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Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow

#202 May 30 2005 at 11:57 AM Rating: Default
Lady Noriko wrote:

nineth. Black Mages do not need refresh. of all the jobs your the last in the list unless you doing a BCNM or other like battle that is a pure black mage nuke fest. you have the highest mana regen when sitting then anyone else. and your the one job that can not afford to blow all you mana in one shot since that means you will get aggro and die. if you get refresh then yippie. but you do not need it. more black mages die because they took refresh as a excuse to go all out on the nukes then for any other reason at upper lvls.


wrong

bottom line. this whole post was complete garbage.

refresh is the only reason you get party invites.

if there ever was an RDM in my party who refused to cast refresh on anyone who asked for it, they would be replaced. bottom line. and i know i am not the only party leader who feels this way.

that is the same as invited a WHM who says, oh I will only heal the tank because he is the only one who should take damage.

heres your refresh ettiquete. cast it or find a new party you whiney little girl.
#203 May 30 2005 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
/ma "Refresh" <p0-6>


What does that do? refresh everyone in the pt? O.o;

~ Usually, I hate when people ask for refreshes. Because people don't ask, they beg, and they kick and scream like a 1 year old. Those are the people, that don't get refreshed. Those are the people, that if they get in a pt with me, I recommend(to the pt leader, in /tell), that they are not a bad mage, but that they bog down my way of playing, and they annoy me to no end. There is only 2 exceptions to this, Paladin, and a Bard, if we don't have many mages(I've had a pt with pld, me, brd, thf, sam, rng). It wasn't hard that I was main healer, Regen is a life saver, and the pld was the tank, so I only had 3 mages, including myself, to refresh. Easy job, I tell the BRD that I will refresh him, since he is the backup healer, and that PT went suprisingly well.
#204 May 30 2005 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
I know I would boot a Red Mage who refused to refresh, bye bye, if I am going to have a mage not offering me any mp refreshing id rather have another black mage and ***** debuffs just kill it faster.
#205 May 30 2005 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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4,400 posts
Quote:
wrong

bottom line. this whole post was complete garbage.

refresh is the only reason you get party invites.

if there ever was an RDM in my party who refused to cast refresh on anyone who asked for it, they would be replaced. bottom line. and i know i am not the only party leader who feels this way.

that is the same as invited a WHM who says, oh I will only heal the tank because he is the only one who should take damage.

heres your refresh ettiquete. cast it or find a new party you whiney little girl.


You sir/madame are my hero!
#206 May 30 2005 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
Nevermind, the whole necro thing was totally worth it to read Erawyn's response.
#207 May 30 2005 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
As a RDM, refreshing a BLM usually isn't every fight unlike myself, PLD, or healer.

Why does everyone think we are nothing but refresh whores?

Enfeebling is our A+ skill. At lv65, a WHM or BLM can't sleep a mob like a RDM does. Enfeebs like Para, Slow, Blind, Dispel, Silence, etc etc.... are what keeps the tank and party alive.

Enhance is B rated which includes refresh,haste,stoneskin, etc.

Elemental is C+ which makes us 2nd best to a BLM. The stupid comments on how a BLM blows away our dmg output is crazy. Chances are the BLM are casting high lv GA spells. A RDM casting Blizz II vs a BLM casting Blizz II is very close in dmg.

RDM's only get Stone III, Water III, Fire III, Aero III, and Thunder III. A BLM has anicient magics and IV tier spells plus those awesome GA spells.

The only members I don't refresh usually are DRK's that spam nukes... not absorbs or stun.
#208 May 30 2005 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
Personally, I don't refresh unless you're regularly dropping below 75% mana. I partied today with a black mage who hardly nuked at all, rested through most of the fights, and still demanded refresh; he didn't drop below 400mp the whole party.

So instead of refreshing him, I just hasted our Ninja. Same mana, better use.
#209 May 30 2005 at 7:51 PM Rating: Default
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105 posts
in simple english one of the RDMs roles is to refresh. I dont quite know why you said a BLM doesnt need refresh but a good RDM and I have seen very few of them keeps a tab on the screen when a refresh expires. Nothing personal I just know when a RDM is doing its job. My friend who is a 75 RDM will eat you up for dinner for saying its not part of your job.

Goodluck!
#210 Jun 21 2005 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
NIN: Cool.. i got us a sixth... a drk
RNG: ?!?
DRK: (Hello!)
WHM: hi
BLM: hey
RNG: sup
SAM: ok.. lets get going.. i want to get my lvl 2nite!
DRK: Wow.. with this much DD were gonna be doing some ultra sic damage
NIN: where you guys want to go?
BLM: tunnel?
RNG: and fight what?
NIN: crabs?
BLM: Can't fight crabs.. no dispell
WHM: beetles?
RNG: same problem. it'll take all day to kill em once they def up
NIN: how bout ants?
BLM: um... the blm ants cast some wicked bad magic
NIN: just stun em
BLM: i can only use stun so often
BLM: and it gives me ultra hate :(
NIN: well you and the whm can both silence.. right?
WHM: my enfeebling sux azz.. blm have to do it
BLM: mine silence never sticks..
NIN: well your just gonna have to save your elemental seal for the blm ants and use it to get silence to stick
DRK: that will slow down the chains for sure
BLM: are there any bats this lvl we could fight?
RNG: maybe we shoulda got a rdm instead of a drk???
WHM: or a bard.
NIN: bard? yah right.. they are all off doing BCNMs
WHM: plus, it woulda been nice to have refresh
NIN: well crap... there aren't even any rdm's looking right now
RNG: thats odd... there is usually a bunch on
WHM: i think this is a bad omen.
NIN: well lets just break and hope can get picked up as replacements by other parties.
#211 Jun 21 2005 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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445 posts
I just had to make a quick comment. I am a BLM, and any intelligent BLM knows the ways to a) keep from being their defensless tush beaten on and b) how to conserve MP.

I love how some posters immediately commented on how BLMs go 'nuke-crazy' after getting a refresh. Generally, if we are so lucky as to get a RDM, I'll just do a {refresh}{please} into the chat and keep going. If I get it, thank you, if not, oh well. I've learned by this point in my FFXI existance that I am NOT a refresh priority.

Just saying that not all BLMs are like that ;.; I haven't died *as my BLM, in an EXP party* in several weeks, and only that from accidently Blizzaga II'ing in the wrong place...on two full life Robber Crabs >< I calmly told them to not cure/help me, walked off and let the crab kill me so it wouldn't return for my party. I got a raise and got my level a few hours later. {word}
#212 Jun 21 2005 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
ROTF did i just hear you say RDM are horrible for wanting to keep refresh on themselves before BLM??? ok paladin i can they do need it whm maybe before we get it but a good BLM should almost NEVER need refresh. I have never givin a taru taru blm refresh, for the main fact that THEY DONT NEED IT. ok after the 4th chain or so yes i can see them needed mana maybe but still before the rdm gets it???? please dont talk about things you dont understand and the fact is you CANNOT criticize a rdm on refresh equitique unless you have been a RDM with refresh yourself. If the rdm wants to refresh himself before everyone else? GOOD thats what i do becuase you know why? becuase we keep the chains going. ever tried to do an effective chain post 50 without a rdm? it cant be done unless you have godly gear and are a godly player. Now before you say anything else stupid like that go level your RDM to 41 THEN critizse us for refreshing ourself before the BLM..rotf
#214 Dec 22 2005 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
Another good metaphor is a paladin who has 'more important' things to do than provoke, thinking it's a *privlage* to the party to have a palidin that provokes and everyone should just back off and recognize that--getting all stuffy when people suggest that maybe that's his job.
=================================================================

Ahh yes. 'Provoke'. What a useful /ja. I wonder who we have to thank for that? Oh, wait, I know! The Warrior! Gee talk about useful jobs. lol I wounder why Warriors are always overlooked?
#215 Dec 22 2005 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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423 posts
It amazes me how little appreciation the rdm gets. That people really only invite us for refresh. The thing is, the way alot of chat filters are setup, you don't even notice 75% of what we do.

A mob that can't move, can't see, can't evade, who can't hit as hard, can't take hits as well, or who has his buffs removes goes from IT++ to IT.

Did we all forget the Dia test and a mob conning high def to just a reqular con?

No one appreciates a very good rdm because when we are doing are job right, the only thing you should notice is exp flying and refresh being tossed. But refresh is not even close to all we do.

But comments to the effect that the only reason we get invites is refresh show how misunderstood a job can be.
#216 Dec 22 2005 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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240 posts
Quote:
wrong

bottom line. this whole post was complete garbage.

refresh is the only reason you get party invites.

if there ever was an RDM in my party who refused to cast refresh on anyone who asked for it, they would be replaced. bottom line. and i know i am not the only party leader who feels this way.


And you sir, are a moron :) Stupid BLMs.. reason i've come to severely dislike a certain BLM on my server who i had to party with a few times. I'm a 55blm with a rdm in my party and I do perfectly fine without refresh, we do not NEED it.

Party i was in.. Pld, drk, sam, thf, blm, rdm.. something like that. I was primary healer and the blm was pestering me for refresh. He was at like 800/900 mp, he hadn't mbursted once in like 12 battles even though there'd been many skillchains. He was throwing Dispel (yes, rdm sub on him) at complete random like he was trying to level his enfeebling, and he also had one of those level 68 refresh cloaks.

I am NOT going to refresh someone that idiotic, or someone like you. Learn how to conserve your mp since you have a lot more than we do and and more tools to get it back, not to mention you can sit on your *** a lot more during the battle than we can. (Unless there's a gob or something equally as threatening that needs Stun, a blm can sit on his *** all he likes until the mburst)

I agree with the OP and have stated my point. If you don't like it, suck it, and try to get along without us and see how well you do. Learn to adapt just like I have to when i'm asked to be primary healer, since i sure as hell don't like doing that.
#217 Dec 22 2005 at 8:14 PM Rating: Default
I would like to point out to the other red mages: You do not need a /party macro and <call> for your refresh spell. It's annoying to go through dynamis, and every rdm I encounter has "[Refresh] <t> [You can have this]", and then "<call> [Refresh] [Ready!]". Pretty damned annoying, and completely unnecessary. There's a reason why /echo exists; so you don't repeat the same boring crap over and over in party chat. Almost all of my macros have an /echo attached to it, because I don't need to see it in light blue to read it.
#218 Dec 22 2005 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
Refresh only has a 16 second recast with FCIII I believe, not sure about IV and V though.

Also, I usually go me, white mage, then paladin.

When a black mage runs out, they can just rest in the middle of a fight. Its not the best idea, but they can live without it. I've never seen a dark knight spamming absorb so I never give it to them. When you get refresh, red mages should be the only secondary healers. And besides, after you and the other two refresh, its burning your mp. The only time I cast it more than 3 times is in manaburn parties.

If someone asks for it right when it wears off, they never get it again. Or if they ask for it when I'm healing, they have to wait. Just becuase I have enough MP for one, doesn't mean they get it right away. Like the OP said, everyone has lived without it for 40 levels, another 5 minutes isn't going to hurt you.

Edited, Thu Dec 22 23:20:39 2005 by ArmaniofIfrit
#219 Dec 23 2005 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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439 posts
Necro-posting FTW...lol

My Refresh spell takes (cast/recast) about 19 seconds...my macro rounds this up and says 20 second recast.

20 seconds (give or take a smidge from lag) after you see "Sensubean begins casting Refresh" I can cast it again.

As for party comments, the only spells that have comments in it are:

1) Refresh
2) Dispel
3) Convert

Refresh is so all the people with "/p {Refresh}{please}{Can I have it?}<call>" macros don't have room to say "well, I didn't see it" when I get upset at them for spamming that stupid thing.

And the smart ones know that when they see that macro going off in party chat, that -their- Refresh is about to go down and that I'm already aware of the situation.

Dispel...well, when I first got that spell (dinged, read, macroed, new chain) and the beetle buffed up again, I yelled at the moniter "Oh No You Don't!!!" as I was hitting the macro...so since then, Dispel has read "Oh no you don't...{Dispel} => <t>"

Convert is easy...the party healer is usually paying attention to the health bars in the lower corner "out of the corner of their eye" as they are doing stuff, and a massive loss of health is very disturbing to them.

First major use I had was in the low 40's when my LS was shorthanded for Refresh on a Hakutaku run (did 6 hats if memory serves) and I offered to come along...those fights lasted long enough I sometimes converted -twice- in a battle, which was driving the WHM there nuts (lived over it just fine though).

They thought I was getting hit by AoE or had picked up a link...after the 2nd or 3rd hat, they told me to stop scaring them or they were coming over to my house IRL with a baseball bat and -making- me stop.

So henceforth, my Convert has a party comment, plus a call, and will have it as long as I play RDM...but the rest of my stuff neither needs nor has space for a comment line.

As for being invited for Refresh, if you don't get Dispels, you don't get chains (too many mobs have def-up buffs)...but "they" are right about one thing.

Refresh is considered so important, that an Onion Gear character with "Onion Gear Only, Refresh and Dispel Only" in their seacom will get invites all the way to endgame...especially if they are "tight" on keeping Refresh going and Dispel timely.

Which is why so many jobs -hate- RDM (post-refresh, that's all we need, period) and why so many /idiots, /morons and /n00bz want to do RDM, because they can get away with murder or worse so long as they have that Crack, and they make no bones about it.

With a good Enfeebler in the party, have them -stop- enfeebling for a bit...man, those mobs got tougher...but all anyone sees is Refresh (because -their- mana is going up) and Dispel (nice large visual and a line "Mob's Buff Go Bye-Bye" in the log window).

As for Refresh and who gets it...usual order is Me, Mana-Tank, Main-Healer, All Else Situationally, Warrior, Thief, Monster, Moogle, Invisible GM, Pet...........Person who spams "/p {Refresh}{please}{Can I have it?}<call>" macro.

And depending on how the mana is lasting and who's actually casting, I can and have had the DRK higher than the WHM in the Refresh Cycle.

Thanks for the dead-horse though, I was running low on glue for some of my crafting.


Galantdramon
------------
Sensubean on Midguardsormr
#220 Dec 23 2005 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
becuase we keep the chains going. ever tried to do an effective chain post 50 without a rdm

Get off your high horse, you are not gods gift to Vana'diel. Refresh is nice, but thats all it is it is not some miracle. Parties need a red mage or a bard in a party past 50, not for refresh or ballad, but for the enfeebling. That is what keeps exp flowing, thats what keeps the chains going, refresh is just a little bonus. People need to learn to stop relying on it.
#221 Dec 23 2005 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
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152 posts
As having played through the job RDM twice, I'll throw in my word.

Yes, it is your job to refresh people.

Yes, you should refresh people that have mana, including DRK's.

Keep in mind this equals less downtime for all in the party. More xp is to be had.

No, just because you have to refresh 5/6 people in your party doesn't mean you can skate on other things like enfeebs and haste. You are a SUPPORT job.

You have Convert for a reason. Use it.

You can make macro's for a reason, use them.

If you make your macro's intelligently, you can probably beat off while watching The Simpsons while xp'ing your RDM. It's not hard.

Casting Refresh is not hard, I don't get it.

If you throw out Refresh to the people that require it before-hand, they wouldn't have to ask like a #%#@ for it. Oh noes, you have to press maybe two buttons in conjunction with each other. So hard.

Finally, yes, I really am a high level RDM.

Accept it. Get better at your job. Stop complaining about your job. If you don't like it, try MNK or something.

Peace.
#222 Dec 23 2005 at 2:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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109 posts
I've leveled five jobs past 40, but I absolutely love my Red Mage job. IMHO, the Red Mage job is the most flexible and therefore complicated job in this game. But, I like to use ALL of the powers of the red mage, so it does get complicated sometimes.

Refresh? heh... Refresh is not a problem. Never has been. In almost 2 yrs of playing and 75 levels of red mage, I think I've been asked for refresh by maybe 3 people. Why? Cuz, I just do it. I set the cycle: me, pld, main heal, blm and/or smn, drk . Then I cast enfeebs, debuffs, backup heal, and MB in-between the refreshes. Nothing hard about the job, but yes, it can be 'intense'. I rarely ever get to 'rest', but I like it that way.

Also, unless someone is just blatantly doing a horrible job, I don't have time to keep up with who is using thier mp efficiently other than me. So, I dont' worry about other's mp. I just refresh them. It's thier job to use thier mp effectively. It's PART of my job to throw that refresh.

My job is to do everything in my power to keep that chain going. I have to be flexible and alert, or the xp slows. My job changes depending on party make-up. I have to keep ALL my skills up so I can be effective with all my skills.. .this includes melee. I rarely ever melee in an xp party anymore, unless I'm with friends and we are just having some fun. But, I need that initial Spirits Within to land and do some dmg on Genbu, so I've made sure and kept my sword skill capped from a very low level.

A 'typical' casting of one fight in an xp party by me now at 75:
Refresh <me>
Silence <t> (if mob is magely)
Dispel <t> (if needed)
Dia/Bio <t>
Refresh PLD
Paralyze <t>
Gravity and/or Blind <t>
Refresh Main Healer
Haste PLD or a DD (unless Main healer is doing it)
Refresh BLM/SMN/DRK
MB
Dead mob... next...
Rest only between chains and not even then if you have a very happy and excited puller. LoL Eat good food (usually Brain stew lately), convert on Chain 3, and keep going.

IMHO....
The keys to doing this job effectively are KNOWLEDGE (of my capabilities), FLEXIBILITY and ATTENTIVENESS.


Edited, Fri Dec 23 03:08:39 2005 by EmeraldZT

Edited, Fri Dec 23 03:07:47 2005 by EmeraldZT

Edited, Fri Dec 23 10:51:14 2005 by EmeraldZT
#223 Dec 23 2005 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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56 posts
I would just like to thank all the RDM out there that agree that a Paladin DOES NEED REFRESH! The more mana we keep the more we can heal. This equals more hate for us, and less mana from the white mage. I do not believe that a RDM main job is to refresh. I agree that they have many things that they need to take care of before-during-after battle. However, refreshing the tank, IMO should be a priority. We don't have the option of eating mp+ and mph foods like the mages, unless you want us to be bashed to death and take you all with us. I personally hate to party without a rdm post 41. All the way around they provide great tools that have the potential to make outstanding parties. With a good RDM I have been able to keep hate through crazy skillchains and the MBs that ensue afterwards, and also able to skillchain every fight if necessary.

Thank you RDMs for a job well-done! =D
[b][/b]
#224 Dec 23 2005 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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164 posts
i practice refresh etiquette all the time. i invite a brd.
#225 Dec 23 2005 at 8:29 AM Rating: Default
Its the rdm's job to refresh my ***...

if you say its not, then its not my job to provoke, hell it even comes from a sub job, im just supposed to standing there healing whoever aggro gets on
#226 Dec 23 2005 at 9:43 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
forth. relise just because you have a mana bar does not mean you get refresh. the normal cycle/priority list goes Self > Palidin > Main Healers > other healers > Puller (if puller is using spells to pull). if your not in this list refresh is a plus but not a right. even then other then the first 3 you should not always expect to have refresh going.


Refresh Cycle SHOULD be:
Self > PLD > WHM > SMN > BLM > DRK
(Skipping the ones that aren't in the party)

And you're (Usually) not going to have more than 4 of the above-mentioned jobs in your party... so you SHOULD be casting Refresh on all of them.
It is possible.

Quote:
fifth. remember unless there are more then one red mage in a PT (a rarity at higher lvls). a red mage has many things to do. several of which most likey are higher priority then your crack. even more so if you not near running out. in most cases the basic 3 debuffs (paralyze , slow , gravity) take priority over refresh unless the healer is really low on mana. and even then why is the puller pulling then?? Palidins are a much higher priority then anyone but the redmage themselves. White Mages(healers) are important and should be refreshed "IF" they are using thier mana properly. white mages that nuke or cast cure III when cure II is needed will finding themselves having a chat with the red or even the PT leader. same applies to all mana users.


Refresh > Debuff mob > Debuff mob > Refresh > etc.
REFRESH IS A HIGHER PRIORITY THAN ENFEEBLES!
Enfeebles are a lot quicker to cast than Refresh is.
cast Refresh first.
ONLY exception to this is DISPELL.

Quote:
seventh. refresh is NOT a right its a priviledge. you went 40+ lvls without it you can survive without it. the only people that can be said to "NEED" refresh are the red mage , palidin and who evers main healer. anyone else does not need it.


no.
If you aren't casting Refresh on everyone that needs it, you aren't doing your job.
Refresh EVERYONE that needs it.
RDM > PLD > WHM > SMN > BLM > DRK


You should also be making sure that Refresh is NOT on someone no more than a couple of seconds.
as soon as it wears off you should be ready to cast it again.

and if people are constantly asking you to refresh.. maybe it's an indication that YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR JOB RIGHT!

I took RDM to 73, and was only asked for Refresh twice.
and that was around 41-43.



Edited, Fri Dec 23 09:47:32 2005 by PiannaRDM
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