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#27 Jul 02 2011 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Return1 wrote:
20% more accuracy isn't 26% more damage, it's 26% more hits/WSes. Each hit or WS would be weaker, making the value less than you've stated.

God. ****. You're retarded. It's 26% from baseline versus <20% from baseline. You can't get it through your thick f*cking skull that Twenty-six is greater than twenty or less.

It's 126x 100 damage hits versus 100x 118 damage hits and 25x 1000 damage WS versus 20x 1180 damage WS. Want me to show you how to use a calculator? I figured you passed third grade but you're making me wonder.

You f*cking ignore that the accuracy value I'm using is based on Finuve's allegedly parsed data from a ******* Voidwatch mob. Meanwhile you make up hypothetical level 104 mobs and say I'm the one pulling numbers out of my ***?

You're f*cking pathetic, you know that? Do whatever you like to win an argument on the internet, I don't have to do ****-all to prove you wrong at this point. You're doing everything possible to make yourself look like you were right and I can't stop you making sh*t up and spouting garbage in the process. Just stop already. You've lost, you don't even have to admit to it. Just go away.

I'm ashamed to have to explain concepts to an Apoc DRK that were established in motherf*cking 2004.

Edited, Jul 2nd 2011 10:28pm by Raelix
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#28 Jul 02 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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#29 Jul 03 2011 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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Oh leave them be, Kao, it's funny.
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#30 Jul 03 2011 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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God. ****. You're retarded. It's 26% from baseline versus <20% from baseline. You can't get it through your thick f*cking skull that Twenty-six is greater than twenty or less.


From baseline yes, you're right, and if that's what we're talking about then it's true. I rushed while posting as I was busy. That says nothing of your presentation though. We had been talking about RCB and pizza, the pizza would given the same accuracy bonus in either and since you're a chronic napkin-mather I hastily assumed you were "improper graphing" so to speak, so forgive me for not picking up on it sooner.

Quote:
You f*cking ignore that the accuracy value I'm using is based on Finuve's allegedly parsed data from a ******* Voidwatch mob. Meanwhile you make up hypothetical level 104 mobs and say I'm the one pulling numbers out of my ***?


I didn't ignore ****. I'm saying that there are situations where an averaged 28 ACC over time, is less of a bonus than 100 ATK, arguing for DE merits over merits over MS or DS, which was one of the major points of this thread, not your obsession with ******* pizza. This situation happens to occur in some Current VW battles and updated dynamis mobs, and will definitely happen in more events to come. We know for a fact we will have more, powerful HNM type mobs from VW this next update, and SE won't leave the game without HNMs at 99, validating the use of the DE merits. It's not theorycrafting, it's common sense.

And which admin was kao again?
#31 Jul 03 2011 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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My concern was that people would use Diabolic Eye as a major source of Accuracy. It plainly isn't, especially when only up 3/5ths of the time. It should never be a first choice or be majorly considered as part of a 'build'.

Where do you get 28acc? Did you apply DE's '3/5ths of the time' hobbling to the 40+ accuracy you get from Pizza?

My statement is simple: Accuracy has always been, and will always be, more important than Attack when both are uncapped; this is true even in vastly disparate values (40 accuracy vs 100 attack). Diabolic Eye isn't enough for Voidwatch mobs as shown here, plus that it generally sucks unless your fights are under three minutes (Is it more important to be hitting the mob at the start of the fight or when it's almost dead? See?). If Diabolic Eye could be up 100% of the time it would be incredible, but as it is you have to pop Souleater in the downtime to maintain the same accuracy and you still have a full minute of -10% hitrate.

It worked fine at Mamool and Bird camps where we had a known, tested, verified, mathable accuracy target and could build up/down sets if we wanted to be so neurotic. Are you gonna stop in the middle of every fight to check your parse and decide if you need to put DE up or not?

If you wanna be sure you're hitting something, though: Seriously... why **** around? Swallow your f*cking pride and eat some ******* pizza.

People cream their pants over 16% more total damage from Aftermath ODD on 2-hander Empyrean weapons. It takes just +25 accuracy to see a 16% damage increase from accuracy if it puts you at or close to cap. How's that for a little perspective?

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 2:32am by Raelix
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#32 Jul 03 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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My concern was that people would use Diabolic Eye as a major source of Accuracy. It plainly isn't, especially when only up 3/5ths of the time. It should never be a first choice or be majorly considered as part of a 'build'.


I would never suggest DE be used a s a major source of ACC. I would suggest it be used to for those situations where you can't cap acc, be it you're just a few acc away from cap, or a mob you can't hit for **** with sushi. I was also the guy with 3 different builds though for any types of mob I would face before I had Apoc, so I know ****'s situational.

Quote:
Where do you get 28acc? Did you apply DE's '3/5ths of the time' hobbling to the 40+ accuracy you get from Pizza?


Yes, I did.

Quote:
My statement is simple: Accuracy has always been, and will always be, more important than Attack when both are uncapped; this is true even in vastly disparate values (40 accuracy vs 100 attack).


When uncapped, ACC is more important by a large margin, but it's not always the answer. When you get high level, high defense mobs, adding more attack can be more important than capping acc. Old School Kirin's a perfect example. You ate meat at kirin, even when your hit rate was awful. His defense and level correction would floor a lot of job's or people's pDIF to 0 and if happened often. Getting more 0's didn't mean ****. Now sure it's an extreme example, but there are some mobs in the current game where say a 15% boost to accuracy isn't worth as much as 100 attack, and their numbers are growing in this next update.


Quote:
People cream their pants over 16% more total damage from Aftermath ODD on 2-hander Empyrean weapons. It takes just +25 accuracy to see a 16% damage increase from accuracy if it puts you at or close to cap. How's that for a little perspective?


That's wonderful, but what's so hard to get about there being situations where 100 attack is doing more than that 25 ACC?

I'm all for you swinging pizza when it is better. I'll stick to my RCB since I TP in 81ACC from gear minimum, not counting DEX+ or Skill+. There's also 10 ACC from the Hasso I fulltime. I could easily put in another 30acc without really trying.
#33 Jul 03 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Two words:

Dia II
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#34 Jul 03 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Dia III
#35 Jul 03 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, but never any excuse to not have Dia II at the very least because it comes with WHM or RDM sub.

More fun perspectiveism: Dia II on a 400 defense mob is equivalent to adding 85 or more attack for an average DRK. Dia III is equivalent to adding 130+ for the same DRK.

You just hate when napkin math makes your ideas look downright silly.
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Nilatai wrote:
Vlorsutes wrote:
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#36 Jul 03 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
Yeah, but never any excuse to not have Dia II at the very least because it comes with WHM or RDM sub.

More fun perspectiveism: Dia II on a 400 defense mob is equivalent to adding 85 or more attack for an average DRK. Dia III is equivalent to adding 130+ for the same DRK.

You just hate when napkin math makes your ideas look downright silly.


And thus you have demonstrated why I say every RDM should put two merits into Dia III. Two because I feel whatever it is you need to do, you should be able to do it in 60s, sometimes 30s just ain't long enough.

And guys, the new VW mobs have crazy defense vs what we're used to. Their basically an abyssea NM but minus all the abyssea buffs. If you want to get a feel for it, go fight Briarus, Mothra or Azdaja (just pulled three out my a$$) without anyone having any atma's or crour buffs. Would be fun except the drops are rare and mostly side grades, I hope to god this isn't "the new endgame". Hard fights are cool, but the loot must drop or otherwise it just becomes Salvage v2.

My last request is that people take context into account when doing napkin math. SE has made it plainly obvious the game isn't about which job can deal X damage faster then Y damage against a brick wall with infinite HP. Damage now is more about burst damage over a period of 60s then a period of resting and waiting as the next NM is poped / proced. I think it would be more useful to the community to know the comparisons of builds and methods over a short duration vs a marathon merit PT.

Ohh and for fun, stack Dia III with Agnon. 35% defense down is 53.84% attack bonus to everyone in the alliance, that NM is about to get raped.
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#37 Jul 03 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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don't bother trying to reason with these two. just sit back with popcorn. it's funner, and safer.
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#38 Jul 03 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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And guys, the new VW mobs have crazy defense vs what we're used to. Their basically an abyssea NM but minus all the abyssea buffs. If you want to get a feel for it, go fight Briarus, Mothra or Azdaja (just pulled three out my a$$) without anyone having any atma's or crour buffs. Would be fun except the drops are rare and mostly side grades, I hope to god this isn't "the new endgame". Hard fights are cool, but the loot must drop or otherwise it just becomes Salvage v2.


My point exactly. Without good buffs/debuffs my well geared Apoc DRK can have trouble getting out of the double digits on some of those mobs.

I'm guessing the gear will pick up, and once procs are streamlined, we'll see more drops.

Quote:
And thus you have demonstrated why I say every RDM should put two merits into Dia III. Two because I feel whatever it is you need to do, you should be able to do it in 60s, sometimes 30s just ain't long enough.


I had to boot RDMs from my shell because they refused to "waste merits" in Dia III. Because that last 2% slow is so important amirite? I hate RDMs without Dia3.

#39 Jul 04 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Return1 wrote:

And which admin was kao again?


The one with the ban button and the highest ban count of any of the administrative staff here by several thousand. Also known as the Senior Forum Administrator, or the "yes Kaolian, I'll stop doing that thing you told me not to do now because I don't want to get banned." admin.

Take your pick. And by all means, please, find out if I am bluffing. I'll give you a hint though.

I never, ever bluff about such things.

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#40 Jul 04 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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<3
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#41 Jul 05 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Even if you never had a reason to use DE it would still be more useful then muted soul, if not for the animation alone. DS could be argued for the italian DRKs but loldrk magic. I switched to a 6hit for harder mobs and its working good so far.

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Use RCB and save DE for the NMs = profit.
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#42 Jul 05 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like DS because it's kinda meh. If the mob is going to resist dark magic, it'll resist with or without DS. MS is kinda pointless as you'll cap hate retardedly fast even if you did waste 5/5 merits for 1 minute of half enmity generation every 5 minutes. Some people just take their opinions and themselves too seriously.
#43 Jul 05 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Love the double standard when we were just talking about non-Abyssea Voidwatch (Tanked) fights and Souleater being the thing that will push you to hate cap fastest anyway.

Still have to 5/5 DE for it to matter at all to go past 1/5, which means you're ***-out on Dark Seal (which lands Drain II on Absolute Virtue = more zerg output, same can probably be said of Voidwatch mobs) or you laughably take fewer merits in Desperate Blows. Not saying that you need Dark Seal, but it does have and will have applications.

Remember my phrasing: Partial merits are 'less useless' in Muted Soul than Diabolic Eye.

Some people think stealthy insults make their opinions more valid than others'.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 8:52pm by Raelix
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#44 Jul 05 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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DS isn't going to land Drain II on a dark resistant mob, especially since most resistant mobs have a -mdmg% towards the element as well as a crap ton of dark resist. It will land on high level mobs, but you can do that through gear right now without any downsides. You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE, but then you lose other stats as well, and the -HP% doesn't matter for the most part as long as you aren't using it with Souleater like a total ******.

5/5 MS just seems like a waste, DRK easily caps hate in abyssea, and outside DRK is probably there as Tank or a DD/Co-tank unless you use a whole alliance of people for some reason, but hey if you use a playstyle that involves flinging more people at fights then go for it.
#45 Jul 05 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Return1 wrote:
You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE

Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.

I'm just gonna go out on a pretty stable limb and say DE is garbage compared to any other accuracy source. You're either capped accuracy on something, or you should be eating Pizza or bringing better buffs. Ignoring that it's only up 60% of the time at best doesn't make it useful.

In any fight under three minutes going /DRG will serve you better, both in terms of more accuracy and Jumps, AND gives you better use of Souleater AND gives you an opportunity to put Muted Soul to work (High Jump).

Keep up the DE peen sucking, I'm just even more convinced it's worthless now. Your penchant for being a cookiecutter blowhard meathead must-max-out(-but-using-all-the-wrong-ideals) DD has trumped even my patience, and I just found the 'Ignore' function and have decided to do the DRK forum a favor by using it.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 9:10pm by Raelix
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#46 Jul 05 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#47 Jul 05 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.


You still make a tradeoff. You're trading attack for the accuracy.

Quote:
I'm just gonna go out on a pretty stable limb and say DE is garbage compared to any other accuracy source. You're either capped accuracy on something, or you should be eating Pizza or bringing better buffs. Ignoring that it's only up 60% of the time at best doesn't make it useful.


If you're at 85-94% Accuracy, DE is doing something for you, and pizza is a waste, period.

Quote:
In any fight under three minutes going /DRG will serve you better, both in terms of more accuracy and Jumps, AND gives you better use of Souleater AND gives you an opportunity to put Muted Soul to work (High Jump).


******* horrible advice. Godawful. Offensively, /SAM gives a 6hit, meditate, hasso, sekka, and Zanshin making up for some ACC. Defensively, /SAM also offers Seigan TE which can negate powerful tp moves or several attacks, even adding some damage with counters.

All you do is napkin math only considering what you want, and give out terrible advice.
#48 Jul 05 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.

Used to be fun, you know. Then recently no matter how hard I grill him on what a giant steaming pile of sh*t DE is he still clings to it like mommy's tit. "sh*t is situational" doesn't even apply because the situation to 5/5 it for doesn't even exist (Fight >5min, or a string of fights with <7min between fights, uncapped accuracy).

You don't enjoy this any more than I do. You advocated the up/down sets to make use of it back in ToAU and that was a good idea because the accuracy target was static, Dark Seal was unnecessary, and Muted Soul had no application whatsoever, and it was still questionably worth the merits for that 2% increase from putting Ares's Cuirass on.

Edited, Jul 5th 2011 11:00pm by Raelix
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There's always...not trolling him?

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#49 Jul 06 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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gigasnail wrote:
my god, it's like watching a bumfights marathon.


Bling Bling wants his Crack.
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#50 Jul 06 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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shintasama wrote:
gigasnail wrote:
if everyone else followed your example, there'd be world peace and cake for all. you will find i am a generous god.

Don't listen to this! Giga is a cruel tentacle raping god!

lolgaxe wrote:
I voted for giga because I, for one, welcome our tentacled overlords.

His Excellency SillyXSara wrote:
We like our Bisexuals with tits, thank you.
#51 Jul 06 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Raelix wrote:
Return1 wrote:
You could easily get 20acc in gear to replace DE

Or you can just eat Pizza, which was the whole argument in the first place.
Return1 wrote:
You still make a tradeoff. You're trading attack for the accuracy.
Everything else these two have argued about is just an extension of this.

Boils down to +40ish acc via pizza's flat 10% total acc boost vs RCB's 90-ish att advantage over pizza. Stalwart soul makes soul eater much more viable to use every chance you can, increasing the use of muted soul's -enmity on fresh mobs. Anything lasting long enough to use souleater more than once the merits probably won't help as much unless you got KO'd along the way. Though it'd be a different story if swinging a multi-hit weapon, actually on /drg for just this purpose, and want someone else to stay tanking the duration (can't imagine you'd not take hate during this though; is capped MS that strong an effect to prevent taking hate during that kind of souleater barrage?).

I'm still not used to the thought of spamming souleater; just got used to not using it much in the old days unfortunately. You obviously can now, and with the most evasive mobs not really flooring your acc quite yet, pizza is a pretty easy option to use to help maintain x-hit builds and haste gear. The lost att from not using RCB really isn't that big a deal due to how much att drk gets normally (I can't imagine you'd be att floored on anything).
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