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Vana'diel Bestiary: Maat  

Family:NPC
Found in:Ru'Lude Gardens
Found at Location:H - 5
Mob Functions:
Stolen Items:
Involved in Quests:
Updated: Wed Aug 24 01:18:17 2011

Maat Picture

On your own the most you can accomplish is achieving level 50. This is where your average adventurer caps at, but of course, not everyone is happy being just an average adventurer. This is where Maat comes in. He may seem like an ordinary old man to you, but this old man is a master of all the western jobs and his skills and effort date back to the Crystal War. While his methods may seem awkward, he is whom you speak with to break the barrier and achieve a higher level.

In a series of 5 tests he slowly molds your average adventurer into a true hero. His final step, however, is the toughest of them all; defeating Maat himself in Mortal Kom...erm, defeating him in a spar match. It doesn't matter which job you play as for he has mastered them all:

Specific Job Guides

This page last modified 2008-03-12 23:00:54.

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Cant speak with maat
# May 06 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
Whenever I try to go to the area where Maat is. It says I need an Archducal Audience Permit..Where, or how do i get one of these????
Beating Maat as Monk
# Feb 23 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
I finally beat Maat as a level 69 MONK last night. All the strategies I looked up at the various sites were garbage for me. I finally used a word of mouth strategy and gave it my own personal spin and he went down easily. It took me 8 times. You have to do everything perfectly. With that said, there was a rumor long ago that whatever stats from gear you went in with, he had. Then they said that rumor was not true or it had been fixed. Well I finally went in naked at the start and he was so easy on that fight I only needed two WS's (instead of 3) and no heals. I got him down in 7 minutes flat with 406 HP to spare.

Gear: Full AF (macroed in when using JA's and WS's) Scorpion Harnes, Palla's Bracelets, Chivalry Chain, Life Belt, Tactical Magitians Hooks (or whatever they called lol)

sleep potion with opopo necklace to 100 tp
regen drink
Defense food
Blink Band
boost to 10 or 11
focus dodge

Engage Maat without hitting. Use 2 hour. Then chi blast. Turn into him. Then Howling Fist. keep hitting until tp is 100% again and WS again. At this point if he isn't down you may need some healing potions and Chakra usage. Use Icarus wing and use final WS.

I only needed the 2nd WS to take him down on lights day with a new moon.
wtf?
# Dec 03 2008 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
wait what? i have to beat maat to get past level 50?
wtf?
# Dec 03 2008 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
No, you only need to beat him to get past 70
Testimony Turmoil
# Oct 13 2008 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
16 posts
Might be a newbie question but who knows, maybe other people are wondering this as well. Long shot, but here it goes. If you defeat Maat is your testimony usable to try him again later? An other thought, has anyone tried to use said testimony to influence him in campaign? Or quite simply is said testimony complete garbage after being used once? Thoughts?
Testimony Turmoil
# Oct 13 2008 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
Its essentially garbage after its use.
WHM PLD WAR
# Sep 26 2008 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
Maat fight x3 first as whm cause i heard it was easy and 1/1 with whm job.
Next i thought pld and thought it would be tough but 1/1 with pld and beat record at the time. Then war and also beat record 1/1 on war job. Now i'm off to do samurai v maat. i'm hopeing another 1/1. But i'd really like to thank everyone for putting in there stat's on how to beat maat cause i couldn't have done it without reading what other's have written in here. Good Luck to everyone versing maat the old fool. Time to kick *** again. LOL.
Monk Fight
# Jan 12 2008 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
was wondering how difficult the monk fight for maat is? I figured I'd get the opo necklace sleep to 300% tp grab some defense food, counterstance, focus, dodge, Raging fists his ***, hundred fists and then weapon skill him everytime after that lol. sound like an ok plan? lol
WotG
# Dec 19 2007 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
Also found in East Ronfaure [S] near Xarcabard [S] zone in WotG. :P
I FAILEDAR!!! AARRRGH!
# Nov 21 2006 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
Attempted the maat battle for the first time.. after watching various films of others sleep up 100% tp, guillotine, vile +1 icarus, guillotine >WINRAR!
I felt confident and prepped up in the same way, SE LS guillotine 1400dmg, stun vile +1 icarus and guillotine #2 for 980dmg.. he has round 1/4 hp left and have 0.. so I have come to realize that I don't really like Maat that much...
Maat Fight
# Sep 18 2006 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
OK i did the MAAT fight as a 70WAR and broke the record, cleared him in 2:23.

This is what i did. Went in and hit defender (wanted to be able to take a hit while i built up TP) At 720 HP i used 2X Hi-potion +3, at 100TP i dropped defender, used Beserk, Aggressor, Mighty Strikes, Warcry and WS with Rampage (hit for 989), used Icarus Wing, Rampage again for 883 and put my Axe away, fight was done. He took my HP down to 300 from 1260. Clear time was 2:23.

Hope this helps any WAR with the MAAT fight. Good Luck.
omgdrglol
# Aug 18 2006 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
yeah maat death beat record on first attempt. dont slate the job slate the player. kicked his butt in 4 minutes.
How much???
# Aug 14 2006 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
How many HP does he have?
How much???
# Aug 16 2006 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
How many HP does he have?


As far as anyone knows, Maat has as much HP as you do. But When I fought him I took no chance(WAR71) and used the basic preps for a meely. When I {Berserk}{Aggressor}{Warcry}{Mighty Strikes}, I walked in close, did a Double attack at 280-320 each, then {Raging Rush} for 2127, used the Icras Wing and Did it again for 1384,(( He already quit after the first WS, lol)) So if I were to guess, Maat has about 1300- 2500 HP but had decent defense.

Edited, Aug 16th 2006 at 4:59pm EDT by ShadowTrebor
How much???
# Dec 03 2008 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
That wasn't your first fight then, if you were 71
#REDACTED, Posted: Aug 17 2006 at 4:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You were a 71 warrior fighting Maat eh? :o
How much???
# Aug 16 2006 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
i'm currently 0/3 on him...
i managed to hit him with 3 guillotines each one 700-800 damage..
altought he healed back w a hit about 230 hp, i hitted him (with WS and regular melee hits) for about 2400 damage.. i have (as lv 70 drk) about 1100 hp
Do u think i can kill him in a way similar to the elvaan drk who posted before here?
I mean.. same blablah sleep+blink+sushi
then last resort+ guillottine, vile elixir+1, stun icarus and one more guillotine?
Maat must be at least an even match... on IT colibrì i do 1200+guillotine so i think this can work... i want some tips from more experienced players...

(side note: 1200 guillotine with ACC setup, dunno how much damage i can do w str+setup)
RDM Maat
# Aug 14 2006 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
well, first off



nomatter what level, he can use Asuran Fists.




now, for RDM Maat, run in, go as far back as you can get, and sleep him. dispel, and cast spells in this order Stoneskin>Blink>Bind>Protect>Shell then nuke him with Aero III. sleep him again fast, rinse and repeat. if he should cast a single spell, and remove any portion of Blink (Stone- diaga) recast Blink. its so damn useful. make SURE your buffs are always up, and then nuke him. keep nuking, about 3 times, till he gets to 60% hp, and then chainspell his ***** ***. make sure you're far away, and then chaincast. convert when you feel necessary, use vile when you feel necessary (vile is most useful when he's close to you, melee'ing you, it recovers HP and MP.)



when i won, i didnt lose a single point of HP. it may be luck, or it may be the way i played. some mix of the two.



good luck guys
Re: Instant Win vs. Maat
# May 31 2006 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
Atm I know of a rumor of 2 jobs that can Instant Win Maat. Apparently ALL jobs can do it under different conditions.

The two I know are:

Warrior, Create a Self-SkillChain
Thief, Steal from Maat (Not sure if it has to be sucsessful)

Does anyone know the conditions for Samurai?
Re: Instant Win vs. Maat
# Sep 04 2006 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
How did you go? Did any of the Instant wins workout?

Elania
Re: Instant Win vs. Maat
# Aug 15 2006 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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213 posts
i've never heard that about warrior...but the one about Thf is true...i'll test the warrior one later
dark knight maat fight
# May 15 2006 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
so far maat fight 0/3. this is what i have tried.
1: go in naked
2: put on all gear, slept to 150% tp
3: used blink head gear , and mithra meatkabob
4: changed head gear to af healm, changed neck gear to re-raise gorget
5: engaged maat with souleater+last resort. missed hit guillotine= 1300 + dmg
6:maat hit with bio 2
7: hit elixer+ 1 and icarus wing, second guillotine = 600+ dmg
8: maat used blood weapon hits me for 250+ drained hp
9: stunned him hit him for 160+ hp maat hits one of my shadows...and the rest was sad...took me down again for the 3rd time
so im going with shadowhampsters advice cause this isnt working...lol..
#REDACTED, Posted: Aug 17 2006 at 4:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And you didn't blood weapon him?
67NIN vs maat
# Apr 12 2006 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
beat this as 67NIN. very simple. required no HPpotions

went inside BC with no gear on, once in equip all.

went @ exactly at 18:00(nighttime start) so i can have +10 eva from Ninja Hakama.

i had total of 68 eva(10 from food),+7 eva skill from torque.

took food(Jack-o-Lantern +10 acc +10 eva)

activated - reraise II hairpin

used OpoOpo-Necklace with sleeping potion(took about 4-5 to get my TP 100%+)

engaged maat hit off his shadows, used blind,slow,para(sticks very easly)

was hitting him for 25-35, jus blink tanked til his HP was about 25% gone.

used Blade Jin+ icarus wing + blade Jin
after the ws's he was down to 35% HP left

he didnt use Afist once, but he used Mijin Gakure twice.took my HP to 600 from 1080. if ur good at blink tank and have enough eva, then he will hardly touch u except for the 2hr he does & the Afist.few more hits and was done.
4:35 mins :)

hope this info helps u nins out there waiting to fight maat ^^b GL

Maats Fight
# Mar 30 2006 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
hey

I'm fighting Maat as a Rdm, and i was wondering that how many Aero IIIs will it take to kill him. I'm 0/5 on him. My next plan is to get to delevel down to 69 because i heard that he cant use Astran Fist at 69. So then when i fight Maat next time i will use a Dragon's Chroincles it gives me exp then i will go to level 70 but i will have full MP and HP. Then i'm going to get a spider torque which does enfebbling skill +5 so that it helps with the sleeps. I'm going to get loads of potions and int gear. Is it true that if you trade Maat the test when you are wearing nothing that it will help you out with the Fight. Please i want to beat Maat. Anybody that know anything about the questions i just asked please repond back thank you =D /bow /kneel


later
RDM Maat Fight
# Aug 17 2006 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
1/5 on Maat as RDM. Here's what I did/used.(I'll answer your Aero3 question first.) Copied part of my LS post.
Aero3 (xxx damage) Aero3 - (319) Aero3 (158) Aero3 (319) Aero3 (319)Aero3 (319)Aero3 (319)Aero3 (319)
Looks like 8 Aero 3's for 2072+ Damage.

Food: Melon Pie+1 (+5 int / +30 MP)
Staff: Wind/Ice/Dark Staffs
Neck: Spider Torque/Elemental Torque
Feet: Hume: Custom M Boots (+3 int)
Gloves: Sly Gauntlets (+3 int)
AF: Body/Legs/Hat
Rings: MP+ / INT+3(x2 for nuke)
Earrings: Morion / Moldavite(Magic attack+5)
Back: Empowering Mantle (MP) / Red Cape+1 (nuke)
Waist: Powerful Rope / Royal Knight's Belt
option: Blue Cotahardie for nuke. Just macro AF back for Enfeebling.

Vile Elixir (Medicine effect~)(Didn't use)
Vile Elixir+1 (Medicine Effect~)(I used)
Remedyx12 (Not sure if i used any)
Hi-potions/Hi-Ethers(Faster than X-potion)
Yagudo drink x3(Why waste your MP?
Persikos au Lait x1(Lasts 10 mins)

If anyone wants more info, let me know.
E-mail: Svtsylph@yahoo.com (I will copy/paste my LS posts to an e-mail.
RE: Maats Fight
# Apr 04 2006 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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161 posts
I have finally beat maat after 8 attempts.... But from my experience as a SAM, I never saw him do Asuran Fist, and I won by entering with all my gear on. I pretty much got owned the 2 times I tried not wearing gear while entering. It's not a confirmed strategy to enter without gear, but it can't hurt to try. Good Luck fighting him though hes a pain.
2nd attempt
# Mar 24 2006 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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161 posts
I am now..... 0/2 on maat as a SAM. I tried once at 68 and once at 69.

The 1st time he stunned me for about 5 seconds, and took me down into red, at that point, no potions or anything would save me.

The 2nd attempt at 69, I failed due to missing with a Gekko causing the SC not to activate, and him to be left at 5% life and my death.

Just some humble advice to those attempting to defeat maat as a SAM.... Wait until level 70 and wear JSE, cause if you miss with a WS, you can consider yourself dead.

Added 3/29/06
I am no 0/5 on Maat. Mattr of fact I fought him twice today. The 1st time... got him down to 3% then i hit my Tachi:Gekko macro, and he hit me with shoulder tackle 1st and killed me.
2nd attempt on the day I got absolutly owned. I don't think I could have planned better for this attempt considering 4 failed attempts. I walk in, Blink up(which did me no good, it blocked 0 of his hits) I walked in and got 1 WS off before he killed me. Tachi:Yukikaze, then he 2hr, and Spinning attack me, for stun, then he does Liquifaction SC, then does Combo again for 400 dmg. {death} {Can I have it?}

/sigh..... someday maybe i'll beat this old {******* Sword}


Edited, Wed Mar 29 15:00:41 2006
Just Pwnd that old fool
# Mar 24 2006 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
Ok after several faild attempts, i finally beat that old mans **** as a Paladin. I tried usin Allas strategy and it was a joke. 1 do not equip DD gear... 2 do not use an Icarus wing at the start of the fight, you wont be able to use any more meds... heres how i did it:

i buffed up first and downed a yag drink and a Flask of pamam au lait... regen and refresh... i invested in em and i suggest u do.

i then began gainin tp usin sleep pots and opo-opo neclace while gettin back to full hp and mp. Tp to 100%

Went in and immidiately flashed him, and used Rampart, began fightin... when Rampart ran out i used Sentinal. I also used a friends method of hitting hiim, using a hi-potion... hitting him, pot.. so on and so on. I wouldnt recomend fightin him without at least 15 pots and about 5 hi-ethers. I brought a Vile Elixer but i didnt even use it..

At around half of his health he invincibled. I flashed him and began kiteing him. Once it droped i began fighting again. I had to heal up since kiting took a bit of hp... Make sure u Flash him every chance you get.

Now this is where id die... at around 1/8 of his hp, he would Asuran Fist me... and id be done for. So when he got close to that point and healed to full. I had my 2 hr maccro waitin for him to start blabbin about how i wasnt rdy yet and to go home.. as soon as you see that you have to 2hr.. or your done.. he will asuran fist u like no tomorrow and maat bash u if u survive a few so you will be incapable of anything.

Once i invincibled, i Swift Bladed him (saved up tp for that point) and he was done... took me 8 mins, 55 secs... but who cares about a record right? That fool had to recognize who the True knight was...

Anyway, this is what worked for me. I hope some of you plds like myself (broke as a joke and couldnt afford anything fancy for teh fight) can use some of this info too you'r advantage.. Gl and give him hell!
there are no words to describe how I feel
# Mar 19 2006 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
Wow, I really hate Maat. I just got disconnected as I was running up to fight him. Got myself logged back in and I was kicked out of the circle with my torn testimony. I seem to have the worst luck with Maat. Let's not forgot the previous times I've fought him and he's managed to resist my nukes. t(-_-t)
Red Mage Testimony
# Feb 16 2006 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
Does anyone know where the red mage testimony is at. Is it hard? What is capped for enfebbling at level 70.
Thank you for your help


xandralox
server Qestzalcoatl
RE: Red Mage Testimony
# Feb 16 2006 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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52 posts
"Does anyone know where the red mage testimony is at."

Click Item Lookup, then type in "Red Mage's Testimony" and click search... In case you don't want to do that here is where you get it:

Dropped off Mobs:
* Aura Pot (Level: 75 - 80) (Shrine of Ru'Avitau)
* Dustbuster (Level: 73 - 76) (Ve'Lugannon Palace)
* Hover Tank (Level: 64 - 67) (Temple of Uggalepih)
* Magic Pot (Level: 68 - 70) (Delkfutt's Tower Upper)
* Ruby Quadav (Level: 69 - 70) (Qulun Dome)
* Sprinkler (Level: 73 - 76) (Ru'Aun Gardens)

Copied directly from the item listing on this site. I'm pretty sure some of those levels may be wrong, but I can't be possitive.
I have farmed 2 testimonies for myself so far, the first from Ruby Quadav (Dropped on the second kill, supposedly a 50% drop rate), the second from a Hover Tank (Dropped on the first kill, no idea what the drop rate is here, I may have just gotten lucky). To make it go faster I had help in getting both but Ruby Quadav and Hover Tank are both soloable and make for second practice to get ready for Maat. If you have Sky then I have heard that it is easier to get off the mobs there but again, I can't say this from experience.

"What is capped for enfebbling at level 70."

Here is a site that should be of some help to you:
http://www.all-final.com/ff11/skill_chart.htm
at 70 enfeebling caps at 251.

Edited, Thu Feb 16 16:41:34 2006
maat that crazy man
# Feb 14 2006 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
Hey my main character is Xandralox, and I'm a 66rdm/33whm and i was just wanting to know what items,tips,secrets,faqs,equipment,spells,and more stuff that i need to know to kill this Old Man. Everything and anything will help please help me out, thank you.


Name: Xandralox
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Linkshell: Nameless Warrior
Race: Hume
Nation: Sandy
AF Gear: Feet[x]Legging[x]Gloves[x]Body[x]Hat[x]
RE: maat that crazy man
# Feb 16 2006 at 3:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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52 posts
first tip I can give is not to try it at 66, get to at least 69 because Aero III is a must have spell to beat him. I've heard rumors that if you fight him at 69 he won't be able to use Asuran Fists, but I can't confirm this and the extra MP you would have by being 70 is helpful. I haven't actually beaten him myself yet so I can say a definite way to win.
I've made 2 attempts, the first I was completely slaugthered because I wasn't prepared at all, and I used a scroll of instant reraise but didn't relize there was a 10 minute time limit. The second time I got to him about half health before he hit me with Asuran Fists for 712 and killed me... as soon as I entered I ran straight at him and cast sleep II on him, then buffed myself (Protect IV, Shell IV, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, Refresh, and Baraero to reduce the damage when he uses Aero III, which he likes to cast a lot) and used a Tavnazian Taco. After casting all that rested up to full, re-slept him every time he woke up, then once I was at full got up and hit Chainspell, spammed Aero III till I was almost out of MP, did Sleep II, Stoneskin, then Convert, Cure IV myself twice, then spam Aero III more until I was out of MP a second time, once I ran out again he was at half HP (as I stated earlier), I put him to sleep again and started to rest my MP, but unfortunately for me he woke up and used Asuran Fists for 712, leaving me with 52 HP remaining, then he did Aero III for 250 to finish me off while I was atempting to put him to sleep again.
I am a RDM70/BLM35 (though sub doesn't matter as it is set to 0 when you fight him) Hume on Unicorn server. I went in on Windsday and for gear I used the Staff that corresponded with every spell I cast and wore as much INT+ gear I could get a hold of.
RDM is one of the hardest Maat fights and it really is just pot luck as to wether you beat him or not, the timing on his Asuran Fists is what screwed me out of winning my most recent try.
RE: maat that crazy man
# Jun 06 2006 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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90 posts
Quote:
I've heard rumors that if you fight him at 69 he won't be able to use Asuran Fists, but I can't confirm this and the extra MP you would have by being 70 is helpful.


HE can infact use asuran fists if u fight him at lvl 69 espeacialy to rdm my friend died twice at 69 to asuran fists.
Domination
# Jan 08 2006 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
Fought him today 1st time and destroyed him it was an easy fight. DRK70/THF35

Equip:
Darksteel Scythe
Chaos Burgeonet
Hauberk
Thick Mufflers
Thick Breeches
Thick Solleretes
Merman's Gorget
Assult Earring
Coral Earring
Sniper's Ring x2
Life Belt
Amemet Mantle

Strategy:
Make sure to bring at least 10 Hi-Potions (to be safe), a Blink Band, an Icarus Wing (I didnt use), A type of sushi or a VIT+ food, Regen food (didn't use either) and if you need it some Refreshing food. Start the battle by equipping the Opo-Opo Necklace and sleeping till you have 100% TP, then use Bream Sushi (VIT+ Acc+) and a Blink Band. Walk up to him cast Bio II and engage. Immidiately use Guillotine on him. When he uses Blood Weapon put on Souleater and Blood Weapon and build your TP back up to 100 then use Guillotine again. If he idn't dead yet then use the Icarus Wing and finish him off with Guillotine a third time. Stun constanly especially if he uses a WS, and use Drain once or twice. This worked extremely well for me and hopefully will help some other DRKs who are aspiring to kill Maat.

Edited, Wed Feb 1 03:59:54 2006
{Hmm...}
# Dec 12 2005 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
I'm correct in assumeing that the only time you fight maat is at lvl 70 ? to break cap to get to 75?
RE: {Hmm...}
# Mar 14 2006 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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60 posts
You are correct in that the Maat fight is Genkai5, or raising your level cap to 75, however, it isn't necessary to be level 70. You are able to fight him as soon as you are level 66, and have the cooresponding job testimony. Certain jobs, such as Warrior and Samurai, have easier Maat fights and are able to defeat him at a lower level, but other jobs such as Red Mage are extremely difficult, and you may want to wait till you are 70 or 60 fpr Aero III before fighting him.
RE: {Hmm...}
# Dec 12 2005 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
Yes.
You have to get that jobs Testimony to be able to fight him.
These are dropped from certain mobs.
Summoner Vs Maat - - - SUMMONER WINS!
# Oct 24 2005 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
I just kicked his *** as Summoner - Very Easy and very quick fight. Not simple, just easy.

Ok run up to him before doing anything and watch him summon. Then use Aerial Armour and Earthen Ward. Then rest up to full. Ok now chug a Yagudo Drink, use Astral Flow and Assault, then hammer Earthern Fury (Usin Titan for highest VIT). Ok now leave him to fight Titan and run far far away! Chug Hi Etherx2 - Once titan is dead Astral Flow should be ready again so resummon and as soon as Titan is in range of Maat blast the old fart into next week :D (Strat from Chelsea - SMN75)

Good Luck guys - Most fun fight I have had to date ^^

(Killed him on my 3rd try - 1st I got slaughtered cause had no meds and no clue ^^, 2nd time was during the maintenance fest so I got lagged out, 3rd time he hit the Mat!)
RE: Summoner Vs Maat - - - SUMMONER WINS!
# Dec 23 2005 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
20 posts
Ha! 66 SMN win on first attempt!
Go in with Fenrir on Darksday and use Eclipse Bite. Run as far away as possible, wait for Fenrir to die and resummon. This time use Astral Flow, Howling Moon will take him down another notch and kill his pet. Then all you have to do is let Fenrir tank him for a bit and you win.
Old record: 4 mins 47 sec
My record: 3 mins 7 sec
Exp loss?
# Oct 20 2005 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
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77 posts

Quick question.

If you lose to Maat will you also lose experience points? Or is it like the solo avatar battles where loss results in nothing but a loss?
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