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#27 Feb 08 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really have an issue so much with MNK and NIN damage so much as the fact that they output such high damage WHILE being an effective tank. Given that MNK and NIN can tank very effectively, RNG -SHOULD- do superior damage to them. All RNG can really bring for the most part is damage and they are the only TRUE glass cannon left in the game. Thing is of course, when RNG's have to turtle up through shadows or whatnot, their damage drops quite a bit, but this is exactly what should happen, regardless of class. However, for whatever reason, this is not the case for the current 'tanks' and hasn't been for quite some time now. Defense comes at the cost of offense, it's Basic RPG Design 101. Why on earth hasn't this been addressed?
#28 Feb 09 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I started this game on NA launch date with the whole intent on being a RNG one day, and god damnit if I'm giving it up. I was there through the highs and lows of RNG. My Abyssea static laugh that I actively want to go after RNG gear, telling me over and over again that RNG is probably the most worthless job in the game now. Even before Abyssea, I was reduced to a Shadowbind biotch.

People have pointed out most the problems over and over again within this thread so there is no point in beating a dead horse. SE won't change it anytime soon, right now they are making so much of this game for NIN, MNKs and WARs, it gets old.

Why I had to pick two jobs to be my favorites that SE laughs at the most, RNG and WHM.
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#29 Feb 10 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Kolvar wrote:
I was reduced to a Shadowbind biotch.
I was always more of a Ixion/Sand Worm Widescan *****.
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#30 Feb 10 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Why I had to pick two jobs to be my favorites that SE laughs at the most, RNG and WHM.


WHM?
That's easily one of the best jobs in the game now. Cure V and VI and almost limitless MP. How do you think all those MNK's survive tanking.
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#31 Feb 10 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Agreed, when MP is a non-issue, the hate (or lack thereof) of C5 and C6 makes whm very very strong. Also they proc like half of the light day grellow spells :p
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#32 Feb 11 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagnann wrote:
How do you think all those MNK's survive tanking.

C5 and C6 are also the reason WHMs can survive cure-bombing those MNKs. If I had to keep someone's HP bar full with C3/4 alone (if I could even keep up, likely not) I'd probably have major enmity issues. I don't mind curing on SCH or RDM for XP, but when it comes to NMs, I don't even consider a job other than WHM. Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.

Edited, Feb 11th 2011 11:27am by VxSote
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#33 Feb 11 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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I really don't know what the solution could be. There is a natural limit on how much damage a ranger can do. As soon as you pull hate and the mob is 3.0' away from you damage drops significantly. Even if rangers could take a hit better there would still be an artificial limit on damage because as soon as you pulled hate the distance penalty would kill you (and then we get to watch mnks pump out 3k damage while we run back to the sweet spot).

Not only that, even if rangers sub ninja for a little survivability, they just can't utilize utsu the way melee do. When a melee loses shadows they simply cast utsu. When a ranger loses shadows they have to wait for their current /ra to end to cast utsu, all the while getting pummeled. I stopped playing ranger when I actually put off hitting my /ra macro in order to wait for the mob to take 2 more shadows so I could reapply them.

It just seems like an exercise in futility to me. There is no point to gearing rng to its very best because all that will do is make the mob come at you sooner. I really enjoyed the job for over half a decade, and no doubt many 'lifers' will not be sad that one more poser like me has gone on to greener pastures. But until there are major enmity changes and great rangers are rewarded with something more than a 2 ton dragon bashing their face in 30 seconds sooner than average rangers receive the same 'reward'.....
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#34 Feb 11 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.


Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.

Quote:
I really enjoyed the job for over half a decade, and no doubt many 'lifers' will not be sad that one more poser like me has gone on to greener pastures. But until there are major enmity changes and great rangers are rewarded with something more than a 2 ton dragon bashing their face in 30 seconds sooner than average rangers receive the same 'reward'.....


I'd prefer to call you "someone that's seen the light" rather than a "poser". I love RNG too. Almost as much as I love COR. But I feel a lot less useful in my LS on those jobs than in the past.

I still think the answer is in a major enmity effect rather than in a major defense upgrade. We need the target to stay at a distance to be effective DD'ers. IF it moves, we ***** ourselves and the DD of other melees. The only conceivable fix i can see for that is to change the enmity equation for ranged damage. In fact I'd suggest that SE put our sweetspot in AoE range (say Xbow distance for all ranged attacks) and make ranged shots cause minimal enmity. Then we can still take damage so we aren't "safe", but we won't move the mob and **** off everyone else including ourselves.
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#35 Feb 12 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
I'm sick of caring about this job. I feel like a god **** Cubs fan. And I'm not even old enough to remember the glory days.

Though I technically won every parse I partook in before Abyssea... ;o
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#36 Feb 12 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Default
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Dartagnann wrote:
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Besides, do you know how long it takes to fill 4k HP with C4? Lol.


Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.
Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.
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#37 Feb 12 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.


Rather keep my good gear on and use an Atma with 30 MND and -30 enm. If I'm mostly healing on RDM it's not like there are a lot better atoms out there.
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#38 Feb 12 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
Isn't the goodness of a gear dependent on the task at hand..? lol
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#39 Feb 13 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Isn't the goodness of a gear dependent on the task at hand


Yes and if I'm healing on RDM, MND, refresh, cure potency are my most important gears. With Allure I don't have to neglect those areas to stack a ton of -enm gear. And it gives an MP boost and MND as well, making it one of the best healing atmas around. Two refresh atmas and Allure and I'm a healing machine... Aside from the fact SE won't give RDM Cure V ; ;
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#40 Feb 13 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
Refresh gear is not an important part of a cure set... And if losing 4 refresh MP from gear swapping is make-or-break to your mission, there are larger issues at hand.

As for MND, Allure's 30 MND on Cure IV will gain you about 9 HP (http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/cure/Cure_Calculator.html). Atma of the Rescuer (10% cure potency) would do more for your cures.

On the enmity front, Minikin Monstrosity = 20, goliard saio 25, goliard chapeau 29, pax grip 33, novia earring 40, Estq. Hoseaux +2 47, -enmity merits = -50. Not that there is only one way to go on stacking enmity, I just throw together what I have laying around, mostly from WHM.

I like Allure objectively. Max MP just doesn't have a place over Refresh, Auto-Reraise, Curepot, or MAB atmas, and the other benefits can be compensated for with gear. Maybe Allure would help on WHM or RDM/SCH if you're trying to go for a conserve MP setup... Though to be honest, 10% lower magic costs and a free cure IV every four minutes hardly make up for lack of Stun, Dispel (it's a hassle to get to dispel on /SCH, eats a strat and makes you pop your arts recasts), Bind, sleepga, etc.
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#41 Feb 13 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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The fact is, I don't have any better Atma for that 3rd slot. So why not use it. I don't have golliard gear and see no reason to get it. I don't have novia and again see no reason to get it. I have MM, Allure and Full Moon Atma which as a healer gives me 15 mp refresh, 30 MND, -50 enm, 40INT.
With that I have maxes potency on enfeebs, lots of mp for cures and capped enmity even before gear. So I can put on gear that lessens casting time and adds more refresh. There isn't much cure potency out there for RDM but I could gear that too. The last thing is too worry about enm gear.

Edit: and MAB Atma are useless to a healing RDM, which is what I was talking about. If you are main healer on RDM you are just casting CUre IV repetitively, other than haste on tank and a few enfeebs and -nas. You never have time to nuke in that situation. Maybe once we get cure V that will change. But healing in Abyssea on RDM is a cure IV fest.

Edited, Feb 13th 2011 1:48pm by Dartagnann
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#42 Feb 14 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The fact is, I don't have any better Atma for that 3rd slot.


It's borderline irresponsible to go to an NM fight and not use Apoc. Yeah, **** isn't supposed to hit the fan. But when it does, would you prefer to homepoint and make your friends zombie kite it, or get back up and keep on tickin?
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#43 Feb 14 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Default
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Are you mainhealing a Mnk/War fulltiming Zerk/Counterstance or 2handers fulltiming Hasso (In which case you shouldn't be on Rdm main healing in the first place)? Otherwise there is 0 reason you don't have time to toss out nukes while main healing on Rdm. I'm not buying it.

Edited, Feb 14th 2011 9:26am by Neisan
#44 Feb 14 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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It's borderline irresponsible to go to an NM fight and not use Apoc. Yeah, sh*t isn't supposed to hit the fan. But when it does, would you prefer to homepoint and make your friends zombie kite it, or get back up and keep on tickin?


I believe you have to beat Shinryu to get Apocalypse. Last I checked that wasn't handed to you when you enter Abyssea. Our LS does Abyssea main bosses and Caturae once a week and I've still got 3 Caturae to go. We're trying to make sure everyone gets through so there's been repeats in there and I've missed a couple weeks do to RL stuff. To say its irresponsible is a bit over the top. My view is that its irresponsible to neglect the real world to do stuff in a game.

Quote:
Are you mainhealing a Mnk/War fulltiming Zerk/Counterstance or 2handers fulltiming Hasso (In which case you shouldn't be on Rdm main healing in the first place)? Otherwise there is 0 reason you don't have time to toss out nukes while main healing on Rdm. I'm not buying it.


WHM leaves. You get asked to main heal on RDM. You do what you are asked. Tank is MNK. Its Cure IV spammage. Is that really a hard concept? Other people could handle nuking. Why risk getting caught in a long *** casting animation as your tank gets nailed with a big TP move? Just keep healing and win the fight. No use trying for hero points.

Seriously, some of you people need to get out more and see that, while this game is fun, there are other things more important in life than worrying about what atma you are toting.
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#45 Feb 14 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
How is it not obvious to you that we're discussing hypothetical situations, and not literally bashing you for not having apoc?
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#46 Feb 15 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Dartagnann wrote:
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Shouln't need Allure's -enmity for Cure4. It's not that hard to hit the -enmity cap of 50: Pax Grip, Goliard Head, Delta Earring, Goliard Saio, Seraph Mittens, Trooper's Ring, Errant Cape, Theta Sash, Mahatma legs, Crow Gaiters. That's 46 and it's all easy stuff to get. It's capped with -enmity merits, 4 off cap without, and that is excluding any high-price items like Novia Earring or Flygja Torque or Failnaught, all of which would let you drop some of the worser pieces for more MND or Cure Pot.


Rather keep my good gear on and use an Atma with 30 MND and -30 enm. If I'm mostly healing on RDM it's not like there are a lot better atoms out there.
What good gear? Rdm gets sweet @#%^ all cure pot gear. add-on legs and head if they're not used for something else, fyljga torque, serpentes feet/hands, roundel earring. That's it. What else are you going to put in the other slots? Mnd? LolMND. In the other slots you put FC, Haste and -enmity. If you're concidering "good gear" and using all the Cure Pot stuff there then you could run with the setup:
Staff, Pax Grip, Failnaught
MKD Hat, Fyljga, Novia, Roundel
Goliard, Serpentes, Troopers, Metanoia
Errant Cape, Theta Sash, ASA Legs, Serpentes

That's using max Cure Pot gear, and haste in slots with no cure pot available (excepting waist). After that you still have -43 Enmity. -47 if you have -enmity merits, -48 if you +1 the fylgya torque. The augments I've used for ASA/MKD armors are cure pot and haste in both instances. If you put in a haste belt then you're down to -38 enmity.

With this your Allure atma is giving you MP (which you hardly ever need), MND (Which does very little for C4) and only -2 to -12 enmity.
What you should be using instead is any 3 of Rescuer, Harmony, Minkin, Ambition and Merciless Matriach if you're a dedicated healer.
Allure's +Mnd, +MP and -enmity is not better than any of those atmas (Minkin's Refresh, rescuer and Harmony's 10% cure pot, Merciless's Superior Macc and FC, and Ambition's refresh and FC).

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 9:35am by Noodles
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#47 Feb 15 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
/vote Augur's Gloves and Estq. Hoseaux +2 feet, then a haste/enmity/cMP/costume enhancement belt.

What was this thread about again?

Also; Noodles why don't you count the -20 Enmity from Minikin? For a mage there is nothing else to consider as a top 3 atma; it gives you the MP to cast the spell, the -Enmity to get away with it, and the INT to make it count (admittedly to a lesser extent on non-INT mages).

Edited, Feb 15th 2011 4:10am by tertoonetwothreefour
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#48 Feb 15 2011 at 6:35 AM Rating: Default
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The Fast Cast on Matriarch is actually somewhat useless for Rdm, thanks to FC Trait Rdm caps FC in 2 pieces of gear (AF+Relic is actually abit over the FC cap but can't hit it with just one).
#49 Feb 15 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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tertoonetwothreefour wrote:
Also; Noodles why don't you count the -20 Enmity from Minikin?
Because I forgot about it. Minkin's -20 Enmity makes Allure even more worthless.

Quote:
The Fast Cast on Matriarch is actually somewhat useless for Rdm, thanks to FC Trait Rdm caps FC in 2 pieces of gear (AF+Relic is actually abit over the FC cap but can't hit it with just one).
That is true, if you're using Af Hat and Relic Body, Merciless's Fast Cast is irrelevant.
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#50 Feb 15 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
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How is it not obvious to you that we're discussing hypothetical situations, and not literally bashing you for not having apoc?


I thought this all started when I mentioned a real situation where I had to heal a MNK.
Quote:
Yes. As someone that has tried to heal for NM fights with RDM, I know exactly of what you speek. I spent the whole time just casting Cure 4 over and over again and if it wasn't for Atma of Allure for major enm-, I would have been top of the hate list pretty quickly.

So it wasn't hypothetical. I was ranted on for using allure. An Atma with superior MND and superior -enm in a healing role.

Quote:
What you should be using instead is any 3 of Rescuer, Harmony, Minkin, Ambition and Merciless Matriach if you're a dedicated healer.


Well since I only have one of those, I guess I'm stuck. I wasn't aware that the mechanics of the game had changed and MND was no longer useful for Cures and enfeebs. I will avoid using Allure in the future.

Now can we get back on topic. RDM is a job I pull out when I'm made to, so discussing it on a RNG forum is getting tiresome.
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#51 Feb 15 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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MND has never been a worthwhile stat to use for Cure 4 unless there was no Haste/FC/-Enmity/Cure Pot available in that slot.

Comparing me saying MND is crap for Cure4 to mean "MND is crap for all healing and enfeebling spells" is ******* retarded. Put down the spade and stop digging yourself a hole.

Also go get Harmony, takes like a few dom ops and a quick quest. Rescuer isn't exactly hard either concidering a pickup dyna-xarc group can usually kill DL now even without a full brd rotation.
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