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Corporal Punishment RematchFollow

#27 Sep 25 2014 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think I heard a whoosh.
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#28 Sep 25 2014 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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#29 Sep 25 2014 at 5:11 PM Rating: Default
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#30 Sep 25 2014 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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#31 Sep 25 2014 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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I subscribe to the Denis Leary method of child rearing.

Sit on the couch watching **** with a burger on top of your erection?
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#32 Sep 25 2014 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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#33 Sep 26 2014 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless you classify a slight slap on the wrist, followed by a "no" as "physical assault", then you're just classifying activities that you disagree with as "physical assault".


I thought I'd been clear earlier, but let me reiterate.

You are *quite literally* too stupid for me to respond to. Good luck.
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#34 Sep 27 2014 at 1:28 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

Unless you classify a slight slap on the wrist, followed by a "no" as "physical assault", then you're just classifying activities that you disagree with as "physical assault".


I thought I'd been clear earlier, but let me reiterate.

You are *quite literally* too stupid for me to respond to. Good luck.


And yet you still do.Smiley: nod

#35 Sep 29 2014 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
IMO, that's the correct way to do it

There is no "correct way" to physically assault a small child.


But psychological assaults are perfectly fine? As physical creatures living in a physical world, we're already somewhat hardwired to avoid pain, so corporal punishment is a very straightforward method of punishment. The child associates bad behavior with something he's already hardwired to avoid. Done properly, there are no side effects, or secondary psychological associations that occur.

The bewildering array of alternatives are vastly more likely to ***** the hell with your child IMO. Once you get away from physical punishments, you get into the realm of punishments that act very differently based on the child and his own psychological makeup. When used during the early formation of said psychological makeup, you stand a very high probability of affecting that child's development in ways you cannot really predict. The result is screwed up kids.


I just think that the mantra of "physical is bad" is arbitrary, has very little actual evidence to support it, and is less about results and more about some kind of mass parenting psychosis caused almost certainly by "experts" who want to sell more parenting books. We assume corporal punishment is bad, condemn those who use it, but never stop to actually assess whether these assumptions are correct. And even when we do question them, it really does seem as though those who engaged in various studies of the issue have a strong starting position that spanking is bad, and tend to skew their data to show this. They'll make claims that their study accounted for how spanking was administered, but in their results, they'll include facts like this (from a study of violence and criminality among university students and spanking as a child):

"In most of the 15 nations, two-thirds of university students said they were hit when they were age 10, and among those who were hit, they said it typically was between once and twice a week. If university students were hit by only one parent, more often than not the mother was the parent carrying out the punishment."

Note, the use of the word "hit" rather than "spanked" (shows the authors bias, which is not the first time it shows up in just the abstract). Note also, that he's including data from kids who were spanked "typically between once and twice a week". Um... There's no way in hell any child is acting up so much that this level of spanking is required or desired. As I said earlier, I think I was spanked maybe 3 or 4 times in my entire childhood. If you're spanking your child multiple times a week, you're doing it wrong. Spanking only works if it's "rare". It should be the last resort punishment, but always available. When done this way (ie: "properly"), then the child learns to avoid escalating any thing they're doing to that point. It makes other forms of punishment or warnings work. If you're unwilling to spank, and the child knows it, they'll push the boundaries. If you go right to spanking every time, it will cease to be an effective punishment and just make the child hate their parents.


So, studies like this are basically "duh!", but fail to address the core point because they're looking only at the extreme. The question isn't whether you should spank your child every time they do something wrong (you shouldn't), but whether spanking should be in your toolbox of punishments you can and will administer to your child if/when it's needed. I believe that you have to ultimately have some form of physical punishment at the end of your punishment options list, specifically because it's something the child will seek to avoid and thus will make those farther up the list more effective. My position is not so much pro-spanking as anti-"no spanking ever".
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#36 Sep 30 2014 at 3:35 AM Rating: Decent
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But psychological assaults are perfectly fine? As physical creatures living in a physical world, we're already somewhat hardwired to avoid pain, so corporal punishment is a very straightforward method of punishment. The child associates bad behavior with something he's already hardwired to avoid. Done properly, there are no side effects, or secondary psychological associations that occur.


Based on what? There are zero studies that show no impact to corporal punishment. Zero. Apparently, no one on the planet manages to "do it properly".

I just think that the mantra of "physical is bad" is arbitrary, has very little actual evidence to support it

There is a massive amount of evidence to support it. It's *easily* one of the most studied subjects in child development for the last 100 years or so.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_sdt=1,5&q=corporal+punishment&hl=en

The question isn't whether you should spank your child every time they do something wrong (you shouldn't), but whether spanking should be in your toolbox of punishments you can and will administer to your child if/when it's needed. I believe that you have to ultimately have some form of physical punishment at the end of your punishment options list, specifically because it's something the child will seek to avoid and thus will make those farther up the list more effective.

Yeah, doesn't work. Not an effective means of moderating behavior. Also not a mystery. Should I have 'burning children with soldering irons" in "my toolkit"? I imagine they would seek to avoid it, hence meeting your criteria. It does sound more severe than "spanking" though. Wouldn't want that sort of unfair bias, let's call it "metal tickling."

Not that I think there is much risk of it, but please, for the sake of us all, father no children.

Edited, Sep 30th 2014 5:36am by Smasharoo
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#37 Sep 30 2014 at 3:50 AM Rating: Default
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so I'm slow. What exactly did I /whoosh?
#38 Sep 30 2014 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
so I'm slow. What exactly did I /whoosh?

Were you wearing corduroy pants?
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#39 Sep 30 2014 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But psychological assaults are perfectly fine?

I prefer to discipline via psionic assaults. A little psychic pain will teach you to put your laundry away...
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#40 Sep 30 2014 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But psychological assaults are perfectly fine?

I prefer to discipline via psionic assaults. A little psychic pain will teach you to put your laundry away...


A little mind-flaying goes a long way.
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#41 Sep 30 2014 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But psychological assaults are perfectly fine?

I prefer to discipline via psionic assaults. A little psychic pain will teach you to put your laundry away...


A little mind-flaying goes a long way.
Just nag.
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#42 Sep 30 2014 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
so I'm slow. What exactly did I /whoosh?
I don't know, I really wasn't paying attention. I just could pass up a golden opportunity to use the line.
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#43 Sep 30 2014 at 4:28 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
so I'm slow. What exactly did I /whoosh?
I don't know, I really wasn't paying attention. I just could pass up a golden opportunity to use the line.

Ok, I thought I somehow misinterpreted smashes view. So, I guess my point still stands that he's just making stuff up. Smiley: grin
#44 Sep 30 2014 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
so I'm slow. What exactly did I /whoosh?
I don't know, I really wasn't paying attention. I just could pass up a golden opportunity to use the line.

Ok, I thought I somehow misinterpreted smashes view. So, I guess my point still stands that he's just making stuff up. Smiley: grin
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Almalieque wrote:
Your allusion that spanking violates critical thinking is yet again personal beliefs that you're trying mask as facts.
Smash was saying spanking (gbaji says gbaji was spanked) causes the recipient of said spanking to lack critical thinking skills (qv gabji).

DUH
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#45 Sep 30 2014 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
What Adrian Peterson did was wrong, spanking your child usually isn't.

/thread
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#46 Sep 30 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I just think that the mantra of "physical is bad" is arbitrary, has very little actual evidence to support it

There is a massive amount of evidence to support it. It's *easily* one of the most studied subjects in child development for the last 100 years or so.


Nope. There's a massive amount of evidence showing that there's a prevailing opinion among a smallish number of experts that spanking is bad (we're seriously talking about 4 or 5 people, who are then quoted by dozens more). But very little actual evidence that once you strip away the "hitting children while angry" element, that spanking causes any greater psychological harm to children than any other form of punishment or discipline. Your point about it being one of the most studied subjects also doesn't support what you think it does. The fact that it is so studied just means that it's so studied. It's wrong to assume that because we study something a lot that it must be significant (or more so than other things we might study).

If we spent as much time studying the negative effects of "time outs" as a form of discipline, you'd be able to make the same fallacious argument about time outs. It's circular.

Quote:
Yeah, doesn't work. Not an effective means of moderating behavior.


Wrong. Even those most opposed to spanking acknowledge that it's arguably the best method of moderating behavior in the short term. The studies all focus on the longer term effects. But good job once again showing us how good you are at being wrong.

Edited, Sep 30th 2014 4:16pm by gbaji
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#47 Sep 30 2014 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Nope. There's a massive amount of evidence showing that there's a prevailing opinion among a smallish number of experts that spanking is bad (we're seriously talking about 4 or 5 people, who are then quoted by dozens more). But very little actual evidence that once you strip away the "hitting children while angry" element, that spanking causes any greater psychological harm to children than any other form of punishment or discipline. Your point about it being one of the most studied subjects also doesn't support what you think it does.


In fact, it does. It's amazing, but it's almost like the guy with the PhD in Sociology knows more about child development than a fucking help desk drone.

Who would have guessed! We have completed our discourse on this subject. I'd pretend it was Socratic, but it was more akin to begging an adult not to **** on the table of a restaurant even though he's certain it's a good idea.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#48 Sep 30 2014 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But very little actual evidence that once you strip away the "hitting children while angry" element, that spanking causes any greater psychological harm to children than any other form of punishment or discipline.


That's honestly about as generous as any support gets when studied. That should be enough right there. I've seen no research suggesting that it's in any way beneficial and that AT BEST it's not always the cause of long term psychological harm. Well what a selling point. "Some of the research has shown that I'm probably not causing serious long term damage and behavioral problems...good enough for me!"

Nexa
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#49 Sep 30 2014 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure. Find me a single study that has examined the effectiveness (both long and short term) of spanking used in precisely the manner I described earlier in this thread. Can't do it, right? The experts are intentionally studying forms/uses of corporal punishment that pretty much everyone already agrees is wrong and shouldn't be done. So, as I said earlier: Duh. How about studying something useful for a change?

Or, if the point is "this form of corporal punishment doesn't work", then people need to stop arguing that all this research proves that the form I mentioned earlier doesn't work and does more harm than good in the long term. Because, wait for it... it doesn't. It shows that when you spank kids frequently, it does more harm than good in the long term. And when you spank kinds while angry and in the heat of the moment, it does more harm than good in the long term. Again: Duh.

How about we commission a study to determine if getting drunk and beating your kids has a detrimental effect on them? Lol!

Edited, Sep 30th 2014 6:30pm by gbaji
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#50 Sep 30 2014 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure. Find me a single study that has examined the effectiveness (both long and short term) of spanking used in precisely the manner I described earlier in this thread. Can't do it, right?

Nexa claims I can't post because she's signed in here at our media PC.

So, fiddlesticks to you, sir. Fiddlesticks.

Nexa.
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#51 Sep 30 2014 at 10:24 PM Rating: Default
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Bijou wrote:
Smash was saying spanking (gbaji says gbaji was spanked) causes the recipient of said spanking to lack critical thinking skills (qv gabji).

DUH


I see. As everyone knows that I'm quick to admit in being wrong, but you do see how my statement is still accurate and relevant right? Your "/whoosh" would have been more appropriate if there were a general misunderstanding in position. Which is why I asked again, since I was accurate on his position. Take a minute to figure that out and I'll see how "dense" YOU really are.
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