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Ochain or Aegis?Follow

#1 Nov 27 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I have recently been elected to get my PLD up to par, so that we can use an actual tank in VW in the future. I have capped shield (fun), got all my +1's done and will need to work towards a good shield. Which would you choose and why? Also, if you can give a time table as to how easy they are to accomplish.

Much appreciated.
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#2 Nov 28 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Aegis is useful against magic spamming mobs as it allows the PLD to break the 50% MDT barrier.

Ochain has an incredible block rate and is far better against non-magic spamming mobs.

Most relics can be completed in a very short order if you focus on Dynamis, specifically if you can form a small team able to proc and kill dreamland mobs proficiently. BLU, DNC, and (to a lesser extent) RDM have an edge going subjob-less and spamming their respective abilities to proc mobs. BLU has the added effect of being able to kill them off very quickly once proc'd.

The empy shield is one of two empy items that takes quite a bit of work to get. It could technically be faster to get than relic (no once per day limit, infinite ability to spam TE, etc), but the hold up is usually the Colorless Souls from VNM - the spawn time and spawn conditions (i.e., upgrading your abyssites) can be horrendous sometimes.

Most groups I've seen use Ochain for its raw ability to decrease damage while also allowing the PLD to get his spells off unhindered, but your mileage will vary. Having at least one of them, though, is necessary.
#3 Nov 30 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Ochain was very simple to obtain in my opinion

took me 3 months to get. And thats with only trying to get stuff done for the most part on 1 day out of a weekend. The iron plates is what took the longest, becasue we just hadnt committed to getting it done.


for Iron plates I chose ulegand range.

Mnk, Thf, Whm. is the team that kills the iron giant.

spawn the Iron Giant and pull it back to the wall so its knock back move doesnt make it walk. You do not want this iron giant to walk.

To make this go faster you can get a shout party for the seals and have them farm the pop items for the iron giant. eva tank whm blm for Koghatu. and preferebly a Thf to farm the Fluid from gears.

Always have a T2 available. Cause Chione spawns in this same area. and the T3 spawns there also. If you can get it get it any soul you can land while working on Iron plates is a bonus.

Once I was on the trial for the souls. We chose Grauberg. Why, for the most part least amount of competition.

We did this as a ls event. Everyone during the week was responsible to build a T2. Then one night of the weekend. We all would then gather together in grauberg and pop T2. Then pop T3. rinse and repeat. If we saw hodge podge of players trying to pop T2 we would find out if they was after seals only. Then invite them in. And get them to then pop their T3 if they didnt need it and offer them 75k or one of the items that dropped off the T3. 75% of the time they took the earing. If someone wanted the knife I would just tell them stick around we will get you one and we always did.

Horns took 4 days. (aprox 20 hours of play time) The KI needed to spawn the dragon is a common goldbox KI. So almost everyone in the ls already had a KI to spawn going in. (we had only 5 times a single horn drop with TH8 on)

So our strategy was to cap amber and kill we could usually get about 4 KI's by the time the NM would respawn.

We would pull the NM down the hill get him to face the mountain and then switch to his hind legs prefering to deal with his flail move instead of the wing move. We again used Mnk Thf with another 2 Tanks in waiting (Mnk, Nin, Pld, Thf) If lost curor buffs or died sub in another tank.

Whms at the top of the mountain kept them out of flail dmg most of the time.

We only brewed about 15 of them to speed it up and/or things got out of hand.

good luck that shield is awesome. Our whm said last night that playing whm is boring now.
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ScarShiva wrote:
Disclaimer: There seem to be a lot of PLDs on this board who get upset when I have the nerve to suggest things like wearing Peacock Charm full-time in XP is preferable over Shield Torque, Parade Gorget is a macro piece only, Tacos are worthless, Loquacious Earring > Boxer's Mantle for PLD/NIN, Polearm is a crock of **** for PLD, and all other types of heresy.

Get bent.
#4 Dec 02 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We did this as a ls event. Everyone during the week was responsible to build a T2. Then one night of the weekend. We all would then gather together in grauberg and pop T2. Then pop T3. rinse and repeat. If we saw hodge podge of players trying to pop T2 we would find out if they was after seals only. Then invite them in. And get them to then pop their T3 if they didnt need it and offer them 75k or one of the items that dropped off the T3. 75% of the time they took the earing. If someone wanted the knife I would just tell them stick around we will get you one and we always did.


You're pretty lucky; the vast majority of people I've encountered popping T2s will ignore me, and most of the ones that do answer say that they're there for T3. >_> A lot of times, the person popping it will be a solo DNC or NIN, meaning they take a ******* eternity to kill it too unless they're awesome, which they usually are not if they're solo. Offer to help? Still no response most of the time..
#5 Dec 03 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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I suggest ochain. I have ochain and i gotta say it really turns the job around. It becomes a **** of a tank for VW maintaining 90%+ shield block rate even without shield skill gear on. And those NM usually hit fairly hard, so you're mitigating 200-300 damage per swing, this allows you to keep your hate capped a lot easier as well as reducing your healers' hate.

I started this shield casually, collecting plates during ls runs or shout groups whenever i saw one. This step can be knocked out in 1-2 nights with a group of 4+. Souls stage is pretty annoying, if you havea group with you, get away from altepa and your competition will drop drastically. For a group of 3-4, estimate 1 hour per T3 NM (this is factoring in convertion rates and comp and the souls drop double about 70% of the time) Azdaja horns, easy with brews. Farm KI by killing deelgeed and aoe farming gold boxes, super quick. Then multi-brew him with non-darkness based WS (he resists dark like crazy).

Aegis is of course also a solid shield. You'll never get one shot from a quick casting spell or JA. However from parses i've seen, aegis' block rate falls off to 55-65% during VW.

Aegis would take a group of 3-4 about 1 to 1.5 months to farm currency for. Less if you have gil/can make gil to buy currency as well.

@Fynlar: i often soloed koios on my dnc/nin solo, and you must have some terribad dncs there because i took him out in less than 4 minutes when he didn't use stoneskin, lol. Dnc's DoT is sorely underrated in abyssea due to bad dncs fulltiming fan dance and using WAY too much evasion.
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#6 Dec 03 2011 at 11:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Excellent, appreciate the responses. Sounds like Ochain is probably the way to go. That block rate is just too good (as you seem to take far more melee damage than magic damage overall).
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d(~.^)b <(Quetzalcoatl)
#7 Dec 04 2011 at 12:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I suggest ochain. I have ochain and i gotta say it really turns the job around. It becomes a **** of a tank for VW maintaining 90%+ shield block rate even without shield skill gear on. And those NM usually hit fairly hard, so you're mitigating 200-300 damage per swing, this allows you to keep your hate capped a lot easier as well as reducing your healers' hate.


That's all well and good, but you're going to be riding Fanatic's in any decent Voidwatch group anyway; Ochain is doing precisely nothing for you while Physical Shield is up, while Aegis is still providing 87.5% magic reduction. Advantage: Aegis. Ochain is for tanking Zilart adds.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#8 Dec 04 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I see your fanatic's, and i challenge you with a fool's drink. It's the same thing, you can't argue the shields based on temp items that get replenished at the same rate and make the opposite shield worthless. It's an equal battle if you're considering 100% always having temps.
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Drg 95,Pld 95, Dnc 95, rdm lv95, pup 95, blm lv90, thf 90
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"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
#9 Dec 04 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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No, it isn't the same thing. Any decent group is restoring temps regularly, and you can only have Physical or Magic Shield up, not both, and Physical Shield is much better due to how it blocks most TP moves as well. Ergo, you always use Fanatic's over Fool's, and as stated above, any decent group is restoring temps fast enough that you can ride it throughout the majority of the fight. And again, Fanatic's makes Ochain 100% useless, whereas Aegis still has the increased Bash damage and considerable block rate while using Fool's.

Advantage: Aegis
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#10 Dec 04 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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LyltiaofLakshmi wrote:
No, it isn't the same thing. Any decent group is restoring temps regularly, and you can only have Physical or Magic Shield up, not both, and Physical Shield is much better due to how it blocks most TP moves as well.
Advantage: Aegis


Shields can block physical TP moves as well, so i really don't see this advantage you're pointing out since we're assuming perfect temps. What dmg is going to get through a 100% magic reduction and 95+% shield block rate against all physical attacks.
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Dragonlord
elvaan male
Drg 95,Pld 95, Dnc 95, rdm lv95, pup 95, blm lv90, thf 90
Leviathan
55 fishing,58 cooking, 23 Woodworking
"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
#11 Dec 04 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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I'm beginning to question whether you've actually done any Voidwatch~

Fanatic's nullifies just about all TP moves, with a few exceptions, regardless of whether they deal physical or magical damage ( or deal no damage at all ). This is why you ride Fanatic's no matter what shield you're packing, as TP moves are always the most dangerous attacks the NMs possess.

If you want to ride Fool's because you don't like how useless Fanatic's makes your Ochain go for it, but you're gonna be eating a lot more dirt than an AH PLD who knows how to use their temps.
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rdmcandie wrote:
RDM can attain an almost static 50% reduction to recast time, SCH can over shoot this for a total of 60% reduction under Alacrity (provided you are wearing loafers and keeping dark weather on yourself)

rdmcandie wrote:
MACC is a joke, any job with access to mage gear can hit close the MACC cap on legion mobs, which is why my BRD/RDM can land slow/para/blind despite having only 150 skill (from /RDM.)
#12 Dec 08 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Appreciate the responses folks. Looking at everything overall, what would you say is more effective? I am sure I wont just use it for VW, but anything we do that needs a meatshield. Is it typically easier to buff up your physical defense, or your magical defense? Seems if you wanted to the -phy dmg sword, or mdb sword, you could compensate, but my end sword will hopefully be an Almace (as I am a BLU also). Looks like it really boils down to 20-30% block rate vs. insane magic resistance. It would seem to me that the magic reduction is harder to come by, but for everyday stuff, the blockrate is probably nice?
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#13 Dec 08 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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Well, Aegis reduce magic dmg taken by 45% otside of normal cap (50%) and with level 99 it will probably bump up to 50% (following trend).

So basicly you can be immune to magic dmg with Aegis if you're fast on gear changes during fights.

Now, Ochain have insane block rate, making it favorable vs. fast and hard hitting monsters (with few magical moves).

So as the old saying goes, ************ situational".

However, if I was to chose one, I'd take Aegis. It's a lot more common to see tanks drop because of some insane big magical dmg move than from consecutive normal hits.

And also, it's made of gold...




Ps. It's not impossible that SE might be adding content where temp. items are not involved, ie. making gear discussions based on 'one' event biased.
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#14 Dec 08 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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crasyk wrote:
Well, Aegis reduce magic dmg taken by 45% otside of normal cap (50%) and with level 99 it will probably bump up to 50% (following trend).

So basicly you can be immune to magic dmg with Aegis if you're fast on gear changes during fights.


Overall -mdt from gear including aegis caps at -87.5%. You can not reduce more than that through gear.
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Dragonlord
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"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
#15 Dec 09 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Drgnlord wrote:
crasyk wrote:
Well, Aegis reduce magic dmg taken by 45% otside of normal cap (50%) and with level 99 it will probably bump up to 50% (following trend).

So basicly you can be immune to magic dmg with Aegis if you're fast on gear changes during fights.


Overall -mdt from gear including aegis caps at -87.5%. You can not reduce more than that through gear.


All wiki say is it's independent of the natural cap and theres really not much info on the -mdt page either. But if this is tested and true (hard cap at 87,5%) my opinion is stil the same. It just an opportunity to use less -mdt gear and more resist/mdb gear. 37,5% more -mdt over other tanks is a lifesaver.
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#16 Dec 09 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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crasyk wrote:

All wiki say is it's independent of the natural cap and theres really not much info on the -mdt page either. But if this is tested and true (hard cap at 87,5%) my opinion is stil the same. It just an opportunity to use less -mdt gear and more resist/mdb gear. 37,5% more -mdt over other tanks is a lifesaver.


Yeah the info isn't on the wikis. I've come across it through ffxiah forums. It will be much more evident when aegis gets the -50% MDT coupled w/ -50% MDT from gear/shell doesn't fully mitigate the dmg.
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Dragonlord
elvaan male
Drg 95,Pld 95, Dnc 95, rdm lv95, pup 95, blm lv90, thf 90
Leviathan
55 fishing,58 cooking, 23 Woodworking
"Show me....by what principlesss art thou driven?"
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