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Whats the scoop on RNG and NIN?Follow

#1 Jul 20 2005 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
Hello Alla,

I was just wondering if anyone had a chance to playtest the RNG and NIN classes post update. While I dont play those classes personally the information still has value to me as I invite those char classes to pts on a semi regular basis.

In short I am wanting to know specifics on RNG damage output post update, and NIN hate control with Utsemi. Can anyone whos played those classes both pre and post update offer up some comparisons?

Thanks in advance,

GOB



Edited, Wed Jul 20 07:52:11 2005 by goblobsters
#2 Jul 20 2005 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
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1,502 posts
I've not heard much about NIN yet and mine is too low to give a proper test. Given the fact there aren't 87567656754643 threads from NINs ******** about it though, I imagine it's either not too bad, or they haven't tested it fully yet.

There is however 87567656754643 threads from ******** RNG. They've been hit hard apparently.
#3 Jul 20 2005 at 9:40 AM Rating: Default
29 posts
RNG's took quite a severe hit... to the point where RNG damage isn't that much greater than a higher damage melee DD (MNK, DRK, WAR), but at the cost of bullets and arrows.

As for the Utsu hate clearing... it's pretty bad. Hate deminishes incredibly after shadows are absorbed.

S-E went way too far with this patch. I see a revolt on the horizon....!~

Edit: Spelling is hard. ; ;

Edited, Wed Jul 20 10:48:49 2005 by MistressCelestia
#4 Jul 20 2005 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
i did a roaming party in sky on deco weapons yesterday after the update. i only lose hate to rampage+soul eater and to side winder. my friend said that his new weapon of choice is e-bow at long rang, seemed to be the best for dmg.

one rng told me that at point blank rng takes about a 30% decrease in dmg, however, that still puts them above all other melee in damage.
#5 Jul 20 2005 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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594 posts
HOLY ****!!!! NINJAS!!!!

I too will be testing the new Ninja Utsusemi this evening. I'll post my results. Aside from that though, I have this to offer...

Whether or not the update makes people happy, it does make sense. If a mob hits one of your shadows it would logically think that you died as the shadow dissappeared. That would mean it had less interest in you. Which means less 'hate'.

As far as the RNG update, anyone who has ever picked up a bow and arrow in real life knows that an arrow does drastically more damage from a distance. Point blank doesnt compare to 50 yards.

I think someone else posted this theory as well, but I think it needs repeating.

Good luck RNG's and fellow Ninjas^^

#6 Jul 20 2005 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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1,315 posts
I have yet to see I devastatingly noiticeable difference. I think other classes whom have simply had RNG envy for so long are waiting to pounce on anything negative. Even a small decrease would make them get boners, but as I said, I have yet to see that huge of a difference.
#7 Jul 20 2005 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Rangers still deal practically the same amount of damage despite what people (Celestia) say which are just over-exaggerations. Once you find the right spot to stand, you're golden.

Tanking as ninja isn't really a problem now IF you use ninja tools to keep hate. If you relied solely on Utsusemi and Provoke then you're in for a rough ride. This is when the best blink tanks will shine.
#8 Jul 20 2005 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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1,215 posts
this was the "know your role!!" patch.

RNG:
shouldnt rangers be most effective from far away? the patch made it so RNGs would have to take into consideration their distance. stay farther away for more damage.. but less accuracy. stay close for more ACC but less damage.

the 2nd part of the RNG "nerf" was inevitable... and it was needed. c'mon? before the patch range attacks hit for full dmg no matter the mob stat/level.... while melee attacks would not, how fair was that?

Utsusemi:
NINs can still tank.. by spamming the nin-wheel. i think this part of the patch was to keep all the sub /nin from main tanking. WAR/nin, MNK/nin now lose hate more easily. however, this will make us an excellent backup tank; get hate just enough to give the main tank a breather, then lose it back.

overall... i think SE is saying.. let the TANKs tank.. let the melee melee... let the RNGs range! pretty fair patch in my opinion.

#9 Jul 20 2005 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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99 posts
At 64 it seems my attacks hit harder than spells, considering they are resisted most of the time. So spamming a wheel for 1-20 damage a pop isnt worth my time. Especially with double attack and berserk.

I usually throw in 1 elemental after recasting Utsusemi.

Edited, Wed Jul 20 16:16:01 2005 by Gellybluntz
#10 Jul 20 2005 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Well if you can keep hate doing just attacks then go for it. It's just that alot of ninjas can't. I've partied with over 20+ ninja tanks throughtout leveling ranger and only have come across 2 good ninja tanks. You don't use the ninja spell to do damage, you use them to get hate.
#11 Jul 20 2005 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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99 posts
Honestly post60, if you just spam the wheel, youre preventing yourself from getting TP, double attack chances, using berserk to the fullest. And the best hate controlling tool {Blade: Jin} ( sometimes... )

Throw a tool out now and then, also MB, but the good and bad NIN isnt going to be determined by who spams the wheel. Its all about your cash flow and equipment, just like any other melee job. And knowing your job...

Some people might play differently though. But the only things I have trouble holding hate against really are high damage WS. But sometimes theres nothing you can do but try your best to get hate back.

I did however spam elemental Ninjitsu from 40-55 as it usually did alot more than my attacks would. So it will separate the good and bad ninja's from levels 40-60.

-- As for RNG. I haven't touched it in a few weeks. But after looking at the RNG forum, you would think that it's the end for all RNG's o.O

Probably people over-reacting anyways. But I am getting sick of other melee's saying we deserved this. Especially DRG. Yeah it sucks you cant get invites, but when I was leveling BST in Ifrits, I saw a DRG rape through all the Nightmare Bats in the area. You think a RNG will ever be able to kill even an EP in Ifrits? I think not. I pay 15-18k for a stack of bullets, and If I even see a DRG doing the same damage as me, I will retire RNG cause it isnt worth my money.

Edited, Wed Jul 20 20:52:33 2005 by Gellybluntz
#12 Jul 21 2005 at 1:23 AM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Quote:
Its all about your cash flow and equipment, just like any other melee job.


I seen people with tons of gil and great equipment and they still suck. It's the skill that affecting their performance and not equipment. It was said above that ninja's hate diminishes incredibly which is absolutely not true. I was spamming arrows nonstop and the ninja was able to keep hate. He even kept hate from a barrage. Ninjas were able to do this before the update and they are still able to do this now.


I played around with my ranger tonight and the update is not that bad. I found the spot I was supposed to stand in with a Master Caster's bow. You just have to keep shooting until you see where the right spot is.

I noticed my damage decrease as I went closer to the monster and also decrease as I got farther away from the "sweet spot" where my damage is at its best. Also noticed that my accuracy decreasing the farther back I went. Was missing simple weaponskills like Arching Arrow yet when I went up close I never missed a single one. Damage is absolutely pitiful if you decide to melee. I was doing about 60% of my normal damage.
#13 Jul 21 2005 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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104 posts
I XP'd for about 2 hours last night with friends.

NIN
RNG
RNG
WHM
BRD
BLM

I didnt notice any big difference in speed of kills. Just took a bit more planning and skill to position correctly. Actually made it more fun to have to think. :)

I kept hate well enough normally, only losing it to RNG WS but thats nothing new to me. Even testing with +17 emnity before the patch this was normal.

I use the debuffs but not the elementals.

I also macro in +6 emnity for provoke and wear +2 Emnity all the time (Arhats Sune-ate+1). +3 Emnity from merits also.

We still need to test on Gods etc. :)
#14 Jul 21 2005 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
I was levelign my whm today and had a nin tank. Boy it was tough cuz the ninja was only using utsemi and provoke and sometimes the poison ninjitsu at the begining of the battle. Let say that taru drk died 2xs cuz of his souleater attack and rdm once cuz of chainspell. Need a bit more skill to tank. Oh and I was hit more frequently as well but being elvann i can take a few hits ; p
#15 Jul 21 2005 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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99 posts
Quote:
Let say that taru drk died 2xs cuz of his souleater attack and rdm once cuz of chainspell. Need a bit more skill to tank.

Sounds more like your members need to learn about hate control.

Quote:
Its all about your cash flow and equipment, just like any other melee job. And knowing your job...

Dont know why you didnt quote the rest? We know already that you can have the best equip and still suck. That goes for everybody.

Edited, Thu Jul 21 07:08:42 2005 by Gellybluntz
#16 Jul 21 2005 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Was just referring to the part about your statement that was incorrect.

Edited, Thu Jul 21 10:16:41 2005 by Ayrilana
#17 Jul 21 2005 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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128 posts
Interesting to see everyone's reactions. I'm mainly concerned if I should worry about positioning myself for mistral axe now, since it's ranged =P Not that it ever does reliable damage...

I do disagree with the post saying it is logical that hate would go down from shadows being hit. I, for one, get extraordinarily frustrated when I keep whacking at a mob and see "X mob's shadow absorbs the damage and disappears" over and over. I should think that logically shadows would increase hate as the mob gets frustrated because it cannot hit you...but obviously SE thinks otherwise.
#18 Jul 21 2005 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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594 posts
That is a different way of looking at it that makes total sense as well. God knows what they were thinking.

I did test tanking out last night for about 3 hours. We were in Labrynth of Onzozo. Tormama's did die as fast and chains were easy to come by still. Hate control was a little harder. Blade: Jin is a god send though. I did lose hate on DRK WS's but got it back immediately. There was some bouncing around of the mob but all in all not very much. I use Utsusemi, Provoke, Blind and Slow. (para if I can fit it in first thing). Then I would MB but that was the extent of my NIN elemental tool use. I agree completely that Katanas just do more damage and increase hate better than Ninja elemental magic post 60.

We'll figure it out...the RNG's will stop ************** will be right in the world...for now^^


#19 Jul 21 2005 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Quote:
I should think that logically shadows would increase hate as the mob gets frustrated because it cannot hit you...but obviously SE thinks otherwise.


Shadows are in no way evasion. The mobs is hitting a shadow which abosrbs the damage and is used up. This means you lose hate just as a PLD were to if he got hit. Only difference is that the shadow took the damage and not you.
#20 Jul 21 2005 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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222 posts
But the mob is still not doing damage. Just as I realize that a mob's shadows are effectivly taking my damage and making it null and void, a mob realizes the same about my shadows. I think that a mob would get angrier over the shadows absorbing the damage, not decrease their hate. I know I get angry if a mob keeps on having shadows to absorb my hits... It's just my take on the logic of it, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with SE's choice to "nerf," but that I think logically shadows should make mobs madder.
#21 Jul 27 2005 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
46 posts
I do agree that logically, having a shadow get hit decreases your hate makes no sense.

Let's say for example that you're at a McDonald's, and right as you sit down with your Big Mac, Gilbert Gottfried comes up and slaps it out of your hands, and then proceeds to insult your mother in his comically annoying voice. These are, of course, fighting words, and you stand up to put a foot in his monkey ***. However, you discover, much to your frustration, that, when you swing at him, some mystical force creates shadowy illusionary comic actors that take the hit for him. This goes on for several minutes, and all the while he's running through his comedy routine and just ruining your morning. Naturally, the veins in your forehead start throbbing, and you shout:"Why the **** can't I hit you?!"

It's around this point that the police enter, and arrest you and Mr. Gottfried, but quickly release him.(I can't really blame them, you try riding in a squad car with that guy.)

Wait, what was my point? Oh yeah, that it's late and I'm abusing my internet after having it back for about 6 hours.
#22 Jul 27 2005 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
The big difference for rng is on kited mobs. In an xp pt, since the mob doesnt move (much) rng have time and ability to find the "sweet spot". What poses a problem is fights on Gods/Kirin, although this problem too can be easily fixed as we've found out. Although the days of rng pt are mostly over I think.
#23 Jul 27 2005 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
Quote:
Although the days of rng pt are mostly over I think.


Been in a ranger party before? I've been in one since the update and it still works. People who don't play ranger like to assume so much.
#24 Jul 27 2005 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
wow.... chill out... i said i "think" and no, Im not assuming anything, I've got 11 rangers in my LS i get my information from.
#25 Jul 27 2005 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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955 posts
I'm just annoyed that people assumes things when they're not even true. People assume rangers are gimped in EXP parties when they're not. Sure, you can't skillchain with anyone that was going to SATA off you but can you really say that SATA is necessary?
#26 Jul 29 2005 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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400 posts
I pted as a rng last night and was able to SC with a thf still. It is a little harder but you can do it. Slug shot Dancing edge. After I WS I would have to run up to the mob so the thf could SanTa so it is possible. The patch really just change the way rangers work. You can't play now and just spam bullets. Rng= skill now. I really like it makes you think and move around not just stand there and kill with one hand on the controler and the other in a bag a chips.



Edited, Fri Jul 29 11:08:49 2005 by Beefnutz
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