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DD or VIT?Follow

#1 Jul 27 2009 at 11:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Currently PLD30 and wondering if I should level with DD or VIT and HP gear? Maybe a mix? Or is there a specific level I should shift?
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#2 Jul 28 2009 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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Personally I would say mix it up, because at that level, there are some slots in which there are simply no decent DD options, or they're not especially easy to get (specifically thinking of the body slot and Eisenbrust vs. Phobos' Cuirass, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that I'm missing others in my just-crawled-out-of-bed state). Do aim towards the DD side of things by all means, but if the best piece for a given slot happens to be a turtle piece then that may have to be how it is. At higher levels, better DD gear obviously swings it further towards the DD side of things, and there's enough Defense on some of the better pieces to both make sense and keep the turtles quiet.


incidentally, in trying to get my LS' PLDs to go over to DD, I've advocated hybrid setups purely to edge them out of their comfort zone, so maybe this is as good a place as any for you to start doing the same.
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#3 Jul 28 2009 at 3:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's always a lot of debate over this.

Some people argue that the added DEF and VIT wont do enough to cut damage down. Other people argue that with the DD gear, you take too much damage and drain MP.

If you want to make it worse, both sides are right.

It's up to personal preference these days, as well as which monsters you're fighting and how your party setup is. I personally wouldn't recommend doing anything like a DD setup on the middle-lands monsters. They have too much HP dragging the battle out, and hit like a truck. No matter how much DD gear you'd switch in, you wouldnt be able to contribute to the damage enough to make it worthwhile. Mostly because you hunt IT+.

If you're fighting VT's or lower (mostly starting Colibri's), or are simply in a merit party, then by all means, go all out DD.

If you feel comfortable with switching in DD gear without completely exhausting your mage line or giving your party extra down time, go for it. If it means having to rest up after every battle and not hitting Chain 2, then just stay a tank for a little while longer.

DD isnt the all-out answer, nor is full DEF and VIT. Some battles need you to lean just a little more to one side or another. Find the pace that works best for you. No one can tell you how much you can do with your party, really. Mix it up a little if you like, but know how far you can go. If you become a liability, you're not making anyone happy.
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#4 Jul 28 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want to make it worse, both sides are right.


This is almost right up to a certain point. In the low levels defense and vitality are still meaningful but once you hit around the 50's due to level correction and the mob's attack and str ratios it becomes less so.

You'll be fine turtling up (def & vit gear) up to about 50ish, after that (or sooner) go DD all the way and never look back. After 60, DD's get their big WS's and can easily rip hate at will so this is where DD PLD shine's.

I forget who, think it was Dracoth, that showed that even though you do take more damage in a DD setup it's negated by the fact that kill times are quicker which means more xp, which is better for everyone.
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#5 Jul 28 2009 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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ScarShiva is generally recognized as the biggest proponent of DD PLD from its earliest inception. I provided the first physical parse (and I wasn't even fully DD - just a food change and some minor equipment changes, at that) and Illusitaru provided the theoretical math behind it. (By theory, I mean it's on paper.)

The correct answer is "Bring gear for both and learn how to use each." My mantra was "If I can't DD it, we're overcamping," but I had the benefit of knowing I had a RDM, WHM, and SAM or THF in my party at all times and it was a matter of picking up two more DD's. Having that kind of solidarity and being the one who picks camps makes it a lot easier to stick with one style over the other.

DD > Def/Vit so long as there is no significant increase in downtime. I.e., as long as the extra curing that takes place because you're in DD gear doesn't result in more resting time for the healers than you gain in the increased kill speed, you should be using DD gear. Without parsing, you'll have to get a good feel for it, but it's easy to choose camps where DD wins from 14 til 75. I know, I've done it.

For ease of reference for the gear I recommend, I'll link the EQ section of my DD PLD guide (of which, I REALLY am trying to finish... really).
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#6 Aug 03 2009 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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That's a sweet guide ^_^ I've been looking for something like that. Wiki's guides were mostly useless (yay for listing everything pld can wear).

As for topic, I've been trying to gear for DD since 37 (soloed it as sub a long time ago, then picked it up again a little while ago), but it's been ending up as mix and match, since I'm leveling with sister, and since she wants to be meleeing rdm (lets not argue about rdm curebot issue here), I've let her use the best stuff I have, and have settled for second best since I have sword merits to fall back on, plus higher base than rdm.

At the moment (lvl 48) I'm wearing full royal squire's, life belt, PCA, drone earrings (saving for shield earring), verve+venerer rings, breath mantle (will upgrade to high breath once I've used all the charges) and honor sword. I usually eat tacos. I'd eat meat if we had a real healer, but I'm not forcing sis to sit in backline just so that I could do more damage.

My accuracy is fine, damage per hit isn't horrible, and flat blade adds another stun. Sometimes we skillchain for fun, but often melees aren't very cooperative and just have to go in the middle instead of waiting 10 seconds.

I don't think I'm getting hit too hard. Actually in a lot of camps I think I haven't been hit close to hard enough to keep hate as much as I'd like. Sis only refreshes me, and emergency cures if I get interrupted too much (of course enfeebs, and hastes and other refreshes where applicable), and unless the puller wants to pretend to be in merit party and try and pull mob when the old one is still at half health, I've yet to run out of mp (exception, trying to pull beetles in Citadel basement at 45... 120-150 a hit is too much when fight lasts 5 mins or more). On mobs with AoE damage, I've so far for the most part main healed the whole party so that I could hold hate better.

Well I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my opinion the more you can cure, the better you can hold hate, so it's ok to get hit hard if mp isn't an issue.

That reminded me of funny story. I actually got an invite yesterday from someone claiming to be 75pld who had powerleveled himself all the way to 75, and he was telling me what a noob I am and how much I suck if I can't hold hate 100% without curing at all. :P Obviously that was one invite I refused.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 1:41pm by Sharain
#7 Aug 03 2009 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Sharain wrote:
That's a sweet guide ^_^ I've been looking for something like that. Wiki's guides were mostly useless (yay for listing everything pld can wear).


Some day, I may move it to the wiki. Chances are, though, I'm only finishing it for this site - someone else can modify it when major information comes along.

Sharain wrote:
As for topic, I've been trying to gear for DD since 37 (soloed it as sub a long time ago, then picked it up again a little while ago), but it's been ending up as mix and match, since I'm leveling with sister, and since she wants to be meleeing rdm (lets not argue about rdm curebot issue here), I've let her use the best stuff I have, and have settled for second best since I have sword merits to fall back on, plus higher base than rdm.


Good compromise, but you really want to start getting more good gear. RDM does great on the front lines as long as they can make the rest of their duties work: Refresh mp users, haste tank/dds, cure when necessary. Glad to see you're working together. At least your RDM isn't subbing /SMN so she can melee more often. Mine did, til I took over the account.

Sharain wrote:
At the moment (lvl 48) I'm wearing full royal squire's, life belt, PCA, drone earrings (saving for shield earring), verve+venerer rings, breath mantle (will upgrade to high breath once I've used all the charges) and honor sword. I usually eat tacos. I'd eat meat if we had a real healer, but I'm not forcing sis to sit in backline just so that I could do more damage.


Have you considered either using Pizza (+Accuracy AND +Attack) or Dorado Sushi (+Accuracy and enmity)? You're about the right level. I view 40 with 2 of the +5 accuracy rings as the best place to start using it (rule of thumb - more factors involved, but I don't want to get into them), and 48 with Life Belt is the key changing point. Also, consider saving up for 1-2 Woodsman rings (I greatly prefer them) as you can. Get a Rajas if you're anywhere near the end of CoP (Saatva really is crap as anything but an enmity macro piece).

Sharain wrote:
My accuracy is fine, damage per hit isn't horrible, and flat blade adds another stun. Sometimes we skillchain for fun, but often melees aren't very cooperative and just have to go in the middle instead of waiting 10 seconds.


Flat blade is fine for now. I still rocked Fast Blade, myself. Shield Bash was my "emergency stun" move, and I rarely had to use it for that. Stunning is great. SC's are practically a thing of the past, sadly, but are fun when you can do them. And 10 seconds to wait for WS's can be a HUGE factor...

Sharain wrote:
I don't think I'm getting hit too hard. Actually in a lot of camps I think I haven't been hit close to hard enough to keep hate as much as I'd like. Sis only refreshes me, and emergency cures if I get interrupted too much (of course enfeebs, and hastes and other refreshes where applicable), and unless the puller wants to pretend to be in merit party and try and pull mob when the old one is still at half health, I've yet to run out of mp (exception, trying to pull beetles in Citadel basement at 45... 120-150 a hit is too much when fight lasts 5 mins or more). On mobs with AoE damage, I've so far for the most part main healed the whole party so that I could hold hate better.


Want to know why your other DD's make you rely on your cures for hate? They're getting haste when you aren't. Haste does 2 things for you past 37 and both help a PLD increase hatelevel. 1) DoT increase. The more haste you have, the better. And the 15% from the Haste Spell is a great place to start. 2) Decrease in recast times. The fastermore often you can get Flash off, the longer you'll hold hate. Curing for hate is a great way to get hate, but when you aren't the target because DDs are pulling hate more often than you are, it's hard to cure yourself. And, yes, you can and should be curing them, too, but that's beside the point. Haste priority should always be: Tank, other DD's. Your sister will want to get used to that before you get close to end game material.

Major note, though: you've got the right idea.

Sharain wrote:
Well I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my opinion the more you can cure, the better you can hold hate, so it's ok to get hit hard if mp isn't an issue.


DD has greater hate potential than curing. Curing is awesome, too, but DD just has more modifiers in its favor. The main reason PLD's can hold hate so well is the combination of hate potential from DD and Cures.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 2:29pm by Dracoth
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#8 Aug 03 2009 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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2) Decrease in recast times. The more often you can get Flash off, the longer you'll hold hate.


FTFY
#9 Aug 03 2009 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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If I get some time and get motivated again, I've always wanted to give my bigass theory post some fixes and to put it a little more in reality. As in, highlight a camp that isn't T-VT and give the turtle Pld a little more street smarts. Once I've got it where I want it, I'd be confident to put it in my sig. Or let it appear in the Pld stickies (I dont actually know if anyone has referenced to it, I sorta hope not, lol) Anyway, that'll take me a super long time though, so we'll see.


Oh, on topic, I strongly endorse DD 14-75. Well, starting at 10 with royal footman gloves, but really getting started at 14 with mighty rings. Focus exclusively (super simplified) on attack till 40, and then start mixing attack and accuracy, with a general prioritizing of accuracy.
Don't ever bother with turtle gear, unless there isnt a DD piece for a particular slot

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 3:27pm by Illusitaru
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#10 Aug 03 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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dirtyTofu wrote:
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2) Decrease in recast times. The more often you can get Flash off, the longer you'll hold hate.


FTFY


(at self): Durrrrrrrr.....

Thanks for the correction - it is what I meant.
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#11 Aug 03 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for all the great tips. Gear is work in progress, as I mentioned sis has the best stuff (including my woodmans rings), but she's working on getting her own. Getting cor to 75 lately bankrupted me, so I can't afford duplicates right now. ^_^;; I got ecphoria ring waiting at 49 though from pup (-eva = bad for pup solo). Peti > SH+1 > haubergeon progression waiting in 50s too. Well I'll probably go peti > haubergeon and let sis use SH.

Maybe I'll try pizza next party. As long as it doesn't prevent me from taking care of myself. ^^;; Sis just started the game 2 months ago, and rdm is her first job. I want to give her the same experience I had as rdm (also my first job, some 3 years ago) instead of the pink mage standard that's prevalent these days. I had static nin tank instead of paladin, but personally I despise playing nin, so I gotta work more to make myself self-sufficient. I know, I know, it's not 2006 anymore, but I can always dream. ^_^ So far haven't gotten any complaints about that exp was particularly slow either.



Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 5:01pm by Sharain
#12Siralin, Posted: Aug 03 2009 at 2:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Smiley: deadhorse
#13 Aug 03 2009 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just because its a dead horse topic doesn't mean we need to withhold being helpful.
Gtfo if you're gonna bring nothing but sh*t to a thread.
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#14 Aug 03 2009 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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To Sharain:

Yes, pizza is awesome for Pld. It gives you almost the oomph of meat and almost the extra accuracy of sushi. I've always felt like a @#%^ eating sushi, and always had sh*t accuracy with meat. Pizza is a DD Pld's new best friend.

And like Dracoth is saying, keep yourself up, but don't rely on spamming cures for hate. That sh*t won't work once you hit Aht Urghan and pulls are coming faster than your mp can keep up with. A rockstar Rdm in the backline (or frontline) will help a lot for sure, you won't be able to main heal for much longer. And do your sister a favor - have Rdm+Whm healing sets. The diversity and total MP is awesome, and that combo is that much sweeter if your Rdm is a competent frontliner (sometimes with pld/rdm/whm you end up with too much MP, and not enough DD. Be wary of who your DDs are)

Edited, Aug 3rd 2009 6:44pm by Illusitaru
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#15Siralin, Posted: Aug 03 2009 at 4:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, let's be nice and coddle the @#%^tards that aren't willing to look back a few pages (if that) and let them know it's perfectly alright not to do any work for themselves. /eyeroll
#16 Aug 03 2009 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Siralin wrote:
Yes, let's be nice and coddle the @#%^tards that aren't willing to look back a few pages (if that) and let them know it's perfectly alright not to do any work for themselves. /eyeroll

It's a good thing you're still actively ready to investigate replies to deadhorse topics instead of making use of a little will power and simply not click on them.

Stay classy.
#17 Aug 03 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Default
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JasonWalton wrote:
Siralin wrote:
Yes, let's be nice and coddle the @#%^tards that aren't willing to look back a few pages (if that) and let them know it's perfectly alright not to do any work for themselves. /eyeroll

It's a good thing you're still actively ready to investigate replies to deadhorse topics instead of making use of a little will power and simply not click on them.

Stay classy.


I'm bored; sue me.
#18 Aug 05 2009 at 12:58 AM Rating: Decent
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if u read kojirosoma post correctly, he didn't say turtle up is better than DD.

What he say is that, depend where u battle or xp, you use different gear. Because DD is good, but not suitable for every spot location or suitration.

He does mention, if u xp or fight IT++ mob in mid-land post 50 (basiclly the old tradition xp spot, before ToAu is release) DD build is not a good idea, because the mob in there are hitting much harder and have tons of hp to tank. Your DD would do very little compare to the amount of blood u lost in the battle, simply because you can't kill the mob fast enough. also if your DD dunno how to setup skillchain on mob that in old traditional spot, then they deserve a slap, because it help to kill the mob fast in the old area due to the length of the battle.

Basically the art of skillchain is lost due to the release of ToAu. The mob in ToAu die alot faster and there is no point to setup skillchain, so its best to just do mulit-hit ws to the ToAu mob.

But also i don't see any reason why any party would level in those area anymore. Due to the release of ToAu.

Basiclly if u xp or battle in the ToAu area, you can simply go DD gear to tank, because mob in ToAu have low hp and hit soft. otherwise if u go DD in old xp spot post 50, you are making it no good for your mages, and you will notice u lost blood faster than the mage can heal u, and it drain mp crazy.

Edited, Aug 5th 2009 9:00am by lichinto
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#19 Aug 05 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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If you're fighting IT++ mobs in almost any area/level range, you're doing it wrong. Unless getting 5k an hour is your goal or something.
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