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GOP Healthcare Plan is a Liberal Conspiracy. Follow

#152 Apr 07 2017 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
How many times did they push for votes to repeal the ACA? Were those just to abolish it, or were they also trying to replace it?
Just abolish.
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#153 Apr 07 2017 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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Damnable double!!Smiley: mad


Edited, Apr 7th 2017 8:25pm by Bijou
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#154 Apr 07 2017 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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#155 Apr 07 2017 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Crappy analogy, I admit
If you didn't use crappy analogies, you'd get less flack. Just sayin'.


Fair enough. Again though, it was one in a list of things. The broader point that we do tend to start with very general objectives and then narrow them down to more detailed plans as we get closer to the event in question is pretty valid though, right? I don't know about you, but I'm usually still making adjustments to my shopping list right up to the point I'm walking in the store (and sometimes even after that point). And I don't have to deal with other people changing their minds about what they want for dinner.


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gbaji wrote:
Which explains why they didn't have a fully written piece of legislation in hand.
They didn't have anything which is, again, the point. They couldn't come up with even a basic framework for something different since the ACA passed? Really? Maybe you GOP folk should get more competent and concerned people on your team.


They did have a basic framework. What they didn't have was a full piece of legislation. We're not talking about changing the tie you wear to dinner here. There's a massive amount of time and energy between "here's a bullet list of thing we want to change" and "here's the actual legislation, written in legal form that can stand future judicial scrutiny and re-definition, properly scored, and which meets the requirements of the list of bullet points we started with, and which we have a high confidence we can get enough votes in the house and senate to pass".

It's a totally unworkable requirement, and frankly this is the only time I've ever in my life heard it being demanded. It took the Democrats a little over a year to pass the ACA. And that was with a super majority in the Senate. I don't recall anyone criticizing them because Obama made "fixing health care" one of his major political planks in his campaign, but then didn't have a ready to vote on bill within the first 100 days of taking office. Do you? It takes time to write legislation, and you can't start doing so until after a session of congress starts and you know who all the players and factions are. I mean, you could write it ahead of time, but you'll only have to completely re-write it when a new session begins again.

Again, the GOP assumed, as we all did, that they'd have a president Clinton to deal with. So yeah. You'll have to forgive them for not actually spending a ton of time and effort writing a bill they believed would never possibly become a law. They chose to spend their time and effort trying to win house and senate seats (and the white house), so that at some point in the future they'd have sufficient numbers to pass such a bill, and then they'd write it. They just didn't expect it would happen this soon.

No one writes complete (or even partial) legislation that far in advance. I'm not even sure where this assumed requirement came from. As I mentioned above, I've never seen it demanded before. And frankly, it seems like a pretty weak argument. Who cares really? They'll write it when they write it. Are you actually in a hurry for the GOP to change the health care system? I assume not. So this isn't really about criticizing them for doing something which you don't actually want them to do, right? It's about finding something, anything at all, to criticize them for.
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#156 Apr 07 2017 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
How many times did they push for votes to repeal the ACA? Were those just to abolish it, or were they also trying to replace it?
Just abolish.


Those were all before the major portions of the ACA took effect though. It's one thing to cancel a piece of legislation that phases in from year 3 to year 5 when you're still in year 1 or 2. You just pass a law and don't implement the original legislation. It's a completely different thing to do so when you've reached year 6. You now have to account for the fact that changes have already occurred. You have to find a way to roll back those changes, and to do so in a way that minimally impacts those who have already had to adjust their lives to the new/current legislation. All those people whose employers dropped them from their health care, and who went on the public exchanges? You can't just eliminate the exchanges, right? If you'd prevented the option in the first place, it would have been easy.

Now, it's not so much. So the choice was between a total re-write of the health care system, which takes quite a bit of time, including many years of phase in for the replacement, or a much faster "modification" to the existing law. Ryan chose to do the latter, because it was easier, and he thought he could get the votes for it. He thought wrong. The GOP members wanted a full repeal and replace of the ACA, not just a tepid adjustment to it. So yeah, back to the drawing board.

I honestly believe it was the right choice to make.
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#157 Apr 07 2017 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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I was only asking the question because I was too lazy to google it.
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#158 Apr 07 2017 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I was only asking the question because I was too lazy to google it.


Fair enough. I was just following that up with an explanation as to why calls for repealing it, which started 6 years ago, can't just magically be done with a snap of a finger today. You'll also note that bills to repeal the ACA by the house GOP stopped right around the same time that the ACA components began to phase in and take effect. Precisely because you can't simply repeal a law once its begun to have effect. You have to write an actual replacement that adjusts for the effects of the law for the time it's been in effect. And the exact nature of that replacement legislation will change over time as more of the components of the original law take effect. So you have a bit of a moving target for the entire time period between when the first law is passed, and you can even think about replacing it.

Which, again, is part of the reason why they didn't have a fully written piece of legislation ready to go in January or something. I still happen to think the bigger reason is that they simply assumed that Clinton would win the election and were preparing for that more likely scenario and not the much less likely one in which Trump is sitting in the oval office. It's not like Democrats were the only ones shocked and surprised when Trump won.
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#159 Apr 07 2017 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
They did have a basic framework.
Which I've never heard of or seen. Do you have a link to it?
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#160 Apr 07 2017 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It took the Democrats a little over a year to pass the ACA.

Good thing they didn't spend the seven years before that howling about how they had a better plan.

Amusingly, back in 2015 ("Oh noes Freedom Caucus!!!!!") you insisted repeatedly that the GOP had a plan ready to go. In fact, rather than whine and cry about how it was too hard because different people were in office every couple of years, you insisted that:
Quote:
The GOP had a consistent set of ideas back in 2009, and they have a consistent set of ideas today.

I guess the expiration date on that "consistency" was 2015, huh? Now it's all "But there's new people and it's too hard to have a plan! Smiley: cry "

Even worse, the GOP "plan" fell apart at bullet point number one where a significant number of House Republicans balked at the idea of immediately and completely repealing the ACA. I mean, if you can't even get step one of your "consistent set of ideas" off the ground, you can't really pretend that you always had a plan. Or, well, I guess you just had a really shitty plan no one actually thought through.

Edited, Apr 8th 2017 12:30am by Jophiel
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#161 Apr 08 2017 at 2:44 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Of course, that's just my insurance based on the fact sheet that I got last year about all the changes that were made in response to the passage of ACA.
Being an honest fellow, you will post that here (with your info redacted, of course).
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#162 Apr 10 2017 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I guess the expiration date on that "consistency" was 2015, huh?
It's just a coincidence that all the people that were involved with that consistent plan were all replaced two years ago. Like Paul Ryan.
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#163 Apr 10 2017 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
They did have a basic framework. What they didn't have was a full piece of legislation. We're not talking about changing the tie you wear to dinner here. There's a massive amount of time and energy between "here's a bullet list of thing we want to change" and "here's the actual legislation, written in legal form that can stand future judicial scrutiny and re-definition, properly scored, and which meets the requirements of the list of bullet points we started with, and which we have a high confidence we can get enough votes in the house and senate to pass".
Which is the interesting part to me.

Kind of wondering what happened behind the scenes. Was something worked out previously, but they didn't get the right people elected that could have passed it; so it was suddenly a no-go in the new congress? We're there votes that deserted from the 'yes' camp in the last month or two, perhaps swayed by changing opinions of their constituents, or convinced by lobbyists? Was the whole thing smoke and mirrors the whole time and they never really did have the votes necessary to pass it, just put on a show for the sake of meeting a campaign promise?

gbaji wrote:
It took the Democrats a little over a year to pass the ACA. And that was with a super majority in the Senate.
Funny thing is, now in hindsight, it's apparent just how much of significant legislative accomplishment that was. Wasn't happy at all with the way the Democrats strong-armed that broken piece of legislation through, but looking back now, it's pretty obvious getting 60% of the senate to vote one way on health care was pretty significant.

gbaji wrote:
Are you actually in a hurry for the GOP to change the health care system?
Health care costs keep going up, sea levels keep going up, cost of college keeps going up, federal debt keeps going up, cost of supporting retiring baby boomers keeps going up. All are not an immediate concern until they suddenly are, and they don't suddenly hit everyone at the same time, so there's little motivation to change. It's an urgent issue for a small number of people, a distant thought for others, and still more have already forgotten what it was like to have it.
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#164 Apr 10 2017 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
cost of college keeps going up
Not here. Smiley: thumbsup
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#165 Apr 10 2017 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
cost of college keeps going up
Not here. Smiley: thumbsup
I want to see that in a recruitment video with a Billy Mays impersonator doing the selling. Instead all I get is the same tired dribble about patriotism and pride or whatever. Ya'll are missing out on a great opportunity.
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#166 Apr 10 2017 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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BILLY MAYS HERE, WITH AN EXCITING NEW OFFER ON FURTHERING YOUR EDUCATION!
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#167 Apr 10 2017 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Perfect. There's hope for this country after all.

Smiley: popcorn
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#168 Apr 10 2017 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Just give Phil Swift some cocaine and we'd easily have Mays back.
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#169 Apr 10 2017 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
They did have a basic framework.
Which I've never heard of or seen. Do you have a link to it?


Not sure when this was released, but this literally took 10 seconds to find on google

Here's another list of things they want to do.

Both of those look like they were generated around the time when the ACA was first being debated (or very soon after passage). You seem to be the victim of a narrative that needed so strongly to convince everyone that there was no alternative plan to what Obama and the Dems were proposing, that despite the GOP writing paper after paper, and going to everyone who would listen and practically yelling "this is what we think we should be doing instead", no one listened. And on the rare occasions when what they said was reported, no one talked about it on the alphabet networks on your TV. So if you are Joe average media consumer, all your heard was "The GOP has no alternative plan", probably about 100,000 times.

And most people still believe that. Ironically, those people are so convinced of this, that they wont even bother to spend 10 seconds of their own time checking this amazing thing called "the internet" to see if that's actually true.


BTW, that's what a "framework" looks like. If you're demanding actual legislation, we can find examples of that. Heck. We saw what Ryan came up with. It wasn't great, but it was actual proposed legislation.

Again, you're missing the larger point that you start with lists of objectives and broad ideas of how to achieve them. Then you build support for that, and if you think you have enough, then you write the detailed legislation. You don't do it the other way around. Which is why it's bizarre that everyone seems to want to demand just that, but only in this one specific case. I'm reasonably certain that Elon Musk got investors in his new electric car company with a list of "things we want our car to be able to do", and no one was actually demanding existing blue prints for the finished product at that stage. No one does what you're demanding the GOP should have done, in the order you seem to think they should have done it.

You're just hearing a ton of folks on your TV and news sources demanding this, or criticizing them for not having it, and assuming that this is a reasonable demand. It's not. It's being done precisely to make you think it is, though. And apparently this works on most people.
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#170 Apr 10 2017 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
despite the GOP writing paper after paper, and going to everyone who would listen and practically yelling "this is what we think we should be doing instead", no one listened.


It's almost like...everyone wanted Obamacare because it...you know...existed.
#171 Apr 10 2017 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Not sure when this was released, but this literally took 10 seconds to find on google

This is from 2009, pre-ACA passing. It was mentioned on this page


This is also from 2009 and predates the ACA passing. Found mention of it here

Edited to add:
Oh, also, found this on the first link I provided, looks like the actual legistlation that they wanted to use to amend the ACA. It's here

Edited, Apr 10th 2017 7:08pm by stupidmonkey
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#172 Apr 11 2017 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji's link wrote:
Lowering health care premiums.
The GOP plan will lower health care premiums for American
families and small businesses, addressing Americans’ number
-one priority for health care reform.
Yeah.

How?
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Jophiel wrote:
Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#173 Apr 11 2017 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
How?
How else?
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#174 Apr 11 2017 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji's link wrote:
Lowering health care premiums.
The GOP plan will lower health care premiums for American
families and small businesses, addressing Americans’ number
-one priority for health care reform.
Yeah.

How?

It won't. That's why Ryan wanted to push it through before the CBO could score it. It would have dropped millions of people from their insurance and raised premiums for millions more by changing the subsidy tiers, driving out healthy people and allowing companies to charge extra for various things (repealing essential benefits) including substantial premium increases for older individuals.
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#175 Apr 11 2017 at 6:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
gbaji wrote:
despite the GOP writing paper after paper, and going to everyone who would listen and practically yelling "this is what we think we should be doing instead", no one listened.


It's almost like...everyone wanted Obamacare because it...you know...existed.


First off, "everyone" didn't want Obamacare. In fact, it consistently polled at well below 50% support for the entire time period it was being debated, discussed, and written.

Secondly, this is the same legislation that Pelosi said "you can find out what's in it after we pass it" (paraphrase)? Seriously? It wasn't written either. It was still being re-written and modified and adjusted right up until they lost their super majority in the Senate and then had to scramble to try to use reconcilliation to make it "fit" and then kinda tossed what they had onto the presidents desk.

We got the equivalent of a musical chairs legislation. It was not what *anyone* intended or wanted. It's just the form it happened to be in when the music stopped.

And again, the point is that they didn't start actually writing the legislation itself until well after they knew how many votes they had. And they were still writing it a year later. I still suspect that what happened was that the GOP folks involved in this assumed, as did most of us, that Clinton was going to win, and they might not even have retained the Senate, so they wrote a half measure legislation that could pass with minimal votes and might be able to get through a veto if painted as a "fix for Obamacare" rather than a full repeal and replace. Then Trump won, and the GOP did better in the Senate than expected, and they suddenly realized that they did have the numbers to write a much more complete health care bill. But they didn't have that even close to written, so they decided to just do "something" that would meet the presidents 100 days requirement, and tossed the Ryan half measure bill out there.

And yeah. It got rejected by the GOP itself. Not surprising at all IMO.
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#176 Apr 11 2017 at 6:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Not sure when this was released, but this literally took 10 seconds to find on google

This is from 2009, pre-ACA passing. It was mentioned on this page


This is also from 2009 and predates the ACA passing. Found mention of it here

Edited to add:
Oh, also, found this on the first link I provided, looks like the actual legistlation that they wanted to use to amend the ACA. It's here


And? I was asked for example of the GOP "framework" for their proposed health care changes. The list of things they want to accomplish hasn't changed. How you accomplish that, on the other hand, changes constantly as the political landscape changes, and in this case, as various portions of the ACA came into effect. I'm reasonably certain I've already explained multiple times now why the GOP kinda had to wait until they had sufficient numbers (and knew what they were and who they were) before they could start writing the actual legislation. In response, I was told that they didn't even have a framework. Those links were to the framework.

I'm not sure what you expect here. We're not going to find examples of fully written legislation anywhere, because that's not how legislation is written (seriously, go look at how committees work and you'll get an idea why). Again, it's like you're asking me to provide blueprints for a car when we're still debating what kinds of capabilities we think the car we're designing should have and don't yet know what materials we'll have available, how much money we'll have for design, what kind of factories and tools we'll have, etc.

No one does what is being demanded here. No one. There is nothing at all unusual for a political party to write up a list of things they'd like to accomplish and then fight for those things, and run campaigns on those things, all without ever having written any legislation. It's normal. You gain support for the idea first, then you fill out the details. Doing it the other way around is just a huge waste of time and resources.
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