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Because the first decade of war wasn't enough.Follow

#1 Nov 11 2014 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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While I respect those who fight for our country and certainly agree with remembering those who sacrificed themselves for our protection, those who risk their lives, and those who support them I'm not as enamoured with the decision making of those who command them.

Why are we anywhere near Iraq...oh, right, because the US is there and Harper is a damn conservative puppet trying to capitalize on a poor soldier's tragic but completely unrelated death.
#2 Nov 11 2014 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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I think we're hitting closer to a quarter century of cluster****ing Iraq at this point.
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#3 Nov 11 2014 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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You guys know you can't have everyone like you right? Sometimes you might have to do things that make some people angry. Smiley: rolleyes

But more seriously I'm meh on why we're even there in the first place, much less you guys. I mean you have you're own oil right, or at least once you clean the sand off of it. I assume we bribed you with something so we can say something like "We have a coalition!" and try and make the whole thing sound more legitimate.
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#4 Nov 11 2014 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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We sell all of our oil to the US and then by gas from you. S M R T we are so SM(a)RT!
#5 Nov 11 2014 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?" and suffering an epic lack of imagination as to the possible answers. I suppose we could ditto that with regard to sitting on the fence on the Syrian civil war too. Sometimes (a lot of the time) allowing concerns about whether people will like what we do to drive foreign policy is worse than just picking a direction and sticking with it. I'd actually argue strongly that a good portion of the problems in the ME stem directly with the West's vacillating political approach to the region. We meddle just enough to **** people off, then get so concerned we're pissing people off that we back out without realizing that now we're pissing off the people we initially meddled to help. Result is pissing off even more people.


Any consistent policy would be better IMO.
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#6 Nov 11 2014 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?" and suffering an epic lack of imagination as to the possible answers.
Yeah, Bush Jr was real stupid making that decision.
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#7 Nov 11 2014 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of thousands of years of people stabbing each other with pointy things.
Smiley: nod
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#8 Nov 11 2014 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tbh, we need to let the borders sort themselves out. The region is going to be a shitshow until then.
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#9 Nov 11 2014 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?" and suffering an epic lack of imagination as to the possible answers.
Yeah, Bush Jr was real stupid making that decision.


Yeah. Obama was real stupid for not understanding the difference between face saving and actual policy. He was literally the only person on the planet who didn't get that no one actually expected or wanted the US to fully pull out of Iraq, for more or less the exact reasons we're now seeing happen.
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#10 Nov 11 2014 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?" and suffering an epic lack of imagination as to the possible answers.
Yeah, Bush Jr was real stupid making that decision.
Yeah.
I guess we're done here.
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#11 Nov 11 2014 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?" and suffering an epic lack of imagination as to the possible answers.
Yeah, Bush Jr was real stupid making that decision.


Yeah. Obama was real stupid for not understanding the difference between face saving and actual policy. He was literally the only person on the planet who didn't get that no one actually expected or wanted the US to fully pull out of Iraq, for more or less the exact reasons we're now seeing happen.


Right, which is why the Iraqis couldn't wrangle a SOFA in order to keep a stronger presence.
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#12 Nov 11 2014 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Tbh, we need to let the borders sort themselves out. The region is going to be a shitshow until then.
I'm not that optimistic. Just when you think it's all settled there'll be a drought or something and it all will start up again, then they'll run out of oil and all hell will break loose. Heaven help us if they ever find something else to argue about.

Edited, Nov 11th 2014 3:55pm by someproteinguy
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#13 Nov 11 2014 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Yeah. Obama was real stupid for not understanding the difference between face saving and actual policy. He was literally the only person on the planet who didn't get that no one actually expected or wanted the US to fully pull out of Iraq, for more or less the exact reasons we're now seeing happen.


Right, which is why the Iraqis couldn't wrangle a SOFA in order to keep a stronger presence.


Huh? The SOFA was always about saving face for the Iraqi government because they didn't want to look like they were weak and couldn't maintain control of their own country without help. The reality? Everyone knew that the Iraqi government actually was weak and couldn't maintain control of their own country without help. Bush got this. Obama did not. It was assumed that the US would push for an extension down the road, and that the Iraq government would allow it (under protest of course) because that was what both parties actually knew needed to happen to maintain security within Iraq while keeping the more radical folks at bay.

Sadly, Obama actually was part of the radical anti-war side in the US, and made no effort to extend the agreement and instead withdrew US troops right on schedule. And we all know how well that worked out, don't we?
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#14 Nov 11 2014 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The reality? Everyone knew that the Iraqi government actually was weak and couldn't maintain control of their own country without help. Bush got this.
He got it so well, in reality, that he spearheaded the negotiation to return control of the country. The flaw in your argument is that, for whatever reason, the "reality" you're using in your arguments isn't this dimension.
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#15 Nov 11 2014 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The reality? Everyone knew that the Iraqi government actually was weak and couldn't maintain control of their own country without help. Bush got this.
He got it so well, in reality, that he spearheaded the negotiation to return control of the country.


Um... The negotiation was to retain troops in Iraq. The alternative was being booted out "now". The SOFA was protested by anti-US factions in Iraq because it allowed US troops to remain in the country. You could at least try to show some understanding of the issue. Once the Iraq government was established, the US had no remaining legal authority to operate in the country without the Iraqi government's approval. The SOFA was that approval. It's worded as a withdrawal date, because that's how it had to be worded, but the actual withdrawal date was always intended to be extended as needed.

Every reasonably savvy person saw this as the face saving measure that it was. Well, except Obama. Although I suppose it's possible that he did know, but choose to ignore it because he just didn't care about consequences in the region if it meant bending to the anti-war folks here at home. In either case, the fault for what is going on in Iraq right now is 100% Obama's.

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The flaw in your argument is that, for whatever reason, the "reality" you're using in your arguments isn't this dimension.


That's some serious projection you got going on there.
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#16 Nov 11 2014 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Um... The negotiation was to retain troops in Iraq.
No it wasn't, but I'm sure if you say it enough times you'll find the right dimension it was.
gbaji wrote:
That's some serious projection you got going on there.
Just like screaming "misogynist!" a random label doesn't actually work to distract people from your own failings, sweety.

Edited, Nov 11th 2014 8:57pm by lolgaxe
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#17 Nov 12 2014 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:


Why are we anywhere near Iraq...oh, right, because the US is there and Harper is a **** conservative puppet trying to capitalize on a poor soldier's tragic but completely unrelated death.
You're an oil exporter now. It's time you started acting like one.

You have to do your share of the war-mongering.

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#18 Nov 12 2014 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Ironically, the current problem in Iraq is the direct result of the US basically saying "what's the worse that could happen if we just pull out of Iraq now instead of waiting longer?

Yes, definitely, that. Not the needless invasion that destabilized the entire region, about which at the time I said "this will destabilize the region" and you said "this will stabilize the region."

It's almost as if the subject matter expert was better at predicting outcomes than a fucking help desk worker.

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#19 Nov 12 2014 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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We probably should have bombed Syria more. I imagine that was probably the issue here.
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#20 Nov 12 2014 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
It's worded as a withdrawal date, because that's how it had to be worded, but the actual withdrawal date was always intended to be extended as needed.

Please explain to me why it had to be worded that way as opposed to remaining there pending approval of the new government.
#21 Nov 12 2014 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
We probably should have bombed Syria more. I imagine that was probably the issue here.


I'm concerned that we may have missed some weddings.

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#22 Nov 12 2014 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Please explain to me why it had to be worded that way as opposed to remaining there pending approval of the new government.

Because Bush.
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#23 Nov 13 2014 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Please explain to me why it had to be worded that way as opposed to remaining there pending approval of the new government.

Because Bush.

Funny thing about that, I bet he's all for removing the ACA's subsidies because on the wording and not the intent.
#24 Nov 13 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
We probably should have bombed Syria more. I imagine that was probably the issue here.


I'm concerned that we may have missed some weddings.



They started getting invited to US weddings.
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#25 Nov 13 2014 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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We could do a little better disguising them.
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#26 Nov 18 2014 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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I'm just saying.. it wasn't the US president who told Putin to his face to get out to Ukraine...(for whatever that is worth). I guess it's not Canadian airspace that Russia has began patrolling?
What concerns me about Russia is that they just signed a deal for nuclear reactors (for peaceful energy purposes) and at the same time their Supreme Leader issues Tweets entitled "How and Why we should destroy Israel".
This pretty much cements an upcoming conflict between Israel and Russia... since apparently the US suddenly believes these flagrant bigots..
Also.. yeah the close we get to bombing Damascus.. there is more conflict with Russia.
not to mention: Isaiah 17
17 The burden of Damascus. Lo, Damascus is taken away from [being] a city, And it hath been a heap -- a ruin.

2 Forsaken are the cities of Aroer, For droves they are, and they have lain down, And there is none troubling.

3 And ceased hath the fortress from Ephraim, And the kingdom from Damascus, And the remnant of Aram are as the honour of the sons of Israel, The affirmation of Jehovah of Hosts!

4 And it hath come to pass, in that day, Wax poor doth the honour of Jacob, And the fatness of his flesh doth wax lean.

5 And it hath come to pass, As the gathering by the reaper of the standing corn, And his arm the ears reapeth, And it hath come to pass, As the gathering of the ears in the valley of Rephaim,

6 And left in him have been gleanings, As the compassing of an olive, Two -- three berries on the top of a branch, Four -- five on the fruitful boughs, The affirmation of Jehovah, God of Israel!

7 In that day doth man look to His Maker, Yea, his eyes to the Holy One of Israel look,

8 And he looketh not unto the altars. The work of his own hands, And that which his own fingers made He seeth not -- the shrines and the images.

9 In that day are the cities of his strength As the forsaken thing of the forest, And the branch that they have left, Because of the sons of Israel, It also hath been a desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, And the rock of thy strength hast not remembered, Therefore thou plantest plants of pleasantness, And with a strange slip sowest it,

11 In the day thy plant thou causest to become great, And in the morning thy seed makest to flourish, A heap [is] the harvest in a day of overflowing, And of mortal pain.

12 Wo [to] the multitude of many peoples, As the sounding of seas they sound; And [to] the wasting of nations, As the wasting of mighty waters they are wasted.

13 Nations as the wasting of many waters are wasted, And He hath pushed against it, And it hath fled afar off, And been pursued as chaff of hills before wind, And as a rolling thing before a hurricane.


14 At even-time, lo, terror, before morning it is not, This [is] the portion of our spoilers, And the lot of our plunderers!
Smiley: wink
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