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Now that we have AF3+2, Exact Killer + testing.Follow

#27 Nov 27 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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Slight update on this:

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer, Kogglemander/Zonure
Bird Killer - Fowling Earring
Amorph Killer - Done~!
Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail
Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer, Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Plantoid Killer - Barkborer/Eventreuce, Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Beast Killer - Vendetta/Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer, Rogue Riceball with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)
Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow/+1, Dragon Steak, Red Curry Bun +1
Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape, Hellsteak +1
Undead Killer - Esquire's Mantle, Vampiric Mitts, Templar Mace
Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru, Naval Rice Ball
Italicized means BST can wear it.
All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

I still haven't managed to get ahold of a MMM weapon. It seems everyone that I knew who actually did the event quit a long time ago and no one wants to put in the time to build Marbles and buy the useful Runes (including myself). I figure testing a single NQ/HQ BLU sword pair would be enough for me to knock them all off the list. If we could eliminate those two sets of items, the list would look like this:

Vermin Killer - Done~!
Bird Killer - Fowling Earring
Amorph Killer - Done~!
Lizard Killer - Done~!
Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Plantoid Killer - Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Beast Killer - Vendetta, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Beast Slayer, Rogue Riceball with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)
Demon Killer - Staurobow/+1, Dragon Steak, Red Curry Bun +1
Dragon Killer - Oneiros Cape, Hellsteak +1
Undead Killer - Esquire's Mantle, Vampiric Mitts, Templar Mace
Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru, Naval Rice Ball
Italicized means BST can wear it.


I have been trying to get Vampiric Boots (and then the plan is to get Vampiric Mitts) but without luck. I'm over 0/40 on them now. I guess I can switch to Mitts and see if I have any more luck there so I can test it.
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#28 Dec 01 2012 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Red Curry Bun +1 (w/300% Cloudsplitter):

No Body Armor, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1134
Ferine Gausape +2, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1168 (+3% damage, either +6 or +7 Demon Killer)
Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Red Curry Bun +1 - 1168 (Definitely Demon Killer +6)

Dragon Steak (w/300% Cloudsplitter):

No Body Armor, Dragon Steak - 1155
Ferine Gausape +2, Dragon Steak - 1178 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Demon Killer)
Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Dragon Steak - 1189 (+3% damage - therefore, the Dragon Steak is Demon Killer +5)

Edit: Hellsteak/+1 is similar to Marinara Pizza/+1 in that the NQ/HQ give the same Killer Effect +5. In the case of Hellsteak, it is Dragon Killer +5.

Hellsteak +1 (vs. Peapuks, w/300% Cloudsplitter)

No Body Armor, Heallsteak +1 - 1350
Ferine Gausape +2, Hellsteak +1 - 1377 (+2% damage, so either +4 or +5 Dragon Killer)
Ferine Gausape +2, Flawless Ribbon, Hellsteak +1 - 1390 (+3% damage - so the effect of Hellsteak +1 alone is Dragon Killer +5)

Edited, Dec 4th 2012 5:48am by Bookmarku
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#29 Dec 29 2012 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's a new addition to Meeble Burrows - Palimpsests, in particular the Intimidation variety...

They only offer 2 Killer Effect bonuses, Beast and Vermin, but here's my check on their potency:

Intimidation Palimpsest (Vermin Killer): 300% TP Cloudsplitters vs. Goldenwing (Adjunct #5 Notorious Monster)

Without Body Armor - 924 DMG
With Ferine Gausape +2 - 979 DMG (+6% damage)
With Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 and +14 STR - 1001 DMG (+7% damage + 14 from the Boost-STR)

The main complication with doing the test for this boon is that there are basically no other Vermin in any of the Meeble missions (the majority are lizard/amorph). And then there's the fact that Goldenwing is an NM, which means using the idea sorted out in these posts (tl;dr, Killer Effects are chopped to 2/3rds potency against NMs).

When I did my second Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 equipped the damage was slightly higher than you would expect with just Vermin Killer II trait + 5 Killer Effect merits (those two alone would've supplied +(15% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +4~5% damage). Instead it's more in the range of +(20% KE * 0.66 / 2) damage = +6% damage, assuming that the Palimpsest is approximately 5% Vermin Killer.

It could also be +21% overall Killer Effects (10% trait, 5% merits, 6% Palimpsest), which the Beast Trousers +1 test reveals is the case. I had Boost-STR for that one, though I'm pretty sure +1 STR = +1 Cloudsplitter DMG, yes? And it looks like the extra 1% KE from Beast Trousers +1 pushed me up to a damage bonus of +(22% KE * 0.66 / 2) = +7% damage.

If something seems amiss, let me know, but I'm looking at Palimpsest Killer boons being +6%.
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#30 Dec 29 2012 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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300 TP Cloudsplitter is 6 fTP without fTP boosting gear (gorget/belt), which I assume you weren't using because your base one was 924 damage (154 base damage). It has no fINT, which makes it great for these tests. It also is 40% STR / 40% MND.

+14 STR is +4 or +5 base damage depending on your initial strength, so we'd expect +24 or +30 damage with 6 fTP.
14*.4 = 5.6, so it will give 5 or 6 base damage before level correction
5*.85 = 4.25, so 4 base damage
6*.85 = 5.10, so 5 base damage

4*6 fTP = 24 damage
5*6 fTP = 30 damage

(924+24)*1.06 = 1004
(924+30)*1.06 = 1011

This means we'd expect a minimum of 1004 damage even if Beast Trousers +1 didn't increase your base damage. I suspect something else changed here. What pants were you using before you switched to Beast Trousers +1?
1001/1.07 = +3 base damage (936 damage)
1001/1.06 = +3.5 base damage (945 damage) : Doesn't really work out.

I'd conclude that it is +7% damage in the Beast Trousers case because +6% damage doesn't work out cleanly, but something else must have changed. Do you use Hrafn Hose normally or something?

edit: Actually, upon closer examination I see that the Palimpset also has WS damage Bonus attached to it, which means that the base case being divisible by 6 must have just been luck. In this case you'd expect base damage changes to be multiplied further, which makes the seemingly low base damage in the final case all-the-more confusing.

Edited, Dec 29th 2012 11:37pm by Byrthnoth
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#31 Dec 30 2012 at 4:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're right that I wasn't using any +fTP gear, it was my TP set. ^^

924 Damage Cloudsplitter with no Body Armor (STR 134, MND 89)
979 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Avant Cuisses +1 (STR 134, MND 89)
1001 Damage Cloudsplitter with Ferine Gausape +2 and Beast Trousers +1 (STR 148, MND 89)

I don't otherwise know how to explain the low damage. You've obviously displayed a powerful grasp of the formula behind Cloudsplitter! So... would some sort of -DT on Goldenwing explain it? :o And I'm not sure if we had the WS damage+ boon or not... When you trade a Palimpsest to the grimoire you choose which buff you want out of the three options.
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#32 Dec 30 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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Okay, assuming you didn't have the WS damage (you're probably right about this, I've never used one of the palimpsests).

(99+2+WSC)*6 = Base damage
WSC = FLOOR( FLOOR( 0.4*STR + 0.4*MND , 1) * 0.85 , 1)

First two cases: 176 base damage, 1056 damage expected and 924 observed unmodified. This is -12.5% damage, which is a pretty normal magic correction amount. SE loves to give things 1/8 resistance. Putting on Ferine body gives +6% damage as expected.

Last case: 180 base damage, 1080 damage expected and 1001 observed. 12.5% damage reduction from 1080 gives us 945 expected and +6% damage from that gives us 1001 damage. So Beast Trousers +1 did not add any additional damage.

So you start out with (15+X%) Killer potency and get a 6% damage increase. We know that there has to be some kind of NM related adjustment here, but we don't really know what so we can't say the value of X with absolute certainty until the test is repeated without a Palimpsest. However, if you're correct in assuming about 2/3 normal killer potency then we'd be looking at +3~4% from the Palimpsest, right?

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%
(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:
(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%
(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%
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#33 Dec 30 2012 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
So you start out with (15+X%) Killer potency and get a 6% damage increase. We know that there has to be some kind of NM related adjustment here, but we don't really know what so we can't say the value of X with absolute certainty until the test is repeated without a Palimpsest. However, if you're correct in assuming about 2/3 normal killer potency then we'd be looking at +3~4% from the Palimpsest, right?

(15%+3%)*2/3 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%
(15%+5%)*2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6% (with beast trousers +1, so 4% base)

If it's 50%, then it could be 9~11%:
(15%+9%)/2 = 12%, 12%/2 = 6%
(15%+12%)/2 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%


I'm pretty confident about the 2/3rd Killer potency! And I think you can extend the possible range of Palimpsest (what an annoying word to type!) effectiveness to +3~5% because even at the maximum potential of that range the Beast Trousers would pump the overall Killer Effects to +21% - and then 21% * 2/3 = 13%, 13%/2 = 6%. I went into the test assuming that the boon would be approximately as effective as food-related killer effects, and 5% is a common one...

So, ok, I'll do the test again someday and I'll get some numbers without the boon in place - and maybe another sample where I push Killer Effects to reach that +7% damage threshold. Thanks for the detailed info, Byrth!
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#34 Dec 30 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Well:
21%*2/3 = 14%
14%/2 = 7%

Nice!
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#35 Dec 30 2012 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, I was doing 21 * 0.66 to get 13.86 and then rounding down. :o
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#36 Jan 04 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Bookmarku wrote:
Oh, I was doing 21 * 0.66 to get 13.86 and then rounding down. :o


Using 0.66 is already rounding down :)
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#37 Jan 05 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Good
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Finally got Vampiric Mitts. I took them to Nachzehrers in KRT (no Double Attack), cast Phalanx, and parsed it. 97 intimidations out of ~2000 attacks, or a 5% intimidation rate. It could also technically be 4% (though it's far less likely), but this is good enough for current testing methods.
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#38 Jan 05 2013 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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Another update:

Vermin Killer - Insect/Vermin Slayer, Kogglemander/Zonure
Bird Killer - Done~!
Amorph Killer - Done~!
Lizard Killer - Scheherazade/Ermine's Tail
Aquan Killer - Admiral's Shield, Aquan/Marine Slayer, Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Plantoid Killer - Barkborer/Eventreuce, Epsilon Earring (in Salvage)
Beast Killer - Vendetta, Onishibari/Zaide, General's/Koenig/Kaiser Shield, Rogue Riceball with enhancing gear/atma on (I haven't been able to find one)
Demon Killer - Demon/Devil Slayer, Staurobow +1
Dragon Killer - Dragon/Wyrm Slayer, Oneiros Cape
Undead Killer - Esquire's Mantle
Arcana Killer - Messhikimaru, Naval Rice Ball
Italicized means BST can wear it or use it (Riceballs can be used with the Winged Enigma Atma).
All Types: Killer's/Eradicator's Kilij

In addition to Vampiric Mitts, I hammered out Templar Mace (2%), Fowling Earring (3%), and Staurobow NQ (1%). I again checked my LS and found that no one has any significant MMM experience. Port Jeuno shouting was similarly unsuccessful. The two primary classes of things still unknown are BLU swords and MMM weapons. If we get an NQ/HQ BLU sword pair and any of the MMM weapons, I'd fill them all in and call it "good enough." That would eliminate 18 of the 31 remaining untested Killer items.

Edit: I noticed my mule actually has both BLU and Beast Slayer (from the ZNM Qiqirn), so I tested that against Rarabs and found a 15% Beast Killer proc rate. Iirc, that makes it the most potent killer equipment in the game. Unfortunately, I doubt it generalizes to the other weapons. I've heard 4-5% thrown around for the NQ/HQ BLU sword pairs.

I also decided to test BLU job traits. Beast Killer (2 spells) came out at 8% flat (excluded 9%). Beast Killer (4 spells) hung out at 10% for a long time, then drifted down to 9%. I don't know what it's going to do from here, but I've put my mule on "Away" and I'm leaving him in a corner with Rarabs.

Edit 2: It drifted down to 8% flat after over 50,000 swings. Also, I just noticed that Vendetta doesn't come from MMM so I've adjusted the numbers above accordingly.

Edited, Jan 6th 2013 4:50am by Byrthnoth
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#39 Jan 09 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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I did manage to get a Maze for Kogglemander on three characters, so hopefully I can get a sword to test out of it in the coming weeks.

Also, I did CS Apollyon II on DNC/SAM with Red Curry Buns and Warding Circle up most of the time (17% Killer anticipated). I parsed a little north of 5%, which indicates that killer potency is likely 1/3-strength in there.
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#40 Jan 09 2013 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, they're definitely flagged as Notorious Monsters (I didn't /check them, but I assume you get the Impossible to Gauge! message). :)

The numbers don't work out exactly, but it's very obvious that there is again an approximate 1/3 reduction in Killer Effect% potency. It's probably not exactly 1/3rd, or my rounding isn't correct, but you can see the results and help me out. This is against the Demon-y demons, DRK, BLM, PLD (ignored the RDM and Finale'd the PLD's Shell).

-- Demon Killer Testing in CS Apollyon II --

99 BST/SAM
Killer Effect % - 14%
STR 101+41
MND 80+10

Base 300% Cloudsplitter w/ Red Curry Bun, Tatami Shield - 805
300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2 - 845 (+5% damage, so +10 or +11 Demon Killer)
300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Flawless Ribbon - 845 (+5%, so it was +10 Demon Killer)

If the Killer Effects were chopped to 2/3rds, I would've guessed 9% effective KE, but it gave numbers that reflected 10% effective KE. Now I add Warding Circle for +5% Circle damage and +5% Killer Effect. Since my Killer Effects are at 19%, I presume it will be cut down to 12.66%, rounded down to 12%.

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle - 895 (+5% damage from Warding Circle and +6% on top of that from +12 or +13 Demon Killer)
300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle, Flawless Ribbon - 895 (+5% Circle and +6% again, so +12 Demon Killer)

That one worked out okay. And then I used Sanctus Rosary (+3% Demon Killer) which brings the actual Killer Effects to 22%

300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle, Sanctus Rosary - 904 (+5% Circle and ~+7% damage, so +14/+15 Demon Killer)
300% Cloudsplitter w/ RCB, Tatami Shield, Ferine +2, Warding Circle, Sanctus Rosary, Flawless Ribbon - 904 (+5% Circle dmg and ~+7% damage again, so +14)

This one is slightly off from what I expected (the damage is a lil' higher than what I would've guessed).

Edited, Jan 9th 2013 5:46pm by Bookmarku
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#41 Jan 09 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, so
Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 5/14 and 3/7}
Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}

Together {X mus be between 5/14 and 2/5} : So it's .357~0.4

Sorry, I need to bbl but I will look at the rest later.
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#42 Jan 25 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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To come back to this:
Floor(14*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 5/14 and 3/7}
Floor(15*X,1) = 5% {X must be between 1/3 and 2/5}
Floor(19*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 6/19 and 7/19}
Floor(20*X,1) = 6% {X must be between 3/10 and 7/20}
Floor(22*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/22 and 4/11}
Floor(23*X,1) = 7% {X must be between 7/23 and 8/23}

This is very hard to fit linearly, especially because 8/23 is smaller than 5/14 which means that those ranges don't overlap. This could be caused by flooring, but not in any way I can figure out. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not Circle potency is attenuated as well. If Circle potency drops to 4% against those monsters then we might be off by 1% in our assessment of Killer potency. If that was the case, then 37.5% (3/8) would fit as the modifier. To confirm this, you would need to do a Cloudsplitter with and without Circle up while not wearing AF3+2 body.


Additionally, Vendetta is 5% Beast Killer so that one can be crossed off. I get another 3 shots at Kogglemander tonight.
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#43 Jan 25 2013 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Byrthnoth wrote:
This is very hard to fit linearly, especially because 8/23 is smaller than 5/14 which means that those ranges don't overlap. This could be caused by flooring, but not in any way I can figure out. Another thing that we don't know is whether or not Circle potency is attenuated as well. If Circle potency drops to 4% against those monsters then we might be off by 1% in our assessment of Killer potency. If that was the case, then 37.5% (3/8) would fit as the modifier. To confirm this, you would need to do a Cloudsplitter with and without Circle up while not wearing AF3+2 body.


Warding Circle vs. Quasimodo:

99 BST/SAM
STR: 101+75
MND: 80+52

300% TP Cloudsplitter without Warding Circle: 717
300% TP Cloudsplitter with Warding Circle: 752 (+5% damage)

Edit: Wrote Arcane Circle instead of Warding Circle. ^^;

Edited, Jan 30th 2013 3:36pm by Bookmarku
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#44 Apr 11 2014 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Arktoi's "Killer" Effects +5 is like Tatami Shield/Flawless Ribbon in that it bestows universal Killer Effects.

VS. Sea Puk
Just Arktoi equipped: 300% TP Primal Rend = 729
Arktoi + Ferine Gausape +2: 300% TP Primal Rend = 743 (+2% damage, since floor([Killer Effect +5] / 2) = 2% damage increase)
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#45 Apr 16 2014 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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I really appreciate the testing you folks do. Thanks!
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