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Ranger still a competitive DD?Follow

#1 Jun 05 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Hey might catch some flack for this but i'm wondering if rng is still a competitive DD.

I know back in the day ranger's used to be quite good.. but I swear, I have not seen a single one in party since abyssea came out.

I've heard from someone that since abyssea the jobs DOT isn't as good compared to others, but is this true or are they just bad for triggers? (except for blue for piercing)

I try to specialize in jobs and am interested in jobs I don't frequently see around.

Very interested in leveling either this or sch as one of the last jobs I get to level 90, so was trying to get some opinions from any (if any) who still main ranger. Also looks like jishnu's radiance is awesome--yet i've never seen it ingame, any opinions are appreciated.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 12:28pm by Thelastremainingintime
#2 Jun 06 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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OK, I'll bite.

I find that RNG is still a great deal of fun but not necessarily the most useful. The lack of procs is a pain. Bounty shot isn't godly or really a reason to definitely bring a RNG over another job. Haste is always unfair. Ammo is scarce and expensive (personally not a problem since I can craft most of it).

Defense is a bit of a problem to some people. There's jobism against RNG in the general population. No Crit WS and all.

That being said, RNG can be up near SAM in pure WS spam if prepped for it. Sekka > WS > WS > Barrage > WS > Double Shot > Meditate > WS > EES > Shot > WS can be fun if you can stay alive that long (or your target can).
#3 Jun 06 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Skubsteve wrote:
Defense is a bit of a problem to some people. There's jobism against RNG in the general population. No Crit WS and all.

Wut? Arching Arrow, Jishnu's Radiance

Those aside Sidewinders usually do really good at least in EXP situations.

From what I've seen with other RNGs is they do respectable damage at least in EXP settings. Unfortunately no one in our LS goes RNG to events so I don't know about NMs. Sorry I wasn't running parses when I had RNGs in the groups.

Honestly I think the issue is getting ammo unless you farm and make your own, at least the few times I tried to get on RNG I was having to use Scorpion Arrows because nothing else was available.

Between SCH and RNG I would say SCH would be easier to level since you can provide Azure lights for EXP groups but neither of the 2 is "needed" at events. a BLM can cover all yellow procs a SCH can do and if people are after blue procs they go during blunt time since a MNK + WHM can cover all of them

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 10:15am by Zagen
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#4 Jun 06 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
@TheLastRemainingInTime:

You probably don't see RNG in XP because anyone who has enough time and gear invested in RNG to keep with it in these trying times has long since capped it out. Also, they don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of gil to merit/timefarm when they can just as easily come on a melee for free. That and RNG is nigh useless in lowman, so there's not really any current demand for it outside of Maat and thrill seeking.

With Abyssea armor/buffs taken into account, here is how the landscape has changed since the days of pink bird massacre: RNG now hits harder, which is negated by DDs capping out crit rate. RNG can get 2, 5, or 7/tic regain to drop a hit or two off TP phase, negated by DD having atmas that turn anything into a joytoy. RNG has Sidewinder on top of already superior base damage and FSTR2 considerations, negated by DDs having native MultiCrit WS. RNG can WS spam like a 2hr SAM, negated by the time spent with timers down afterwards. Unless you hog the ISLs...

Jishnu's is quite possibly RNG's saving grace in the above diatribe. Simply put, without a good MultiCrit WS, you can't get the most out of the exponential returns on crit boosting atmas. Even with Jishnu's, the fact you can't have Double/Triple attacks during it is a serious setback. The fact that RNG regains and Store TPs for so much of its TP makes the ODD additional effect of a Gandiva that much less potent.

RNG just isn't suited to Abyssea. If RNG got boosted to the same extent that others have in abyssea - 110 MAB and 50 INT for BLM, 10-20/tic refresh for all mages, and everything listed above for melee - RNG would be the end-all DD. It's actually a testament to RNG's raw power that given such moderate Abyssea gains, it keeps pace with jobs that have exponentially increasing returns working in their favor.

Coming back to reality, RNG just isn't suited to Abyssea. Poor proc ability, can't tank like a MNK, WAR, NIN, or THF, Bounty Shot barely matters with procs, and many other things all work against it.



Oh, SCH is to mage as RNG is to DD. It's fun and can be good, but you will be needed on something else.

Edited, Jun 6th 2011 11:26am by tertoonetwothreefour
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#5 Jun 06 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Zagen wrote:
Skubsteve wrote:
Defense is a bit of a problem to some people. There's jobism against RNG in the general population. No Crit WS and all.

Wut? Arching Arrow, Jishnu's Radiance


Sorry, no good crit WS. Arching is pretty awful and you have to bork your atma to pump it up.

If you're talking Jishnu's, you have to compare it to other Empy weapons and it isn't up at the top of the pile (most people spending the time are going for Wildfire and if you're getting Wildfire your TP phase is going to really suffer).

Terto covered it all pretty well.
#6 Jun 06 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
/blush
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#7 Jun 07 2011 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have a blast playing RNG. And to me, that's what the game is about: having fun.

I understand that RNG's utility in low-man situations is nil. I understand that other DD's (mostly) overtake RNG in terms of pure damage. I understand that unlike most DD's, RNG's hate problem is severe (can't tank very well when they do take hate, plus they make the mob move, negating some damage from other DD's).

For times when it's appropriate, I have my utility jobs. RNG is my fun job.

Some positives about RNG... Dead Aim is a lot of fun and is pretty potent. Stacked with Razed Ruins and Gnarled Horn, your crits are frequent and very strong. My Gandiva isn't 90 yet (I've become a pretty casual player of late), but it's still very strong and the delay makes it feel like E/V Bow all over again. Jishnu's Radiance is awesome. It consumes 3 arrows when you use it, but it feels like you're dropping a nuclear bomb on whatever you're hitting with it. I do pity the melees I'm playing with when I go RNG though, Jishnu's animation is seizure-inducing, lol.

RNG is one of the two jobs I've chosen to focus most of my gear efforts on and I feel like it's been well worth it. I, like the OP, looked to RNG because I wanted to play an uncommon job, and I'm glad I leveled it.
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#8 Jun 07 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Hate is the major problem of RNG inside party nowadays. IT's not the only problem of survive, but the matter to attract monstor to your position that mages are here too.
The other side , Dead aim and Double shot didn't count into ws , it also reduce the power of rng.
#9 Jun 08 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Dead aim and Double shot didn't count into ws , it also reduce the power of rng.


Excuse me, perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but ... how can Dead Aim and Double Shot REDUCE the power of RNG? Sure, they don't take effect on WS's, but both are quite potent while shooting for TP.
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#10 Jun 08 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Well, yes, both are good for TP for rng . I meant that if that two things will enhance the power of the ws for rng(like Double attack proc on WS), it can greatly strengthen the power of rng.
#11 Jun 09 2011 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, yes, both are good for TP for rng . I meant that if that two things will enhance the power of the ws for rng(like Double attack proc on WS), it can greatly strengthen the power of rng.


Ahh, yeah, I definitely agree with you then. Double Shot at minimum should be able to proc on WS's. Dead Aim though, I could see that really sending Jishnu's Radiance to new highs... maybe TOO high.

...then again, when you're paying a fortune for your damage but still lag behind most other DD jobs, maybe a bone *should* be thrown our way.

Edited, Jun 9th 2011 8:09am by Arkanna
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#12 Jun 09 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget RNG also has rampage, and some high damage axes. Seems like an OA2-4 gun or bow WS spamming could do some nice damage.
#13 Jun 09 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, if u want to use axe by rng , i prefer to use war/ drk directly XD

#14 Jun 20 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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I know all the RNG's do a bit "WTF!!" when someone brings up Axe / Dagger type builds, but honestly inside abyssea it might be the better route. Every single negative mentioned above doesn't apply to Rampage / Evis, you can do VV / RR / Apoc or some similar build and spam to your hearts content. If the answer is "then play WAR" then why are we even discussing RNG again? Outside Abyssea Archery is amazing, but inside the atma is just too melee orientated.

Our shell actually has a dedicated "RNG" we bring to events, along with a DRK, DRG and SAM. This is because we tend to spam NM's in sets of 10~15 at a time and we want to be able to proc various things during our run. Having everyone stop and wait for "the right time" to pop a NM is stupid when your doing 10~18 if not more of them. For piercing RNG gets all Archery / Marksmanship and some Dagger, although we have a dedicated THF. This makes RNG invaluable when you need to proc blue.

Seriously guys, Abyssea isn't about damage and epeen so stop worrying about it. Killing a monster isn't hard, its all the procing that takes time, skill and flexibility. RNG's place is with bigger organized groups that need blue proced and proced often. It doesn't fit into the "WHM + MNK + THF" crowd who are usually just dual box's anyway.
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lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#15 Jun 21 2011 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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After u get Gandiva or Harrier+2(I have Harrier+2), u 'll get hate from mob easily after ws. And Rng/nin can get 5 hit 100% quite easily and the new Critical dmg boost is horrible for rng at nomral ranger attack. Therefore i feel that it's not necessary to melee unless u don't want to spend ammo...

In abyssea, most of the event is to get key item (red) or yellow proc. Blue, actually, is not very common. Unless u're camping Turul, Rani for many times.
#16 Jun 21 2011 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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sheepdee wrote:
After u get Gandiva or Harrier+2(I have Harrier+2), u 'll get hate from mob easily after ws. And Rng/nin can get 5 hit 100% quite easily and the new Critical dmg boost is horrible for rng at nomral ranger attack. Therefore i feel that it's not necessary to melee unless u don't want to spend ammo...

In abyssea, most of the event is to get key item (red) or yellow proc. Blue, actually, is not very common. Unless u're camping Turul, Rani for many times.


Very wrong. Blue is awesome on all the big NM's as it enhances their drop rates for actual gear. Things like goading belt, bullwhip belt, zelus tiara, rani drops, and so forth. That +Crit body from the winged raptor in Highlands also comes to mind. As a shell we got all our members full +2 a long time ago, we're got almost everyone full +2 on their 2nd jobs and working on getting everyone an emp weapon. Once you get to this point, farming +2 really becomes a side thing, unless its body +2, those NM's are a PITA.

And the "get an emp" argument is immediately null and void as other jobs get the exact same thing if not better.

Quote:
and the new Critical dmg boost is horrible for rng at nomral ranger attack


Huh? Is this the new if a rng shoots for 30 is it like drg for 20? That statement makes no sense, +crit effects all attacks equally. Ranged attack doesn't get as much from +crit rate because RA's ratio is already near what a crit would cap at anyway, but it doesn't stop the +crit damage from boosting hits. Whats really hurting RNG's is the same thing that hurt them back at 75 and that's haste stacking. Most melee's can get 25% in gear haste plus whatever a mage and / or BRD can toss on them. Inside aybseea where accuracy is nearly meaningless and DA / TA are so plentiful, melee's can then stack attack / DA / TA until their bleeding out their nose's. None of that effects RA, the most Archery RNG can do is load up on r.attack, STR and some crit atma's and hope for the best. The odds are really stacked against all forms of ranged attack inside abyssea, at least the nuke guys got direct +damage and tons of MAB.
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#17 Jun 21 2011 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Good old Saevel.. lol
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90's: SMN BLM BLU DRG RDM COR SAM RNG THF
#18 Jun 21 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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And not a single thing I said was wrong. Blue procs are important and ranged attacks take a damage hit inside abyssea compared to regular melee attacks and nukes.

But please continue the asshattery
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RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#19 Jun 21 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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423 posts
Asshattery?

You're right, nothing you said was wrong, but why say in 300+ words, what you just said in exactly 20?
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~ Arkanna ~ Lakshmi ~
90's: SMN BLM BLU DRG RDM COR SAM RNG THF
#20 Jun 22 2011 at 4:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Because asshats / trolls will pick through anything / everything you say in an attempt to twist / malign it so they can troll harder. This would then entail several posts back and forth. Instead I'll just cut to the end and spell out exactly what I mean in such a way as asshats can not respond without stepping on themselves. Answer the argument before the argument is made. Its most efficient that way, although bad for my post count as I don't +1 myself.
____________________________
RoTZ: Complete DM: O
CoP: Complete AN: O
99 SAM, RDM, BLU, WAR, PLD, DRK

lolgaxe wrote:
Nothing in this game is impossible if you set yourself to the task of actually doing it. Even dumb people can only hold you back for so long.


Lucinus wrote:
when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#21 Jun 25 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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761 posts
What i dont get is why you would sub SAM in a situation where you never even get to use meditate and sekka efficiently...
XP mobs in abys die so fast you only end up with a ton of extra TP from Med that you dont get to use until the next mob because WSing on rng somewhere around 50% will almost always end in a WS kill (hey some ruby is fine but not on 2/3 of the kills) and thats with a non emp. bow with Radiance you will 1 shot sh*t anyways unless you wiff no matter your sub.

For procing or bigger NM groups on Abys /SAM might have a benefit but once you start on the final push after procing you will pull hate too so bye bye Hasso.

Whats the point of sam again ? right 4-3 hit but that wont do you any good either unless you plan on holding back until the NM is around 30% or something to blow all your TP and JA´s at once and possibly still eat dirt while taking a tpmove to the face because you have Hasso up...

Anyways im rambling the point is go @#%^ing /nin and just stand in meele range, its not like you have to stand back @#%^ that ~20dmg per shot you get for being a pain in the *** and standing back, play like a lvl 75 at colobri camp, sure you will miss out a few shots while recasting utsu but who cares not like you absolutely have to WS every 5 sec and be that guy that dies every time he tries to show of...

RNG is suffering now what DRG used to back in the days you have a lot of over zelus players who wnat to proof its not LOLRNG but they just overdo it and die/move mobs all day because they think they need to go all out all the time.

Edited, Jun 25th 2011 4:34am by DosenMilch
#22 Jun 25 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
You raise some pretty good points despite being drunk. I think you're preaching to the choir a little bit here, though your average RNG still equips a DD earring over a Novia in a big NM fight, and it's pretty fair to extrapolate their playstyle from there.

The only place /SAM truly shines over other subs is on worms where melee damage and mob movement isn't a concern. Anywhere else and by definition, RNG is better off being as little of a concern as possible because it's there to proc more than actually DD. To me, that means /SAM, -Enmity, and caution (which admittedly means making less use of /SAM). To the youngboold RNGs you've been around, that should mean /NIN, and a thorough tongue lashing from the run leader beforehand and during when
they inevitably muss it up.



Edited, Jun 25th 2011 12:02pm by tertoonetwothreefour
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#23 Jun 27 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Really since it doesn't matter what job you are inside abyssea, damage is never a problem. In xp parties if you have good atmas you will be fine just with dual axes as most people there are gimps anyway and mobs simply die way to fast. Then with NM's you usually end up spending most the time just going for Proc rather than damage. It's usually one or two "tanks" on the mob while everyone else just builds tp, or casts spells to get the proc. Heck I know when I am tanking on MNK I have to turn around quite a bit so I don't kill the mob before proc.
#24 Jul 09 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
Thelastremainingintime wrote:
Hey might catch some flack for this but i'm wondering if rng is still a competitive DD.

I know back in the day ranger's used to be quite good.. but I swear, I have not seen a single one in party since abyssea came out.

I've heard from someone that since abyssea the jobs DOT isn't as good compared to others, but is this true or are they just bad for triggers? (except for blue for piercing)

I try to specialize in jobs and am interested in jobs I don't frequently see around.

Very interested in leveling either this or sch as one of the last jobs I get to level 90, so was trying to get some opinions from any (if any) who still main ranger. Also looks like jishnu's radiance is awesome--yet i've never seen it ingame, any opinions are appreciated.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 12:28pm by Thelastremainingintime

Late to the thread.

Yes, RNG is still a competitive DD...conditionally. You put in the effort, you pour in the gil; you will get very nice results.

And speaking to the main reason i posted, get Jishnu's Radiance if you are a bow RNG(or Wildfire if you prefer guns). Both Emp WSs are game changers for the job in my opinion. I got JR about a month or so ago now and let me say its just ridiculous. This is one of the few times since i've been playing FFXI that hype i've heard about something is truly justified.

RNG was my first 75 way back when, i'd lvl it back and forth with THF(get some lvls on RNG, farm more cash for ammo on THF, rinse repeat); and i have to say i have not had as much fun on the job since that initial lvling period. Throw in Bounty Shot(which i admit was a laughable JA when i first heard of it-but has been proving quite the gem) and the job just rocks now.

Only thing RNG is missing atm is some form hate management imo. I dont care who or what is tanking for you, dropping huge WSs on a mob every time is gonna pull it to you. Then as RNG is atm, your face gets kicked in Smiley: frown, even /nin.
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#25 Jul 10 2011 at 5:19 AM Rating: Default
If only 50% of the game's bosses were worms without Draw In...
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#26 Jul 10 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Hi everyone, mind I'm chipping a bit?
I just returned last month and got my BLU and DNC to 90 with same AF3 +1/+2 done. I'm thinking to bring my RNG to 90 after my SAM.

Couple things I wanna know:
- Is Marksmanship really dead now?
- Is Harrier +2 worth it? Or it's just better to shoot for Gandiva?
- Please tell me about the x-hit build's gear/info for the current lvl cap/gear choices
- What are the good atma sets RNG use nowadays?
- There's so few info I can get regarding "Enhances" <trait> on AF3 +1/+2. Can you tell me about it?

Thanks,
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