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#377 Feb 03 2013 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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No, I mean that when a Jug pet hits Level 0 monsters in East Ronfarue, they hit for 4~4.2 pDIF. That's 5% variation (4.2/4). If you spam Foot Kick or some TP move, do you still see 5% variation or do you see more than that?
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#378 Feb 03 2013 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dunno if it's what you're looking for, but like this?
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#379 Feb 03 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Okay 621/592 = 1.0489...

So there's no Ratio cap on Ready moves. Head ****'s base damage, for instance, is 148. Merle's base damage listed on the first page is 64 (this probably includes fSTR), which would be 84 base damage low. This means the max fTP for Head **** is 2.3125 (148/64).

I think I'm going to try to modify Avatar BP damage in Abyssea using Atma of the Hateful Stream/Echoes with low level SMN BPs because they have skillchain properties.
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#380 Feb 03 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Okay 621/592 = 1.0489...

So there's no Ratio cap on Ready moves. Head ****'s base damage, for instance, is 148. Merle's base damage listed on the first page is 64 (this probably includes fSTR), which would be 84 base damage low. This means the max fTP for Head **** is 2.3125 (148/64).

I think I'm going to try to modify Avatar BP damage in Abyssea using Atma of the Hateful Stream/Echoes with low level SMN BPs because they have skillchain properties.


The first page is not level 99 pets. Level 99 numbers are somewhere around page 6 iirc....
I suppose I should update the first page. I didn't have the thread organized when I started it.

anyway, Merle's base damage vs level 0 mobs is 73
and yes, that includes fSTR.

edit: Updated table on first page for level 99 pet stats.

Edited, Feb 3rd 2013 5:43pm by Xilk
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#381 Feb 03 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
TEST: More data sets on any/all of the same mobs, but level capped at level 90 instead of 99, while keeping capped attack. Take a rdm along for Dia III or something, if you need to.

TEST extra: More data on the peistes just to help fill out the edges.


All my tests so far have been w/ Gorefang Hobs whose min level is 93.
I can certainly add more peiste to the level 99 samples I have to fill it out. However, for the other test, woudl level 93 be alright? or do we need samples of an entirely different pet? (frankly I kinda wish I'd gone w/ gooey or fargann vs birds, cuz the vultures only have 2 levels and there is no aggro to avoid). Also, Its best to collect samples when monster correlation is in your favor to take advantage of the attack+ from ferine cabasset +2. That + aymur are by far the largest attack+ sources.
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#382 Feb 04 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, level 93 Hobs would work ok.
#383 Feb 04 2013 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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I filled up the Peiste samples vs level 99 Hobs. This includes previous ones, but its ~500 hits/level now.
level 73 Peiste:
Melee
368: 1
370: 1
372: 1
373: 2
374: 1
375: 5
376: 2
377: 3
378: 5
379: 4
380: 3
381: 3
382: 6
383: 3
384: 4
385: 1
386: 3
387: 3
388: 2
390: 1
391: 4
392: 6
393: 5
394: 6
395: 6
396: 8
397: 6
398: 6
399: 3
400: 8
401: 8
402: 6
403: 4
404: 5
406: 8
407: 5
408: 4
409: 3
411: 8
412: 9
413: 2
414: 2
415: 3
416: 2
417: 7
419: 7
420: 7
421: 2
422: 7
^ 423: 7
424: 6
425: 7
+ 426: 11
427: 6
428: 8
429: 9
430: 9
431: 7
432: 3
433: 5
434: 7
435: 3
436: 5
437: 5
438: 4
439: 3
440: 3
441: 7
442: 8
443: 3
444: 7
445: 4
446: 5
447: 7
448: 7
449: 5
450: 6
451: 5
452: 4
453: 4
454: 4
455: 3
456: 1
457: 4
458: 3
459: 1
460: 4
461: 3
462: 1
463: 2
464: 1
465: 2
466: 3
467: 1
470: 1
Melee Crits
488: 4
489: 3
492: 5
493: 1
494: 3
495: 1
496: 3
497: 1
+ 498: 6
500: 1
^ 501: 1
502: 4
503: 5
504: 1
505: 4
507: 1
508: 4
509: 1
510: 2
511: 5

Level 74 Peiste
Melee
365: 2
366: 5
367: 3
369: 1
370: 4
371: 6
372: 7
373: 5
374: 6
375: 6
376: 3
377: 5
378: 11
379: 2
380: 11
381: 9
382: 5
383: 3
384: 5
385: 3
386: 9
387: 6
388: 7
389: 7
390: 3
391: 5
392: 6
393: 8
394: 6
395: 3
396: 3
397: 4
398: 5
399: 7
400: 8
401: 5
402: 3
403: 6
404: 7
405: 7
406: 7
407: 6
408: 1
409: 2
410: 3
411: 2
^ 412: 5
413: 8
+ 414: 13
415: 4
416: 1
417: 3
418: 5
419: 4
420: 2
421: 7
422: 9
423: 2
424: 6
425: 2
426: 9
427: 3
428: 6
429: 2
430: 6
431: 7
432: 7
433: 9
434: 8
435: 8
436: 4
437: 1
438: 5
439: 6
440: 4
441: 3
442: 4
443: 2
444: 10
445: 6
446: 5
447: 9
448: 3
449: 4
450: 4
451: 4
452: 2
453: 3
454: 3
455: 4
456: 4
457: 3
458: 3
459: 2
461: 2
462: 2
463: 2
466: 1
Melee Crits
488: 3
489: 1
490: 4
491: 5
492: 5
493: 4
494: 2
495: 4
496: 4
497: 4
498: 3
^ 500: 6
+ 501: 8
502: 4
503: 5
504: 3
505: 2
506: 5
507: 2
508: 4
509: 3
510: 2
511: 3

Level 75
Melee
354: 3
357: 3
358: 1
359: 3
360: 2
361: 3
362: 3
363: 3
364: 6
365: 3
366: 5
367: 5
368: 3
369: 4
370: 2
371: 7
372: 7
373: 9
374: 6
375: 9
376: 2
377: 3
378: 9
379: 5
380: 5
381: 5
382: 6
383: 5
384: 2
385: 7
386: 5
387: 10
388: 7
389: 7
390: 3
391: 3
392: 6
393: 9
394: 5
395: 6
396: 8
397: 8
398: 5
399: 5
+ 400: 11
401: 9
402: 8
403: 6
404: 4
405: 1
^ 406: 6
407: 7
408: 3
+ 409: 11
410: 7
411: 6
412: 4
413: 7
414: 8
415: 4
416: 5
417: 5
418: 8
419: 7
420: 7
421: 6
422: 3
423: 8
424: 4
425: 8
426: 3
427: 7
428: 9
429: 5
430: 8
431: 3
432: 8
433: 5
434: 6
435: 6
436: 5
437: 7
438: 6
439: 8
440: 7
441: 6
442: 4
443: 5
444: 5
445: 7
446: 3
447: 4
448: 3
449: 2
450: 2
451: 4
452: 2
453: 1
455: 1
456: 1
458: 1
Melee Crits
483: 5
484: 7
+ 485: 9
486: 3
487: 5
488: 1
490: 2
491: 4
492: 6
493: 8
494: 2
495: 2
^ 496: 4
497: 4
498: 4
499: 3
500: 7
501: 8
502: 4
503: 6
505: 4
506: 6
507: 5

Level 76
Melee
346: 1
347: 2
350: 1
351: 1
352: 3
353: 3
354: 2
355: 1
356: 4
357: 1
358: 5
359: 8
360: 9
361: 5
362: 5
363: 7
364: 7
365: 6
366: 2
367: 3
368: 7
369: 6
370: 5
371: 7
372: 3
373: 6
374: 4
375: 2
376: 2
377: 4
378: 4
379: 2
380: 5
381: 7
382: 6
383: 4
+ 384: 12
385: 6
386: 4
387: 3
388: 9
389: 4
390: 10
391: 4
392: 5
393: 6
394: 2
395: 5
396: 5
397: 2
^ 398: 5
399: 5
+ 400: 12
401: 6
402: 5
403: 3
404: 5
405: 7
406: 6
407: 9
408: 7
409: 3
410: 2
411: 6
412: 1
413: 2
414: 4
415: 7
416: 4
417: 2
418: 4
419: 6
420: 8
421: 7
422: 5
423: 4
424: 4
425: 7
426: 3
427: 6
428: 10
429: 2
430: 3
431: 4
432: 4
433: 4
434: 7
435: 3
436: 5
437: 4
438: 1
439: 1
440: 4
441: 4
442: 2
443: 2
444: 5
445: 3
446: 1
447: 2
449: 2
Melee Crits
483: 4
484: 4
485: 3
486: 3
+ 487: 9
488: 4
490: 4
491: 2
492: 4
493: 4
^ 494: 4
495: 2
496: 5
497: 5
498: 2
499: 4
500: 4
501: 4
502: 8
503: 4
505: 3
506: 1
507: 2


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#384 Feb 04 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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I started collecting ready move min/max damage vs level 0 mobs to try to figure base damage and tp modifier for them.
I haven't been super precise on the TP Modifiers. I'm rounding to the tenth. Here is what I have so far.

 
Pet		Ready		Chrg	Damage type	target	base	MAX tp Mod (300% TP)	 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	387	3.0 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	261	2.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	130	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	130	1.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	387	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	259	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	481	3.7 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	148	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single		 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	183	2.5 

I"m not exactly sure what to make out of leaf dagger... There was almost no variation in damage:

Leaf Dagger
68: 4
69: 2
+^ 273: 11
279: 9

Also, I'm going to submit a bug ticket to SE, about the 'resisted' physical ready moves.. jsut doesn't seem right.

Edited, Feb 4th 2013 9:59pm by Xilk

Edited, Feb 5th 2013 12:27am by Xilk
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#385 Feb 04 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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To be fair, that isn't the TP mod. That's the maximum TP mod. Monsters TP moves probably follow the same WS formula as players with stat modifiers, fSTR, and fTP.
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#386 Feb 04 2013 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sufficient data that none of the end points can be considered outliers.


Lvl 73
Crits: 488 to 511
-8% CAB: 452 to 474 [452 * 1.05 = 474.6; 452 * 1.08 = 488.16; 474 * 1.08 = 511.92]
Base damage: 452/4 = 113

Min damage: 368
Min pDif: 368 / 113 = 3.257 [3.265 @ 368.99]
Max damage: 470
-5% random: 448
Max pDif: 3.965 [3.973 @ 448.99]

pDif spread (range): 0.700 - 0.716


Lvl 74
Crits: 488 to 511
-8% CAB: 452 to 474 [452 * 1.05 = 474.6; 452 * 1.08 = 488.16; 474 * 1.08 = 511.92]
Base damage: 452/4 = 113

Min damage: 365
Min pDif: 365 / 113 = 3.230 [3.238 @ 365.99]
Max damage: 466
-5% random: 444-445
Max pDif: 3.929-3.938-3.946

pDif spread (range): 0.691 - 0.708-0.712


Lvl 75
Crits: 483 to 507
-8% CAB: 448 to 470 [448 * 1.05 = 470.4; 448 * 1.08 = 483.84; 470 * 1.08 = 507.6]
Base damage: 448/4 = 112

Min damage: 354
Min pDif: 354 / 112 = 3.161 [3.169 @ 354.99]
Max damage: 458
-5% random: 437
Max pDif: 3.902 - 3.910

pDif spread (range): 0.733 - 0.749


Lvl 76
Crits: 483 to 507
-8% CAB: 448 to 470 [448 * 1.05 = 470.4; 448 * 1.08 = 483.84; 470 * 1.08 = 507.6]
Base damage: 448/4 = 112

Min damage: 346
Min pDif: 346 / 112 = 3.089 [3.098 @ 346.99]
Max damage: 449
-5% random: 428
Max pDif: 3.821 - 3.830

pDif spread (range): 0.723 - 0.741



The differences in the pDif spread appear to be real. It also appears that the changeover occurs at slightly above 3.5 cRatio.

Assuming +/- 0.375 for the lvl 76 and 75 mobs, cRatios are roughly 3.464 and 3.536. Both 73 and 74 appears to have approximately +/- 0.36 as the offset, and cRatios of 3.58-3.59 for lvl 74, and 3.61 to 3.62 for lvl 73.

Not sure if that's due to cRatio (~3.55?), or due to level difference (lvl 74 mobs are 25 levels below Hobs). The level difference seems more likely.

From estimated cRatios, and assuming 0.06 level correction, we could put them at

Predicted:
73: 3.56
74: 3.50
75: 3.44
76: 3.38

That's notably lower than the approximations made from the pDif range, by about 0.08. Best fit I can find is something like 0.064 correction per level, but that seems very... arbitrary. Plus it doesn't fit all the ranges.

Other speculations I had didn't pan out either.


Edited, Feb 4th 2013 11:19pm by Kinematics
#387 Feb 04 2013 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
To be fair, that isn't the TP mod. That's the maximum TP mod. Monsters TP moves probably follow the same WS formula as players with stat modifiers, fSTR, and fTP.


Yeah, I know, but organizing tables in forums w/ long titles and short data terms is really annoying. Alignment gets all messed up.
I feel kinda ripped-off that Broncha's max tp mod is so low for dd ready moves. Then again, maybe they have a nice attack bonus... still when going vs low level mobs, they can't even do as much as a crit hit...
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#388 Feb 05 2013 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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I have almost all the Physical Ready moves here now. I ran out of Toloi on test server, so havne't finished that yet. Also updated the front page again to add Anna, Julio, Sieghard, and Nazuna level 99 stats.
 
Familiar	Ready		Charges	Type		Target	Base Damage	300% TP MOD 
Turbid Toloi	Recoil Dive	1	Physical	Conal		 
Lucky Lulush	Foot Kick	1	Slashing	Single	386	3.0 
Lucky Lulush	Whirl Claws	1	Piercing	Radial	256	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	Spiral Spin	1	Slashing	Conal	248	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	Sudden Lunge	1	Blunt		Single	186	1.5 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	148	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single	68	0.9 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	148	2.0 
Nursery Nazuna	Lamb Chop	1	Blunt		Single	394	3.0 
Nursery Nazuna	Sheep charge	1	Blunt		Single	394	3.0 
DapperMac	Wing Slap	1	Blunt		Single	45	0.6 
DapperMac	Beak Lunge	2	Blunt		Single	150	2.0 
Discreet Louise	Frogkick	1	Blunt		Single	261	2.0 
Fatso Fargann	Suction		1	Blunt		Single	390	3.0 
Audacious Anna	Tail blow	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Audacious Anna	Blockhead	1	Blunt		Single	258	2.0 
Audacious Anna	Brain Crush	1	Blunt		Single	390	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	Backheel	1	Blunt		Single	375	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	Choke Breath	1	Slashing	Conal	126	1.0 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	387	3.0 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	258	2.0 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	261	2.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	130	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	130	1.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	387	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	259	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	481	3.7 
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#389 Feb 06 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Did any of those crit? You could tell by the maximum value being >5% more than the minimum value for the WAR mobs.

Also, which ones are "Damage varies with TP?" They should do less at 100TP than 300TP even if you can't see the description, yeah? It would be interesting to know if monsters have TP moves with modifiers other than that (I suspect they do).

If you want to work out the mods for these TP moves then here is how you could do it:
1) Take your jugpet to Abyssea on the test server.
2) Find a Scars NM that's always up (like the fat bat in Misa?)
3) Spam TP moves on him (hopefully you see a 1.0 plateau).
4) Don't kill him.
5) Return to the entrance
6) Put on a wide-range stat boosting Atma like Atma of the Savior
7) Return and spam more TP moves.
8) See if your base damage increased more than you'd predict from fSTR.
9) Replace with a more specific Atma (like Atma of the Strangling Wind, Atma of the Kirin, etc.)
10) Repeat.
11) Try to hone in on one.

Alternatively, you could just assume everything is STR modified and try to specifically test for that first.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 9:54am by Byrthnoth
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#390 Feb 06 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Did any of those crit? You could tell by the maximum value being >5% more than the minimum value for the WAR mobs.

Also, which ones are "Damage varies with TP?" They should do less at 100TP than 300TP even if you can't see the description, yeah? It would be interesting to know if monsters have TP moves with modifiers other than that (I suspect they do).

If you want to work out the mods for these TP moves then here is how you could do it:
1) Take your jugpet to Abyssea on the test server.
2) Find a Scars NM that's always up (like the fat bat in Misa?)
3) Spam TP moves on him (hopefully you see a 1.0 plateau).
4) Don't kill him.
5) Return to the entrance
6) Put on a wide-range stat boosting Atma like Atma of the Savior
7) Return and spam more TP moves.
8) See if your base damage increased more than you'd predict from fSTR.
9) Replace with a more specific Atma (like Atma of the Strangling Wind, Atma of the Kirin, etc.)
10) Repeat.
11) Try to hone in on one.

Alternatively, you could just assume everything is STR modified and try to specifically test for that first.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 9:54am by Byrthnoth


Foot Kick Crits ofcourse. I accounted for that when I made my calculations. I reduced the upper level by the 8% crit bonus before confirming the randomizer 5% difference. Whirl Claws and Wild oats threw me off a bit at first, because I didn't realize that both bumblebeese and tiny mandragora are weak to piercing. I did not find any other ready moves which crit, unfortunately. Plenty of BST have wanted that level 90 ish in abyssea.

Leaf Dagger, is an oddity as I noted before. There was NOT a 5% difference from the randomizer. There were only 2 damages which were considered. However I calculated it out the rest of the way as if it did.

Thank you for the suggestions for abyssea testing. I would have forgotten to look for an NM. A static NM actually makes this MUCH easier and there are no competition concerns on test server.

I'm not quite sure what to look for for the 1.0 plateau however. .A frequency spike? The same damage numbers happening significaly more frequently than others?

I AM pretty sure almost all if not all physical ready moves are STR modified. I will be pleasantly surprised to find any other stats which modify them. I saw a very definite boost from str in dapper mac's wing slap in abyssea after my base testing yesterday. (trying to check some magic damage, but really brenner is best for that).

Why do you suggest a scars zone? Frankly I would suspect a Heroes zone w/ NM's closer to level 99 would make finding a 1.0 plateau more likely.


Edit:
I gathered some numbers for GorefangHobs and DapperMac. I picked on Gukumatz. Though, It appears str boosts damage a bit. I'm would probably only work on 1 or 2 pets at a time for these types of tests... gets a bit tedious. Also I think identifying attack values would make this better. I don't have specific stats for gukumatz such as vit or def.. might be good to figure out stats for an aby - timespawn nm.

Also I do not see any frequency spikes... furthermore it apears the "resists" do alot ot cloud the damage boundaries when pdif isn't capped.
For example, I see no obvious boundaries in damage between 485 and 1242 damage for claw cyclone. There are almost no doubles of the same damage either. which will probably point to needs larger sample size. How many samples do you suppose one should get for this. 50 samples made it very obvious for the level 0 mob tests. 50 samples for this one doesn't mean much to me.

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 4:34pm by Xilk
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#391 Feb 06 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I think if level correction starts working against you a lot then there is a chance you may miss it. And yeah, the 1.0 frequency spike is going to be a set of numbers from 1.0 pDIF to 1.05 (pDIF*randomizer) that show up much more frequently than the others.

Wild Oats is probably a ranged TP move, which is why it's so consistent and follows a different equation than the others. If there are two values, perhaps it is "True Shot" and not. I don't know anything about monster ranged damage, so I can't really help you there.


STR is going to appear to modify all the TP moves because fSTR doesn't cap for monsters (as far as we can tell), but what you need to find is whether you get more of a boost from STR than you would expect from fSTR (about 1 STR every 4). I would recommend using a STR Atma like Stout Arm when you're getting your baseline (avoid DA still, I guess) so that you put your monster in the +4 STR = +1 base damage range.

In relation to this, if you were using a lot of different low level monsters then you may have gotten variable damage (for instance, on Wild Oats) because low level monsters have different VITs and fSTR is uncapped. Kegsay saw this in his tests. It would be exceptionally apparent in Wild Oats because that move is ranged and uses fSTR2 (2 STR = 1 base damage).
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#392 Feb 06 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Thinking about it some more, if you get the 1.0 pDIF spike about in the middle of your range for melee hits, you should be able to tell if certain TP moves have attack bonuses/penalties.
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#393 Feb 06 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Would there be value I redoing base damage calculations w/ BST/drk ?
Using absorb bit should max fstr....but I imagine it would add probably 1 maybe 2 base damage to all pets.

I really wonder if base damage for pets is just based off str anyway. There is very little variation in mob base damage of the same job type. Usually a difference in base damage is combined w/ a decrease in delay also...

Edited, Feb 6th 2013 8:02pm by Xilk
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#394 Feb 11 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ophanus pointed something out to me in a PM which I actually figured a few days after my SE bug report about the strange resistence to pet ready moves.

I had actually forgotten about it, even though I thought of it before. My testing was vs bees and mandy's. Mandy's guard. I wasn't sure if they could Guard special moves, but Ophanus says they do, which sounds right anyway.
However, I'm not hte only one who collected samples of this. Falkirk did also. Please confirm if you were fighting Mandragora or not w/ those headbutt samples.

And. that leads us too...
Does anyone know by how much Guard reduces damage? I don't think anyone has... and i think we just stumbled upon the answer. I think this shows that guard reduces damage by the same factors which magic damage can be resisted.

Thank you Ophanus :D

Edit:
Actually, the bgwiki page says guarded attacks have pdif reduced by 1.0.. and that's really not what's happening here.. and Falkirk's tests where the same damage reduction was observed are NOT vs mandragora.

Edited, Feb 11th 2013 7:49pm by Xilk
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#395 Feb 11 2013 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Also, I've not crunched the numbers yet, but Bookmarku sent me some 100% tp damage values.

Quote:
I don't know if it's terribly useful, but I have been gathering 100% TP Ready move info vs Wild Rabbits. :) Here are my numbers so far (messy as they are):

LuckyLulush:
Foot Kick - 868, 212, 869, 855, 871, 866, 848, 849, 862, 848, 835, 873, 858, 867, 842
Whirl Claws - 1082, 1077, 1050, 1062, 1066, 1062, 1062, 1067, 1081, 1063, 1039, 1049, 1065, 1073, 1059

FlowerpotMerle:
Head **** - 614, 617, 595, 621, 600, 598, 613, 609, 603
Leaf Dagger - 279, 69, 279, 279, 279
Wild Oats - 309, 302, 309, 300, 310, 297, 75, 307, 307, 296, 308, 309, 309, 306, 296, 309

NurseryNazuna:
Lamb Chop - 1610, 1644, 1635, 1587, 1591, 1587, 1649, 1623, 1654, 1662,
Sheep Charge - 813, 205, 818, 810, 823, 823, 830, 831, 792

CrudeRaphie:
Tortoise Stomp - 671, 648, 644, 676

GorefangHobs:
Razor Fang - 1577, 1590, 1571, 1591, 1604, 1611, 1628, 1586, 1613, 1595, 1592, 1613, 1576, 1595, 1560, 1561
Claw Cyclone - 1040, 1042, 1067, 1062, 1088

BugeyedBroncha:
Nimble Snap - 539, 522, 534, 528, 521, 527, 521, 518, 523, 536


This definitely shows some tp moves which have damage vary w/ tp. should be able to get some 100% tp mod estimates as well. but it doesn't look like we have the full range of 4.0 to 4.2 pdif on all of them.
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#396 Feb 11 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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My Head **** samples were done against Wild Rabbits because I was checking for a damage change from Ferine Cabasset +2. :)

Edit: I've got some more 100% TP Ready samples as well:

FatsoFargann:
Suction - 808, 788, 804, 808, 811, 812, 782, 802, 787, 809

FaithfulFalcorr:
Back Heel - 1540, 1524, 1541, 1567, 1525, 1549, 1516, 1525, 1542, 1513, 1559, 1551, 1534, 1553, 1563, 1542, 1517, 386, 1530, 1561, 1513, 1520
Choke Breath - 504, 524, 508, 508, 511, 528

Since I don't know your numbers from the 300% TP samples you took, which ones are "Damage Varies With TP" so far? Kinda curious. :D

Edited, Feb 11th 2013 1:19pm by Bookmarku
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#397 Feb 11 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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silly me didn't post the actual min/maxes for ready moves....
These are all 300% tp samples
 
Familiar	Ready		Min	Max 
Turbid Toloi	Recoil Dive		 
Lucky Lulush	Foot Kick	1658	1752 
Lucky Lulush	Whirl Claws	1285	1346 
Dipper Yuly	Spiral Spin	992	1040 
Dipper Yuly	Sudden Lunge	748	781 
Flowerpot Merle	Head ****		 
Flowerpot Merle	Leaf Dagger	273	279 
Flowerpot Merle	Wild Oats	731	775 
Nursery Nazuna	Lamb Chop	1577	1658 
Nursery Nazuna	Sheep charge	1583	1645 
DapperMac	Wing Slap	186	189 
DapperMac	Beak Lunge	601	630 
Discreet Louise	Frogkick	1050	1100 
Fatso Fargann	Suction		1561	1607 
Audacious Anna	Tail blow	1032	1087 
Audacious Anna	Blockhead	1039	1082 
Audacious Anna	Brain Crush	1578	1636 
FaithfulFalcorr	Backheel	1502	1580 
FaithfulFalcorr	Choke Breath	505	528 
Swift Sieghard	Scythe tail	1549	1632 
Swift Sieghard	Ripper fang	1032	1081 
Swift Sieghard	Chomp Rush	1044	1091 
Bugeyed Broncha	Nimble Snap	520	545 
Bugeyed Broncha	Cyclotail	522	539 
Gorefang Hobs	Razor fang	1549	1624 
Gorefang Hobs	Claw Cyclone	1038	1092 
CrudeRaphie	Tortoise Stomp	1924	2019 
 


Edited, Feb 11th 2013 6:27pm by Xilk

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 11:00am by Xilk
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#398 Feb 12 2013 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Updated ready move table:

 
Familiar	m.baseD	Ready		Charges	Type		Target	FTP300%	FTP100% 
Turbid Toloi	130	Recoil Dive	1	Physical	Conal		 
Lucky Lulush	128	Foot Kick	1	Slashing	Single	3.0	1.5 
Lucky Lulush	128	Whirl Claws	1	Piercing	Radial	2.0	2.0 
Dipper Yuly	124	Spiral Spin	1	Slashing	Conal	2.0	 
Dipper Yuly	124	Sudden Lunge	1	Blunt		Single	1.5	 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Head ****	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	2.0 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Leaf Dagger	1	Slashing	Single	0.9	 
Flowerpot Merle	73	Wild Oats	1	Piercing	Single	2.0	1.0 
Nursery Nazuna	131	Lamb Chop	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	3.0 
Nursery Nazuna	131	Sheep charge	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	1.5 
DapperMac	75	Wing Slap	1	Blunt		Single	0.6	 
DapperMac	75	Beak Lunge	2	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Discreet Louise	131	Frogkick	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Fatso Fargann	130	Suction		1	Blunt		Single	3.0	1.5 
Audacious Anna	130	Tail blow	1	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Audacious Anna	130	Blockhead	1	Blunt		Single	2.0	 
Audacious Anna	130	Brain Crush	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	 
FaithfulFalcorr	126	Backheel	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	3.0 
FaithfulFalcorr	126	Choke Breath	1	Slashing	Conal	1.0	1.0 
Swift Sieghard	129	Scythe tail	1	Blunt		Single	3.0	 
Swift Sieghard	129	Ripper fang	1	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Swift Sieghard	129	Chomp Rush	3	Slashing	Single	2.0	 
Bugeyed Broncha	130	Nimble Snap	1	Slashing	Single	1.0	1.0 
Bugeyed Broncha	130	Cyclotail	1	Blunt		Radial	1.0	 
Gorefang Hobs	130	Razor fang	1	Slashing	Single	3.0	3.0 
Gorefang Hobs	130	Claw Cyclone	2	Slashing	Conal	2.0	2.0 
CrudeRaphie	130	Tortoise Stomp	2	Blunt		Radial	3.7	1.24 


One side note: Wing Slap can hit multiple times. You won't see the multihits in the level 0 mob testing. They always die in the first hit. I saw it in my Gukumatsu samples. it was doing ~480 damage. Methinks there were 3 hits involved. (although the animation looks like 4 hits... but when does that ever matter?)

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 11:03am by Xilk
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#399 Feb 12 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, I'd recommend combining the Min/Max damage values into that table if possible.

Currently (if I'm reading this right), you have:
Base Melee damage (not during WS) and "fTP" for the WS, which is actually "approximate fTP assuming that there is no stat modifier that contributes to TP move damage."



Also, you need to be WSing the same type of monster over and over (like Tiny Mandragora vs. Tiny Bumblebee). Different kinds of L0 monsters VITs are different by 1. Depending on your pet's exact STR, this may make a 1 base damage difference in their damage. Looking at your Foot Kick data, for instance, you have more than a 5% spread between your max and your min, which indicates that your fSTR has changed (probably by 1). Leaf Dagger is the same, though the 6 damage difference either tells you that it's approximately (but not exactly) a 2 fTP TP move (3 fTP max for ranged?) or that monsters use a different Ranged pDIF formula too. You could use this to test fTP if you wanted in the following way:
1) Figure out exactly the base melee damage your pet has against a specific of monster.
2) Figure out exactly the base damage during TP moves that your pet has against the same type of monster.
3) Move to a higher level monster where you still cap damage (say a level 60 Lizard) and repeat 1 and 2.

You can see changes in fSTR in the normal melee damage too (except for ranged WSs) and so you know how much the base damage during WS has changed. The larger the difference in VITs between your targets, the higher your fTP precision will be. If you test on something that you just barely cap on, this may also let you figure out if there is an attack penalty on the pet TP moves (depending how the penalty is applied).
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#400 Feb 12 2013 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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Byrthnoth wrote:
Okay, I'd recommend combining the Min/Max damage values into that table if possible.

Currently (if I'm reading this right), you have:
Base Melee damage (not during WS) and "fTP" for the WS, which is actually "approximate fTP assuming that there is no stat modifier that contributes to TP move damage."



Also, you need to be WSing the same type of monster over and over (like Tiny Mandragora vs. Tiny Bumblebee). Different kinds of L0 monsters VITs are different by 1. Depending on your pet's exact STR, this may make a 1 base damage difference in their damage. Looking at your Foot Kick data, for instance, you have more than a 5% spread between your max and your min, which indicates that your fSTR has changed (probably by 1). Leaf Dagger is the same, though the 6 damage difference either tells you that it's approximately (but not exactly) a 2 fTP TP move (3 fTP max for ranged?) or that monsters use a different Ranged pDIF formula too. You could use this to test fTP if you wanted in the following way:
1) Figure out exactly the base melee damage your pet has against a specific of monster.
2) Figure out exactly the base damage during TP moves that your pet has against the same type of monster.
3) Move to a higher level monster where you still cap damage (say a level 60 Lizard) and repeat 1 and 2.

You can see changes in fSTR in the normal melee damage too (except for ranged WSs) and so you know how much the base damage during WS has changed. The larger the difference in VITs between your targets, the higher your fTP precision will be. If you test on something that you just barely cap on, this may also let you figure out if there is an attack penalty on the pet TP moves (depending how the penalty is applied).



Good advice to avoid a 1 vit difference. However your examples of foot kick and leaf dagger aren't really examples of this.

Foot kick is the only critical hit Ready move there is. You are seeing a larger than .05 spread because it has a crit attack bonus trait in there. Also Leaf Dagger is the move which only had 2 different damage values (not wild oats). Its probably ranged. it only hits for 273 or 279 damage. Which is why those two moves do not have the expected range split.

Edit: Actually, this difference is probably exactly because its ranged, and exactly because of a 1 vit difference in targets. Ranged damage on automaton does not vary at all. Falkirk has a few samples of this on wild rabbits. I believe his samples are only 1 mob type and his damage does not vary at all. (only the strange "resisted" type damage which occasionally happens).

I actually did not intend to include the Melee base damage in that table.... I actually have all the above data in 1 big table. I just hide some before copying it over to share it in the thread. Edit: The base melee damage numbers above do reflect a 1 vit difference also.. it was always teetering between 1 point of base damage or another, and I'm sure from your comments that it is because of the vit difference between bees and mandragora. Not sure which numbers to use. I could probably just get both by sorting my existing parses.

And yes, also, that the ftp modifiers are not as precise as they could be. It was a toss up between getting lots and lots of samples for precision, vs sampling each ready move to give a more general picture. I opted for the general picture at this point. more practical imo.

I don't know how long it will be before I actually get around to checking for 'WS' modifiers for ready moves. Its lower on my priority list for a few reasons.

1, I think figuring attack values would make it easier to figure stat mods on ws's. and many other things and I think it takes about the same amount of work and testing. Attack values are really the most critical piece of missing info imo. Cursor ready move numbers were just much more convenient to collect at the current level.

2. I highly doubt there are specific stat mods for monster moves. IT makes sense for a player, because players equip gear which modify these stats. However, monsters don't have gear. It would really be needlessly complicated from a programmer's perspective IMO. Japanese love making things needlessly complicated, but I think they dodged that one. Also, long ago testing for stat mods on magical ready moves yielded 0 results (charged whisker's I"m thinking of you). The recent discussions regarding battle system adjustments also indicated that NM stats usually are not thru the roof for INT, STR, VIt, etc... they would usually take attack, and def, and level as the preferred numbers to manipulate. (ie, nm's which have normal int levels, but nukes are strong because of massive amounts of MAB).
Also the ftp modifier estimates show a very clear pattern. They are almost all whole numbers (1.0 and 3.0) and the pattern keeps across multiple pets. This indicates a general mob design pattern which keeps it simple. I could be completely wrong, but...

I suppose I could share the spreadsheet on Google Doc's.. but its mostly not a nice clean thing. I have some columns which are nicely formatted and labelled.. and a few which are more scratchpad-like... which I usually hide.

I really keep 1 table to collect all pet stat data, and another for ready moves.

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 5:38pm by Xilk
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#401 Feb 12 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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floor(floor(floor(D*fTP)*pDIF1*pDIF2)*crit damage) = Damage

pDIF1 would be the normal spread of damage that depends on the monster's current Ratio. We know it is always 4 for capped Ratio on pets.
pDIF2 would be the flat 1~1.05 randomizer

Regardless whether or not there is crit damage, pDIF2 is still a 1~1.05 multiplier and we should only see 1.05 when we divide the max by the min (ignoring flooring). Being more than a point or two of damage outside the range indicates a change in D (or non-capped fTP in this case), and being only a point or two outside the max might just be flooring changes. In this case we're several points outside the range, so base damage probably changed.


It's good to know that pet magic TP moves have no stat modifiers. Do they use dSTAT (like dINT)? I know that Avatar BPs at least use dINT and probably use the full magic damage equation with an extra term for fTP.


Edit: ooooh, unless Foot Kick has a non-100% crit rate? In that case we'd expect a 13.4% variance.

Edited, Feb 12th 2013 5:40pm by Byrthnoth
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