basically both pieces are situational. At 75 you should be tanking as /nin on ANYTHING higher then normal nms in sky. So basically hps are okay but not UBER importent though shield skill does help in getting shadows back up on ichi recast. The +7 to enimity does help in dynamis where you only get one or 2 vokes before you have 35+ ppl attacking your mob for decent damage. that is not the case on most end game mobs cause ppl are not throwing up the same amount of damage in a short amount of time. I know this cause I've had nins spaming vokes and recieving a rolling SATA and NEVER pulling hate off me on gods (without my full enimity gear equiped). I have tanked just about every HNM at one point or another. basically both are good to have don't pass either up they both have there places. I can build to + 55 enimity or 326 shield skill and use both it just all depends on the mob. As to the CHR issue wether you believe it does nothing for hate or it decreases hate loss over time if you build enough hate it shouldn't matter especially with gaurdian
CHR isnt eminity infact what CHR does is the the rate at witch you loose eminity the higher you got the the slower it is that your eminity or hate count gos down EX. a balckmage cast sleepga 2 and a brd does lulliby the blackmages sleepga2 cause more hate then lulliby but by the time the mob wake up the hate the blm aquired from the sleepga is almost gone where a brds hate is still high from the luliby i hope this clears things up
this is garbage CHR DOES NOT EFFECT HATE IN ANYWAY
SE said spesificly in an interview that CHA has nothing what so ever to do with hate or enmity at all. The only leway for this is that the question was worded so that SE's answers could have been sidestep answers. That's unlikely however and they were rather insistant, and made it pretty clear. So unless they were diliberatly trying to trick us in this reguard (unlikely), then CHA has no effect at all on hate.
:X So says the great SE. I'm pretty sure they would know.
chr doesn't affect enmity no matter what you guys want to say that it does.
What chr does do for a tank that many people have simply bought into as enmity since koneing has lots of chr is really for the:
#1 intimidation effects. More chr = more intimidation effects from the killer traits on the earring/seashell/koneing shield/undead killer abilities/circle effects. This has been proven many times in the past. Go check bst forums.
#2 resisting charm, yes you can resist charm but vs a HNM 10+ lvs higher than you, it would be tough. Slap on all the chr gear and the lv 50 ring from assaults and you do stand a chance though.
#3 resisting songs. have you never wondered why it's hard for colbri to land a foe requiem on you? or the times that you resisted an elegy from a brd mob? It's not a secret that you will tank brd type mobs and that you will have songs cast upon you.
And yes, very very few ws's use chr as a secondary modifier. The one thing that comes to mind is dancing edge for theives which does have a 5% chr 2ndary dmg modifier.
Firstly, I'd like to say this IS a good piece of gear, but is also very situational. I"ve found that in an EXP/merit party, I hold hate MUCH better using ACC+ gear with Joyeuse and just moderate Enmity+ gear, than I do using fully decked out Enmity+ and Defender. Of course, this would be ENTIRELY different in an HNM fight, since it's VERY hard to hold hate through dmg in this situation.
Now, I want to discuss the CHR -7... I hear SOOOO many people b*tching and INSISTING that CHR has NOTHING to do with hate, and they KNOW it, and NO ONE is ever going to tell them Differently! However, have you people EVER done any tests, or have ANY proof to back this up? I encountered an EXCELLENT example recently, and this leads me to believe that CHR does GREATLY affect hate. I recently partied with a BRD that had CHR 72+58 - she used a CuragaII at the beginning of the fight, and it took TWO provokes, Sentinel, Shield Bash, Rampart, and 2 Cure IV's (on tank and on the BRD) to get hate off of the Very high CHR decked BRD. Now, some may argue that ANYONE who does a Curaga II at the start will get TONS of hate and will have trouble getting it off them, HOWEVER, I've had MANY whm's use curaga II and even III after just the first voke, and I kept hate through it just fine, OR if I did lose it, I got it back before the mob even reached the WHM. Now, you can agree OR disagree with this, but all I can say is that seeing is believing, and if you dont believe me, run some tests yourself and see... DOnt just make Sh** up without ANY proof and just INSIST you're right when you have no freakin clue whatsoever.
Charisma has no effect on enmity or provoke. I don't believe this because I have some personal bias towards it, I believe it because the SE developers have said several times that Charisma doesn't effect enmity or provoke in any way. They have said it effects your ability to charm a mob, to resist being charmed, songs both landing and resisting, and certain ws's. This is straight from the people who design this game, and if you refuse to agree with them, then you are the one who has no freakin clue whatsoever.
CHR isnt eminity infact what CHR does is the the rate at witch you loose eminity the higher you got the the slower it is that your eminity or hate count gos down EX. a balckmage cast sleepga 2 and a brd does lulliby the blackmages sleepga2 cause more hate then lulliby but by the time the mob wake up the hate the blm aquired from the sleepga is almost gone where a brds hate is still high from the luliby i hope this clears things up
Once again, it's all very debatable... Some people will completely agree with you, others will swear up and down that CHR has NOTHING to do with enmity, and then others will insist it's all the same thing. I've only reported on my own experience, and only have opinions based on what I saw with my own eyes.
I'm of the opinion that CHR has some limited effects on enmity, though not directly. I have read in multiple places that the duration of the spike hate from provoke can be modified by CHR, and I've seen convincing results by using a Jack'o'lantern (+10 acc, +10 eva, -10 CHR) on a low lvl ninja and trying to hold hate in dunes parties. I've also talked to many people that believe they have seen results by macroing in CHR gear for their provoke on PLD.
I have a very close friend that insists there is no connection whatsoever, supported by a statement in some interview with the developers that basicly said something like "CHR has no effect on enmity whatsoever." My opinion is that they are evading the issue while still speaking truth, in that CHR does not directly effect enmity, but maybe it can still have an effect on provoke. This may sound silly, but a lot of things in this game make some kind of real-world sense, and it seems to me like a more charismatic person would be able to "provoke" someone through words more effectively.
Also, if you look up Koenig gear (war/pld uncursed gear), you can see that many of the pieces have VIT and CHR in equal quantities, and some of the PLD AF has CHR on it as well.
As for the BRD casting Curaga II, the difference could just be that most WHM have a generous amount of -enmity while most BRD do not.
Mnd does help alittle with healing (not that important) but it also reduces magic damage taken, for me personally I would rather have valor +1 or keonig (depending on situation). The reson why is since the last update enimity on pld is not as big a deal fighting hnm's, though maintaining it is. you can just link your skills after sentienel, you will get plenty of hate. If you can keep it its pointless. The reason I would go keonig is fighting HARD hitting hnm's you want to use your shield as much as possible (or at least I do), and yeah you can get it from other sources too but thats why my skill is 330 when I setup that way for those fights. O'well thats just how I see it.
/equip Head "Aegishjalmr" /wait 2 /ja "Provoke" <bt> /equip Head "Adaman Barbuta" /wait 25 /p Ready to voke!
So, what do we have here? a provoke macro that gives you +7 enmity while you voke and no negative effects at other times? OMFG! i just made all those arguments about this crap look retarded. tyvm byebye
More importantly, if all you're using this for is an extra +5 enmity while Provoking, you've managed to almost completely waste a very useful item. I've got to wonder if such a suggestion simply comes from inexperience -- I assume that anyone who's been a high-level PLD for awhile would realise that Provoke is only one part of all the things a PLD does to keep hate.
If you are using this for only provoke, it is a waste. This piece of equip might as well just be used as a paper weight.
A better use for this would to keep it equiped while you are swinging your sword so that you get +7 Emnity every time you hit him and not just +7 on your provoke. (you would probably get the same amount of bonus Emnity when you swing your sword between when you equipted the helm and the bonus on when you used provoke.)
My suggestion to this if you are truely going to have this helm and another helm to switch out, equip this helm in the beginning of the battle when the mob is not spamming WSs and then switch out when you have a managable amount of Emnity to a higher Def/VIT or w/e you wish.
I think that saying "it's a waste if you only use for provoke" is pretty stupid. If you are tanking an HNM and NEED to be tanking with the Koenig Helm, that +7 Emnity voke could help a lot since the Koenig Helm has 0 emnity.
But wait, there's only 1 way to do things, and you can easily make a general statement which will cover every last situation.
I think that saying "it's a waste if you only use for provoke" is pretty stupid. If you are tanking an HNM and NEED to be tanking with the Koenig Helm, that +7 Emnity voke could help a lot since the Koenig Helm has 0 emnity. But wait, there's only 1 way to do things, and you can easily make a general statement which will cover every last situation.
Yep, go ahead and macro Aejishjalmr in for Provoke, Cures, Flash, Warcry, Rampart, Sentinel, and Shield Bash. Perhaps for the three seconds between vokes that you're not blinking, an outside healer might actually be able to land a cure on you.
A few points of DEF means nothing (hell, at this level hundreds is barely noticeable), and both Aejishjalmr and Koenig Helm have +hp. So, you'd be switching gear and blinking every five seconds just to have +5 shield most of the time.. +5 shield is nice, but considering that a PLD can fairly easily get five times that from other gear, it's nothing to dance about. It's certainly not something to miss cures from outside healers over.
And, there's *never* a time when you "NEED" to be tanking on a Koenig Helm.
lol i only posted what i did for sake of argument, if i personally had this piece i would only take it off when wsing. or looking good running around town :P
CHR effected the hate of your provoke too, so i mean this is a good item but at high levels usually keeping hate is not a problem but this makes it easier no doubt.
#REDACTED,
Posted:Mar 18 2006 at 1:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I swear to god, PLEASE learn your job before you post on here.... I'm sick of all the pld's saying Chr affects provoke lol. You don't believe me read this :
CHR controls the rate at which hate dissipates. Enmity affects hate at all times and -7 CHR isn't that much to of a price to pay for 7 Enmity, but it is somewhat balancing. A really good PLD would probably know when to use this, and when to use Koenig Schaller.
#REDACTED,
Posted:Sep 06 2005 at 9:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol gotta ppl that are high lvl that think they know all and completely diss others.. now thats funny and a deffinate rate down
Wonder which is better, this or the Kaiser Schaller...I'll have to ask the opinions of some of my PLD friends. I supposed it'd depend on the rest of your equipment, and thus whether you need the VIT or Enmity more...
I would much rather have a CHR boost than MND boost as CHR increases the potency of vokes. Okay I know it isn't official but so many different tests including personal ones strongly show a link to CHR and hate.
LOL! Not official? SE stated that CHR only affects bards, Beastmaster's charm and *some* weapons skills...
That is completely false. If that was true, you wouldn't be able to peel mobs off of BRDs, and BSTs' pets would never be able to keep hate off their BST. :P
Whats really odd is that the definitionn of Charisma is the natural attraction (or something) to someone. Like, you cant get mad at them/stay mad at them for a long period of time. I can understand that for BSTs because the more CHR, the more a mob will wanna be used and stuff by a BST. as for BRDs, i dunno...
Why are you guys even mentioning the MND-7? What I'm worried about is the CHR-7.
I would much rather have a CHR boost than MND boost as CHR increases the potency of vokes. Okay I know it isn't official but so many different tests including personal ones strongly show a link to CHR and hate. My personal test was this: As a level 10 NIN/WAR I recall having a total of 12 CHR. I would voke and the mob stayed glued to me for a while like usual. But then I equiped myself with a Dog Collar (CHR-1) and also ate a Jack-'o-Lantern (Acc+10 Eva+10 CHR-10) thus resulting in a total of 1 Charisma (12-11=1). From that point on I could not tank whasoever. I would provoke and the mob would maybe face me for a few seconds then charge for the mages. Although this is not solid proof it is a pretty reliable source that CHR does have at least some effect on the potency of Provoke. So who cares about MND, it's all about the Charisma baby.
But in all fairness the Enmity+7 more than makes up for it. CHR is still a factor to be considered though.
are you a complete moron.. SE. makers of the game itself confirmed that CHR does NOT effect provoke in any way, shape or form. stop mentioning it. you sound completely retarted.
um... no, u are a complete moron, if u blindly accept everything u are told without even questioning it, i totally agree with dark, and his little experiment is proof. so what if SE has a press conference, is their word "proof"?
who f*cking cares. OOOOO SOMEONE POSTED FALSE IMFORMATION LETS MAKE A BIG DEAL AND MAKE FUN OF HIM!!!! so what someone didnt know every little fact of the game. there is so much s*t only a total loser would know all that. personally, i dont read press conferences made with SE. Am i retarded because i have better things to do? who cares if he has a theory. its a theory it could be true or false. Hell, maybe SE is full of sh*t and they lied to get ppl to stop asking questions about wtf CHR does. just say maybe hes wrong and thank him for taking the time to do a little test on CHR and take the time to post it, not call him a ******.
provoke is not affected by chr, yet the longevity of the hate you had was decreasing rapidly . Thats why with 1 chr you would provoke hate would spike and go away very quickly. Thast all your test proves. And about the comment the developers made about CHR not affecting PROVOKE thats 100% true. dose that mean it dosent affect your tanking. NO!!!
Holy crap spaz attack to the max o.o; /em pays a paladin with vit +like 50 to use cover on me and protect me from Janien. Oh and btw, before ppl go and use the term retarded as an offense, retardedness isn't a joke. If you think its just something used to call someone stupid or some BS, please look it up in the dictionary