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Oh, The Bitter Sweet EndFollow

#1 Apr 19 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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Well, after years of Playing PLD, I have finally been forced to basically retire it, until FFXI changes in some way.

The very fact it has been a few weeks since the last post in this forum pretty much says it all. PLD is DEAD as a job in FFXI.

The one last great thing about PLD came to an end last night when I completed my +2 Set. The Good thing meaning that I always got the lot on stuff I needed because "Anyone who Suffers through that job, deserves all the help he can get". AND, best of All, I was willing to come /THF.

Yep, I can Proc TH, where most jobs will really suffer with a THF sub, PLD is so weak, no one will even notice.

Pretty sad huh. The "Tank" of the game relegated to Key/raise/healing/TH Patrol. And If I was really needed, to cast Protect on the Pulling THF in the cleave parties.

/Sigh, Im playing THF now, and its a fun job. But oh I miss playing PLD.



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#2 Apr 20 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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PLD will make a comeback next update.
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#3 Apr 20 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Everyone claims abyssea is too easy, its on easy mode. If its so easy, there should be no reason why a group wont let you come and enjoy pld if everything else is covered. I notice you have thf which is a desired job for getting abyssean weapons completed, so that might be something you can perhaps rotate with someone else from time to time. Getting almace and perhaps Ochain(its a long process for the shield) well help you increase your chances of being able to come on pld.

You know how strong your group is when members are allowed to come on any job they choose without complaints. Aslong as my triggers are checked off for the event, everyone else can come as they like, be it a job they love, or a leech.
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#4 Apr 22 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm actually surprised PLD isn't a more desired job in Abyssea- it's the best job for red !! procs next to warrior. It also gets a good deal of blue !! procs as well. Even if you already have a warrior, having another job to share !! procs with can greatly speed things up.
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#5 Apr 29 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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People on the forums are nuts, don't let the vocal minority share your view of the game. We use two PLD's consistently in our shell and they do an amazing job. When people talk about "usefulness" their speaking with merit like mentality of trying to pack the most into four to six character slots because that is all they want to bring to go get whatever item their after. Anymore and you have to divide up the loot more ways, thus the leaders want to get away with as few people as possible. In a bigger shell then mentality shifts to spamming as many NM's as possible while maximizing the loot obtained from each NM. To do this they ~need~ blue procs and PLD happens to be a very good job for that during slashing time. Its one of only two jobs that gets S.Slash / C.Moon and the only job that gets Swift Blade, it also gets all Staff WS, all but one of the Club WS, and a few PLM WS thrown in for ****** PLD also can check for red / blue procs while tanking the mob by using flat blade / burning blade, this is important because a MNK can't do this without resorting to lol staff.

So really PLD is still a very viable job, its just not super low-man friendly, its more of a LS style job like DRK / DRG / SAM / RNG (all specialists and have access to restricted blue proc WS).
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#6 May 09 2011 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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Our static of 4-6 lets me come pld. We have been working on Almace/Ochain and other weapons. Most mobs we kill just fine. With Almace, I cap hate through DD and its looking at me as often as the mnk or nin. Not really a problem. They love it when I tank cause they can go all out and not be worried about shadows or other stuff and just kill it!
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#7 May 09 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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We have a guy in our shell that always comes on Pld and we usually farm stuff with 4-6 people. He has Beladaire +2 which really helps a ton (CDC is a really nice WS). I am usually on War or Blu (both well geared) depending on if we need yellow procs or not and he has no trouble taking hate from either of my jobs. Pld just needs to play as a DD. Go for as much haste/attack/acc gear and atmas as you can and you should have no trouble taking hate. The only time you may have trouble is against an empyrean war/mnk/nin. People who complain about Pld not doing enough damage haven't taken the time to get good gear/atmas/a CDC weapon. I guess if your gripe is that you need 1 of 2 weapons (WoE version not being THAT hard to get) to be competitive with the strongest DDs, then I guess go find another job since you have no desire to make the best Pld you can anyways.
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#8 May 09 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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KWileyStyle wrote:
People who complain about Pld not doing enough damage haven't taken the time to get good gear/atmas/a CDC weapon.

Getting good gear/atmas/emp ws weapon goes both ways, compare an equally well geared/atma PLD to a well geared/atma DD and they will lose on damage.

The only reason damage is a concern is because it is currently the best way to keep hate, and PLD doesn't do a good job at dealing damage which means it doesn't do as good of a job keeping hate as a DD would, which makes it a weaker "tank". This doesn't mean it can't tank it just means other jobs do it better, sort of how a SMN wasn't the best healer but it could keep up back in the day.
Edit: I don't doubt SMN can keep up today, I just see more SMNs used for pet damage over healing now-a-days.

Edited, May 9th 2011 11:07am by Zagen
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#9 May 09 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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What are the criteria for doing good damage?

25-26% Haste? PLD can do this.
Good DD atma? PLD can do this.
Good DD WS? Vorpal blade is no slouch, PLD can do this.
Good DD gear? Heca/Twilight/other DD gear, PLD can do this.

There is no reason why a pld couldn't tank through damage, and even (heaven forbid) win parses. The reason they don't is because they use MP to cure/flash. Empyrean just makes it that much more obvious that they can.
#10 May 09 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Meldi wrote:
What are the criteria for doing good damage?

25-26% Haste? PLD can do this.
Good DD atma? PLD can do this.
Good DD WS? Vorpal blade is no slouch, PLD can do this.
Good DD gear? Heca/Twilight/other DD gear, PLD can do this.

There is no reason why a pld couldn't tank through damage, and even (heaven forbid) win parses. The reason they don't is because they use MP to cure/flash. Empyrean just makes it that much more obvious that they can.


Best Vorpal Blade I've done was a 3.4k, realistic averages are 1.2k-2k range.

My A. Fury averages 1.6-2k range.
My Raging Rush averages around 2.5k.
My Evisceration which comes out almost every 30 seconds on DNC averages 1k-1.5k(lols imo compared to real DD DNCs) THF friend (mine is still lols) usually around 2k+.
My Blade: Jin averages around 1.5k-2.2k.
My Leaden Salutes run 1.5k to 2k+ depending on buffs.
Heck my lolSAM at 80 averaged 1k-1.4k Jinpu/Gekko (which was lols compared to my friend's SAM at the time).

The ****** part of all these numbers is PLD is my best geared job in comparison to the rest.

Heck forget the WS damage every job I play and gear to a decent rate can match(usually go above and beyond) the damage per hit.
The problem is my other jobs either A) Swing a lot faster or B) Hit for a lot more damage. Worse in the case of MNK it does both.

PLD has good gear, PLD has a decent WS, PLD should have good Atma options. The thing is DDs have in some cases on par options in other cases better options. When a DD takes a beating similar to that of a nonOchain PLD and will get a mob killed faster meaning less damage taken over time the question really is "Why PLD tank?"

I love the job and it is my favorite job in the game despite being less efficient at everything it can do currently. That doesn't change the fact that it can't compete currently, I hope this changes at 99 and even if it doesn't my love for the job won't change.

Edited, May 9th 2011 1:09pm by Zagen
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#11 May 09 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Zagen wrote:
Best Vorpal Blade I've done was a 3.4k, realistic averages are 1.2k-2k range.

My A. Fury averages 1.6-2k range.
My Raging Rush averages around 2.5k.
My Evisceration which comes out almost every 30 seconds on DNC averages 1k-1.5k(lols imo compared to real DD DNCs) THF friend (mine is still lols) usually around 2k+.
My Blade: Jin averages around 1.5k-2.2k.
My Leaden Salutes run 1.5k to 2k+ depending on buffs.
Heck my lolSAM at 80 averaged 1k-1.4k Jinpu/Gekko (which was lols compared to my friend's SAM at the time).


So, what you are saying is PLD WS damage is on par or slightly less that the "heavy DDs" and that isn't good enough. Well, ok, I guess to each their own, but I don't know how anyone is going to really compare to a maxed out DRG or WAR, but last I checked, DRG wasn't getting invites either despite having perhaps the best Crit WS around in Drakesbane, so that is certainly not why PLD isn't being invited. Wars get invited because they have a bunch of red !!, and blue !!, and hey, PLD has only slightly less than WAR.

Zagen wrote:

Heck forget the WS damage every job I play and gear to a decent rate can match(usually go above and beyond) the damage per hit.
The problem is my other jobs either A) Swing a lot faster or B) Hit for a lot more damage. Worse in the case of MNK it does both.


Well, you are right and wrong on this one. First, the big hitter, WAR damage / per delay is almost exactly on par with pld with a slight edge to WAR (I am excluding Empyreans). Wars can use hasso 10% delay redux, pld can do /nin for 25% or dnc for 15% dw, and I will get to that for tanking a bit farther down, cause really on most NMs, if your pld is trying to tank, you shouldn't be using shield. THF/DNC/NIN, yeah, they attack blazing fast, but you have much higher base damage than my thf @ 43, at least 25.6% higher damage if you are using a shamshir, thf and pld get the same tier DW due to /nin or /dnc sub, so I would say they are break even in terms of benefit. MNK, well, no one can really compete with a job with both dealy redux (Martial Arts) and damage tied to H2H skill, they are probably one of the single most broken jobs in the game right now.

Zagen wrote:

PLD has good gear, PLD has a decent WS, PLD should have good Atma options. The thing is DDs have in some cases on par options in other cases better options. When a DD takes a beating similar to that of a nonOchain PLD and will get a mob killed faster meaning less damage taken over time the question really is "Why PLD tank?"


A fully geared pld DD that is actually taking damage is taking at least 19% less damage than any other job that is gearing for DD. Creed Cuirass +2 and Creed Cuisses +2 should guarantee that. Not to mention random procs of Occasionally Nullifies Physical Damage on the AF3 +2, if you are meleeing with 4/5 AF3 +2. If you are trying to DD tank with pld, that is what you should be using, if you can get a Zelus Tiara and a Goading Belt, you have 25% haste and 19% physical damage reduction in your TP set. If you are DDing to tank, you shouldn't be using shield (Unless you have an Ochain), which means you CAN take advantage of delay reduction from /nin and /dnc.
#12 May 09 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Meldi wrote:
Zagen wrote:
Best Vorpal Blade I've done was a 3.4k, realistic averages are 1.2k-2k range.

My A. Fury averages 1.6-2k range.
My Raging Rush averages around 2.5k.
My Evisceration which comes out almost every 30 seconds on DNC averages 1k-1.5k(lols imo compared to real DD DNCs) THF friend (mine is still lols) usually around 2k+.
My Blade: Jin averages around 1.5k-2.2k.
My Leaden Salutes run 1.5k to 2k+ depending on buffs.
Heck my lolSAM at 80 averaged 1k-1.4k Jinpu/Gekko (which was lols compared to my friend's SAM at the time).


So, what you are saying is PLD WS damage is on par or slightly less that the "heavy DDs" and that isn't good enough. Well, ok, I guess to each their own, but I don't know how anyone is going to really compare to a maxed out DRG or WAR, but last I checked, DRG wasn't getting invites either despite having perhaps the best Crit WS around in Drakesbane, so that is certainly not why PLD isn't being invited. Wars get invited because they have a bunch of red !!, and blue !!, and hey, PLD has only slightly less than WAR.


If "on par" is 200+ damage less then yes I'd be saying that...

Also I stated my PLD is better geared than any of my other jobs which would nullify the real goal of an equally geared PLD keeping up with an equally geared DD. My numbers show a better geared PLD still loses to not as well geared DDs.

Meldi wrote:
Zagen wrote:

Heck forget the WS damage every job I play and gear to a decent rate can match(usually go above and beyond) the damage per hit.
The problem is my other jobs either A) Swing a lot faster or B) Hit for a lot more damage. Worse in the case of MNK it does both.


Well, you are right and wrong on this one. First, the big hitter, WAR damage / per delay is almost exactly on par with pld with a slight edge to WAR (I am excluding Empyreans). Wars can use hasso 10% delay redux, pld can do /nin for 25% or dnc for 15% dw, and I will get to that for tanking a bit farther down, cause really on most NMs, if your pld is trying to tank, you shouldn't be using shield. THF/DNC/NIN, yeah, they attack blazing fast, but you have much higher base damage than my thf @ 43, at least 25.6% higher damage if you are using a shamshir, thf and pld get the same tier DW due to /nin or /dnc sub, so I would say they are break even in terms of benefit. MNK, well, no one can really compete with a job with both dealy redux (Martial Arts) and damage tied to H2H skill, they are probably one of the single most broken jobs in the game right now.


My Widowmaker pushes out 200-400 normal hits and then 500-700 crits. Double those on a DA procs. While slower per swing it also takes my WAR less swings to get to 100%+ TP to pump out another WS...

Comparing THF and PLD, THF gets Triple Attack, PLD does not...

THF/WAR/DNC get Crit Damage Bonus, PLD does not... Not to mention more Crit Damage gear Options.

The lower DMG on THF/DNC/NIN weapons also mean much lower delays. Lower delay = more swings over time = more chances for DA/TA procs = more chances for crits = more damage over time.

Meldi wrote:
Zagen wrote:

PLD has good gear, PLD has a decent WS, PLD should have good Atma options. The thing is DDs have in some cases on par options in other cases better options. When a DD takes a beating similar to that of a nonOchain PLD and will get a mob killed faster meaning less damage taken over time the question really is "Why PLD tank?"


A fully geared pld DD that is actually taking damage is taking at least 19% less damage than any other job that is gearing for DD. Creed Cuirass +2 and Creed Cuisses +2 should guarantee that. Not to mention random procs of Occasionally Nullifies Physical Damage on the AF3 +2, if you are meleeing with 4/5 AF3 +2. If you are trying to DD tank with pld, that is what you should be using, if you can get a Zelus Tiara and a Goading Belt, you have 25% haste and 19% physical damage reduction in your TP set. If you are DDing to tank, you shouldn't be using shield (Unless you have an Ochain), which means you CAN take advantage of delay reduction from /nin and /dnc.


THF/DNC Evasion Bonus and higher Evasion Skill means they get missed more. NIN main gets 1(3 with +2 Feet) more shadow on top of that higher Evasion Skill than PLD. A missed hit = 0 damage taken.
PLD only does this 1 of 4 ways: 1) /NIN shadows 2) They Evade as well 3) Phalanx/Sentential Up. 4) Ochain

MNK Counter... Only thing this doesn't work on is a few NMs who's swings count as TP moves.

WAR not counting sub has Retaliation which when they do get hit and retaliate is another notch toward "more damage than PLD". /NIN gives WAR the same shadows as PLD. /SAM gives 1+ blocks/counters with TE/Seigan, also don't forget this can actually block TP moves completely.



Edited, May 9th 2011 2:39pm by Zagen
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#13 Jun 11 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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In regards to outside of Abyssea though. I myself am a proud PLD and it's just... depressing. The other jobs have gotten a great boost 80-90 and outside I can't find myself able to keep up and keep that mob looking my way if at all. I remember at 80 though. PLD was beastly
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#14MrSka681, Posted: Jun 15 2011 at 7:59 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) OK I AM SICK OF SEE'ING THIS IF YOUR PLD IS SO WEAK THAT PEOPLE WONT LET YOU GEAR IF FOR EVENTS THEN YOU SHOULDNT BE PLAYING THE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!
#15 Jun 15 2011 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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MrSka681 wrote:
Another thing PLD/WAR can proc all but dagger and scythe so when we were doing pop NM's another member that mained dark brought that and are nin can cover the dagger issue.
Drop the PLD, have your DRK hit sword and club, let the WHM hit staff. Same thing, fewer people.

Though I guess if you have a dimwit for a WHM, that could be a troublesome setup...
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#16 Jun 15 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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It will be interesting to see what SE does with Cover in the next update:

"The effect for the job ability Cover will be partially modified."

Sure, it would be nice if they scrapped the need to target a party member first and THEN stand in front of them...

...but why not cut the recast down to a paltry 90 seconds instead of 3 minutes? ****, why not 60 seconds? Make PLD a living, breathing super Third Eye for those with hate?

Rather than raising CE/VE caps or adding another hate tool, a decreased Cover recast could change the role of PLD. It doesn't fix the fact that the average PLD won't be able to consistently hold hate against moderately skilled and geared DD's with aby roids. It doesn't fix that a PLD isn't needed for procs when someone else can do it. But it lets the PLD act as a literal shield. Have your primary DD/Tank stand behind the PLD at all times and just go all out - if your PLD merited Cover, the DD is only going to be "uncovered" for 25-55 seconds, and that's assuming that the PLD does nothing to hold hate. Someone else grabs hate in the meantime? PLD runs over to them mid-Cover, assuming SE makes the aforementioned tweak.

The player would still have to deal with tradeoffs between offense and survivability - you still need to give it your all to hold hate, but maybe that kickass DD set isn't enough to keep you alive in some situations.

Would it make PLD broken? Maybe, but what else can SE do to make PLD go from accessory job to a go-to tank again?



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