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"That's gay", "What a ******", "I bFollow

#27 Sep 08 2005 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
You see but you in yourself are putting forth words that define a hypocrite. Homosexuality is looked upon as OK and BAD by different people, and as you type to defend homosexuals, your presenting your thoughts to others to persuade them to see it your way. Why would you have to do this? Because not everyone sees life the same, we all have different opinions, and you feel one opinion of others is demeaning toward you and other gay people. While I do not support the opinions/actions of the KKK, you can't push for reasoning and respect for gays, because you dont like how words that relate to gays are used, then go and bash the KKK. In the eyes of some, the KKK is good, and instead of thinking that over and expressing you understand that the KKK is entitled to the same freedoms as all of us, you up and bash them. How is that any different then me saying "Some *** flipped me off today"? Maybe showing that you view the KKK as offensive IS actually offensive to other ppl. Its all part of culture clash, some people see the pie as good, others see the pie as bad. We spend most of our time trying to either push for everyone to love the pie, or just get everyone to understand the pie has the same rights as us, and just get a general respect for the pie.

All in all what im saying is you put up a huge post pushing for respect for gay persons feelings, while showing NO consideration whatsoever for supporters of the KKK. You may think its ok because almost everyone hates the KKK anyway, but if thats how you see it, then your a hypocrite yourself. You push for understanding and respect for a group of people who some like and some dont. If your still not getting the point, I'll simplify.

Mommy has 3 children, all boys, and all 3 children behave equally. Mommy has a little extra money this month and she could use it to buy some food for the family, or a new pair of shoes for one of the boys. Naturally she buys the food, which everyone can enjoy, instead of the shoes. Why? Because how can Mommy give one boy new shoes, when the other 2 equally deserve them as well?

Oh, dont feel bad about this, its a common mistake people make today. "Bigot" is used by you and alot of people to describe "Racist,Facist,****,disrespectful, you get the point" types of people. You've shown your hypocriticism again by using Bigot in this context. Your angry because people misuse the words Gay and ******, when you yourself are misusing the word Bigot. Bigot as of defintion: "A person who views another persons opinion as invalid". When you talk in your daily life you may disagree with someone else, when you do you are being a bigot, its nothing bad we all agree on some issues and disagree on others. So yes, before you also push for correct context use and respect for correct context use, make sure the words you are using are IN THEIR CORRECT CONTEXT. If your trying to express that you view the KKK as racist and facist, use the word Racist, or combine it with other words to get your point across.
#28 Sep 08 2005 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
i agree completely. its more a case of opinion as oposed to actual right and wrong. and argue as we may, noone will end up being right. im finished and good day to you all (even the homosexuals lol)

Edited, Thu Sep 8 17:41:42 2005 by Ayazz
#29 Sep 08 2005 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
GogetaExtreme wrote:
Sure, I'll use the term 'gay' in a non-derogatory way, like saying "That's gay" and such. A lot of people do that, even homosexuals themselves.

/sigh this is my whole point - it IS derogatory. What you mean by saying "that's gay" is "that's stupid", "that's lame", "i don't like that and am going to use a completely unrelated term to signal my disapproval of whatever it is i don't like" The only gay people I know who have used the phrase is facetiously because they know it's absurd to equate gay with any of those things.
#30 Sep 08 2005 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
allsystemsgo, most of your post was non-sequitur and made absolutely little sense logically from first review. In fairness though I will review it again on my train ride home and respond to it if I can figure out what you're trying to say.
#31 Sep 08 2005 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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3,139 posts
You should certainly reread Allsystemsgo's post, as he/she has some very valid points.

But i can end this discussion now, if everyone likes?





EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT

We as a world, need to do our best to respect all groups/races/cultures, and stop trying to convince them to think like us.


Of course your all welcome to continue this discussion, and a big ole /bow to everyone for being rather civil.

#32 Sep 08 2005 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
I just have a quick point.... who decides what is moral and what isn't? Morality is a personal issue, and needs to be determined by each and every individual. The only "absolute" moral values, in my opinion, are those that infringe on another persons basic rights (murder, rape, kidnapping, etc, are immoral). Does one person being gay interfer with your life? Probably not, so the moraltiy of it is not for you to decide.
#33 Sep 08 2005 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
lawtechguy Scholar wrote:
/sigh this is my whole point - it IS derogatory. What you mean by saying "that's gay" is "that's stupid", "that's lame", "i don't like that and am going to use a completely unrelated term to signal my disapproval of whatever it is i don't like" The only gay people I know who have used the phrase is facetiously because they know it's absurd to equate gay with any of those things.


There are a couple of gay people in my Linkshell who will instead of saying "That's gay" and such, reference us straight people as a saying. Does that mean that is considered derogatory towards us straight people?

It's not derogatory unless it is used in a negative way to personally attack a person or persons. It's just like using the word "*****". It's like a friend of mine who we called 'Big, Black and ready to attack'. He used to call us "Cracka *** crackas" but it wasn't a personal insult and we all knew it. Or for example, I'll call my buddy Mario a Beaner or 'The Bean'. He doesn't give a sh[i][/i]it because he knows I'm not personally trying to attack him.

It all depends on the person, really. The way you think about using the term 'gay' by a straight person could differ from someone else's definition. I wouldn't consider it to be derogatory unless it is a personal attack and there is anger involved. I think people just freak out too much when the term is used even though they have heard it thousands of times. It's getting as bad as when a white person drops the 'N bomb'.
#34 Sep 08 2005 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
Gogeta I am sure you are a very cool person and maybe you can joke in your own inner circle in a way where you all know you are joking. In your case, you seem to acknowledge certain stereotypes with regard to gays as just that: stereotypes, and do not really mean to define "gay" with a derogatory meaning. See my original response to Ayazz and my reference to Kramer's post re: the fine line.

But most people who use the phrase do so without even thinking about it and the meaning they portray by using such statements. I white person may call a black person a ni***r in jest, and it's ok because they're friends. But say the same thing to a stranger and you wonder what he is going to think.

See my next post in response to allsystemsgo re: public and private. I think your inner circle of friends would probably fall under the private sphere.
#35 Sep 08 2005 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
While perhaps not stated in the most logically flowing prose, I believe I now understand what you were trying to say, Allsystemsgo. And I don't mean that as a put-down, simply that as someone who studied logic and philosophy extensively in college, your post didn't make the most sense to me at first. Perhaps because you honed in on one small sentence in my /rant to try to undermine it's entire menaing (a clever strategy). However, I have pondered your argument and considered its merits and now wonder if you are prepared to consider these musings:

I have to disagree with your definition of bigot, or at least your interpretation of the definition. People who disagree with each other are not automatically bigots. I respect people to have a different opinion from my own and don't try to force them to agree with me in their PERSONAL conduct. Along these lines, I happen to personally believe abortion in most cases is a sad and horrible choice to make, but at the same time others have the right to feel differently and conduct their personal lives according to their own conscience. If someone has an abortion, it does not have a direct impact on me, and I cannot force them to act differently simply because I don't like it (let's put aside the whole are you killing children argument - as once again I don't think a definitive answer will ever be made) However, PUBLIC conduct is quite a different thing from PRIVATE conduct, which I will address momentarily.

A bigot is "someone who views another person's opinion as INVALID" by your definition. This is very different from simply disagreeing with a viewpoint. A bigot will dictate that the other person is not entitled to their viewpoint. And in a broader sense, (this may be where our definitions differ) I view a bigot as anyone who dismisses another way of thinking simply because they are different from them, whether it be because of race, religion, gender, creed, sexual orientation, etc. To me bigotry and prejudice are the same thing and encoompass the "smaller" more specific manifestations of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. For me to be a bigot on the sexuality level, I would have to dictate that being straight is an invalid or illogical lifestyle and that people should not be entitled to live that way (which is obviously absurd). Opinion and validity are completely separate issues. I do not consider myself a bigot because as I said, people are entitled to their belief system in their private lives.

But, PUBLIC conduct is different from PRIVATE/PERSONAL conduct. Veldez's post is right on point. The public is where we are forced to interact, like it or not, and we had better find a way to co-exist in this thing we call society. When my actions come into conflict with your own freedoms, then there is a problem. This is why laws exist, to define what is acceptable in our our public interactions with each other. A law that seeks to definie acceptability in the private sphere is beyond its valid scope. In addition to laws, we have ethics and ettiquete. Once again, this is different from morality which extends to your personal life. Society cannot force itself into this private realm. And while ettiquete is not enforcable, it is still a pretty good guideline to go by in your interactions with others.

The real question, with regard to FFXI, is what is public and what is private? Insofar as you are interacting with other people, it is the public domain. Given the nature of MMORPG, this means almost everywhere, except maybe in the privacy of your own mog house with no one looking in (i.e. not in a party, LS unequipped, online status invisible, charater info anon). My OP was a call not for other people to accept who I am in my mog house or when I log out of the game or even to like me once I'm no longer interacting with you; it was a call to show common decency in the public arena that is FFXI.

Bigot is not a word that necessarily has a derogatory meaning. For the most part it is an acceptable definition of a particular ideology. *** is different, particularly when people use the term in describing a person they dislike for a reason that has nothing to do with their sexuality. "That ****** flipped me off" might be used because you thought the guy was a jerk, didn't like him, and wanted to call him something "bad", but most likely had absolutely nothing to do with his sexuality (how would you even know if a random stranger was gay?). Similaraly, saying something is "gay" because you don't like it has nothing to do sexuality, particularly because usually it is not even people that are being described in this way.

To the point of all this: To the extent that my understanding of the KKK is that they uphold a belief system and attempt to disallow others from believing otherwise, my description of them as bigots would be accurate. I did not intend my use of the word "bigot" to be an epithet but rather a statement of fact. So to the extent that my OP called for others to show a little respect in their public interactions, I fail to see how stating the KKK are bigots makes me a hypocrite.

In fairness, my final remark of my OP refering to flamers as "idiots" would rightfully be considered a flame in itself(I was a bit riled up after writing all that), and as such I apologize and will change "idiots" simply to "children" (because it is childish to continually flame others). As fem said, we all have a tendancy to resort to childish reactions, particularly when we are inundated with them ourselves; we are human, but at least some of us can recognize a mistake and fix it.
#36 Sep 08 2005 at 10:33 PM Rating: Good
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Ultimately, this topic comes down to a matter of personal choice and cultural acceptance. In America, virtually everything is goverened by those two controlling views.

For instance, in America, the mere thought of dating your cousin in considered incest and frowned upon, possibly even illegal *not sure off-hand*. However, in 3rd world countries and overseas, dating a cousin in entirely acceptable, and sometimes arranged by cultures where an arranged marriage is still the custom.

In America, which was founded by those seeking religious freedom, notably English Puritans and Spanish and French Catholics, homosexuality and a gay lifestyle was biblically unacceptable. However, our founding fathers set up a constitution that gave 'Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. As long as this pursuit doesn't infringe upon another person's right to the pursuit of happiness (which is why murder is illegal--a dead person can't pursue anything), it is essentially legal in America--or will be.

Perfect examples of this are abortion, changing mores on cultural acceptance of Gay and Lesbian relationships, slavery, women's right to vote, etc. While all of these things were illegal, or legal in the case of slavery, when the contry was founded, the reverse is now true.

Ultimately, every person is responsible for their personal choices. Your choice is to be gay. So be it.

On a personal note: I do not intend my post to be a public endorsement of gay or homosexual relationships. I am a conservative Christian, and have been raised that way. I personally feel that homosexuality is morally wrong, and has consequences, both physical and spiritual. However, we live in America, and the right is yours. Furthermore, God has said the right to choose is yours, even if you make the wrong choice, so who am I to force you to choose a different lifestyle? I might try to change your mind because I care about the eternal consequences for you, but that conversation should happen in a rational matter. In America, I have no right to prevent you from 'pursuing happiness', as long as you do so in a legal and consenting manner.

I disagree with your personal choice Lawtechguy, but I endorse and support your right to make that choice.


Buffylvr
____________________________
I used to care about my sig. Then I got mocked and butt-hurt. I shall commence with the self-pity now.
#37REDACTED, Posted: Sep 08 2005 at 11:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) actually you are horribly incorrect. it says life, liberty, and the pursuit of PROPERTY.
#38 Sep 08 2005 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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97 posts
No, actually, the constitution has the pursuit of happiness. That part was based on another literary work that spoke of life, liberty, and property. But the founding fathers of the US changed that last bit to happiness. So they didn't have to give land to women or minorities, aye, but it also has positive ramifications.
#39REDACTED, Posted: Sep 08 2005 at 11:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) sorry i remember from my history class that property was in the original draft. it never made it into the final. my bad
#40 Sep 09 2005 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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900 posts
Wow, that OP took a while to read.....

Anyhow, just wanted to say, from one gay man to another....Bartholomew, YOU GO BOY!!!

Ok, now that I got that little "femme" bit out of my system, I can go back to being the booze drinking, sports watching, FFXI playing guy I normally am.

BTW, the gay man that was on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania on 9-11 was Mark Bingham. He was a gay rugby player from San Francisco. They have since started (not sure of exact name) the Mark Bingham Cup, which is a huge rugby tournament that attracts all gay teams from around the world.
#41 Sep 09 2005 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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306 posts
Ayazz do you actually think before you write all that sh*t down, you are making your self out to be very immature....and well basically a complete and utter ******!

Quote:
You know, a friend of mine from Junior High/High School had the exact same view as you. You know what he is now? He's gay. If you have that kind of outlook on things, you better start running away from yourself.


Exact same thing happened to me as well, the ones who make the biggest commotion about homosexuals being "morally wrong" etc are normally having trouble dealing with their own sexuality, pointing the finger at others well in fact you are just trying to run away from yourself.

I do not know where you got "homosexuals can choose to be homosexual", so they just wake up one day and think "hmmm i think ill like men today" and the next day "bah, bored of that i like women today" of course it can not be chosen you fool! You make no sense, you are born with your sexuality and everyone should be treated equal no matter what their sexuality.

All i can say is that you are very immature and i pity you for leading such a blinkered life.
#42 Sep 09 2005 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
Buffylvr wrote:
I disagree with your personal choice Lawtechguy, but I endorse and support your right to make that choice.

Well, again, there is very little I can do to make others understand it is not a choice, but regardless, this statement is essetnially all I'm looking for. You don't have to like me or how I conduct my life, and I don't have to like the way (to me at least) others my blindly accept a belief system that discourages free thought. But that is our prerogative in our personal spheres. In public, we simply try to act civilized, try not to call each other names, apologize if we do, agree to disagree and move on. Perhaps as more people can do this we will gain a greater understanding of each other.

FYI - just a side note from this political science / philosophy double major - As for "life, liberty, and property / pursuit of happiness", this is actually nowhere stated as such in the CONSTITUTION, but rather it is in our Declaration of Independence. The original use of "property" was from John Locke's political treatise, which Thomas Jefferson relied quite heavily on. But ultimately it was changed. The closest manifestation of this principle in the Constitution itself is the first amendment.
#43 Sep 09 2005 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
I read this entire thread and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.
#44 Sep 09 2005 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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440 posts
Wow, ok... Some people need to grow up, and others need to think before they post...

I have gay friends, lesbian friends, and straight friends.. Why? Because people are people. They all know I'm straight, and due to respecting that, the gay ones won't hit on me, unless, of course, it's joking...

I totally understand the OP's point, as I made it a habit to not say, "That's gay/homosexual," or something of the sort.

I have a question to Ayaz..

Why are gay people so bad to you? How is it immoral? No offense to religious people, but are you a God fearing person? If you're not, and just don't like gay people, then why? And what have they done to you, if anything? I believe they have a right to marry, ect.. It's natural rights that no one should be deprived of, especially marriage, as I hold that as one of the most sacred values in life.

Again, everyone has their opinions, I just want to know why you are so dead-set against them...

~Nieko
#45 Sep 09 2005 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Proroc wrote:
I read this entire thread and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.

You also get to carry away with you that I thought you were cute ;-)
still surprised after all this time no one said anything about it :-p

Edited, Fri Sep 9 10:54:18 2005 by lawtechguy
#46 Sep 09 2005 at 10:04 AM Rating: Default
lawtechguy wrote:
Quote:
I read this entire thread and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.

You also get to carry away with you that I thought you were cute ;-)
still surprised after all this time no one said anything about it :-p



Thats cool, she tells me im hot also, but it does not change the fact I will be married 15 days though.

Edited, Fri Sep 9 11:09:23 2005 by Jessica Simpson



Edited, Fri Sep 9 11:11:10 2005 by Proroc
#47 Sep 09 2005 at 10:16 AM Rating: Default
Um, rIIIght...

and I know you're getting married. Grats. I'm "married" anyway and you're not gay, and personality wise, well I'm not that fond of you. But I thought it'd be nice to give you a compliment since no one on this board seems to do very much of that.

Edited, Fri Sep 9 11:30:37 2005 by lawtechguy
#48 Sep 09 2005 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
Actually if you noticed closely, only 2 people on this board have been flaming me well 3 if you count the troll of 1 of those 2, but still the same person. I get along with most everyone on Shiva and just because 2 people decide to flame me on here it does not mean anything.

You do not even know me personality wise so how can you say you do not like me? Smiley: tongue
#49 Sep 09 2005 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Has anyone noticed that I've gotten rated down essentially for saying Lawtechguy has the right to make his own decisions? What would have happened if I had flamed him like Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson?


/blist the rate-down noobs.
____________________________
I used to care about my sig. Then I got mocked and butt-hurt. I shall commence with the self-pity now.
#50 Sep 09 2005 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
well, now we're just getting off topic, so I'll PM you later
#51REDACTED, Posted: Sep 09 2005 at 12:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well if u a *** u *** there is nothing u can do bout it. I for one don't like them. But its just a game so you gotta put up with it. So why don't we just have some clean fun ^^
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