A Highly In-Depth Guide to Loot DistributionFollow

>>> Part 1 - Introduction

> 1.1 - Who am I & What's this Post all about?

Firstly, I thought that with this being my first informative thread here on Allakhazam, I might ands well introduce myself (plus you're probs thinking 'who the heck is this newb with only 18 Posts & no lv 75 Jobs!?')!

Well, I'm Enbi (though my Character is Vashj on Sylph) and, although I'm still very new to FFXI, I'm most definitely not new to the MMO scene in general, playing WoW (I know, I know, 'boo hiss!') for around 4 years as a Warlock. In my time I've been Class Leader of 2 Semi-Hardcore Guilds, one of which I was a member of for over two years, a member of a full-on Hardcore Guild for a period of time, and I've also led a Guild with over 250 active members. Combining all of these experiences, I've been in direct contact with the whole Loot Distribution debacle for many years, often having a hand in designing new methods to suite a Guild's particular needs.

Anyway, all that's behind me now, and here I am having the time of my life with FFXI. I've been a long time lurker of the Allakazham forums, only posting a few times (as you can see), but have decided to brave the cold water and post this guide with the aim of helping people understand the various existing Loot Distribution Methods, and also with how to be creative and come up with your own.

Wall of text over, I'll get on with the show. (Soon .. ^^).

> 1.2 - What is a Loot Distribution Method?

So exactly what is a Loot Distribution Method? Well, it's exactly that - A method of distributing a Party/Alliance's Loot. Probably the most popular/well known of these methods is 'DKP' and its many associated applications.

'What's the point though? Why not just let everyone Lot for their stuff!?' - Well, that's actually a valid method, (and is discussed in further detail in Part 2 ^^) but many LinkShells prefer to use a system that isn't random and rewards the members that put in effort. Note that any of the words highlighted above are crucial factors to every Distribution Method and I will be discussing each in more detail throughout the Guide.

> 1.3 - How to use this Guide

Every Distribution Method covered will have an Introduction, an Example In Use, My Experiences with the Method, a Conclusion, and a Personal Rating. To automatically jump to a particular section of the Guide, check the Contents at the top, find the Part you're looking for, hit 'Ctrl-F' and type the Part's number in. So, if you wanted to jump down to the Wishlists section, you'd type in '2.6' (although, doing this for Wishlists will jump you to here along the way - Just hit 'Find' again).

An example for 'Enbi's Example Method', with a Rating of 4/5, would be:


>>> Part 2 - Existing Distribution Methods

> 2.1 DKP ♥♥♥♥♥ WHEN DONE PROPERLY! See each Example of DKP in use for individual Ratings.

> > > 2.1a Introduction to DKP

Wow, where to start. DKP is probably the most popular Loot Distribution Method you will ever hear about. That doesn't necessarily make it the best, however. The way it works is that members earn points for attending Events, and then use these points to 'purchase' Loot when it drops. It is the age old, standard method of Loot Distribution because, when implemented properly, provides a very balanced, level playing field for LinkShell members to earn their gear.

With every other Distribution Method in this Guide, I would at this point begin listing Pros and Cons, but with DKP I'm gonna use the Examples of DKP in use section below to do this, as there are so many different ways of using DKP that to make any blanket-statements here would be silly.

> > > 2.1b Examples of DKP in use

The way DKP is earned is generally universal - You earn X amount of DKP per unit Time, sometimes with bonuses such as for each Boss Killed, attending the Event on a Job you didn't want to come on, arriving to the Event early/on-time, sticking with the Alliance for the whole planned duration, etc.

As pointed out by lolgaxe and Kinematics, the points earnt (whether they be DKP, EP, or any other Loot Distribution Method) should be tracked by 1 person, and uploaded to the LinkShell’s forums every time a change is made.

An alternative to uploading the DKP values to a forum would be to follow Kinematics’ advice:


In addition, catwho posted this:


The Link to Ismarc’s EQDKP mod can be found here.

In each of the Examples below, I will be referring to 3 Members of an imaginary LinkShell. These 3 Members are:

• LongTimeMember, to represent a Member who has stockpiled alot of DKP over a long period of time.
• ShortTimeMember, to represent a Member who has only just joined the LinkShell so has very few DKP.
• MediumTimeMember, to represent a Member who has been in the LinkShell for sometime inbetween.

Finally, before I actually discuss the examples, I'm gonna give these 3 Members some quantifiable DKP as follows:

5 DKP for ShortTimeMember, 25 DKP for MediumTimeMember, 75 DKP for LongTimeMember.

> > > > > Bidding Wars! ♥♥♥♥♥

Pros: LongTime Members get easy access to well desired Loot.
Cons: Newer Members can get repeatedly screwed over, leading to them quitting the Shell.

Bidding Wars. Oh dear lord, Bidding Wars. Probably the single biggest cause of drama I can think of (except maybe someone faking their own death to transfer servers *COUGH*) The way this works is that, when an item drops that more than 1 Member wants, those Members 'bid' with their DKP.

For example, let's say AwesomeSauceInAnEpicJarItemX (hereby just referred to as 'the item') drops, and conveniently our 3 imaginary Members all want it. MediumTimeMember can Bid just 6 DKP to eliminate ShortTimeMember from the Bidding process, as ShortTime only has 5 DKP to spend. But of course, LongTimeMember can swoop in and Bid 26 DKP in order to then push MediumTimeMember out of the process, too.

This is all well and good, but now you have to realise that LongTime still has 49 DKP left which means that s/he can monopolise item drops for quite some time. This effect isn't as dramatic in our example as the DKP gap is only 50 between MediumTime & LongTime, but in situations where the LongTimeMember has many hundreds of DKP, it can get very frustrating for newer Members, as they'll never get any Loot. This not only leads to an overall slightly less pimped out Alliance after a period of time, but it very commonly leads to said newer Members leaving the Shell, and if this happens too often, you'll end up with 1 or 2 awesomely geared Members but not enough to actually run Events.

> > > > > All or Nothing ♥♥♥♥♥

Pros: Fairest DKP system you can get if you ask me - A level playing field definitely.
Cons: LongTime Members can have an item they've wanted for ages be snapped up by a New Member.

As I said in the Pros for this way of using DKP, it's easily the fairest and offers the most level playing field you can achieve using a DKP system.

Let's go back to our situation when using Bidding Wars!, where all 3 of our imaginary Members want the item. Because LongTimeMember has the highest DKP and wants the item, they get it. Done. Dusted. Pew. But, their DKP is also reset straight back to 0!

What does this mean? Well, because LongTimeMember now has 0 DKP, if another item drops that all 3 imaginary Members want, it's gonna go straight to MediumTimeMember because s/he now has the highest DKP. This of course leads to MediumTime having 0 DKP too. Oh, look, another item that all 3 Members want has just dropped! And, would you have it, NewTimeMember gets it!

This is a very strong system and works really well. It results in an Alliance that is nice and well-rounded gear wise, completely eliminates Loot monopolisation, and encourages Newer Members to put in 100% effort, as they know that they're gonna have a shot at some loot much sooner than using a Bidding Wars! system.

> > > > > Item Shop ♥♥♥♥♥ Takes LOADS of effort and shares the downsides of a Bidding Wars! system.

Pros: LongTime Members get easy access to well desired Loot.
Cons: Same as Bidding Wars!, but takes more effort & is a flawed system.

I, personally, hate this system.


Basically, this works by assigning each item a fixed DKP 'price'. You then have Members who want an item that has dropped 'pay' that price in DKP.

This sucks for multiple reasons. First of all, you have to actually go through the bother of assigning every item a price, then finding that price on a SpreadSheet or whatever once the item has dropped. Secondly, and more importantly, the entire system is flawed in that, if 2 Members want the item and both have enough DKP for it, you (usually) let the person with the higher DKP buy it. It's clumsy & pointless.

Furthermore, Item Shop shares the downfall of Bidding Wars! in that Loot monopolisation can take place. You're basically inviting drama and whatnot, but for more effort on your Shell's Leadership too.

> > > 2.1c My Experiences with DKP

I have, personally, had a rather pleasant time using DKP, although this is partially due to my being able to influence its implementation in the Guilds it was used in. I'd say that there are two key things that any LinkShell wanting to use a DKP system should have: a trustworthy DKP keeper and a fair spending policy.

You'll need the first of these because, if the person keeping track of DKP for your Shell is corrupt (this has happened before), they may be sly and deduct a few DKP here and there. If, however, you have a trustworthy person keep a SpreadSheet and upload it to your Shell's forums every time it is updated, and get each of your Members to track their DKP closely, you can avoid this happened.

The second is basically referring to the Examples of DKP in use above. Pick a good system for your Members to use their DKP, and you'll go far.

> > > 2.1d Conclusion

DKP can be a very good, very fair system that is easy for Members to follow, requiring no maths skills whatsoever (unlike Methods such as EPGP). If an attempt to implement a different Distribution Method fails, DKP will probably always be the default 'backup' method :)

> 2.2 EPGP ♥♥♥♥♥ Somewhat inbetween a Bidding Wars! and All or Nothing DKP system.

> > > 2.2a Introduction to EPGP

Pros: Fantastic Method offering one of if not the most level playing field.
Cons: Requires some maths to find Prio Ratings.

EPGP is somewhat of an offspring of DKP, in that you earn points for attending Events. These points are called 'EP' or 'Experience Points' and are accumulated in pretty much the same style as DKP.

However, there's no buying, no bidding, nadda. Instead, each Member has a 'Priority Ratio' (usually shortened to just 'prio'), which is obtained by dividing your EP by your GP.

Wait, wait, what's GP? Ok, lemme back up a bit. GP stands for 'Gear Points' and is a measure of how much Loot that Member has received over the course of their time with the Shell. Every Member will start off with a default value for their EP and their GP (normally 100 for each). A Member's prio is calculated by dividing a Member's EP by their GP. For example, a New Member with default values of 100 for their EP and GP will have a prio of (100 EP/100 GP) = 1.

When an item that Members want drops, the prio for each Member is calculated like above, and whoever has the highest prio gets the item. They also gain a fixed amount of GP. This means that the prio for the Member who got the item will now be lower, giving other Members a shot at the next piece of Loot that drops.

If the prio for two Members both wanting the same item is equal (mainly happens during the first few Events that the Shell does using EPGP), the Members will both Lot the item, and whoever wins it gets the GP added.

> > > 2.2b Example of EPGP in use

Just like in our examples for DKP, I'll be using 3 imaginary LinkShell Members, LongTimeMember, MediumTimeMember, and ShortTimeMember, each with an EP, GP and prio as listed below:

• LongTimeMember has 1000 EP and 500 GP, giving him a prio of 2.
• ShortTimeMember has 150 EP and 100 GP, giving him a prio of 1.5.
• MediumTimeMember has 600 EP and 200 GP, giving him a prio of 3.

The first thing to notice here is that MediumTimeMember has a higher prio than the LongTimeMember, with almost half as much time spent doing Events, too. This should give you a clue as to how fair an EPGP system is :)

Now, let's assume that this imaginary LinkShell adds on 100 GP for every piece of gear you get (note that, in reality, you can customise the system so that certain super-sought-after pieces add much more GP, and vice-versa. It's a really good system for fair customisation, unlike DKP).

So, a piece of gear drops that all 3 of our imaginary Members wanna get their mitts on. Well, as we can see, MediumTimeMember has the highest prio of 3, so s/he gets the item, and 100 GP. This means that MediumTimeMember now has a prio of 2 (600 EP/300 GP)

If another item drops, MediumTimeMember and LongTimeMember will both Lot on it as they have equal priority ratings. If MediumTimeMember wins again, s/he will have a prio of just 1.5, tying them with ShortTimeMember. In just two item drops, a New Member has the same priority to items that a MediumTimeMember does. This creates a very level playing field.

> > > 2.2c My Experiences with EPGP

Hopefully it will have come across in my writing above that I love the EPGP system! It's a fantastically fair system that both rewards long time Members of a Guild, but also prevents total monopolisation. Sure, you can win a few items in a row, but your prio will be plummeting with each until eventually you're being out-prioritised. This Method is also drama-free, and I recommend that anyone who's even the slightest bit interested in the EPGP concept should definitely give it a try.

I personally used EPGP as a New Member to a Guild myself, and I can honestly say it's awesome. No two ways around it.

> > > 2.2d Conclusion

A fantastic Distribution Method. The only slight downside is that it needs a bit of maths because of having to find the prio, but that can be easily done using a SpreadSheet.

> 2.3 Free Lot ♥♥♥♥♥ Too much of a random element for most people, but can work.

> > > 2.3a Introduction to Free Lot

Pros: Unless people are exceptionally (un)lucky, monopolisation is impossible.
Cons: Distribution comes down to luck, rather than rewarding those who put in the effort.

Free Lot is just simply that - Anyone and everyone in the Party/Alliance can Lot on a piece of Loot. I've met many people with a wide variety of opinions on this. Some swear by it, insisting it's the best way. Others swear the opposite after losing that 1 piece you've been after for months/years to some New Member, who only goes and leaves the Guild/Shell (that you've been a member of for 2 years) just two weeks later. This obviously didn't happen to me. *COUGH*

> > > 2.3b An Example of Free Lot in use

Admittedly, this example is gonna be pretty darn short. As per the common trend by now, we'll use LongTimeMember, MediumTimeMember, and ShortTimeMember.

So, an item drops that all 3 of the above Members want. They all cast Lots on it:

ShortTimeMember Lotted the highest for the item, so the Game will automatically give it to him/her.

> > > 2.3c My Experiences with Free Lot

You probably got the gist from my Introduction to Free Lot, but I disgress. As much I hate using this for Bosses/NMs that drop summat I really want, it is admittedly and awesome system to use when no one is bothered much about the Loot, or it's a Speed Run, or a 'Gear your Alt' run, where 99% of the people in the Alliance wouldn't be interested in the Loot anyway. In these situations, it speeds things up and saves alot of hassle that generally isn't needed.

> > > 2.3d Conclusion

Can be a great Method when you're blitzing through content without much care for the Loot that is dropping, but when tackling a progression kill or content you've only recently gotten on to farm status, I'd seriously recommend not using a Free Lot system.

> 2.4 Loot Councils ♥♥♥♥♥ A Method that focuses on overall LinkShell progression rather than individual progression.

> > > 2.4a An Introduction to Loot Councils

Pros: Person who needs the item the most, gets it. LinkShell benefits more as a whole.
Cons: Council can be 'corrupt' or misguided when making decisions, prioritising friends & longtime Members.

So, what's a Loot Council? Well, instead of talking about a Loot Council, I'll talk about what Loot Councilling. Loot Councilling is basically where items get distributed according to who needs a particular piece of Loot the most.

For example, let's say Person A has rubbish shoes, and Person B has awesome shoes. If a pair of uber shoes drops that is an upgrade to both Person A's shoes and Person B's, then technically, Person A needs these uber shoes more than Person B and the LinkShell as a whole will gain more benefit out of him/her getting them, than if Person B were to get them.

Now, a Loot Council itself is basically the group of people that make this decision. Sometimes, it'll be the entire Alliance (everyone discusses who should get the item). Other times, the Council consists of the Members generally accepted as the 'best' or most knowledgeable.

> > > 2.4b An Example of Loot Councilling in use

I'm not gonna lie, I couldn't really introduce the concept of Loot Councilling without completely removing the need for a seciont like this, so I'm gonna skip it and let you move on the the next part ;)

> > > 2.4c My Experiences with Loot Councilling

I actually think Loot Councilling is a great Distribution Method, providing the Council in question isn't 'corrupt' or misguided. The entire system is set sail for fail if the Council is prioritising friends or Members of the Shell who've been there a long time, rather than the people who actually need the item the most. The problem is mitigated slightly when the entire Alliance acts as the Council, but can still go horribly wrong if people start ganging up on someone who wants the item.

> > > 2.4d Conclusion

A fantastic Distribution Method providing the people enforcing it haven't got ulterior motives and are not 'corrupt'. Corrupt Loot Councils have led to many a broken Guild back in WoW, but when a Loot Council does its job properly and successfully, this Method shines.

> 2.5 Loot Lists ♥♥♥♥♥ Very good for ensuring fair Distribution over a long period of time.

> > > 2.5a An Introduction to Loot Lists

Pros: One of the most fair Distribution systems over a long period of time.
Cons: Weak Method for the first few weeks/months of use. Generally used for long-term arrangements.

Not to be confused with Wishlists!

Loot Lists go by quite a few different names, but they are not the same as a Wishlist! Jump to section 2.6 for Wishlists.

A Loot List is, in its simplest form, a collection of Lists representing various things, whether they be for a general Gear Slot or a particular piece of Gear, and each List comprises a list of the names of people who would want that item/slot/etc.

It's much easier to explain this Method using an example, so please pop down a little but to section 2.5b.

> > > 2.5b An Example of Loot Lists in use

Warning: this is quite a wierd concept to try an explain so I'll do my best. If you understand it straight away then either one or both of us is awesome. Hmmk.

I'm gonna make these example Lists very short, with just 5-10 people on each. In reality, you can end up having quite a few more.

The first step with creating a Loot Lists Method is to draw up some Lists. (We're doing good so far methinks). So, to keep things simple, I'm gonna have 4 Lists: 1 for Tanking Gear, 1 for Healing Gear, 1 for Magic DD Gear and 1 for Melee DD Gear. The basic premise is to first write down the names of everyone who might want a piece of Gear from those Lists, and then randomly shuffle them around each. It's perfectly fine to have one person in multiple lists (it is, in fact, the whole point - as I'll explain in a bit.

	 Tank		Healer		MagicDD		MeleeDD 
 
	PersonA		PersonB		PersonC		PersonD 
	PersonE		PersonF		PersonG		PersonH 
	PersonH		PersonI		PersonI		PersonJ 

So, there's my Lists. Yes, yes, they're not that shuffled. It's just an example! Anyway. Now that we have our Lists, let's imagine we've gone to some Event and a piece of Tanking Gear drops.

Well, PersonA is at the top of the 'Tank' List, so s/he gets the item, and then gets moved to the bottom of the Tank List. That means the new list will look like this:

	 Tank		Healer		MagicDD		MeleeDD 
 
	PersonH		PersonB		PersonC		PersonD 
	PersonE		PersonF		PersonG		PersonH 
	PersonA		PersonI		PersonI		PersonJ 

Notice how PersonH is now at the top of the 'Tank' List. This means that, the next time a piece of Tanking Gear drops, PersonH will have priority for it.

Also realise that, as I mentioned earlier, you can have many lists for pretty much anything. A List for a particular Chest Piece, for example. Basically, the entire point of a Loot List Method is to create a system whereby everyone is in turn for everything, and doesn't need to spend a universal 'currency' of sorts (such as DKP and EPGP), to get gear.

If you followed all that, I applaud you. I couldn't really think of a great way of explaining the whole concept :)

> > > 2.5c My Experienced with Loot Lists

I've found Loot Lists to a really nice, oddball Method for Distributing Loot that works exceptionally well in the long term. If your Lists are too long, though, it can cause frustration, which is where Wishlists (discussed in the final section of Part 2) would have the advantage.

The only other downside than that is keeping and managing the various Lists, but really, with a simply SpreadSheet, that shouldn't deter you.

> > > 2.5c Conclusion

If you know for a fact that you're gonna be slogging it together as an Alliance for atleast six months, this Method really starts to come in to it's own. You'll find that your Members will always put in 100% effort because they know that they can't have the drops they're after monopolised, and that, the sooner they get X Boss/NM down, the sooner it'll be their turn in line for that juicy item!

> 2.6 Wishlists ♥♥♥♥♥ Z0mg he's almost finished typing!

> > > 2.6a An Introduction to Wishlists

Pros: Everyone is guaranteed their items eventually.
Cons: If the time between Wishlist rewrites isn't long enough, the Method fails.

Wishlists are very similar to Loot Lists, but differ in a few ways. The basic concept is that everyone in the LinkShell draws up a Wishlist of 10 (or more, or less, that's up to you) pieces of Loot that they want from the content your Shell can do, and then ranks them in order from the thing they want the most to the thing they want the least. This Wishlist is then submitted to the LinkShell (usually via forums), and cannot be changed for a long period of time (6 months at the minimum works best).

When an item drops, it goes straight to whoever has highest on their Wishlist. If two or more Members have it at the same highest position, then they can all cast Lots for it.

Note that, in addition to this, Wishlists differ from Loot Lists in that once a Member has the item they want, the other items on the Wishlist stay in the positions they are. For example, if after putting ItemA at #10 on your Wishlist, even if you get every item you ranked as #1-9, ItemA will still be at #10.

> > > 2.6b An Example of Wishlists in use

Let's take the Wishlists of 3 imaginary Members, PersonA, PersonB, and PersonC. Their Wishlists are ranking ItemA, ItemB & ItemC in the order that they want them. These Wishlists are below:

	PersonA		PersonB		PersonC 
 
	 ItemA		 ItemB		 ItemC 
	 ItemB		 ItemA		 ItemB 
	 ItemC		 ItemC		 ItemA 

Using these Wishlists, I can give you some examples of what would happen if a particular Item dropped. For example, if ItemA drops, it will go to PersonA as it is highest on his/her Wishlist. The Wishlists will now become:

	PersonA		PersonB		PersonC 
 
	 		 ItemB		 ItemC 
	 ItemB		 ItemA		 ItemB 
	 ItemC		 ItemC		 ItemA 

From here, if ItemB drops, it will go straight to PersonB as it is highest on his/her Wishlist. The Wishlists will become:

	PersonA		PersonB		PersonC 
 
	 		 		 ItemC 
	 ItemB		 ItemA		 ItemB 
	 ItemC		 ItemC		 ItemA 

If ItemB drops again, then because PersonA and PersonC both have that item ranked at #2, and no one has it ranked higher, PersonA and PersonC can both cast Lots on the item. If PersonC won, the Wishlists would become:

	PersonA		PersonB		PersonC 
 
	 		 		 ItemC 
	 ItemB		 ItemA		  
	 ItemC		 ItemC		 ItemA 

As you can see, the positions that you ranked each item on your Wishlist is static, and you have to wait until the next Wishlist rewrite before being able to move them around.

> > > 2.6c My Experiences with Wishlists

In my opinion, Wishlists are fantastic. The best thing about them, apart from being really fair, is that if your LinkShell advances to a new stage of content that you couldn't progress through when the Wishlists were written, you can simply have everyone write another Wishlist that contains items only found in that new Event, and simply use the old Wishlists when clearing the content they were written for, and use the new Wishlists whenever progressing through the new Events! :)

> > > 2.6c Conclusion

Providing you have a decently large gap between Wishlist rewrites, this Method is absolutely handsdown fantastic - I know the most common gap is somewhere between 6-9 months, but this is flexible and can be customised according to the needs of your particular group.

>>> Part 3 - Creating your own Methods

Yep, you read it right - Creating your own Methods. How'd you think things like DKP even came about? Someone thought them up, of course! With a little patience, experimentation and experience, you can easily come up with your own Loot Distribution Methods.

Whether it be through combining some or all of the existing Methods that I've discussed, or by your own pure genius in coming up with a completely new Method, it can actually be tremendous fun to have a bash at it.

Right here, right now, I'll give you an example. How about merging DKP's Item Shop with Free Lot? Assign each item a price in DKP, and then make every Member who wants to cast Lots on the item have to pay that much DKP to even be allowed to cast a Lot. For example, if ItemA has a value of 50 DKP, everyone who wants to cast a Lot on it must have atleast 50 DKP, which they burn to be able to cast Lots. Didn't win the item? You still spent the 50 DKP. This makes sure that only longtime Members of the Shell can Free Lot on certain items. You see? That doesn't sound half bad, and I just came up with it on the spot!

Give it a try some time - You never know, you might be the inventor of the next 'big thing' in terms of MMO Loot Distribution :)

>>> Part 4 - Conclusion

Wow. So I started writing this about 6 hours ago to pass the time and now look where we are! If anyone at all finds this Guide helpful, it'll make my day :)

A very good point by lolgaxe: When using or joining a Shell that uses any sort of points-based system (such as DKP, EPGP, etc), there should be 100% transparency. Ie, there should be a thread on your Shell's forums dedicated to the posting of the Shell's DKP stockpiles. This thread should be kept very much up to date, and all Members should have easy, ready access to it.

Note: I tried to weed out as many of my incorrect references as possible (I kept calling Alliances Raids, NMs Bosses, LinkShells Guilds, etc etc) - Sorry if there are still alot in there. Bad habits, hehe.


Edited, Feb 13th 2010 6:14pm by Enbi

I've found that with FFXI's inconsistent drop rates, doing a hybrid of DKP and "Wishlists" works out well.

For example, with Dynamis, there's no need to have any kind of restrictions on the majority of city gear. You're going to have extras flying around any way, and new people shouldn't be prevented on lotting what would otherwise just fall to the ground. But for the rarer pieces from Northlands and CoP areas, it's important to have waiting lists. Veterans get discouraged when they see their #1 wish list item go to a newbie who just joined last week.

Looks pretty good. Ive been in mostly points based wishlist hybrid shells and my shell runs off a similar model. Really in FFXI state a hybrid system that can keep the most people happy is the best, since obtaining new people, training them, and getting them to a reliable state is a large hassle.

Very nicely written. Couple things I'd add:

1) If you're using spreadsheets to track the info, and, as lolgaxe mentioned, you want to keep things transparent, I'd suggest setting up a spreadsheet using Google Docs. You can set access restrictions to who can see it by Google account, or just let everyone in the world read it (the HTML links are long hash keys, so it's only practical to get to it by providing the link in a forum post or similar anyway).

This way everyone can see exactly what's in it at any time, and it's usually a lot easier to deal with than trying to format complicated data into a forum post. Also important, though, is that it allows you to see the revision history. That goes a long way in helping keep things transparent, since you can always go back and see who made what changes if something looks wonky, and it's far more difficult to mess with than editing forum posts.


2) Consider the type of activity you're doing, and the relationship between effort and reward, before choosing a system. DKP can work fine for things like Sky, especially where you can bid for the relatively short loot pools before each god fight and not be bothered with the time it takes. Somewhat less so in Dynamis where allotments have to be done on the fly, and you don't want to have to wait for people to decide whether it's worth bidding X points for whatever armor just dropped. Doesn't work very well at all in Salvage with the extreme ratios between time attended and items dropped.

For Salvage, my own shell uses a slightly modified Wishlist system (5 item limit), where an extra point of priority is granted for every 3 months of attendance.

Thanks for the replies everyone - I've been away from my PC for the weekend so hadn't had a chance to check up on the thread.





Two fantastic replies, thankyou both! Once I get some time I'll include similar such info in the original post, accredited to you two. Also need to fix a load of spelling errors that I've noticed, heh.

Nobody ever talks about if people actually deserve an item in terms of effort put forth. Attendance is nice, but just because I can log in on a biweekly schedule doesn't make me deserving. I never saw why people equated presence with desire. If anyone truly desires their shiny from Dynamis-Hellfrozenover, they'd desire and work on or already own the accessory gear from AH or other venues that can be handled on one's own time.

Not working on your job is telling me you don't want to lot for it IMO. No reason 17 other people should prevent you from completing your campaign to make no progress.

I understand his point though, I've said for sometime that the biggest flaw of a points based system is you don't have to be any good at your job or even have useful jobs to get nice things, you just have to turn up to events a lot.

While there will always be people who put forth more effort and make a bigger contribution to the shell than others, the philosophy I've adopted is that if a member is worth having, then he will be rewarded with gear and gil just as any other member is under our system. We don't attempt to break it down any more than that because it's almost impossible to do in an accurate and objective manner and will certainly result in drama.

If you stick to that philosophy, and if you truly believe that someone doesn't deserve the loot he's getting, the only remedy is to remove him from the shell.

And with the post just above, we have come full circle to the root of the problem both in game with loot, and in life. It is soooo much easier/safer to pick apart someone's idea or plan than it is to get off your ded a$$ and come up with a good one yourself.

There are all sorts of fair ways of divvying up the loot, nice job OP.

No, you can't make or use a system that is perfect or that will take the asshats out of circumventing the system.

But you sure as hell can take the asshats out of the LS.

Das Boot! Ya!!

Bottom line... When you join an LS, read their rules and loot system, and if you don't like them, just say no. It isn't hard. Stop the cycle of joining and ********

and stickie prz for OP

A really awesome discussion going on now - Keep it up :) Unfortunately I've still been unable to get at my PC for ages due to lots of work going on at the moment.

BUT, 'tis the weekend! Hurrah! So, I'll get busy updating the OP & correcting all the spelling mistakes as soon as I get back from my University Interview tomorrow afternoon ^^'

Ciao,
Ash.

Hmm, good point. The issue concerning the handling of new members is debatable and you might find that different LinkShells would handle it differently.

Probably a decently-ish method of solving this would be to allow the new member to create a wishlist half the size of everyone else and shift the rankings down. For example, if the members who were in the LinkShell at Wishlist rewriting time are allowed to rank 10 Items, newer members would only be able to rank 5 items, and these items would assume positions 5-10 on the 'priority ladder', so to speak.

	OldMember	NewMember 
 
	 ItemA		 	  
	 ItemB		 	  
	 ItemC                    
	 ItemD                    
	 ItemE                    
	 ItemF		  ItemA   
	 ItemG		  ItemB   
	 ItemH		  ItemC   
	 ItemI		  ItemD   
	 ItemJ	 	  ItemE   

So maybe summat like that, I dunno. Your opinions?


Edited, Feb 13th 2010 9:51pm by Enbi

I don't see how the all or nothing is the fairest thing imaginable.
LongTimeMember 400 points
ShortTimeMember 20 points

Mediumish item drops. Both want.

LongTimeMember has to put his entire life toward said item? Doesn't seem fair.

Not saying our system is the fairest thing around, but we all seem to like it a lot.

Wishlist + bid system.
Pros: Things go for market value.
Methods for new + long term members to receive items without blowing they're whole tenure.
"Cons": New members have less access to the super cool items.
I feel this is a "con" as long timers do deserve this bonus.
For 2 months a wish list is locked in.
2 High tier
5 Medium
3 Low

Item drops:
Everyone in high tier keeps publicly bidding til all but 1 pass.
Clearly if nobody is in high tier, the Mediums bid out.
Ditto low tier if no Medium.
If it's on nobody's list then it's free to bid from anyone able to wear it.

This allows long term members to secure those really cool items in High tier with high point bids.
This also allows newer members to High tier what long termers may consider a Medium ish item and have that item before the long timer for minimal points (by not bidding against the long timer)
The long timer does not feel cheated out of his long time stint because his eyes are currently on a loftier goal.
And maybe now the high tier is clear of that 1 item, so Mediums can bid it out next round.

You give me flowers you gain points.
You give me chocolate you gain points.
You take me out for dinner, you gain points.

Should be easy, huh?



On Topic: Very nice guide. I have alwasy been curious how many LSes deal with different points systems, and this gives quite a nice view of common alternatives.