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Flash: Haste vs enmityFollow

#1 Feb 18 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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For a long time now, i have been using a full enmity set for casting flash to maximize as much hate as i can get out of flash. However, I am curious, over the course of an extended fighting session, say HNM/God/Ground king/Omega etc, would it mathematically be better to be using haste when flashing?

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#2 Feb 18 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes. Use enough haste to cap recast (might need more or less depending on your other haste buffs) then pile on the enmity.
#3 Feb 18 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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As a general rule, Haste > Enmity on flash. The reason for this is simple:

Would you rather generate 320 VE every 22 seconds or 400 every 45 seconds?

You should focus on haste to get the timer lower faster. Then focus on enmity in slots you're not getting haste.

I can give more specific numbers if you're interested (have a spreadsheet just for calculating the difference), but, again, I've yet to find a point where enmity > haste for Flash at all.

Another way to look at it is that capped haste or capped enmity would be almost even (rounding being what it is, I think capped enmity would slightly edge out capped haste by a minimal amount). But, since you can cap haste (including Spell + Bards) and still have gear slots for enmity, it's always going to win.

An argument can be made when you're at capped VE and CE... but it's moot, because EITHER method will keep you capped, and I'd rather be casting the spell faster.
#4 Feb 18 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Cap your Flash recast, then worry about putting Enmity into it.

Personally I use 2 Flash setups, one when I'm getting Haste and March/March, one when I'm getting no Haste or March (Or only one).
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#5 Feb 19 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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NCCoda wrote:
Cap your Flash recast, then worry about putting Enmity into it.


On a similar note, if you're going to be playing PLD in endgame situations, I would remove some of those job merits and put them into Sentinel recast. (Combat skills would be good too but it looks like you are maxed out on those already.)
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#6 Feb 19 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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soopafeen wrote:
NCCoda wrote:
Cap your Flash recast, then worry about putting Enmity into it.


On a similar note, if you're going to be playing PLD in endgame situations, I would remove some of those job merits and put them into Sentinel recast. (Combat skills would be good too but it looks like you are maxed out on those already.)


Agreed, personally I'd ditch Cover recast and drop them all into Sentinel. I find Sentinel far more useful than Cover. I do love my Shield Bash merits thought.
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#7 Feb 20 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah the cover merits were yanked a long time ago and put into sentinel recast. I hadnt update my sig in a while, probably tomorrow.

My gut and my mind were arguing with one another, one said haste the other said "no it's 2004, use enmity" problem was, couldnt decide who to listen to.

Edited, Feb 20th 2010 3:02am by Aryden
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#8 Feb 20 2010 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Cap out your haste, like whats been mentioned already in this thread. Youll come to a point where the extra enmity will be useless once you get toward your cap after 5mins and being able to flash faster is always better. Your hate works going up and down, and provided that a mob is on you/tanks 90% of the time, everyone else is hate levels are all going up very slowly/fast catching up to you/tanks.

By the time everyone has caught on hate levels, there will be a point on the hate level that you cant drop below or draw-ins start to occur or the mob moves over to the player. Since VE is constantly dropping and raising, you are constantly fighting against that, and having flash ready asap is your best tool(along with any atones you can get off) to maintain a high VE.





Edited, Feb 20th 2010 11:32am by hitoseijuro
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#9 Feb 20 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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#10 Mar 02 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Default
Put haste on every slot you can, then fill the others with Enmity.

I cast Flash with

W.Turban,V.belt,Homam Hands, Homam Legs, Homam Feet,Blitz Ring, Iron Ram Hauberk,Ritter Gorget,Loq.Earring,Hades Earring.


But that's if im not getting hasted or if i'm solo(enmity to reach atonement cap faster). On anything of importance you should be getting haste/march full time anyway so go for full enmity.
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#11 Mar 15 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Dracoth wrote:
Would you rather generate 320 VE every 22 seconds or 400 every 45 seconds?


I'm new to leveling PLD, and in an attempt to be the best I can be, I've been reading Kanican's Enmity tests (among other things) to get a better understanding of enmity handling. But I have to admit that I'm a little confused - you mention Flash generating 320 VE, but Kanican lists Flash as generating 180 CE and 1280 VE. Which is right? Please forgive my lack of knowledge.

#12 Mar 15 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Use the enmity table on the Kanican blog--that pretty much is the most accurate source of enmity data there is.
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#13 Mar 15 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Squintik wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
Would you rather generate 320 VE every 22 seconds or 400 every 45 seconds?


I'm new to leveling PLD, and in an attempt to be the best I can be, I've been reading Kanican's Enmity tests (among other things) to get a better understanding of enmity handling. But I have to admit that I'm a little confused - you mention Flash generating 320 VE, but Kanican lists Flash as generating 180 CE and 1280 VE. Which is right? Please forgive my lack of knowledge.



Those numbers were based off unsaid amounts of enmity and haste. Full haste nets you a 50% recast, so 22 seconds.

Kanican's table assumes 0 enmity adjustments. In other words, it's the base that you can build off of. Any good PLD will have enmity, as well. I think I also typo'd and meant to have CE, not VE, there. The point still stands: full enmity yields less overall enmity than full haste over the same amount of time. It's just the nature of the beast.
#14 Mar 15 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Almost every piece of haste gear in the game for PLD provides a superior benefit to the average enmity counterpart. However, I think it may be a bit of an overstatement to say Haste > Enmity period.

From a purely mathematical standpoint, 1 haste is about equivilent in benefit to 2 enmity. In other words, 50 haste = casting the spell twice as often = the same spell cast once with double the potency (100 enmity).

However, there are some real-world issues that have additional weight. Personally, all things being equal, I prefer to keep my actions to a minimum. So if I had to choose between 2 spells or 1 spell with twice the potency, I'll take the later any day. Also, if we're talking xp party or kiting situations, you're not going to be able or want to cast flash as soon as the timer is available all the time.

Outside of that, you have the consideration of caps. 50% recast or +100 enmity are you caps to consider. Your probably not going to have to worry about the enmity cap outside of Sentinel (automatic +100 enmity). 50% recast is not that hard to reach, however, with support.

So for me, I'll take 2 enmity over 1 haste anyday, but that's where I draw the line. Fortunately, there's not many situations where you have to make that call as our haste pieces generally are closer to 1:1 to our enmity pieces. I would not, however, use Blitz Ring over Mermaid's Ring for example.

Also, if you use spellcast, it's not hard to have it switch to a max haste set during Sentinel or a max enmity when the proper buffs are active to optomize your macros (if you're interested in that).
#15 Mar 15 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Fisban wrote:
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Iron Ram Sallet is listed as 5 Haste instead of 5 Enmity in your program ;)
#16 Mar 16 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
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Hellbringerx wrote:
Almost every piece of haste gear in the game for PLD provides a superior benefit to the average enmity counterpart. However, I think it may be a bit of an overstatement to say Haste > Enmity period.

From a purely mathematical standpoint, 1 haste is about equivilent in benefit to 2 enmity. In other words, 50 haste = casting the spell twice as often = the same spell cast once with double the potency (100 enmity).

However, there are some real-world issues that have additional weight. Personally, all things being equal, I prefer to keep my actions to a minimum. So if I had to choose between 2 spells or 1 spell with twice the potency, I'll take the later any day. Also, if we're talking xp party or kiting situations, you're not going to be able or want to cast flash as soon as the timer is available all the time.

Outside of that, you have the consideration of caps. 50% recast or +100 enmity are you caps to consider. Your probably not going to have to worry about the enmity cap outside of Sentinel (automatic +100 enmity). 50% recast is not that hard to reach, however, with support.


Its not an overstatement to say haste > enmity period, its just a mathematical truth. Math is always going to tell you what piece is better. The outcome ofcourse is always going to be dependant on the player base. The more focus/aggressive you are as a tank, the better haste is, the less and lazier, the more enmity is probably going to have to pick up the slack.

As a mathimatical standpoint 1 haste is still better than 2 enmity, they are not equal(obviously you hinted this with using "about"). 50% haste will beat out 100 enmity.

In 30 minutes, you will get 40 flashes with 100 enmity(no haste) for 14400 CE, vs 81 flashes with 50% haste(no enmity) for 14580 which means you got almost an extra flash worth of enmity. Toss in the fact that you can add enmity to the haste set up while you couldnt with the enmity setup since you would be losing enmity(as if you could achieve 100 w/o sentinel anyhow(64-ish is around the best atm)) and you see how much better haste setups are. The reason being why its not the 50% haste being equal to 100 enmity is basically just because flash is an odd number(45) and with haste 50% it bring the timer to a 22 second recast which would hurt enmity builds. If it was say 30 second timer naturally then 50% haste vs 100 enmity subject would be equal. And when you cant hit the cap of 50% it would probably come down to a 1:2 ratio pick.

If I had to put a ratio for haste vs enmity, it would be more likely 1:3 ratio. For enmity to really over take haste it would have to be almost 3 times the amount of enmity vs haste for it to actually make a difference over time. At the moment most pieces worn by the majority dont even hit the 1:2 ratio. Bmask(8) vs Turban(5) Homam legs(5) vs Iron(4)hydra(6) Homam feet(3) vs iron(3)hydra(4) swift(4)/vbelt(6) vs trance(4) with homam hands coming to the 1:2 ratio vs hydra....but ya. Only piece that comes to the 1:3 ratio would be blitz ring vs Hercules' ring but you should never be force to chose between them for flash unless they make another haste(or fast cast) ring. Its either mer/herc or blit/herc(if not capped). No need to mention Sattva since theres no use for it.

In the end mathimatically due to the timer on flash, haste is better. How that affects your tanking, is soley based on your preformance. Flash(haste vs enmity) is always going to be a double edge sword discussion due to the key ingredience.......the player base.
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#17 Mar 16 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with the general advice here, but I just wanted to add a couple of considerations that I didn't see mentioned:

-- Depending on total haste, you may not get the full recast benefit from a haste piece:
----> 5% giving either -3 or -2 seconds;
----> 4% giving either -2 or -1 seconds;
----> 3% giving either -2 or -1 seconds;
----> 2% may give -1 or have no effect;
----> 1% may give -1 or have no effect


*It was already mentioned that once capped, you don't need more gear haste

-- Haste increases your MPcost/time:
----> 0% haste is roughly 33mp/min (~1.6/tick)
----> 33% haste is roughly 50mp/min (~2.5/tick)
----> 50% haste is roughly 68mp/min (~3.4/tick)


*It was already mentioned that lower recast increases number of actions required


...not that these matter a whole lot. Just saying! :)
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#18 Mar 16 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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They do matter, but as a matter of principle, MP usage shouldn't be a huge concern for PLD. Between Auto-Refresh, refresh from gear (Parade Gorget makes a decent neck piece for PLD as long as you're swapping it out when doing actions - other pieces more situational), Refresh from RDM, Ballad from BRD, Sanction/Sigil refresh, Chivalry, Devotion, and all the other assorted methods of regaining MP, a PLD shouldn't really be having issues with casting Flash every time it's up. MP is our ticket to Enmity generation. If you're that strapped for MP, relook at your approach to whatever it is you're fighting, XP or Endgame.

As far as amount of recast from having haste, it's a valid point. It's why Loquacious Earring doesn't really benefit people as much as they think it does/should. But, there are times where it does help. Playing around with the math before getting something can REALLY help. See Fisban's calculator for a simple and awesome way of doing this without a lot of personal stress. However, the general rule still applies - haste will do more for your total enmity than enmity itself.

As an aside, I disagree with the 1 haste to 2 enmity or 1 haste to 3 enmity... It makes for a decent general rule, BUT it's not true at all levels. It all comes down to multiplying percentages. I don't have the time to get into it now, but the actual levels of comparison differ the farther from maxed recap vs. maxed enmity you are.
#19 Mar 16 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
As an aside, I disagree with the 1 haste to 2 enmity or 1 haste to 3 enmity... It makes for a decent general rule, BUT it's not true at all levels. It all comes down to multiplying percentages. I don't have the time to get into it now, but the actual levels of comparison differ the farther from maxed recap vs. maxed enmity you are.


Of course it's not a perfectly acurate statement to say that 1 haste is worth 2 enmity, but it isn't any more accurate to say 1 MAB is worth 2 Int in terms of magic damage or 2 Int is worth 1 Macc/Skill in terms of resist, but they are used as general rules for selecting equipment. I think the same can easily be said for Haste vs. Enmity for flash.

hitoseijuro wrote:
In 30 minutes, you will get 40 flashes with 100 enmity(no haste) for 14400 CE, vs 81 flashes with 50% haste(no enmity) for 14580 which means you got almost an extra flash worth of enmity. Toss in the fact that you can add enmity to the haste set up while you couldnt with the enmity setup since you would be losing enmity


First, you will NOT get 81 flashes in 30 minutes....ever. Unless you're a computer or have nothing to do whatsoever but hit flash again the MOMENT it becomes available again, it will be far less than this. This is the trouble with people that rely TOO HEAVILY on equasions. The math gets you the information you need to make an informed decision. The point I was making between additional recasts isn't about laziness, it's about practicality. You're GOING to miss your recasts by a second or two occasionally because you're involved in other things or stunned or terrored or paralyzed or....you get the picture. My point is, that if I can get the same enmity for less actions, I'll take less actions anyday.

Now, you seem to be hung up on the two extremes I made mention of (all enmity or all haste) which was simply for illustration. No one here is advocating using only Enmity for flash (unless you're capped on Haste). The point is, don't tell people to just "Cap out your Haste" because then people go and buy a Blitz ring thinking it will help. If you truely believe that it's "more likely a 1:3 ratio," then go on believing that. However, you've made no arguement to support that claim.

ryaWHM wrote:
-- Haste increases your MPcost/time:
----> 0% haste is roughly 33mp/min (~1.6/tick)
----> 33% haste is roughly 50mp/min (~2.5/tick)
----> 50% haste is roughly 68mp/min (~3.4/tick)


Thank you for this, I'm not sure why I didn't consider it. This actually shifts the value of enmity over haste a little further. I realize people love to say "don't worry about mp" for pld, but that should only be used in terms of max MP (like chosing mp merits). When refering to mp use over time, you should care A LOT.

Going back to the two extremes (50% haste vs 100 enmity) you've gain 68mp/min for the max enmity build. This can easily be turned into a cure cheat macro for and extra 23 Cure IVs every 30 minutes. This translates to around 8000 to 9000 CE with a normal macro setup. To expand on hitoseijuro's comparison, this puts us at 14580 (Haste) vs. 22400 CE (Enmity) in a perfect world.

So this puts 1 Haste closer to 1.3 Enmity (again in a perfect world and ONLY in this comparison). As Dracoth mentioned, the ratio would change depending on your actual values for haste and enmity.

Edited, Mar 16th 2010 2:53pm by hellbringerx
#20 Mar 16 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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hellbringerx wrote:
Dracoth wrote:
As an aside, I disagree with the 1 haste to 2 enmity or 1 haste to 3 enmity... It makes for a decent general rule, BUT it's not true at all levels. It all comes down to multiplying percentages. I don't have the time to get into it now, but the actual levels of comparison differ the farther from maxed recap vs. maxed enmity you are.


Of course it's not a perfectly acurate statement to say that 1 haste is worth 2 enmity, but it isn't any more accurate to say 1 MAB is worth 2 Int in terms of magic damage or 2 Int is worth 1 Macc/Skill in terms of resist, but they are used as general rules for selecting equipment. I think the same can easily be said for Haste vs. Enmity for flash.


Why I said it was a "decent rule", but like all decent rules, it should be pointed out WHY it's only decent.

hellbringerx wrote:
hitoseijuro wrote:
In 30 minutes, you will get 40 flashes with 100 enmity(no haste) for 14400 CE, vs 81 flashes with 50% haste(no enmity) for 14580 which means you got almost an extra flash worth of enmity. Toss in the fact that you can add enmity to the haste set up while you couldnt with the enmity setup since you would be losing enmity


First, you will NOT get 81 flashes in 30 minutes....ever. Unless you're a computer or have nothing to do whatsoever but hit flash again the MOMENT it becomes available again, it will be far less than this. This is the trouble with people that rely TOO HEAVILY on equasions. The math gets you the information you need to make an informed decision. The point I was making between additional recasts isn't about laziness, it's about practicality. You're GOING to miss your recasts by a second or two occasionally because you're involved in other things or stunned or terrored or paralyzed or....you get the picture. My point is, that if I can get the same enmity for less actions, I'll take less actions anyday.


Well, if you use Windower or have some other form of viewing recast easily /recast will work, it's perfectly possible to get 81 flashes in 30 minutes. The REAL problem with getting 81 flashes in 30 minutes is... What are you fighting that takes 30 minutes to kill that you're able to stand still for those 30 minutes and keep that careful track on it to get the 81 flashes? In practice, I agree, the chances of seeing all 81 exactly in 30 minutes is slim. Theory isn't great for showing what should happen in practice, BUT it does show the trends and patterns and it helps a person find areas to improve their performance. And, really, if you have issue with casting flash once in every 22-23 seconds... I would call it laziness. I'm usually chomping at the bit to get that next flash off.

hellbringerx wrote:
ryaWHM wrote:
-- Haste increases your MPcost/time:
----> 0% haste is roughly 33mp/min (~1.6/tick)
----> 33% haste is roughly 50mp/min (~2.5/tick)
----> 50% haste is roughly 68mp/min (~3.4/tick)


Thank you for this, I'm not sure why I didn't consider it. This actually shifts the value of enmity over haste a little further. I realize people love to say "don't worry about mp" for pld, but that should only be used in terms of max MP (like chosing mp merits). When refering to mp use over time, you should care A LOT.


It's not so much "Don't worry about mp" and more "Make sure you have adequate refresh." Most activities I do on PLD, I end up with (on average, as mentioned - Parade Gorget isn't full timed, but it's on for most ticks)

1 Auto Refresh + 3 Refresh + 1 Parade Gorget mp every 3 seconds. In ToAU and WotG areas, add an additional 1 when MP < 75%ish, and you've got 6. Add in ballads from a BRD, and you can easily boost that to 10 mp every 3 seconds. Whether a PLD should get Ballads or Minuets depends on other support... It depends on the situation - ****'s situational clause invoked! Considering it takes 7 ticks for Flash to come up (22-23 seconds, considering max haste case), and your mp refresh is at 7*10=70 mp. Spend 25 mp on flash, and you're left with 45 mp to use towards Cure Cheats. THIS is why we say "Don't worry about mp!" Not because that mp couldn't be used for other purposes.

hellbringerx wrote:
Going back to the two extremes (50% haste vs 100 enmity) you've gain 68mp/min for the max enmity build. This can easily be turned into a cure cheat macro for and extra 23 Cure IVs every 30 minutes. This translates to around 8000 to 9000 CE with a normal macro setup. To expand on hitoseijuro's comparison, this puts us at 14580 (Haste) vs. 22400 CE (Enmity) in a perfect world.

So this puts 1 Haste closer to 1.3 Enmity (again in a perfect world and ONLY in this comparison). As Dracoth mentioned, the ratio would change depending on your actual values for haste and enmity.


See earlier point about refresh mattering into the equation. And it does validate the practicality vs. laziness argument you had earlier. Honestly, if we HAD +100 enmity, it'd make a much better argument. But, in looking over Kanican's livejournal again, I'm noticing a tag that talks about a cap of +50 in enmity, meaning you only benefit from +50 from equipment... Without sentinel, it doesn't look like we can even get close to the +100 cap.
#21 Mar 16 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Dracoth wrote:
1 Auto Refresh + 3 Refresh + 1 Parade Gorget mp every 3 seconds. In ToAU and WotG areas, add an additional 1 when MP < 75%ish, and you've got 6. Add in ballads from a BRD, and you can easily boost that to 10 mp every 3 seconds. Whether a PLD should get Ballads or Minuets depends on other support... It depends on the situation - sh*t's situational clause invoked! Considering it takes 7 ticks for Flash to come up (22-23 seconds, considering max haste case), and your mp refresh is at 7*10=70 mp. Spend 25 mp on flash, and you're left with 45 mp to use towards Cure Cheats. THIS is why we say "Don't worry about mp!" Not because that mp couldn't be used for other purposes.


You obviously have phenomenal support (2xBrds, Rdm, Whm) in this scenario with everyone performing thier jobs flawlessly. That's great if you do, but we're not all so lucky. Also, I don't see how you'd get 10mp/tic from that unless you have a relic brd (which would make it 13mp/tic), it should be 9. I would say 5mp/tic is more of the "norm" given lazy rdms/brds, not activating laten on gorget, not activating or having sanction refresh, or the lack of having the "ideal" tank party in the first place. This would give you only 10mp/7tics "spare."

Really, it doesn't matter much. In terms of flash or cure cheats, extra mp/min = enmity and I'll take all I can get. It's not like I can't spam Cure IV to burn off the surplus of mp I'd be forced to deal with.

Dracoth wrote:
But, in looking over Kanican's livejournal again, I'm noticing a tag that talks about a cap of +50 in enmity, meaning you only benefit from +50 from equipment... Without sentinel, it doesn't look like we can even get close to the +100 cap.


Kanican's Journal Enmity Testing Part IX wrote:
+ Enmity from gear and merits (add the 2 together) caps at +100. Note that if you hear anyone tell you I tested the cap to be +50, they are likely just seeing the -50 number (which I found first) and assuming it to be true the other way. This is a common piece of mis-information on various PLD forums. I have only run one +enmity cap test in addition to another person on BG doing the same and we reached the same conclusion - THE CAP IS 100.


I only posted that for clarity on the subject, not because I believe it's possible or practical to get 100 enmity from equipment, especially for flash.

I feel I need to restate my point here. I'm not talking about going all out on enmity for flash and haste be damned. I'm saying for any giving piece of equipment, you may get more value over time choosing the enmity piece over the haste piece. In my mind the ratio of approximate break-even value is 1 haste to 1.3ish enmity (If you have a good cure-cheat setup).
#22 Mar 16 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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I wrote out the MP refresh.

1 from auto
3 from Refresh
1 from Parade Gorget
3 more from BRD Ballad

That's 8 right there.

Another 1 from ToAU or WotG areas when < 75% max mp (and the only time you should be above that is at the start of a fight).

Apparently, I'd have to deduct points from myself, because that still only equals 9, not 10. Ares body would add another 1 (for the 10), but that's not something I'd expect a PLD to necessarily have.

It would also require only 1 BRD, but you'd be giving up Minuets, and that would depend on what you were fighting and what other support you had.

Notice, I didn't include COR. Personally, I feel COR would do better in a DD or BLM party than in the PLD party, but they'd certainly add plenty to the PLD through Evoker's + Choas rolls. That would boost it plenty more, there.

For a more realistic example, let's go with:

1 from Auto-refresh
3 from Refresh

for 4.

Given a fully capped recast of 22 seconds, that's still 22/3=7.333 ticks, or 29.333 mp/flash generated, timewise, which leaves 4 over. If you don't even have that much refresh, you have to ask if you have adequate support for what you're doing. If you don't, things need to be reevaluated. As you mentioned later, "I'll take all I can get."

Also, thanks for the correction on the "+Enmity cap." Something didn't quite look right, and I'm glad you corrected that. I should also point out I'm not arguing with you - just having further conversation. I haven't called you out on being lazy, and your point of "fewer actions with the same amount of enmity" is valid. At the end of the game, it all comes down to how fast you can cap your enmity and how easy is it for you to keep it near that cap.
#23 Mar 16 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I was only saying Brdx2 because I was assuming you had a 2nd Brd for Marchx2 in order to get your capped recast.

Also, I know you're not arguing with me. Discussion helps to clarify points. My only reason for posting here at all is because I always see the same reply to this question: "HASTE!!!! oh and throw on some enmity if you have the room."

Again, I realize with the common options for Pld that this works out to be true for the most part. However, there is a point at which enmity is more valuable than haste, and I like for people to realize that.
#24 Mar 17 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm a little confused. Minuets for PLD? Capped haste? Max refresh? What kind of situations are you talking about here?

And maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like someone is saying a cure cheat is more enmity/MP than Flash?!

I've seen nothing here to discourage the rule: "Haste before Enmity for Flash."

Even with no haste and no enmity, the ratio is 1:1. Sure you don't always take advantage of all your haste in practice when it comes to casting Flash, unless you're a bot, but on which pieces of gear are you choosing enmity over haste? Maybe there's something out there, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Blitz ring is just silly. Someone who would use that is just the kind of person how needs a simple rule to follow, even if it leads them astray sometimes.

And if your Flash recast is so low you are concerned about MP use, well, what kind of situation is that?
#25 Mar 17 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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I use Blitz ring a fair bit actually, I wouldn't have one if it wasn't for war but I find it useful non the less.

I like to use it in dynamis, helps me claim quicker as I don't need masses of enmity from each flash, just enough to have more than the blms who sleep and aspir. What I do need though is the lowest recast times possible so I can claim 5-6 mobs before they wake and if I do feel the need for more hate I'll just cheat cure. I never have a brd in dyna, so I think the haste helps more than enmity would. I'm going to start trying /rdm on the next dynamis so I'll probably use mermaid's instead then. I do think it's good for /war though.

It allows me to move gear around and still cap recast if I can't blink. If I can blink I can easily overshoot the recast cap anyway (with double march and haste) so I obviously wouldn't use it then. Capping recast is my first priority when building a set and in some situations blitz ring helps with that, it's a case of 1 haste vs 2 enmity, I hardly think considering it for a build is silly.

My set current set looks like this in full haste gear

Turban 5% Haste
Nuevo Coselete 5% FC
Dusk hands 3% Haste
Swift belt 4% Haste
Loc earring 2% FC
Homam legs 3% haste 4% FC
Homam Feet 3% haste.

18% haste and 11% fast cast

I often get one march simply because my co-tanks are usually either an Elvaan or a Galka and they want ballad, the Elvaan is the LS leader and the Galka is a sac, I don't get a say in the matter.

So, one march, haste and my gear comes too... 49.5% recast reduction, it seems if I use a blitz ring I can cap recast without a second march. Sounds pretty good to me.


As for enmity vs haste please try to remember +enmity is just a phantom stat, all it does is generate hate, Flash generates hate AND has an effect, it makes the mobs miss, saves the pld shadows or dmg taken. So even if they both produced exactly the same hate, I'd take haste, because it helps me tank too, in a way +enmity simply doesn't.
#26 Mar 17 2010 at 4:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hellbringerx wrote:
First, you will NOT get 81 flashes in 30 minutes....ever. Unless you're a computer or have nothing to do whatsoever but hit flash again the MOMENT it becomes available again, it will be far less than this. This is the trouble with people that rely TOO HEAVILY on equasions. The math gets you the information you need to make an informed decision. The point I was making between additional recasts isn't about laziness, it's about practicality. You're GOING to miss your recasts by a second or two occasionally because you're involved in other things or stunned or terrored or paralyzed or....you get the picture. My point is, that if I can get the same enmity for less actions, I'll take less actions anyday.

You are obviously missing the point about what I said about math doing one thing and the player base affecting that maths outcome......

Like my example, mathimatically you get that many flashes in that amount of time(@drac,the amount of time was used for example), no where did I say you were going to do that, but mathimatically thats your possibilities. How close you come to that possibility is all up to your player aggression. If you are off a few seconds each flash, it doesnt make haste any less appealing. You use haste for flash for 2 reasons. To have flash available as fast as possible and to produce more flashes over the course of time.

If you arent spamming flash as soon as its up and missing a few seconds, chances are its going to happen with either build and over all the haste build should be equal if not better than enmity b/c if you were pumping out more flashes with haste build you still will, but even thats up in the wind. Since time is the unknown for the most part you wont be able to tell whether you're going to get more flashes in or not, just an educated guess.

Here Ill show you a better example, hopefully youll see what Im trying to imply.

Lets say 15 minutes, thats a good time. Now rather than saying 50% haste vs 100 enmity because thats not a good example, well use a more down to earth example. Well use a setup that has 35 enmity(common flash build)with haste setup of 15%(50%) which is the norm under marches. Vs swapping a piece out for more enmity, lets say swift for trance. That puts the next set to 39 enmity with 11(46%) haste.

Now you can get about 40 flashes(vs 37) under 15minutes but we arent human and were bound to be a little slow on a few flashes here and there. So lets assume were like averaging out to be 3 seconds slow on casting our flashes when the timer is up. Meaning that would be 25 seconds(36flashes) and 27(33flashes) seconds on the other. The enmity produced would be 8748 vs 8250 nothing changed, haste is still better even if you arent on the ball with flashes. Reason being, regardless of how much haste you have or dont, you are still going to be playing in the same manner with either build. Now you might say, ya but I draw the line at blitz vs mermaid. Same thing, plug it in to this situation and youll still get 1-2 more flashes out of 1% haste over the other. This is not to say you "should" use blitz ring coz omgurdoing it wrong, its just its better in most situations when uncapped. Will it be noticeable? Probably not, but neither will all that access enmity you use for flash/cures when you're pushing cap most of the time after 4-5minutes.

You can bring up w/e variables you want, but regardless, what affects one set of gear will affect the other aswell. How it affects the gear you dont know because you cant control outside interferrance.

Ryawhm wrote:
----> 5% giving either -3 or -2 seconds;
----> 4% giving either -2 or -1 seconds;
----> 3% giving either -2 or -1 seconds;
----> 2% may give -1 or have no effect;
----> 1% may give -1 or have no effect

Agreed^ I actually mapped out my whole haste percentages so I always knew if I was getting the full benefit from the haste or not. Basically depending on the amount of haste and the amount of the recast, it will either round off to shave 1 seconds off, or not. This is usually in situations where you dont have a brd, or only have 1 song, where youd be debating what piece to chose over the other.


Im not disagreeing with you Hellbringerx I just think you are discrediting how useful even a small increement(sp) in haste can be provided as Rya pointed it out you get that benefit. I think I posted that months/years ago when this was debated(when hasnt it...). Really the only real factor against even 1 second off flash vs more enmity is basically time. Since time is the unknown factor the majority of the time and doesnt come in perfect minutes/seconds. We just have to go based on what we can simulate.

In the end wear w/e you feel comfortable with, I personally like playing aggressive and from the /recast "<insert spell>" in my macro Im usually hitting my flash about 2-3 seconds before its up, just because all I do is tank, so for me I feel that I can benefit from any seconds I can shave off my flash.
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#27 Mar 17 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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midguardian wrote:
And maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like someone is saying a cure cheat is more enmity/MP than Flash?!


Yes, you are. No one even once said or implied such a thing.

hitoseijuro wrote:
Lets say 15 minutes, thats a good time. Now rather than saying 50% haste vs 100 enmity because thats not a good example, well use a more down to earth example. Well use a setup that has 35 enmity(common flash build)with haste setup of 15%(50%) which is the norm under marches. Vs swapping a piece out for more enmity, lets say swift for trance. That puts the next set to 39 enmity with 11(46%) haste.

...

Im not disagreeing with you Hellbringerx I just think you are discrediting how useful even a small increement(sp) in haste can be provided as Rya pointed it out you get that benefit. I think I posted that months/years ago when this was debated(when hasnt it...). Really the only real factor against even 1 second off flash vs more enmity is basically time. Since time is the unknown factor the majority of the time and doesnt come in perfect minutes/seconds. We just have to go based on what we can simulate.


Ok....I'm giving up after this. I'm quite tired of being misinterpreted and misquoted. The very fact that you mentioned swaping swift for trance as an example shows how little you actually read of my statements. Perhaps its my fault for typing too much? I'll be honest, I stopped reading your post after that. Swapping 4 haste for 4 enmity is a poor choice as I mentioned time and time again. There's no reason to show me the math proving that. I also stated time and time again that the only current application for enimity over haste that I could concieve of is mer/herc ring over blitz (or Hades+1 over Loq I suppose). No other trade-offs in the game will offer enough enmity to give you any real benefit over the haste counterpart. However, future equipment may change those choices and I think it's important to understand the relationship. HOW MUCH haste is better than HOW MUCH enmity? If you're just saying haste is better than enmity, you're not saying much at all.

Quote:
In the end wear w/e you feel comfortable with, I personally like playing aggressive and from the /recast "<insert spell>" in my macro Im usually hitting my flash about 2-3 seconds before its up, just because all I do is tank, so for me I feel that I can benefit from any seconds I can shave off my flash.


Not if you're kiting you're not.

There, I'm done.
#28 Mar 17 2010 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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502 posts
hellbringerx wrote:
midguardian wrote:
And maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like someone is saying a cure cheat is more enmity/MP than Flash?!


Yes, you are. No one even once said or implied such a thing.


You're right, I did misinterpret your wall-o-text.

hellbringerx wrote:

Going back to the two extremes (50% haste vs 100 enmity) you've gain 68mp/min for the max enmity build.


When you made the above incorrect statement (it's actually 33MP/min saved), I assumed you were implying that a cure cheat would gain you more enmity/MP than flash. But I see now I was wrong.

You make a good point. Casting Flash less often but stacking more +enmity can save you MP for cures which can potentially gain you more enmity/time. I'll take some of the blame for not being able to see that the first time I read your posts.


p.s. Rule of Thumb: Haste before Enmity for Flash.
#29 Mar 18 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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NCCoda wrote:
I do love my Shield Bash merits though.
Oh God, this. So very, very this.
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#30 Mar 19 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
HOW MUCH haste is better than HOW MUCH enmity?

I already answered your question if you read my reply.

Hitoseijuro wrote:
time

Thats the determining factor of how much haste is better
than how much enmity.


Now back to the reasons why I brought things up, again, provided that the x-amount of haste being added reduces your timer enough to push you to an extra flash, haste will do better for you.

Now we always meantion that you gear for haste over enmity til you cap out your recast. Now lets take your example the blitz ring vs Mermaid, where you draw the line at. If blitz rings 1% pushes your haste down 1 second off your timer, and your fight lasts long enough to get an extra flash off, blitz ring is better than mermaid. Thats as best as I can tell you.

It would take about 8(7would be equal) emnity to beat that 1% haste(if you got the -1 second) and got an extra flash from it.

For example going from 49-50% (blitz ring) vs mermaid, the fight would have to be about 6mins, so in a real world enviroment over 6minutes, for you to get your first extra flash.

Now not everyone has that situation where they have full buffs, what about just haste? and atleast 10% haste in gear(no reason to never have atleast that amount in an event). With blitz ring youd have 11% which would reduce you to 1 second off timer. For that to be worth anything the fight would have to drag on longer than 13 minutes.

Now to clear things up so that your question or your concern for haste > enmity. For 1% haste to out due enmity it has to be able to 1) reduce your recast by 1 second and 2) grant you an extra flash.

For 1% haste to grant you an extra flash under the best best conditions where 1% caps your recast, it would take more than 6mins of flashing. So any fight thats 7-8mins+ long is ideal for this. For enmity to beat this it would have to be done with 8enmity. Under the minimum conditions of where you are only getting haste spell and 10%(turban+dusk gloves+dusk feet) in gear and blitz gets you 11% and the 1second reduction. The fight has to be longer than 13 minutes(so any fight thats 14minutes+) to beat out enmity that is lower than 5. 5 enmity or more will do better for you in that circumstance though.

It all comes down to time, since you wont always know "exactly" how long a fight is since min/seconds are never perfect, like I posted before, your best bet is just to calculate how long your fights normally last and then go from there. Atleast this gives you a rough idea of what time frame 1% haste starts giving you an extra flash(PROVIDED YOU GET THE SECOND SHAVED OFF!) and basically the min-max amount of enmity needed to over take it within that time.

Again I cant stress this enough in my posts, that you keep reading over, but the determining factor of how much haste in relation to how much emnity is dependant on time. If you are not getting a extra flash with haste, enmity is better. If you are getting an extra flash, then you need to determine how many flashes total you have w/o the extra haste. Then from there you calculate the amount of enmity you are generating from the enmity piece you are comparing with the haste piece and multiply that with the amount of flashes you have. If the extra enmity is more than the amount of enmity(180x the number of flashes) flash(s) generate is more, than the enmity piece is better, if not, than the extra haste was better. Its really that simple. The difficulty is time, but if you know your events/fights never last more than x-amount of time and you know you never have less than x-amount of haste, you can determine what amount of haste is better than what amount of enmity.

I know you probably know this and just posted your initial comment to point out that sometimes haste wont always do anything for you, and thats correct. Im posting this to explain to others how it works or what exactly we mean by saying haste > enmity.

I guess expecting common sense is too much in FFXI.....
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