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#327 Dec 12 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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stat +% bonuses have to be AFTER stat+ bonuses.
It works that way with hp. and after a quick check, you can see it w/ attack+ also.

naked bst/dnc 206 attack
phorcys body 224

naked bst +
Guttler 530
guttler + phorcys 564

Guttler &
various attack+ gear (no body) 659
various attack+ gear & phorcys body 700

various attack+ gear (no body) + red curry bun 812
various attack+ gear & phorcys body + red curry bun 853

The easiest thing to think about is the difference between weapons. Your attack will be based on your skill for whichever weapon. If it weren't then attack%+ gear would hardly be worth it. When completely naked it only gives +18 attack whereas it you can gain 41 attack from this piece when other attack+ gear is stacked up in my higher example.

Interestingly, my test seems to break the cap recorded for red curry bun on the wikis. i got 3 more attack out of it.

However, the bottom line is, you add all the attack+ then you add all the attack%+ together before you multiply it. The Phorcys body is still adding 41 attack in my example, whether I have the red curry bun or not.


edit: I was thrown off on the % from the body for a sec there... remember to add the 8 attack from the 16 str on the body before trying to figure the % bonus.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 8:37am by Xilk
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#328 Dec 12 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nice! Thanks for clearing that up. :)
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#329 Dec 12 2012 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm planning on it if you don't.. but I'm doing some other tests on the test server atm...

a while ago, I tried to see if run wild or familiar had an attack bonus to it. However, in light of your recent testing, it seems my targets were too weak.
if you want to feel free. otherwise. I'll include it at the end of my current run. Update time seems a fine time to be on test server imo.
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#330 Dec 12 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Heyyy, good idea. :D I'll help if I can~

What pet/prey are you planning on doing? Something DC? I was thinking of maybe doing some lvl 93 PrestoJulio vs 93/94 Hispid Rarabs... :o

Edit: Version Update: The issue wherein pet movement speed was unintentionally fast has been resolved, and the maximum movement speed of pets has been increased to twenty-five percent of the average speed. :O :O :D

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 12:51pm by Bookmarku
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#331 Dec 12 2012 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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Bookmarku wrote:
Heyyy, good idea. :D I'll help if I can~

What pet/prey are you planning on doing? Something DC? I was thinking of maybe doing some lvl 93 PrestoJulio vs 93/94 Hispid Rarabs... :o

Edit: Version Update: The issue wherein pet movement speed was unintentionally fast has been resolved, and the maximum movement speed of pets has been increased to twenty-five percent of the average speed. :O :O :D

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 12:51pm by Bookmarku



I noticed that note also, but I didn't think it was great... I thought pet movement speed for tigers/coeurls was +50% but didn't think it was unintentially fast.

I don't think that means that raphie and mac will be faster...
but can check.
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#332 Dec 12 2012 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oooh, new BST-only Axe:

Ravana's Axe Level 99
DMG:75 Delay:276 HP+40 Accuracy+10 Attack+10 Pet: Adds "Regen" effect

And:

Skadi's Bazubands +1
DEF:32 STR+8 AGI+8 Attack+12 Ranged Attack+12 Haste+4% Pet: Haste+3% Set: Increases rate of critical hits

Sigyn's Jambeaux
DEF:29 STR+7 DEX+7 VIT+7 AGI+7 Evasion+8 Haste+4% Pet: Evasion+5

Edit: That note about Pet Movement Speed... I took it to mean that all pets will go from regular speed (100%) to an increased speed across the board (125%). Maybe?

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 1:26pm by Bookmarku
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#333 Dec 12 2012 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bookmarku wrote:
Oooh, new BST-only Axe:

Ravana's Axe Level 99
DMG:75 Delay:276 HP+40 Accuracy+10 Attack+10 Pet: Adds "Regen" effect

And:

Skadi's Bazubands +1
DEF:32 STR+8 AGI+8 Attack+12 Ranged Attack+12 Haste+4% Pet: Haste+3% Set: Increases rate of critical hits

Sigyn's Jambeaux
DEF:29 STR+7 DEX+7 VIT+7 AGI+7 Evasion+8 Haste+4% Pet: Evasion+5

Edit: That note about Pet Movement Speed... I took it to mean that all pets will go from regular speed (100%) to an increased speed across the board (125%). Maybe?

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 1:26pm by Bookmarku


Yeah, Iv'e been looking at all the gear also.

I'm very interested in how big the regen is for pets. its has to be significant to be worthwhile. we can already put big regen on our pets w/ reward, beast healer, etc.
if its dinky, it won't mean anything.

Also, the pet haste hands. I think I'll be selling my Brego gloves soon.

I'm not thrilled about the evasion feet.. but who knows. I've and eva earring and axe already, but don't often find need for both. However, adding lots of EVA+ for dipper in higher level tanking situations, ala neo salvage might be just right.

as far as movement speed goes.. we'll see. I don't think they increased movement for pets, but I could be wrong. It would be nice if they could all, alwasy keep up w/ you.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 1:59pm by Xilk
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#334 Dec 12 2012 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still out-running CrudeRaphie. But Merle is seemingly fast... Hard to tell.

Some of the Skadi/Sygin gear seems decent. Toci's/Ocelomeh+1 still seem king for non-Killer, though you can replace Phorcys Salade with Skadi's Visor +1 for a lil' improvement in your Killer Effects setup.

Skadi+1 head/Ferine+2 body/Skadi+1 hands/Phorcys legs/Ferine+2 feet seems quite nice. Rioter's Collar is basically equivalent (can be slightly better or worse depending on gear/buffs) to Rancor Collar if you want to avoid the DT+10% and can't get Portus Collar.

Edited, Dec 12th 2012 3:25pm by Bookmarku
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#335 Dec 14 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was reading bg forums (bestplace after/during update) and a small discussion came up about pet haste. Some players wondering if pet haste caps at 25% from gear.

I HIGHLY doubted pets would have the 25% cap. Pets didn't have the 50% pdt cap. However I started checking the numbers. I chose discreet louise, because Louise has the highest delay of all our pets... 280.

I think I"ve proven that pets do not have a 25% haste cap. Please double check my calculations.

280 delay w/ 25% haste (supposed cap) will be a delay of 210, and take exactly 3.5 seconds/attack round.
This would indicate, that it should always be at least 7 seconds for 2 attack rounds.

260 delal with 40% haste would be 168 delay. each attack would be every 2.8 seconds.

As long as the atma information is correct, and I beleive it is, I could attain 40% haste by using:
Familiar w/ monster trousers +2 10%
Spurrer Beret 5%
Moepapa Stone 5%
Armada Sollerets (aug) 4%

Amta of the Omnipotent 10%
Atma of the Ascending one 5%
Atma of the Winged Enigma 1%

Granted, I only have the timestamps from windower to check this, but Every Attack, except for double attacks, were 3 seconds apart.
There was never a 4 second delay.

It is possible that latency in signal might cause some discrepancy, but it continued for a long time. Enough to kill several tigers.

I beleive this shows that pets do not cap haste at 25% and that I achieved 40% haste on my pet.


edit: I decided to go back and nail down a few pieces. I confirmed that the atma had the correct haste values by /whm and casting reraise and checking the recast.

Also I did some melee testing w/ louise @ 25% haste to make sure my theory was sound. It is correct. I saw several delays of 3 seconds and 4 seconds in the attacks when @ only 25% haste.

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 9:24pm by Xilk
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#336 Dec 14 2012 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looks good, sir.

A neat piece of info - looking back through the thread, it seems like the topic of a Pet: Haste cap has been on the back burner for about 11 months, haha. Thanks for laying it to rest. :)
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#337 Dec 14 2012 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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I've been reviewing my parse data for hobs att so far. I keep doing hobs cuz I suspect he has highest attack..

 
 
Hobs	Def	        Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
81 G.Colibri	322	168	323	420	24	470	520 
82 Colibri	327	410	309	412	65	460	520 
82 att+ (37?)	327	350	312	412	74	461	519 
							 
83 vulture	355	254	287	401	35	461	515 
att + 62	355	272	301	403	28	455	515 
84 vulture		325	289	387	39	444	511 
att + 62		178	296	394	21	460	508 
 


Please tell me if you see anything... I'm kinda kicking myself.. cuz this kinda tells me g. colibri might be the right prey for the attack test.. I don't know the exact attack value I added though... so would need to redo if they are... or should I be going after the crit hits? try to get melee to match crit?

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 10:42pm by Xilk

Edited, Dec 14th 2012 10:48pm by Xilk
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#338 Dec 20 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Yeah, if we're estimating that AF3+2 head is +100 attack then Aymur level 99 would be about +90 attack.

The key to what I wrote is finding the defense value that perfectly caps your monster's Ratio, then changing your monster's attack and finding the new defense value that perfectly caps your monster's Ratio. Now that I think about it, PvP might be the easiest place to do this if pet mechanics aren't nerfed there.

Edited, Dec 9th 2012 10:54am by Byrthnoth



How would PVP make this easier? You could control the player Def better and adjust it, but collecting a large enough sample size would be very difficult in pvp I believe. You would need at least 3x ppl. A bst, a tank (probably pld...) and a whm to help keep pld alive. Pets do ALOT Of damage for players. In pvp its not hard to 2~3 shot a player w/ a bst pet.

Also, How large of a sample size do we need? I've been hunting around trying to find the right mobs... and its very tedious. I have some abberations in the numbers though.. I'm around 200~300 samples /mob level. I"ve also been trying to do it w/out using ferine cabasset or aymur, though I've kept that option open by going after lizard types w/ hobs. I've done seaboard vultures, peiste, and sand lizards. The first 2 were way off. Its easy to see where Pdif caps on crit hits, but much harder to get it there for non-crit hits.

Do I need the low hit to cap, or the high? I have the high end capping on sand lizards. Below are my parse summaries.
(not sure the exact levels... wiki says 61~66, but thats off by 1. There are only 5 different levels, not 6).

 
Sand Lizard 	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
(20 xp)      	246	222	466	495	40	509	534 
(22 xp)      	251	244	449	495	36	508	534 
(24 xp)      	256	255	451	495	40	509	534 
(26 xp)      	261	188	445	491	30	505	530 
(28 xp)      	266	260	432	491	41	505	529 
							 
							 
							 
att +40							 
Sand Lizard 	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
(20 xp)      	246	219	459	495	40	509	534 
(22 xp)      	251	188	465	495	44	509	534 
(24 xp)      	256	269	454	495	46	510	534 
(26 xp)      	261	298	441	491	43	505	530 
(28 xp)      	266	251	435	491	37	505	530 
 


I would need to get 471 damage as the low melee hit to cap pdif on the 20~24 xp lizards. This is easy to find by using adjusting between crit values and non-crit values using a factor of 1.08 for the crit damage bonus. However, you can see that the high end of the melee hits is already capped in both samples.


... and, as you can see, I have some inconsistancies. The low hits for the attack +40 sample should not go lower than the naked sample.

adding ~40~60 attack doesn't make much difference. I did a short parse on the peiste after my first 2, adding both aymur and cabbasset.. and the jump in damage was very noticeable. I estimate that I added ~225 attack that way.

If I go much lower for mobs, then I won't get anymore xp, and it will be more tedious to separate the mob levels. I think level 56 is as low as you can go at level 99, correct? I hope there is a difference in xp from a 56 to 57 mob...

Edited, Dec 20th 2012 1:09pm by Xilk

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 1:04am by Xilk
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#339 Dec 20 2012 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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There are two ways that you can calculate what the capped Ratio min should be:
1) Divide the minimum critical hit damage by 1.08 (471 predicted for the first three levels)
2) Divide the maximum melee hit damage by 1.05 (472 predicted for the first three levels)
I'm not too worried about that 1 point difference and am willing to chalk it up to the randomizer. It's probably 118 base damage for the upper three cases and 114 for the lower case.

We see 449 minimum damage, which indicates uncapped pDIF, but adding 40 attack does essentially nothing to it. It looks like it might just be the sample size. It's hard to get the low end of the range, but that's what you need to see in order to prove you're capped Ratio.

Respawn might be an issue, but you could try these Lizards in Quicksand Caves if you wanted (I assume this was done in Terrigan?) They are 56-59 there, so you'd probably be closer to capped Ratio from the start.
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#340 Dec 20 2012 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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IF anyone finds these useful, I'm posting my other parse summaries.

 
seaboard vulture 
              	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
Lvl 83        	355	254	287	401	35	461	515 
att + 62	355	272	301	403	28	455	515 
Lvl 84        	361	325	289	387	39	444	511 
att + 62	361	178	296	394	21	460	508 


 
Peiste 73~76	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
73 (44xp)	310	142	368	466	22	488	511 
74 (47 xp)	315	264	365	466	40	488	511 
75 (50 xp)	320	263	354	455	38	483	507 
76 (52 xp)	325	200	350	449	33	483	507 
							 
ATT +62							 
Peiste 73~76	Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
73 (44xp)	310	247	371	474	26	489	511 
74 (47 xp)	315	255	360	465	38	489	511 
75 (50 xp)	320	196	355	455	32	483	507 
76 (52 xp)	325	252	349	445	40	483	507 


Edited, Dec 20th 2012 1:29pm by Xilk
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#341 Dec 21 2012 at 12:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I figured out what pooched my numbers for the terrigan parse. I had some links in there, so some of the samples would be incorrect.

I'll have to redo a naked parse in kuftal to get more useful numbers.
However, I have some samples which are pretty good now.

I Parsed ~1200 hits on 4x levels of Sand Lizards in Quicksand Caves. Levels 56~59. Hobs was capped on all of them.

 
naked 
Sand lizard QC 
		Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high						 
Lvl 56 (14 xp)	214	348	476	499	51	514	538 
Lvl 57 (15 xp)	219	324	476	499	58	514	538 
Lvl 58 (16 xp)	224	291	476	499	46	514	538 
Lvl 59 (17 xp)	229	259	472	495	48	510	534 
 


This got me pretty excited because I know it has to be very close. Hobs does not cap on a level 62 lizards. I am confident of that from my terrigan parse.

I went back to kuftal and started an attack +62 parse on lizards. I only have about 2/3 the total parse size I want, but the results so far look promising. Hobs appears to be capped for the level 61 Lizard, but none of those above this. There are no level 60 lizards... so I cannot see if Hobs will cap on a level 60 lizard w/out attack+ or not. However, this does narrow down the numbers a bit, and we can get an initial range which should be fairly close.

 
Att +62							 
Sand Lizard  Kuftal 
		Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
Lvl 61 (19 xp)	240	173	472	495	31	510	534 
Lvl 62 (20 xp)	245	224	464	495	42	509	534 
Lvl 63 (22 xp)	251	189	459	495	39	509	534 
Lvl 64 (24 xp)	256	213	450	495	46	509	533 
 


I hope to continue this parse tomorrow and finish a naked one in kuftal as well.

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#342 Dec 21 2012 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Lizard defenses from /check:
Level 59 Lizard: 230 Defense
Level 61 Lizard: 240 Defense
Level 62 Lizard: 246 Defense
Level 63 Lizard: 251 Defense
Level 64 Lizard: 256 defense
Level 65 Lizard: 261 Defense
Level 66 Lizard: 266 Defense

I verified that the defense is the same between Terrigan and Kuftal.

The next steps would be:
1) Determine how much +Pet Attack you need to cap on level 61 Lizards.
2) Determine how much Attack you need to add to start capping on level 62 Lizards (if you can).

You know that +64 Pet Attack caps you on 61 and not on 62, and looking at the splits I'd say that you're fairly uncapped on 62 still. I'd take off ~5 pet attack and see if your minimum changes. Also, you should be able to use the above defenses to target specific levels using /check if you're careful about it (maybe use a weapon with sub job skill).

Player ratio caps at 2 for 1H weapons and 2.25 for 2H weapons. Kegsay assumed a similar cap for Avatars in half of his analysis, but looking back at his data that's probably not correct. I'd personally guess that monster Ratio caps around 3~4, so you'd be looking at +18~24 attack to reach between tiers.

So Gorefang is capped vs. a 230 Defense monster at +0 Pet Attack and a 240 Defense monster with +62 Pet Attack, but not against a 246 Defense monster with +62 Pet Attack. Assuming all of those statements are true, this indicates that Pet/Monster Ratio cap is greater than 3.875. Assuming that we are almost at the Ratio cap for 61 and 59 Lizards, it would be approximately 6.

When Monsters fight Players, they get +0.05 Ratio per level. So when Ig-Alima (Level 120) attacks you (Level 99), he gets +1.05 Ratio. It is not known whether this also applies to monsters that are attacking other monsters, so that would be another factor that we might have to control for in the future. For instance, Hobs might be getting (40*0.05 =) +2 Ratio just because of level difference against the 59 Lizards. He would only get +1.9 Ratio against the level 61 monsters, which would make the attack needed to move between the two levels more dramatically different.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 9:32am by Byrthnoth

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 9:46am by Byrthnoth
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#343 Dec 21 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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I fleshed out the att+62 parse in kuftal, and the min values didn't change.

Then I did a parse with no attack+ and I ran into a disappointment.

It appears that Hobs caps on level 61 lizards even without any attack+. That much is fine, but it appears as if my pet attack+ is not doing anything at all.

 
Sand Lizard  Kuftal 
		Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
Lvl 61 (19 xp)	240	264	472	495	33	509	534 
Lvl 62 (20 xp)	246	290	469	495	52	509	534 
Lvl 63 (22 xp)	251	342	458	495	65	509	534 
Lvl 64 (24 xp)	256	270	451	495	35	509	534 
 


The example of Monster's ratio bonus seems to fit the tremendous difference level makes in damage which our pets can deal.

These parses really make me feel a bit tongue in cheek about SE 'Buffing' the beast roll on corsair. The old max was ~+64 pet attack and the new is over 100. but it seems unless you have around +100, it won't do anything. SE seems to get credit for selling you your own shirt often.

Perhaps you only see much difference from pet attack when you are NOT close to capped ratio. When you are fighting something more your level or higher.

I might do 1 more parse in kuftal, w/ aymur,and cabbaset and all the attack I can stack to see if it makes any difference, but I'm feeling kinda stumped on how to proceed. ...
Actually, then we would need to proceed by trying pvp. level 99 vs level 99 but we can control the def on the target.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 3:45pm by Xilk

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 3:47pm by Xilk
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#344 Dec 21 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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I would try the test you suggested first to verify that attack isn't actually having any effect. For additional potency, you could pull the monsters with Dia II.

However, it's possible that monster Ratio is capped and then their level correction term is stacked on top and can surpass the cap. So something like:
Attack/Defense = Ratio
(Attacker's Level - Defender's Level)*0.05 = Level Correction
Ratio + Level Correction = Effective Ratio

Ratio could be capped at, say, 2, and then Level Correction could be the only thing you're actually varying in these tests. This would also explain why BST pets wreck monsters that are a lower level than them so efficiently. It would also explain why, unless I'm mistaken, Kegsay never convincingly showed a difference between Attack+ cases and cases without +Attack because he used a very similar method to us. Also similarly, he was targeting monsters ~40 levels below his Avatar (Level 35 Bees at 75).



An interesting test would be to use a Level 99 character/MNK in Ballista and let a pet melee them with Counterstance up. That would show you if level correction is required to reach 4.0 pDIF.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 4:20pm by Byrthnoth
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#345 Dec 21 2012 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't pull w/ dia2.

It appears that w/ all the attack+ I could muster, there is an ever so slight increase... as in maybe 1 level up....

 
Kuftal max att (+40 + head + aymur)							 
		Def	Hits	M.low	M.high	C.Hits	C.low	C.high 
Lvl 61 (19 xp)	240	261	472	495	55	509	534 
Lvl 62 (20 xp)	246	241	466	495	43	509	534 
Lvl 63 (22 xp)	251	351	460	495	69	509	534 
Lvl 64 (24 xp)	256	269	454	495	48	509	534 
 



also, as far as the mnk goes, I've got a big hp+ set built. could mnk/war w/ counterstance and still have almost 4k hp. hmm actually I think I had to keep mantra up to be that high. still, if pet is hitting for 500 damage a shot, then you need alot of hp.
I did do ballista at level 80ish w/ pet ls before... pets kill you in only a few hits. I'm sure 350 was pretty normal at the time.. I don't recall exactly, but they hit hard.

Edited, Dec 21st 2012 6:56pm by Xilk
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#346 Dec 21 2012 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Considering you got a lower Melee Low for 62 Lizards, I'm not very convinced that there was any change.
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#347 Dec 21 2012 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Considering you got a lower Melee Low for 62 Lizards, I'm not very convinced that there was any change.



oh dang... it was lower...

well this tends to support the idea that attack isn't doing anything.
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#348 Dec 24 2012 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, I was able to get a few ls mates to help check the mnk aspect.
I had full hp+ gear on, and NO damage mitigation gear (black belt, brawny adargas, etc...)

w/ counterstance up full time, I had 70 defense.

also 119 Vit

These are gorefang's hits against my 99 mnk/war
 
Hit/Miss    M.low/Hi    M.avg    #crit    C.low/Hi    C.avg      C.rate 
121/24      102/238     198.76     16     257/328     288.63   13.22 % 


as you can see, its a small sample size.. unfortunately, I forgot that brenner has 'official' matches which boot you out... so we were locked out from getting a larger sample.

However, it is clear he is not getting near the 4.0 ratio we see with pets vs lower level mobs.

Edited, Dec 24th 2012 10:15pm by Xilk
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#349 Dec 25 2012 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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Was he meleeing from the front? 102~238 with a 198 average makes me think that 102 is a Guard proc. It would be interesting to see the raw spread from the Details tag so we could sort that out.

Also, it's true that this is nowhere near the 4.0 we see against low level mobs, *but* it's also entirely possible that pet damage mechanics are nerfed specifically in Ballista.

New test idea:
BRD/MNK, Counterstance + Virelai a Greater Colibri. Get charmed and set your pet to attack the bard. See if it hits for a ton of damage or like ~200 similar to above.

Edited, Dec 25th 2012 1:29am by Byrthnoth
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#350 Dec 25 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, sorrry, I'm pretty sure thats a guard proc also. I was facing him at the beginning, but wasn't getting many hits and then later decided to turn around. Below are the offense details for gorefanghobs. the next lowest hit is 154.

I can probably do that charmed counterstance test. on a non-mnk job /mnk so we don't get guard procs. However, I think getting an nm which reliably charms might be easier. I don't have brd or know any brd who have /mnk but I can /mnk on blu w/ 1 damage clubs and get charmed by raskovnik in aby konschtat. just need to make sure there are no significant dd atma on. and plenty of regen.


GorefangHobs
Melee
102: 1
154: 1
156: 1
160: 2
161: 1
163: 1
164: 1
165: 2
166: 1
167: 1
171: 2
173: 1
174: 2
176: 2
177: 1
178: 1
179: 1
180: 3
181: 1
182: 1
183: 4
184: 3
187: 3
188: 1
189: 1
190: 2
195: 2
196: 1
197: 1
198: 3
199: 1
200: 1
^ 201: 3
203: 2
205: 1
206: 2
+ 207: 5
208: 4
209: 3
210: 2
211: 1
212: 1
214: 2
215: 2
217: 3
218: 2
220: 1
221: 3
223: 3
227: 1
228: 1
229: 2
230: 2
234: 2
235: 1
236: 3
237: 1
238: 2

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#351 Dec 26 2012 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that would work too!
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