Merman's... oh well).
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#19 Aug 07 2009 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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WCDireWolf wrote:
I think the basic issue is that (in my opinion) there are indeed 2 different ways to tank. I prefer Turtle, but I *do* see the merits of a DD approach.

As to calls for accuracy, I use 2 pieces of Homam, PCC, Ulthuam's Ring and a Ranged piece I can't remember the name of right now for accuracy. (Note: This is when I'm DDing) Perhaps I am doing it wrong, since I *personally* have never been that impressed. I'm more concerned with something slipping past my shadows/defenses and getting plastered I guess.


I lost all faith in you on the first post, but this last post has at least showed me you arent denying that a DD build has its merits. And im glad that you can atleast say that.

However to answer your last part, going as a DD pld doesnt mean you stay DD always, DD pld is more busier than a turtle pld is half the time. You stay in DD gear while you are swinging and are protected by your shadows ofcourse, but once they are down, you still are lugging around your defensive gear. If youre shadows are down your shield/-damage gear goes on. Ppl still wear koenig gear for terrors in spots that they dont have damage reduction gear on. When you perform a hate move you toss on your enmity gear(haste gear[priority] on things with timers).

A PLD can get around 20-30% hit rate just in gear, thats about 1/4 of your hit rate just from gear, thats a good chunk imo. In gear a pld can get 20% haste, thats also 1/4 from cap and close to 1/2 from spell recast cap.

A turtle pld can keep hate just fine, thats what any turtle pld will tell you, and thats fine, but wouldnt you want to contribute more?


Btw to turtle plds, if DD is so bad, why do you even engage the mob with a sword? You can shield block w/o even engaging it. The moment you engage and swing your sword arent you trying to coz damage to it? Im still puzzled by this, if plds are not DD, why even pull out your sword.... do you honestly think ~312 acc is going to hit the mob... Im still puzzled by these ways. Engaging, wearing enmity while it does nothing, having HP gear that does nothing while my shadows protect me.
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