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#252 Jul 24 2016 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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I deeply regret that my insensitive, emotional emails would cause embarrassment to the DNC, the Chairwoman, and all of the staffers who worked hard to make the primary a fair and open process. The comments expressed do not reflect my beliefs nor do they reflect the beliefs of the DNC and its employees. I apologize to those I offended.


10/10.
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#253 Jul 24 2016 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
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Angrymnk wrote:
Remarks such as these force me to question your intelligence. Are you really arguing that politician's perceived piety level is not an issue for electorate? Really?
No, I'm saying nothing in those emails had any effect on people actually voting. "The system is rigged" was the rallying call for Sanders supporters. So, if anything, their actions united them.
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#254 Jul 24 2016 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Angrymnk wrote:
Remarks such as these force me to question your intelligence. Are you really arguing that politician's perceived piety level is not an issue for electorate? Really?
No, I'm saying nothing in those emails had any effect on people actually voting. "The system is rigged" was the rallying call for Sanders supporters. So, if anything, their actions united them.


Please elaborate then, because I am genuinely struggling to understand what you are trying to say. I do not want you to claim I misrepresented your words.
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#255 Jul 24 2016 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
I deeply regret that my insensitive, emotional emails would cause embarrassment to the DNC, the Chairwoman, and all of the staffers who worked hard to make the primary a fair and open process. The comments expressed do not reflect my beliefs nor do they reflect the beliefs of the DNC and its employees. I apologize to those I offended.


10/10.


Translation: My words do not mean what society agreed those words mean. Also, I am a special snowflake and no one at DNC is like me - they is good people, trust me.


Still, nice, bland speech.
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#256 Jul 24 2016 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:

Please elaborate then, because I am genuinely struggling to understand what you are trying to say. I do not want you to claim I misrepresented your words.
The thought that the DNC had rigged the election is the biggest thing that motivated Sanders voters to go out and vote. So, emails that showed key leaders favoring Clinton over Sanders had no effect on the outcome of the race. The biggest blow (attacking his faith) didn't even happen (to my knowledge).
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#257 Jul 24 2016 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

Please elaborate then, because I am genuinely struggling to understand what you are trying to say. I do not want you to claim I misrepresented your words.
The thought that the DNC had rigged the election is the biggest thing that motivated Sanders voters to go out and vote. So, emails that showed key leaders favoring Clinton over Sanders had no effect on the outcome of the race. The biggest blow (attacking his faith) didn't even happen (to my knowledge).


Oooooh.. I understand now. You are under impression that Sander's vote was all about 'rigged system'. I think you really do not appreciate the electorate's anger. This lack of understanding might put DT in da house.
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#258 Jul 24 2016 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
For the record, I am all for it. I want both Rs and Ds to fail, disband, and fall into obscurity.

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?
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#259 Jul 24 2016 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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#260 Jul 24 2016 at 1:01 PM Rating: Default
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angrymnk wrote:

Oooooh.. I understand now. You are under impression that Sander's vote was all about 'rigged system'. I think you really do not appreciate the electorate's anger. This lack of understanding might put DT in da house.
What? I said that thought of a rigged system helped him more than it hurt him because it supported the electorate's anger.

Jophiel wrote:

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?
This. People are quick to ignore our role in all of this. We elect these people, even when their approval rating is in the single digits.
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#261 Jul 24 2016 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

Oooooh.. I understand now. You are under impression that Sander's vote was all about 'rigged system'. I think you really do not appreciate the electorate's anger. This lack of understanding might put DT in da house.
What? I said that thought of a rigged system helped him more than it hurt him because it supported the electorate's anger.

Jophiel wrote:

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?
This. People are quick to ignore our role in all of this. We elect these people, even when their approval rating is in the single digits.


Their approval rating is low because for a host of structural reasons candidates are elected with minority public support.
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#262 Jul 24 2016 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not even speaking of the role of the American voter or whatever. I'm just saying that the effect of a two-party system is that, when one party breaks down, it still reforms into something similar to its previous form. The Whig party broke into the Republican party and the Know-Nothing party, with the KN party soon splintering again with most of it joining into the Republicans. But the Republican party of 1856 wasn't dramatically different from the previous Whig party (or, in ways that it was, it was primarily to counterpoint the Democratic party).

If you think the American political system will be much different in 2034 with the newly minted Republican-Nationalist Party and the Neo-Progressive Party, you haven't paid much attention to the past.

Edited, Jul 24th 2016 2:41pm by Jophiel
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#263 Jul 24 2016 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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TLW wrote:
Their approval rating is low because for a host of structural reasons candidates are elected with minority public support.
They are low because people are ignorant. They blame the president for local government issues and uncontrollable issues. People vote against their interest and refuse to acknowledge any good from the other party. They want politicians to be honest, but then attack them for not fitting a mold. When the politicians bend to fit the mold, then they are called flip floppers.
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#264 Jul 24 2016 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm not even speaking of the role of the American voter or whatever. I'm just saying that the effect of a two-party system is that, when one party breaks down, it still reforms into something similar to its previous form. The Whig party broke into the Republican party and the Know-Nothing party, with the KN party soon splintering again with most of it joining into the Republicans. But the Republican party of 1856 wasn't dramatically different from the previous Whig party (or, in ways that it was, it was primarily to counterpoint the Democratic party).

If you think the American political system will be much different in 2034 with the newly minted Republican-Nationalist Party and the Neo-Progressive Party, you haven't paid much attention to the past.

Edited, Jul 24th 2016 2:41pm by Jophiel
I know what you mean. I'm just saying that a party wouldn't be able to reform without the support of the people.
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#265 Jul 24 2016 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
TLW wrote:
Their approval rating is low because for a host of structural reasons candidates are elected with minority public support.
They are low because people are ignorant. They blame the president for local government issues and uncontrollable issues. People vote against their interest and refuse to acknowledge any good from the other party. They want politicians to be honest, but then attack them for not fitting a mold. When the politicians bend to fit the mold, then they are called flip floppers.


No, the problem is people can't vote for the issues that they want to affect and can only vote for an imperfect candidate who agrees with them on some of what they want, and then if they change their position on the issue that was their primary motivation, there is no rational mechanism to punish them for that. Non-FPTP would ameliorate this somewhat by giving more accurate voter-candidate mapping, and disincentivizing positional changes. Allowing for direct policy voting would be a more accurate solution but there are real cognitive/administrative costs to such a system.
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#266 Jul 24 2016 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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DWS is resigning from the DNC following the convention so scalps have been had and life can move forward.
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#267 Jul 24 2016 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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TLW wrote:
No, the problem is people can't vote for the issues that they want to affect and can only vote for an imperfect candidate who agrees with them on some of what they want, and then if they change their position on the issue that was their primary motivation, there is no rational mechanism to punish them for that. Non-FPTP would ameliorate this somewhat by giving more accurate voter-candidate mapping, and disincentivizing positional changes.
That's blatantly false. The biggest attacks on Bush: View on immigration and education. The biggest attacks on Rubio: His previous view on Immigration; The biggest reason why Clinton lost in 2008: Her vote for the Iraqi war. The biggest attack on Sanders: His record on gun control. People don't holistically look at candidates and judge them on well they can lead. They want magical candidates that 100% support their beliefs.

TLW wrote:
Allowing for direct policy voting would be a more accurate solution but there are real cognitive/administrative costs to such a system.
I agree with this 100%.
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#268 Jul 24 2016 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
For the record, I am all for it. I want both Rs and Ds to fail, disband, and fall into obscurity.

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?


I see your point. Nothing ever changes. It is absolutely pointless to even hope for a future. It is best to to leave politicians to their own devices, let them inbreed until they create a politician version of white trash. Wait..
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#269 Jul 24 2016 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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Angrymnk wrote:

I see your point. Nothing ever changes. It is absolutely pointless to even hope for a future. It is best to to leave politicians to their own devices, let them inbreed until they create a politician version of white trash. Wait..
Or not repeat the past.
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#270 Jul 24 2016 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
For the record, I am all for it. I want both Rs and Ds to fail, disband, and fall into obscurity.

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?


I see your point. Nothing ever changes. It is absolutely pointless to even hope for a future. It is best to to leave politicians to their own devices, let them inbreed until they create a politician version of white trash. Wait..

No, but it's pointless to think that dissolving the current parties will do anything. Better to work inside the system to affect change. See Bernie Sanders.
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#271 Jul 24 2016 at 6:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
I see your point. Nothing ever changes. It is absolutely pointless to even hope for a future.

Smiley: thumbsup
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#272 Jul 24 2016 at 6:30 PM Rating: Default
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Sir X wrote:
No, but it's pointless to think that dissolving the current parties will do anything. Better to work inside the system to affect change. See Bernie Sanders.
Except he caved in for political promises. I wouldn't use him as an example, but maybe the concept that he was pretending to follow.
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#273 Jul 24 2016 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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What do you mean he caved in for political promises? his whole purpose was to get those political promises, to get the issues into the discussion.
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#274 Jul 24 2016 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
angrymnk wrote:
For the record, I am all for it. I want both Rs and Ds to fail, disband, and fall into obscurity.

And be immediately replaced by essentially the same party under a different name like every other time in American history?


I see your point. Nothing ever changes. It is absolutely pointless to even hope for a future. It is best to to leave politicians to their own devices, let them inbreed until they create a politician version of white trash. Wait..

No, but it's pointless to think that dissolving the current parties will do anything. Better to work inside the system to affect change. See Bernie Sanders.


I disagree, because I am not sure what you are suggesting I am thinking. I am not talking about working outside the system. I am not talking about dissolving current parties. Apart from everything else, I have no direct, and very limited indirect, control over them. I am talking about letting them implode. Power vacuum does do something. That it may not be fun is another matter altogether...
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#275 Jul 24 2016 at 6:51 PM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
What do you mean he caved in for political promises? his whole purpose was to get those political promises, to get the issues into the discussion.
I'm not talking about the platform. I mean his role in the administration, promise. What almost every 2nd place finisher in a primary is offered in the party that wins the White House.

His purpose in the beginning was to get the message out, before he thought he had a chance to win. Then he ran to win. Once he accepted the fact that he couldn't win, he started to dial back to his original message. If he were truly about the message, then he would be fighting on the floor like he said he would from the beginning. He would be trying to use the email leak as a last ditch effort to flip the super delegates, like he said he would (after he changed his opinion on Super delegates).
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#276 Jul 24 2016 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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angrymnk wrote:
Power vacuum does do something.

Trump!
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