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#27 Oct 03 2014 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Nexa wrote:
Stupid, stupid, stupid - one for each of them.

Nexa


You are not allowed to blame the victim. Never the victim's fault.

Specially a child victim. Poor kid.
I hope on some level he at least feels kind of stupid, or maybe has some guilt or something behind the boasting and whatnot. Assuming he was the one pushing for this to happen, getting two of your teachers arrested and making them lose their jobs and such should make someone feel at least a little bad you'd think. If not he's going to be one messed up person in a few years. I mean, if he has no remorse what does that say about how he views women?

Then again I suppose that probably be considering him an adult, which doesn't seem to be the case at least legally in this instance. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 10:05am by someproteinguy
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#28 Oct 03 2014 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to shoot from the hip and guess that the two instructors had a previous out-of-work relationship of some sort (partying or something) and brought the kid into it. Either that or the kid has X-Men level mental control powers to not only seduce his instructor but also say "Hey, us banging would be great but it's be MORE great with more teachers... at once!"

Anyway, a couple noteworthy points from the Smoking Gun...
Quote:
Kenner police charged Dufresne with the same three counts as Respess. Investigators allege that the threesome at Respess’s apartment began on the evening of September 12 and continued into the following morning (Dufresne turned 32 on September 12).

A whole night of teacher bangin'! Also, "Happy Birthday" to Dufresne! Hell of a birthday party...
Quote:
He added that investigators are seeking additional evidence, an apparent reference to photos that were reportedly taken during the sex session.

Know what would make our illegal sex-with-minors birthday party even better? Child porn!

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 12:08pm by Jophiel
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#29 Oct 03 2014 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I hope on some level he at least feels kind of stupid, or maybe has some guilt or something behind the boasting and whatnot. Assuming he was the one pushing for this to happen, getting two of your teachers arrested and making them lose their jobs and such should make someone feel at least a little bad you'd think. If not he's going to be one messed up person in a few years. I mean, if he has no remorse what does that say about how he views women?


Do you think female students should feel bad about getting their male teachers arrested and jobs lost when they have sex with them?

Why does it matter if he was the one that pushed for it to happen or not? Why does the child have to be the responsible one because he was a male? Isn't that the whole idea behind the laws? Regardless of whether or not they can physically say yes and preform, they don't have the mental ability to understand what it actually means to consent. And how does this in any way reflect on how he views women? If he respected women he would have kept his mouth shut about it? That doesn't make much sense. He's a kid who thought with his *****, because he knows little else about it at that age. If the opportunity had risen when I was his age I probably wouldn't have thought to myself "No, I shouldn't do this, those poor women will get in trouble."
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#30 Oct 03 2014 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Assuming he was the one pushing for this to happen, getting two of your teachers arrested and making them lose their jobs and such should make someone feel at least a little bad you'd think.
Two adults, teachers no less, are caught having sex with a minor, a student no less. Why should the kid feel bad?

Was he just asking for it with those seductive baggy pants?


edit: What Tirith said. Smiley: glare



Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 7:24pm by Elinda
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#31 Oct 03 2014 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Do you think female students should feel bad about getting their male teachers arrested and jobs lost when they have *** with them?

Well, obviously. You can't have a good slut-shaming without the shame. Otherwise you just have shameless teenage sluts running around. And you'll just have to trust me that, until they've earned their "barely legal" credentials, this is a bad thing.
Quote:
He's a kid who thought with his *****, because he knows little else about it at that age

With his Nazi? Damn Nazis... Smiley: mad

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 12:34pm by Jophiel
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#32 Oct 03 2014 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Equality should see to it that this kid gets his fair share of slut-shame.

Edit: Filter this Google..
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Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 7:37pm by Elinda
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#33 Oct 03 2014 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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He got his fair share of sluts. That's gotta be worth something.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#34 Oct 03 2014 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hey did you notice the filter is no longer just 4 stars? That's an improvement, I guess. Not sure if it still consumes punctuation and markup tags.

*****.

Quote:
*****


Guess that works. Plus the original words appear in the edit and quote fields. Much better.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 1:41pm by TirithRR
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#35 Oct 03 2014 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
I hope on some level he at least feels kind of stupid, or maybe has some guilt or something behind the boasting and whatnot. Assuming he was the one pushing for this to happen, getting two of your teachers arrested and making them lose their jobs and such should make someone feel at least a little bad you'd think. If not he's going to be one messed up person in a few years. I mean, if he has no remorse what does that say about how he views women?


Do you think female students should feel bad about getting their male teachers arrested and jobs lost when they have *** with them?
Yes.

I think if anyone does something that results in someone else getting arrested for it they should feel bad about it. Guilt, saying "that was stupid," etc. would be a normal human response to something like that. Yes, you go the "it's not your fault, they took advantage of you," route when you're talking to a victim afterwards, of course you do. There's also difference between legally responsible for something and being able to see your actions caused harm, of course. But if your response to getting your two teachers arrested is a remorseless "I'm awesome" there's something not quite right in the head.

I mean as a result of something you did someone else's life was ruined. Why wouldn't you feel bad? Think of a child whose parents got divorced, they're not responsible for it, but it's perfectly normal for them to feel guilty or partly responsible for the break up. You'll work to convince them otherwise, but the emotion is a natural reaction.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 10:48am by someproteinguy
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#36 Oct 03 2014 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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It now also leaves the original word intact when you edit your own posts so it's easier to break. I'm not sure if that's a feature or a bug.
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Belkira wrote:
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#37 Oct 03 2014 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Edit: Filter this Google..
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#38 Oct 03 2014 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Why does it matter if he was the one that pushed for it to happen or not? Why does the child have to be the responsible one because he was a male? Isn't that the whole idea behind the laws? Regardless of whether or not they can physically say yes and preform, they don't have the mental ability to understand what it actually means to consent. And how does this in any way reflect on how he views women? If he respected women he would have kept his mouth shut about it? That doesn't make much sense. He's a kid who thought with his *****, because he knows little else about it at that age. If the opportunity had risen when I was his age I probably wouldn't have thought to myself "No, I shouldn't do this, those poor women will get in trouble."


Personally, I find using the label "child" when speaking of a 16 year old a bit questionable (or at least overly broad). We're not talking about a 5 year old here. He's 16. Also, I have to totally disagree with the whole "don't have the mental ability to understand what it means to consent" bit. That's a complete social construct of our own modern (more or less messed up) society. For most of human history a 16 year old was considered an adult, expected to act as an adult, and likely was already a parent and employed in the work force. We coddle the hell out of our teens, making them wait a ridiculous amount of time before giving them any responsibility or allowing them to participate in adult society.

They're not immature because of any sort of biological or natural development potential limitations. They're immature because we force them to be.

Just a pet peeve of mine.

Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Edit: Filter this Google..
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Crap! You owe me a new keyboard.
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#39 Oct 03 2014 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
They're not immature because of any sort of biological or natural development potential limitations.

No, they're definitely immature from a biological standpoint. For most of human history, we just didn't care.

Most notably, the areas of the brain that evaluate risk vs reward aren't fully developed yet. Which is why, you know, teenagers can be convinced to do a lot of dumb shit. Emotional centers aren't developed yet either which is why, you know, every six day relationship ends with heartbreak and bad poetry. Both of these just might factor into why educators shouldn't be having relationships with teenage students as though said students were fully developed adults.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 5:32pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
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#40 Oct 03 2014 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Personally, I find using the label "child" when speaking of a 16 year old a bit questionable (or at least overly broad). We're not talking about a 5 year old here. He's 16. Also, I have to totally disagree with the whole "don't have the mental ability to understand what it means to consent" bit

Still under the age of consent. Assumably, I have not looked up the age of consent of the State in question, but I imagine that if it were 16 then there wouldn't be much of a legal issue with a 16 year old having sex with an adult, right? I don't think many States exist these days with 16 as an unrestricted age of consent.

gbaji wrote:
That's a complete social construct of our own modern (more or less messed up) society. For most of human history a 16 year old was considered an adult, expected to act as an adult, and likely was already a parent and employed in the work force. We coddle the **** out of our teens, making them wait a ridiculous amount of time before giving them any responsibility or allowing them to participate in adult society.

They're not immature because of any sort of biological or natural development potential limitations. They're immature because we force them to be.


Then I guess you have a time machine and can go back in time 10 years and start teaching this boy at the age of 6 what society was like in the 1800s and training him to be ready for work and life outside of childhood by his early teens so he can be developed mentally to the point where were he could make informed choices?

Ya, some time ago people would get married and/or start families at younger ages, and the main reason they aren't now is because society has changed and children are no longer forced to grow up as soon as they were prior. But that's why I said "Mental" and not "Biological" or "Physical". I remember High School. Kids, even though they were very into and prepared for sex, had very little concept of the actual consequences of it. 10th grade girls could still be heard saying in the hallway to their friends "Oh come on, it's just one time, it's not like you are going to get pregnant." even after yearly sexual education classes from 4th grade on that stated the exact opposite.

But that's what medicine and abortions are for, right?

Jophiel wrote:
No, they're definitely immature from a biological standpoint. For most of human history, we just didn't care.

Most notably, the areas of the brain that evaluate risk vs reward aren't fully developed yet. Which is why, you know, teenagers can be convinced to do a lot of dumb shit. Emotional centers aren't developed yet either which is why, you know, every six day relationship ends with heartbreak and bad poetry. Both of these just might factor into why educators shouldn't be having relationships with teenage students as though said students were fully developed adults.


I think I listened to a story on that on the radio a month or so ago.

I was thinking more along the lines of "My penis works, but my brain isn't prepared to understand how this all works within society."

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 6:55pm by TirithRR
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#41 Oct 03 2014 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Personally, I find using the label "child" when speaking of a 16 year old a bit questionable (or at least overly broad). We're not talking about a 5 year old here. He's 16. Also, I have to totally disagree with the whole "don't have the mental ability to understand what it means to consent" bit

Still under the age of consent. Assumably, I have not looked up the age of consent of the State in question, but I imagine that if it were 16 then there wouldn't be much of a legal issue with a 16 year old having *** with an adult, right? I don't think many States exist these days with 16 as an unrestricted age of consent.

You'd be surprised. However, being this happened in Louisiana, actually illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#State_laws

I know it's Wiki, but still.
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#42 Oct 03 2014 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Even in states with a lower AoC, there's usually separate laws prohibiting relations between students and instructors due to the authority relationship involved. In Illinois anyway, a teacher can't even legally sleep with an 18 year old student.
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#43 Oct 03 2014 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Even in states with a lower AoC, there's usually separate laws prohibiting relations between students and instructors due to the authority relationship involved. In Illinois anyway, a teacher can't even legally sleep with an 18 year old student.


Ya, Michigan is 16. And I didn't know it but according to the Wiki it's 18 if the adult is in a position of authority.

Interestingly enough I never heard of this one:
F*ck it, you guys don't get to see the url cause it has both page and get inside it and url shorteners are filtered.

Tried to make it illegal regardless of the age of the student. Looks like it never even got voted on by the House. I understand the "protect our children" angle but... would it really be right to stop a 19 year old and 25 year old from having sex just because one is a teacher and the other is a student? Seems like it'd be easier to go after the specific methods in the cases used as examples of why it was needed. Seducing and grooming a young student so that the moment they turn 18 they can get legally f*cked. There's got to be an easy way to make that illegal if that's what they are really after.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 7:22pm by TirithRR
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#44 Oct 03 2014 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Tried to make it illegal regardless of the age of the student. Looks like it never even got voted on by the House. I understand the "protect our children" angle but... would it really be right to stop a 19 year old and 25 year old from having *** just because one is a teacher and the other is a student?

Right? Not sure what that means. Idiotic? Yes. Should be an ethics issue for the teacher, or a licensing issue with the state. A criminal offense is wildly overbroad. I imagine it's very rarely prosecuted.
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#45 Oct 03 2014 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Tried to make it illegal regardless of the age of the student. Looks like it never even got voted on by the House. I understand the "protect our children" angle but... would it really be right to stop a 19 year old and 25 year old from having *** just because one is a teacher and the other is a student?

Right? Not sure what that means. Idiotic? Yes. Should be an ethics issue for the teacher, or a licensing issue with the state. A criminal offense is wildly overbroad. I imagine it's very rarely prosecuted.


It looks like it almost unanimously passed the senate, but never got voted on in the House. So as is, it looks like AoC is 18 for hot Teacher on Coed action. Yes, there are still multiple ways for her to get an A in Mr. Johnson's class.
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#46 Oct 03 2014 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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In the immortal words of Dr. Geller, it is "very strongly frowned upon".
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#47 Oct 03 2014 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
They're not immature because of any sort of biological or natural development potential limitations.

No, they're definitely immature from a biological standpoint. For most of human history, we just didn't care.

Most notably, the areas of the brain that evaluate risk vs reward aren't fully developed yet. Which is why, you know, teenagers can be convinced to do a lot of dumb shit. Emotional centers aren't developed yet either which is why, you know, every six day relationship ends with heartbreak and bad poetry. Both of these just might factor into why educators shouldn't be having relationships with teenage students as though said students were fully developed adults.



Um... Ok. Relatively immature, Mr Pedant.

The amount of maturity does not appreciably increase between the age of 16 and 18. And I'd argue strongly that we create more immaturity in that age range with our coddling social rules and restrictions than we'd experience naturally as a result of physical development differences.
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#48 Oct 03 2014 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Both sides are right. We don't mature as early now because there is no need for it. Society can afford to coddle children for longer now so we don't grow up as fast. I moved out at 14, I've seen the difference. Biologically we are not fully "mature" until later in life but historically the bulk of your life was spent "maturing" so that's a very weak argument past puberty.

That being said the combination of societal norms and biological expediency has generally decided that 18 is an adult because you can probably think past next week by then but 14-16 year olds are probably ok bangin' people around their own age that aren't, you know, their boss or something because they're going to do it anyway and arresting kids sucks.
#49 Oct 03 2014 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Relatively immature, Mr Pedant.

No pedantry there, you were just wrong. Your little spiel was that a 16 year old was an adult and not immature except via modern society. You're wrong. Society is just starting to catch up to the reality of biology.
Quote:
The amount of maturity does not appreciably increase between the age of 16 and 18.

This would be a better argument for prohibiting relationships between 25 and 18 year olds than it is for allowing them between 25 and 16 year olds. I'm not advocating for such but saying "the undeveloped brain of a 16 year old is close enough to the undeveloped brain of an 18 year old" makes no sense.
Quote:
And I'd argue strongly that we create more immaturity in that age range with our coddling social rules and restrictions than we'd experience naturally as a result of physical development differences.

Yeah, yeah. Weep for the good old days when this kid would have already lost an arm in a thresher at age 12 and had three children by age 15 and died in a labor riot at age 22. Boy, the way Glenn Miller played...

Actually, for the last century and change, the average age for a male to marry in the United States has been in his early to mid 20's and women not much younger. Maybe Gbaji is pining for the days of 1550 AD or something, who knows...
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#50 Oct 03 2014 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Both sides are right. We don't mature as early now because there is no need for it. Society can afford to coddle children for longer now so we don't grow up as fast. I moved out at 14, I've seen the difference. Biologically we are not fully "mature" until later in life but historically the bulk of your life was spent "maturing" so that's a very weak argument past puberty.


Absolutely. That was the point I was trying to get across. By coddling our teens, we delay the rate at which they mature. A 16 year old today is much less mature than a 16 year old from a century ago. And 18 year old is less mature than an 18 year old a century ago. A 25 year old is less mature today than a 25 year old a century ago. We're retarding their social maturity rate and then being surprised when they do immature and stupid things. Worse, our reaction seems to be to further delay the point at which we expect them to take on adult responsibilities (re: ACA allowing dependents to receive their parents health benefits to age 26).

Quote:
That being said the combination of societal norms and biological expediency has generally decided that 18 is an adult because you can probably think past next week by then but 14-16 year olds are probably ok bangin' people around their own age that aren't, you know, their boss or something because they're going to do it anyway and arresting kids sucks.


Eh. It's basically an arbitrary age (from a maturity standpoint) almost certainly foisted on us because of the creation of a standardized K-12 education system and the desire to keep "school age kids" out of the workforce until they graduate. So we can thank Horace Mann for the fact that we declare people to be adults at age 18 I guess.
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#51 Oct 03 2014 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
That being said the combination of societal norms and biological expediency has generally decided that 18 is an adult because you can probably think past next week by then

Well, we lowered the voting age to 18 from 21 in 1971 because we drafted kids at 18 and there was enough argument that if they were going to die for our country, they should get a vote. For most of our history, you weren't really considered an adult until 21. For that matter, for much of the last century, if you were an unmarried white male, you were probably living with your parents still (and again the average age of marriage was 22-24). The whole schtick of turning 18 and setting off on your own as a fully functional independent member of society is a post WWII construction brought on by the boom in jobs and housing.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2014 8:46pm by Jophiel
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