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Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow

#152 Apr 03 2005 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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439 posts
Oh, this topic is such good bait for karma trolls...how can I pass up such a good chance for a rate down? (heh)

There are so many things I could try to quote, but Allak won't let me quote them all...so I'll sum up some comments and impressions, and let people figure out who I dissing and who I'm praising...heh.

When I'm leveling any job that uses mana, I bring juice stuff along, and synth in slow points...try it, it works great.

Kazham: Pine Apple Juice (Water + Pine Apple x2)
Rabao: Melon Juice (Water + Thundermelon + Watermelon)

Pine Apples you can get from the vendor NPC on the docks behind the Kazham Airship Entry/Exit, and even better, you don't need a ticket, as she is just barely in range if you are on the dock to the side.

Melons you can get from that Goblin near the fishing hole, he sells both, and like the Mithra has unlimited supply.

Water Crystals are amoung the cheapest crystals on the AH, and both areas have an AH nearby.

As a PLD, WHM or any non-warp mana using job, I have to carry more with me at a time, but as BLM25+ (or ANY50/blm25+) when I run out I will often (with the party knowing ahead of time) warp back to town, grab the juice stuff, pick up supplies for others (ammo, juice stuff for them, etc) and grab a Rent-a-Chicken back while they go to the bathroom, grab a snack, whatever.

I seldom spam mana+ food, rather I use Juices and HealingMana foods (cookies are nice), and go for mana recovery (as a Tarutaru I already have a lot of mana).

With the "OMGWTFBBQ!!!11one!eleven!!! U n00b n0 ReFrEsH cost us teh UBER Chain XXXIV" crowd already screaming, I continue with a point that will be lost on a great majority of them.

When you are playing, the mages (especially the BLM) don't lean on their mana early on, because an Exp.Chain is a DECREASING INTERVAL TIMER BETWEEN "Dead Mob"S.

The melee's will kill the early mobs, taking longer, and smart BLMs will often toss a BLM enfeeble and a minor nuke, only really paying attention to the MBs.

When (as a BLM) I try to constantly nuke (even if I'm pacing myself to stay just -under- the OverHate line) I find my mana insufficient to get the later chains...but when I SIT MY <BLEEP> DOWN and rest after that nuke, and don't push my hate threshold anywhere -near- as close, when we start having less and less time, I start doing more and more nukes, and we get higher chains.

And yes, at the higher chains, I often pull hate, and take hits...if the mob is about to die, I will keep nuking, if not, I stop and let the tanks peal a little hate off.

As a BLM, my job is seldom to reach into my pants and pull out my tool and start slapping the mob around so everyone can see how special I am...that kind of hardcore nuking is for BCNM's and EMERGENCIES...or Manaburn Parties (but those are a completely different thing from a "normal" exp.pt).

My job, whether BLM, WHM, THF, or CourtJester, is to make the overall flow of exp as smooth and continuous as possible, and if that means doing my job from the shadows and getting no praise at all until I surpise people with my Level Up Animation, then that's what I need to do...the only time "I'm so good, I amaze myself" applies is -solo- stuff.

But as a BLM to make optimum use of Exp.Chains I...SIT MY LITTLE TARUTARU BUTT DOWN AND REST WHEN EVER I CAN...and that's with Ballad, and Juices...and I do the same as a WHM, resting the rest of the tic into the start of the fight to squeeze a little more mana out, and if the healths are good, I will often sit down just before the fight is over for an extra second that means a little more HMR.

But what about Red Mages, afterall that's what this whole thing is about, and RDM is my highest current job (50-51 depending on what day of the week it is).

I believe one especially insightful quote was:
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A RDMs job is to refresh. period. Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you
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I guess whoever said this only plays in Manaburn Parties, where it doesn't bloody well matter what buffs a monster does or doesn't have, or how gimped it is or isn't.

You want to see how useful Enfeebles are? Try doing without them...even if the mob never buffs...not hitting as fast, not hitting as hard (or taking more damage per hit, those two don't stack), not hitting as accurately, not evading attacks as well, not casting magic, not able to swing at all sometimes...these things make a -very- noticable difference to certain people:

Paladins
Ninjas
Dark Knights
Dragoons
Samurai
Thieves
Warriors
Monks
Rangers

And that's the -immediate- list of people that notice the use of debuffs:

Dia(ga,2): Almost insignificant DoT, but has the interesting bonus of DEFENSE DOWN...which means any "hit the mob with something physical" job does MORE DAMAGE when it hits...doesn't stack with Bio.

Bio(ga,2): Minor DoT, but as the interesting bouns of ATTACK DOWN...which means any "gets hit alot" job takes less damage when it gets hit...doesn't stack with Dia (darn it).

Blind: No damage at all, but a minor reduction in ACCURACY...which means the mob doesn't hit as OFTEN, which means the people taking damage don't take it as much.

Silence: No damage, but any actual -spell- ability is STOPPED because they can't cast...and anyone who's ever eaten from the plate of "<Bleep> that spell hurt" let alone "Double <Bleep>, that spell took me out" will say this is a useful thing against mage-type mobs.

...and of course, the "Golden Trio"...

Gravity: No damage, but slows a mob's movement and oh, btw, has a neat little side effect of EVASION DOWN...which means it doesn't dodge as well, which means attacks and WS's (especially from Rangers) hit more often, which means less wasted money (for Rangers) and MORE DAMAGE due to MORE HITS.

Paralyze: No damage, but occasionally ABORTS ANY ATTACK, melee, spell, TP Attack, non-tp Special Ability...doesn't matter what, if it's an -action- paralyze has a chance of stopping it cold.

Slow: No damage, but adds to the "delay" of anything the monster tries to do, making it ATTACK LESS OFTEN (including spells, TP's, non-tp Specials, etc).

...this doesn't even hit the "One Debuff To Rule Them All" in the RDM's **********

Dispel: No damage, but (unless resisted) will remove individual mob buffs (one buff lost per casting) in order from most recently cast to least recently cast (ie: reverse of the NPC's buff casting order).

Now in an "18 BLMs vs. ArchAngels" fight, yeah, debuffs aren't a big deal, but in any regular, mixed-person exp.pt, Debuffs make the fight easier, which means less effort involved on all parts, which means faster individual fights, which means higher chains, which means MORE EXP FOR YOU TOO.

Erase, one of the most -interesting- spells a WHM can use, is one of the few spells I -don't- pitch a fit over if a WHM doesn't have until 40...by 50 it's a problem, but I know it's hard to get the (on my server) million gil or so the silly thing costs.

You know what I do if the WHM in my PT has the skill, but hasn't gotten the gil?

I will help them farm seals (I often use mules for that), letting them have them, and then helping them with a BC40 so -they- can get that neat (and Holy <Bleep> expensive) scroll...an action that has surprised the heck out of numerous WHM's I've PT'ed with (most of whom wound up on my /flist for some strange reason...heh).

But Dispel? You know, the -offensive- version of that spell?

Stupid thing costs 60k+ from a Vendor in Rabao that I know of...and I stayed at 33 for a while (the PT I had been in was formed at 27 and didn't break up until I'd almost hit 34) until I had enough money to go buy it.

Oh, and Dispel works great against those funny buffs the mobs sometimes have...you know, the ones that add Magic Defense to the mobs and make your nukes look like they were coming from a RDM? (aka: Shell)

The -bad- thing about debuffs is until you've tried fighting without them, you don't realize how much you needed them...it's not like they put big numbers on the screen:

Jonesakagandalfthegray casts Blind.
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Goblin Smithy's Accuracy drops 15%.
-
Ricktheranger uses Barrage.
-
Goblin Smithy takes 125 damage.
-
Shieldbasher casts Flash.
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Goblin Smithy's Accuracy drops 45%.
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Jonesakagandalfthegray casts Dia.
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Goblin Smithy takes 1 damage, and looses 10% Defense.

If the debuffs looked like -that- everyone would know how useful it was, because they would -see- the actual numbers...but we don't, so they generally blend in.

But when we -don't- cast them, -you- start to notice -real- quick...often screaming for me to Dispel the mob because you aren't hitting (or aren't hurting it) and it must have buffed, when in fact, it did nothing (as shown when we do cast the Dispel to humor you)...we've just been casting other stuff (refresh, haste, cureXYZ, etc) and haven't done our debuffs.

Lets see, what was another insightful comment...something about BLM's should be #2 if not #1 in the Refresh Cycle?

This one has already been "Slap-ga XXXIV"ed but hey, a little extra skillup to make sure the skill is capped never hurt anyone...heh.

My general refresh order (in a PT of: RDM, WHM, BLM, PLD, DRK, SMN...to put in six mana using jobs).

(1)RDM, (2)PLD, (3/4/5/6) Varies but is often WHM, then SMN or BLM depending on who's intelligently using more mana in general, then the DRK.

Why on earth would I do that?

RMD First:
- One, that string just cost me (40x6) 240 mana, so I would like a little of that back.
- Two, in a battle spammy environment, having my icon go away tells me everyone else's is about to go away (in what ever order I last cast it) so at my first oportunity I will renew the Refresh Cycle.

PLD Second:
- One, he has the lowest level of mana second to the DRK (although I've seen DRKs with more mana than the PLD) and is the most -heavilly- dependant on it...Flash, Cure(Self).
- Two, these plus Provoke and Shield Bash are his main hate holders (his damage sucks like a gaping chest wound) and if he's doing his job will probably bleed mana like a Ranger or Ninja bleeds gil...so he needs it.

WHM Third:
- Generally, they will rest as they can, but it's not dependable (one crit and they need to stand back up) so keeping them refreshed is a smart idea...and in the heat of battle I find it easier to hold to a pattern when possible allowing me to devote more active attention to other things.

Everyone Else:
- With them, order varies depending on who seems to be:
(A) Using the most mana.
(B) Making intelligent use of their mana.

If the SMN is doing the pulling (and in places with Links and Sound Aggro this is actually playing -intelligent-) keeping a Refresh on them is a good thing, and depending on what else is going on, they will get stuck into the cycle when ever they are back in range, sometimes even ahead of myself if the PT's mana is good and they know I'm aware of the Buffs going down...but if the SMN has Carby Mitts (and/or other maint.cost.down items) I might not sweat them as much, hitting them when I can.

If the BLM is playing -smart- and practicing mana conservation so they have mana for the latter parts of the chain, I will hit them regularly, allowing for a slight increase in his abilities (it's only 150 mana afterall) mostly aimed at his ability to nuke the he11 out of the last few monsters for extra chainage...if they are going nuke happy and constantly pulling hate off the tanks, always going with their biggest (and most expensive) spells reguardless of the mob's elemental strengths and weaknesses (throwing Thunder?? against strong earth types and saying "well that's my best spell" when an Aero?? would do as much for a lot less, and a Blizzard?? would do more than both for less than the Thunder?? did) then I will ask them to play smarter, and failing that, will let them run out of mana to slow them down if talking to them won't fix it.

If the DRK is pimp-slapping the mob with absorbs (making it much easier to kill) and using his other spells (drain, aspir, etc) intelligently, and the SMN and BLM are either on the <bleep> list or don't need it as often (good mana conservation practices) I may even hit the DRK #4 on the list.

Oh, and on the "hitting chains" bit, you know something a PT of intelligent players did, in Kazham(Yhoater) of all places?

We were 29-30, and pulling Gobbies...but we would put a VT or T (to the highest person) Mandy in the lineup, and the mages would REST the majority of the third fight (which had plenty of time) to get their mana back up so we could quickly kill a Goblin (and build some TP after the opening skill chain since we didn't SC on that Mandy) and go pull another...the puller actually leaving while we were still fighting, and as soon as the mob went splat, would pull another Gobbie, and we would keep nuking/debuffing/swinging to finish with a SC(MB) for Chain 5 (or six sometimes) and then rest full.

And that was without Refresh beyond us bringing juice stuff.

It's called "Playing Smarter, Not Harder" and so far, up through L50 and the HNM's I've been on smarter definately seems better than harder, although convincing people of that is often as hard as keeping dead horses in their glue bottles where they belong...heh.

Another comment I recall, something to the effect of RDM's who don't rest are generally melee's who are wanting that 300% so they can look good and neglecting their mage duties, or something like that.

Oh, Puh-<bleep>ing-lease...as a RDM, from the moment I got Refresh, the only time I could -sit- was when someone was AFK or we were out of mobs.

Let me see, if I stop wasting my time and mana with those stupid, pointless, useless, waste-of-time/mana debuffs (don't you ever bloody well start hollering for a Dispel after telling me debuffs are a waste of mana), I would have a lot less to do...but I open with 3-4 debuffs, a haste or two, and I still have a Refresh Cycle to maintain...I never stop casting during a fight, and often during the "resting portion" between pulls where you get a tic or two, I'm usually maintaining the Refresh Cycle.

Oh, and for people that think Convert is "at will" or at worst "2 minute recast"...MWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-snort-choke-cough...thanks, I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.

Convert is a 10 minute recast job ability...so I can't just use it "whenever my mana is low".

Most PT's I've been in (smooth or otherwise) everyone else has slowly decreasing mana bars, while I'm dropping like a rock and having to fight to keep mana long enough to keep killing 'till my Convert is back.

Best PT I've been in was an all JP 5 person static that knew their job and had their moves down past science into art...the only reason we didn't get past chain5/6 was we would run out of stuff to kill (the other mobs weren't close enough to keep the chain going) and would then stop and rest if needed...I explained the situation in auto-translator and they replied with UNDERSTOOD's and adjusted their fight speed so I was just reaching the end of my reserves when Convert came back around...oh, and the WHM and BLM each picked one of the debuffs I was throwing, and did those to ease my mana drain to maintain steady chain 5/6 for several hours...but the only time I got to sit down and -rest- my mana back was when someone had to go to the bathroom or something similar.

Another point I remember reading was about hollering for Healz or VoKeZ or Refresh PLZ.

When my icon goes away, at the next oportunity (I am casting almost non-stop most parties) I will restart the cycle...I have my spell name (in auto-translate) and the target in /p so it will show up through the spam (I love the "HOLD" option in the chat filters)...watch for it, when the person ahead of you in the RC shows up, yours CANNOT be cast for several moments no matter how desperately you think your ability to sire or bear children will be retarded without that Refresh.

Oh, and on a note, against Anticans, -especially- the magic using kind, I will often find myself having to -spam- Silence and Dispel on the silly things to keep the PT from falling over dead...if this means the RC is broken, deal with it, as the only one who can keep you BLM's from looking like underskilled RDM's in the nuke-department, and the best bet for keeping everyone from being char-broiled, I occasionally have more important things to do than Refresh...oh, and mine is also usually down if yours is, so quit whining.

That being said, I don't mind a ctrl+p "Don't forget the Refreshes" especially after one of those 'Oh <Bleep>' fights (such as a PLD+BLM NPC surprise tag-team), but ctrl+2 "OMGWTFBBQ REFRESH NOWZZZZ <callXXXIV>" every time your icon goes away is so going to wind up with me /blisting you to keep my chat window clear and my headset from blowing my eardrums out.

Spell falls on me, "casting time" + "recasting time" + "however long it took me to finish that spell" = "How when yours will be recast"...so unless I'm not doing anything (emergency cure on someone, MB...the only reason for a RDM to nuke in PT, trying to silence that silly mage, etc) your spell -will- go down for a few moments before it goes back up.

And often, rather than count to X and then try the spell, if I'm not busy I hit F(whatever) and my Refresh Macro (/ma "Refresh <t>) before it can actually go by a second or two, just to make sure it goes up as -soon- as it possibly can...if you see:

Sensubean: {Refresh} => Iamthebaddest
Sensubean: {Refresh} => Iamthebaddest
Sensubean: {Refresh} => Iamthebaddest
Sensubean: {Refresh} => Iamthebaddest
* Sensubean starts casting Refresh on Iamthebaddest.

...you hollering for Refresh is -so- not going to put you -higher- on my refresh priority.

Oh, and as a note, I've hit people with Refresh before their spell expired...and it does -not- extend the duration, the old one expired and I was without Refresh when I should have had over 100 points to go on the second...dunno if this was fixed, but I am -not- going to cast on top of an old one, as that is a waste of time and mana.

Go back and level a job without the option of Refresh (use a mule if you have to) to get back into the habit (one you should have had before you left Valky unless you were PL'ed through it) of "husbanding" your mana...it's a marriage, and if you don't take care of your spouse, they will leave you when you least expect it and most need them...so relearn (or learn if you fell into the trap of "Got PL, Don't Need Brains") mana conservation, and stop thinking that Regen(Mana) is the end-all be-all of fixing your spell casting limits.

There are other things I could comment on in this troll-bate thread, but I'll stop here (all this troll teasing has gotten me hungry...heh).

Galantdramon
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Sensubean on Midguardsormr
#153 Apr 03 2005 at 10:11 PM Rating: Default
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236 posts
Truthfully, my highest job (elvaan Paladin) is only 36, so I'm not in Refresh country yet. I can see why RDMs might get upset with people constantly begging for refresh.

However, yes, post 41 that does seem like it should be a large portion of their job.

KarmaBum wrote:
RDM: I think I'm just going to start charging for Refresh.
PLD: Ok. I think I'm just going to start charging for Provoke.


Well said anonomous PLD O.O. We provoke every fricken 30 seconds from level 10-75 but we don't complain. It's our job. I'm by no means calling RDMs whiners/complainers, refer to above, I can understand. However, although I have yet to deal with this issue, I simply don't find myself tolerating a RDM complaining about refresh.
#154 Apr 04 2005 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
Im a 70 RDM and my refresh order is Me, PLD, whoever uses most mp..Some partys whm uses the most mp some partys the blm uses more mp sometimes i'll refresh the blm b4 the whm and the fights are a lot shorter and i can always backup heal and not spend much mp. But if we dont have a good DD party ill refresh the whm b4 the blm.. The most annoying thing is to be asked for refresh when the person who ask is ALREADY refreshed.. i dont think anybody should tell anybody how to do their job after a certain level. Asking for Refresh is rude IMO.. I actually get into it with people who ask for refresh in skill up parties.. I dont use my sword at all in exp prties i would like to skill up as much as i can but i cant becuz people whine about refresh.. when i say im here to skillup not to exp they get mad..
#155 Apr 04 2005 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,633 posts
1) RDMs Refresh themselves first so that they can more easily see when it wears off, and begin the next cycle. So, yes, our Refresh is essentially the most important, but really, we do it for you guys. Don't like it? Tough.

2) Expanding on #1, if the RDM is consistent with his Refreshes and stays on top of them, the order of Refreshes really does not matter.

3) Yes, BLMs need Refresh. Whether you like it or not, him having that 150 MP is going to do more good than you having that 40 MP. How would you like a RNG that stopped shooting mid-battle because his arrows cost too much? Try looking at how much some of those high-end nukes cost, and maybe you'll see how every bit will help him.

And I've never had a BLM that started pulling aggro too much just because he was Refreshed, that argument is inane. If he's pulling aggro with Refresh, chances are he would have done so without it. And sure, BLMs can rest for MP. But all the time that they're resting, they are not immediately contributing to the party's damage, meaning battles take longer. Meaning more MP is spent on healing. Meaning chains are cut shorter. You get the picture.
#156 Apr 04 2005 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
I wouldn't beg for Refresh, if you didn't suck at your job.
#157 Apr 04 2005 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
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582 posts
its this simple debuffs>all, my debuffs go out FIRST before any refresh, refresh dosnt mean a damn if you are all hitting for 4 dmg, or the pld is taking hundreds, refresh order goes, me pld whm , and anyone else who NEEDS it, notice i said NEEDS IT there, try spamming a brd for ballad and see if they dont get pissed off too

and i have to say to the idiot who compared refresh to warp II and teleports...... -.-

how often do u teleport in an exp party ........

point bieng a rdm has more to do in exp than just refresh/dispel, if u dont get it lvl rdm urself, i have no probs refreshing a blm BUT the blm needs to understand that they ARE NOT on the top of my list, let me repeat that are NOT on the top of my list,

no, i dont melee in fact currently i use a wand, until 51 when i can use my ele. staves, personally i feel melee is in-efficent for rdm....but thats just my opinion

i dont mind bieng asked for a refresh now and then, its the ppl that assume we are bottomless mp pools that need an atitude re-adjustment, this is especially true for elvaan rdms like myself....

i wear a some-odd +130-150 mp +gear and it never seems as its enough just b/c everyone assumes that just b/c u have mp u need refresh......do the math, refreshing 3-5 ppl in a pt isnt easy on top of your other duties, i was in a pt with a smn that was main healing last night

a taru no less with 660 mp, and was complaining when i wouldnt ast refresh on him......well, it probably had something to do with the fact that he NEVER casted ANYTHING EVER.....

case in point before you go to blmae the rdm OR any other job for a failure pt look at EVREYONE involved

thank you

Tetsuiga
#158 Apr 04 2005 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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2,216 posts
OK I read one page of this before steam started coming out of my ears...

OUR JOB IS ONLY TO REFRESH?
Yeah well tell that to the red mage in your party who is silencing that mob coming at the puller casting ancient magic, or thundaga III... complain about the unimportance of enfeebles then :D

BLM DON'T NEED REFRESH COS THEY GO NUKE-HAPPY WHEN THEY GET IT?
Hell if they're not pulling hate (and most BLM my level know the hate line pretty well by now) and they're damaging the mob - they can nuke away to their heart's content. More damage = quicker kills = more exp for me = a happy Cesaria :D . If they nuke too hard and pull hate and they die - well they'll learn not to do that again won't they? I'm not the nuke police - I cast my spell and trust the people who get the MP to use it to do their jobs well.

DRK DON'T NEED REFRESH (OR SMN OR WHOEVER ELSE)?
Sorry but when I exp I tend to assume that everyone who has and is using MP is using it because they need it (although I might inwardly despair if a DRK is just throwing resisted nukes at the mob, a few absorb spells are more enfeebles on the mob, and I like lots of enfeebles on the mob to make it nice and soft and squishy so we can kill it fast). You use your MP, I will refresh you. I might not put a DRK in every single refresh cycle - I tend to slot them in when they're down by 90-100mp to justify the mana cost of casting it - but they will get refresh.

Sorry guys but enfeebles are important as well... dispel - try fighting crawlers or crabs when they have their buffs up (it's an enfeeble), silence - you seriously don't want to be nuked by some of the stuff things want to cast on you, sleep - or would you rather be beaten on by 3 mobs at once? They're enfeebles and they matter. That's before we add in what slow, paralyze, gravity and dia/bio can do - I'm sure you'd like it hitting you slower, and being paralyzed so it can't hit you, with lower defence or attack - less damage to you, less MP used by the WHM for healing, less downtime and faster chains - more experience points.

Know how many times I've heard refresh please since level 41...? 7 times in 30 levels - because I work my *** off in a party to make sure people have it on, at all times (even when they're on full because I want them to have that tick active so that when they use their MP it's replaced). If you're good enough you shouldn't have to hear it.

Having said that I've joined parties where people have been on my case before we've left Jeuno - if they can't ditch the memories of bad RDM and want to take it out on me then I will disband the party and explain why.

Sorry but I happen to love red mage and I don't want to see my job dissed like this, or categorized as a simple mana battery - we're not, just half of the time we're working away in the background - you might not notice what we're doing but you would sure as hell notice it if we stopped doing it.
#160 Apr 04 2005 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
I have not that much to add because almost everything is already discussed. Just want to point out one thing, WE are blm's too, most of us rdm's are dependant on leveling blm job too, so we DO know how the job works ;) whm too for that matter. we dont get into the later levels but we understand how their things work. If you are a rdm like me (61 atm) i have my blm and whm to 40, just to cover my 75 rdm and to do bcnms with all of them depending on what LS needs. I have rarely seen a blm or a whm level rdm as high because they dont depend on the subjob just like we do.

REFRESH is not a cycle, thats just the way it starts, you have to understand that, it changes as the situations demand. lets just not get into this whole argument, original poster had some things right some things wrong, but we all do. or are u perfect? this is a very informative topic for any rdm or non-rdm class, lets take it as that, not to trash ppl to the floor or to tell people what to do.

just a little bit on the topic: refresh is pld first after us for a whole lot fo reasons(not going to explain) go to the rdm forum if you want to understang why.

main healer is next, after this my priority is blm but thats after I finish doing my other duties. If the pld runs out, he goes first that the blm(yes, again: he need to keep that thing on him before u can use your mp's blm) now if the whm runs out i check his mp's if he can hold another few secs without it then i refresh blm if not hes going to wait...again, it all depends on how the party is working, dont make it seeem like all parties or individuals function the same way, there are parties that go me-pld-whm-blm at ALL times...why? because thats the way it makes that specific party or group of people function good. just remember this refresh is going to go ur way, if it doesnt ask nicely PLEASE. yes we DO forget sometimes. but a courtesy /tell like : when u get a chance could you please refresh me?

yes that sounds a lot better than: refresh plz. and it does make a diference.

thanks

thats all about refresh, the only other thing is enfeebling magic, if you dont know about how that makes chains longer as early as when you place your first foot on the dunes, you dont know a whole lot about final fantasy and how the system works.
#161 Apr 04 2005 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
RDM66 here. here's my 2 cents.

Yes I try and cast a Refresh cycle, usuing when it wears on me as an indicator that the rest will soon go. However, this almost always quickly gets thrown out the window as the mobs start rolling in. The recast timer on refresh is sufficiently long enough to be irritating and make our job difficult. If Refresh drops on the PLD before I've gotten around to re-refreshing myself, which happens alot, I will hit him first (ESP galkans), but that means i can't base PLD refresh on wether or not i have it. SO i have to watch MP bars closely, and often waste time staring at the numbers to see if they are ticking up or not, and this is harder with /smn or brds in party as i need to count how MANY mp its ticking up then. And with all the other text flying on the screen, even filtering most things, its easy to miss the message stating refresh wore. It's harder than it looks.

Basically, If you fall behind in a refresh cycyle in the heat of battle its hard to catch up smoothly many times. I always feel busy. If you see me casting an enspell, im usually doing it because I'm waiting on the recast timer of refresh and need something to fill the gap. The long recast is another reason I'm pro-melee, as i get swings in while waiting for timers often and its a nice bonus (casting ALWAYS comes first). I typically have 5/6 magic users in a party to attend to, and with all my other duties, staying on top of all of them is quite a challenge and often tedious.

I so wish the recast timer shortened or duration lengthened as we leveled up to make our lives a bit easier. I also wish names would glow in the status bar when refreshed to make it simple to see who has it and who doesnt. Another cool addition to RDM to ease this issue could be our own 10 minute seal, but ours being like a mini-chainspell affecting the next spell only, negating its remaining recast timer. If nothing else, being able to refresh myself and pld quickly back to back without waiting on timers every now and then would do wonders to help me stay on top of party mp.
#162 Apr 04 2005 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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158 posts
Hello everyone.

I will not rehash about the redmage. The redmage yes has the enfeebles, the refreshes, gravity, etc etc. But in my opinion, this is not the most powerful ability of a redmage if you are a redmage / whitemage (this is aimed at personperson and others who debase the redmages.

Redmages are the guardian angels of a party. They have one ability shared by the blackmage called Chainspell. Situation is this.

Puller pulls a mob. Link occurs. Pop occurs. One mob turns into 3. Party fights. Party gets beat down. Whitemage in group does Divine/Curaga. Party still gets beat down. Whitemage does Benediction. Whitemage becomes target one. It is right here Mr or Ms Redmage you come in.

Cast Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx. If its just the whitemage getting beat, Convert-CureIV the whitemage. If the whole party is still getting beat down as well as the whitemage: Chainspell, Divine Seal, Curaga (any level depending on level of you and the group be it 1 or 2), Curaga, Curaga, Curaga Convert, Curaga, Curaga, Curaga, etc etc. If mana is needed by the group, Refreshes then as well mixed in. If you don't have whitemage subbed, you can still rip off multiple Cure IV's. This, in my opinion, is the most powerful aspect of redmage. Enfeebles are grand, refreshes are great, but this one ability alone saves the party. So, if you ask me, and playing monk, whitemage, redmage, and thief to boot, I will forever make sure I have a redmage in the party. Whether I am playing a mana caster or not, the redmage is the guardian angel of a group.
Kudos to all the redmages that put up with the crap from others. I pray you all will always stay around
Sincerely
Korde
#163 Apr 04 2005 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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521 posts
Korde wrote:
They have one ability shared by the blackmage called Chainspell.

If the whole party is still getting beat down as well as the whitemage: Chainspell, Divine Seal, Curaga (any level depending on level of you and the group be it 1 or 2), Curaga, Curaga, Curaga Convert, Curaga, Curaga, Curaga, etc etc.


oO

No seriously. oO;

First, blackmages don't have chainspell.

Second, defining a job's function based on a 2 hour does not define a job at all. We only get to do it once every 2 hours, so our other abilities absolutely define us more than this so-called guardian angel role.

Third, when would your entire party ever be taking enough damage within 30 seconds to warrant a chainspell curaga spam? I can think of no situation in my 62 levels of RDM where THE ENTIRE PT needed a cure every 2 seconds. You're going to pull massive hate for absolutely no reason. Divine seal + curaga once and then cure the tank sure... but chances are you'll be worry ing about your hp and not the tank's soon enough. A better way to deal with links would be sleeping the link instead of getting both of them to hate you in no time flat.

If you want to be a guardian angel, it's Chainspell -> Escape.

Edited, Mon Apr 4 13:04:45 2005 by Enyyx
#164 Apr 04 2005 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
1. refresh a privilege not a right

That's like a Paladin saying that tanking is a privilege, and right now he just feels like being a damage dealer.

Any player who doesn't use his skills to best help the party is an experience leech.

2. RDM has to magic burst

RDMs who think this haven't looked at the damage they do compared to a BLM. An unbursted nuke from a BLM will do MORE damage than a bursted nuke from an RDM. Clearly refreshing the BLM takes priority over MBing.

3. Refreshing the BLM is optional

An RDM with this attitude is an experience leech. In a good party, the BLM can use up his MP faster than he can recover it and still not pull hate off of the tank. Refreshing the BLM means faster kills, less healing required by the WHM, etc.

4. I don't want to use convert

Huh? When I play RDM I slowly drain down my MP and then use convert as soon as its available (but waiting until the fight is finished).

5. RDM's don't have much MP so we can't cast refresh

Who the hell told you to play an Elvaan spellcaster anyway?

6. Enfeebling is crucial

Parties can do just fine without any enfeebles being cast. Slow/Para/Gravity get resisted a lot and don't stay on that long. They are not really very powerful spells. Bard buffs are a lot more powerful than RDM enfeebles.

Enfeebling is what the RDM should do while waiting on the recast timer on Refresh. Refresh should take priority over any enfeebles.

7. order of Refresh

The RDM should cast refresh on himself first, and then if he's doing his job properly the order doesn't really matter because he'll hit each player within a few seconds of his Refresh expiring.

8. RDMs are the biggest whiners

This is true. I'd always pick a BRD over an RDM because most BRDs play their job a lot better. A BRD will never tell you that Ballad or Madrigal is a privilege not a right.
#165 Apr 04 2005 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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2,216 posts
I don't get why there's so much hate towards us - I love red mage and I'll stick up for it like mad because it can be so good. Unfortunately it can also be a fast track for a fair few morons to level 70 when they can't beat Maat and give up.

As for convert - there is always a reason why I do / don't convert. I know exactly where I am on my convert timer - sometimes I convert bang on the 10 minute mark, sometimes I might keep it back for a few minutes and go easy on my MP usage for a few fights - doing that has saved the party a few times when the WHM has ran out of MP or something and I've been able to throw up stoneskin - convert mid-fight (because yes I do this on a regular basis with buffs up) and keep the party alive. Don't tell me when to use convert though - I'm pretty good at managing my MP by now and knowing how to play things.

But if I join a party to get some of the stuff being said here about how we all suck at our job and the like - I just won't leave Jeuno with you - it's not worth me spending my free time to be moaned at because of your bad past experiences.
#166 Apr 04 2005 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
I spent alot of time trying to discover the perfect refresh cycle, what I found is, there isn't one. Everytime I would get an exp party I would place my refresh prioritys much the same as the O.P.
I would then do exacly as the party asked me to and try and learn from it. The problem is when that party ends or some mebers are replaced, again they want something different. again I change what I do to keep the party happy.

What I found is you will never able to follow any set pattern, and for me, becuase I hate having to completely change what I do for every party, I decided red mage may not be the job for me.

I never became angry or upset when asked for a refresh even if "I" thought the person did not need it. I would refresh them when asked, and include them in the next cycle. If this effeced the party as a whole then so be it, I always tried to keep the peace.

At the present time I have sold most of my RDM gear and have started levling monk/warrior instead. I find the game to be much more enjoyable now. this isnt the solution for everyone, but maybee for some. In the end,isn't the point to have fun?
#167 Apr 04 2005 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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831 posts
I'm a lvl 54 DRK. Usually I'll make a deal with the RDM. If you can Refresh me every time my MP drops below 90, I will cast Absorb-MND before she casts her/his enfeebles. On the rare case that a RDM just flat out refuses to refresh me, it's really no problem for me. During every pt before lvl 40 I would make my own pineapple juices/melon juices, so I just go back to doing that, and not even bother casting Absorb-MND.

Oh and BTW, a pt doesn't need a RDM to function properly. I've been in many pts without a RDM, and we've always maneged to get up to chain 4. As long as your WHM and PLD have Dark Staffs you should be fine with whatever support you get, SMN or BRD.
#168 Apr 05 2005 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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421 posts
Im a lv 39rdm, and truthfully, im scared of the whole refresh thing. I've done wonders without having refresh, and Im sure i still can, but alot of ppl on here make it out to sound like once i hit lvl 41, i can't do anything but refresh. Im sure i didn't lvl my subjobs just to cast one spell, or to be called someone's refresh *****. And im positive that i don't have my enfeebling skill at 120+ just not to use it anymore. This kind of thread would make alot of future Rdms think twice about doing a job i personally love to do. We can fit into any party slot if we have to (except being a tank and a strong melee IMO..that's just wrong), and we have some class only spells, not to mention fast cast...any rate, i think that was kinda harsh thing to say personperson. I also don't understand how ppl that aren't a rdm, can tell a rdm how they should do thier job...
#169 Apr 05 2005 at 9:32 AM Rating: Default
Why are you RDMs so ****** about refresh? Do u see a blm crying every time it has to cast warp II on the pt to return you home? No! Do u see a bard cry when he has to ballad the mages? No! Do u see the whm cry when the ninja asked for haste? No!

You’re given a spell to help fellow castors/players, USE IT!!

You RDMs should all be happy, at least your job has a mind of your own. Think about Bards, we get constant spam “Dispel!!” Dispel!!” DEX SONG!!! PRELUDE PLZ!!! @@@” We are 100% parties *****. So wtf are you all so complaining about? “Oh no I have to cast refresh…. oh no…. but if I don’t, ill get less xp per hour…and if I do… ill be increasing the overall xp of the pt…hmmm

So plz, if you wana rate me down go for it, I’m expressing my opinion jus like everyone else here and trying to be blunt cuz I’m tired of putting everything soft for others.

At lvl 41, yu have a new responsibility.
Get over it.
Don’t like it?
Lvl another job.
#170 Apr 05 2005 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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1,452 posts
Quote:
Why are you RDMs so ****** about refresh? Do u see a blm crying every time it has to cast warp II on the pt to return you home? No! Do u see a bard cry when he has to ballad the mages? No! Do u see the whm cry when the ninja asked for haste? No!


I am not a RDM with Refresh; my RDM is only up to level 21 so far. However, I feel a great deal of empathy for RDMs who are constantly bugged to cast a particular spell. Note that it isn't the casting that's annoying, it's the constant haranguing to cast.

Let's face it--none of us like being told what to do every step of the way. It's condescending, belittling, and just plain rude. Does a tank get annoyed when people spam "PROVOKE PLZ"? Does a white mage get aggravated when his/her screen fills up with "CURE ERASE PARALYZED OMG"? Would you, a bard, not be supremely irritated if a party were to harass you to use Magic Finale? You probably would, because that--like Refresh and Provoke and Erase and a number of other spells/skills--has a timer on it.

I hate being directed to do my job (WHM) because I feel confident that I know my own job better than that melee who's never played a mage job knows it. Say "POISONA" all you want, but if the DRK who's about to use his WS needs a Blindna and you already have a Regen II on you, you're going to have to wait for it. If the PLD just got a Refresh, no amount of hollering "REFRESH PLZ!!!" will speed up that timer; let the RDM do the job that he/she knows better than the rest of us how to play.

That's not to say there aren't awful RDMs who don't ever bother to throw out a Refresh, but you know what? You have the option of throwing that RDM out of the party and you should exercise that option, same as you would if you had a WHM who spammed Banish spells instead of healing people.

As for BLMs getting Refresh, who isn't happy with a nuker/emergency healer/"Escape artist" with plenty of MP? :)

One last thing---a little sharing of duties goes a LONG way. If I'm lucky enough to have a RDM in the party, I always let him/her know that I'm willing to take on all Hasting to allow that RDM the freedom to do the enfeebling and refreshing more easily. My husband, a BLM, is always willing to share the load by throwing out the occasional cure spell, Erase, and Bio II. By sharing the work, all three of us mages get bursts in on Light SCs and have the MP and time to do it; it works like a charm.

ANY job becomes "************ when the person playing it is demeaned, belittled, or ordered around. Red mages have every right to get cranky with people who bark orders at them.
#171 Apr 06 2005 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Im sure i didn't lvl my subjobs just to cast one spell, or to be called someone's refresh *****.

This "Refresh *****" term is something that RDMs themselves made up. I've never heard of other jobs demeaining the RDM.

In fact, an interesting thing about playing RDM is that, post-41, on several occasions people told me I was the best RDM they ever partied with. People notice when the RDM is doing a good job.

The job is more than just refresh. Between Refresh spells you cast debuffs, throw out backup cures, and cast Blizzard if you have extra MP. You use Convert ever 10 minutes.

However, unfortunately many RDMs have gotten the idea from the stupid Brady guide that the RDM can do WHATEVER he wants and has to answer to no one. So there's a lot of bitter RDMs.
#172 Apr 10 2005 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
the thing is, Red Mages really dont have a "job" in the party other than to ease the "jobs" on other jobs. a combination of jobs can do their "job." a whm can use paralyze/slow and other stuff and a Blm can blind and w/e. see what rdm's do is allow other jobs to just do their "jobs" and save mp. therefore, extending chains. a whm is a better whm if it doesnt have to watch for enfeebs to drop. a blm can save the mp it would use to stick an enfeeb to nuke the mob. what refresh does is make it more evident(sp?) that RDM are there to saved the mp of other jobs. i've been a RDM for 41 lvls also ive been a thf for 25, DRK for 19 and other things. yes, these numbers do not boast much but i do seem things. Parties with RDMs reachs chains much easier. yes, of course u can have a really good party without a RDM. I've had a really good party without a RDM. i beilieve it was THF THF THF PLD WHM BLM. Yes, we did reach high chains (got to and out of Qufim in 9-11 hours). but in party where mages are important (where PLD takes alot of dmg, whm need to heal more, mob taking low phsycal dmg, BLM needs to nuke more), RDMs are
nessescary for high chains.
#173 Apr 10 2005 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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143 posts
"So here is what I do as a BLM when I am put on the non-refresh list... I wait, and wait, could be a couple of minutes... I build up enough MP (150) and then Warp II the RDM home to think about it and say (Hello!) to the new RDM in the party. "

that is being an *******..

i have never blisted anyone before but if this ever happened in a pt i was in i would blist and never pt with that person again
#174 Apr 15 2005 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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421 posts
Well, Im a lvl 49 rdm now. And i really have to say, this refresh thing is higly overrated. Okay i got a new spell. it's at the top of my list. it lasts for about 3mins and if you have a good cycle, then you kno when your need to recast on everyone. when in battle i have about 465mp. I almost have it down to a sicence now. That mp can last me in a good pt (me, whm, blm, and pld) 10 mins before i have to convert. If anyone has pted with me, they would know that i love to cast magic like i just manaforted too.

The point im trying to make here is that i have no problem keeping everyone refreshed and casting my enfeebles. I take a break often because most of my enfeebles stick (except gravity...but that's another story) and i get some of that lost mp.

Now, to agree with my other rdms, refresh isn't something that gives you unlimited mp. you should still practice good mp conservation. and IMO, no one should be outcasting the rdm when it comes to spellcasting. If you have a blm nuking a crater to the ground and then asking for refresh when he doesn't have enough mp to MB, that's when it's time to pull him/her aside and talk to him/her about mp conservation.

Asking for refresh if you are in a pt with a bad rdm is a good idea, he may get pissed off, but it will keep him on his toes. However, if the rdm in the pt is casting and your refresh wears off, don't say anything...he's looking at the screen and knows what's going on. Keeping these things in mind IMO will keep your rdm happy and the xp rolling.
#175 Apr 15 2005 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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1,029 posts
Another post of level 52 red mage about how refresh must be distributed. It is not even funny how often these posts pop up. It almost looks like some rdms have nothing better to do then discuss this particular aspect of their job over and over and over and over again.

I am not gona argue the order of people in a refresh cycle and I am not gona argue priorities of that particular red mage. However, a red mage that does not refresh BLM will be gone from my party, or I will be gone from his. Fortunately many (in fact most) RDMs yet have brain enough to read these "guides" with a grain of salt, so most of them DO refresh BLM even when we have two BLMs in a party
#176 Apr 15 2005 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
My only problem with RDM's is that they stick to that order and dont' use any smarts when dishing out refresh..

I can understand the cycle norm is RDM->PLD->WHM->etc

but if the mob is on its way and I'm at 50% mp and the rdm is almost full.. you'd think the RDM would be smart enough to cast refresh on me first, then himself and adapt to what is currently happening in the party.. BUT NO!

the cast it always on themselves first, so those 30 secs as the mob comes in 18 seconds are wasted on the recast timer for refresh,

RDM have to be more perceptive to whats happening during battle and after battle, and I dont see them doing so for the most part

after battle is you see the PLD"s MP not ticking up and everyone's else is, then maybe forgo the cycle and get refresh on the PLD right away...

Yah RDM can do alot in parties, from refresh to enfeebles to helping heal to helping MB.. but you are built for this!.. I can't stand a RDM saying "I have alot to do, you';ll get refresh when you get it"

you have fast cast! you can spit out 4 spells in the time it takes for blm to cast one nuke!... they give you this so you can spam support spells on the party and mob at the same time...

REFRESH--> SLOW--->BLIND-->CURE oh look refresh is ready again!

if refresh is a privledge like some dolt above me mentioned, then so is voking, and next time the mob runs at you I hope the tank decides that he is not at your point of the voke cycle, and he'll get to you when he feels like it...

Refresh etiquette my ***... do you job RDM's and quit you fuggin whining...80% of the goofballs and little babies I run into during this game are RDM's, complaining that they aren't there to do this or that.. your job is support and therefor one of themost flexible jobs in the game, learn to adapt, fill a role, and use the strengths that RDM is known for...

Jeebus Mcchrist
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