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Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow

#27 Jun 18 2004 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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/sigh

now i know why im lvling BST right now :/
#28 Jun 18 2004 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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I think you missed something, personperson. I'd try to take the time to explain it to you, but I get the impression you're not going to listen to it anyway. Suffice it to say, you're wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if people come out of the woodwork to tell you so.
#29 Jun 18 2004 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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6,858 posts
I didn't read all of the responses, but isn't refresh 150mp at the cost of 40mp?
#30 Jun 18 2004 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
compelling agrument :p
#31 Jun 18 2004 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Much like I don't enjoy slamming my fingers in car doors repeatedly, I don't enjoy trying to spell things out for people who've already made up their minds. Agreeing to disagree seems to save a lot more energy in the long run, especially since - dude - it's a game. If you're laboring under some delusion, it's not my job to lift the metaphorical veil.
#32 Jun 18 2004 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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608 posts
Quote:
compelling agrument :p


scroll up and Re-read all the posts after your first one ... ppl just dont want to explain it agian (you seem to not be comprehending what was said in response to your 1st post) that is all ^^
#33 Jun 18 2004 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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909 posts


Quote:
Quote:
The only thing that absolutely scares me is that a paladin expecting a refresh that doesn't come could lead to other people dying. I still have my juice on me, just tell me when refresh isn't coming for a bit and i will use that instead.


Wouldn't the refresh of the juice and the RDM's refresh stack? I know that Ballade and Juice stacks, but I'm not sure if RDM refresh stacks with juice.



Unfortunately it does not stack with juice. Juice gives the effect of "Refresh", so they will override just like casting multiple refreshes on the same target.

Yes, both juice and refresh stack with Mage's Ballad and SMN Auto Refresh. Just not with each other.


And yes, I love red mages. ^.^

#34 Jun 18 2004 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
I know that people take it very personally when they talk about the value of their classes. And it's really a tribute to what you think of Sqeenix if you say that 'everything is perfectly equal between all the classes and they all are evenly valuable across classes at all levels'. Heh--think about if for a second though--this assumption doesn't even make sense.

I've played a Theif before 15, and a RDM before 41. I'm sorry, but it's just not balanced. Everyone's got abilities, true--but all things totalled up--the amount of virtual damage done by enfeebles against what could have been done by say, another blm in that spot....It's is an utterly ungrounded and ill-thought-out assumption to think that it all adds up to be equal. Do the math, people. And I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt--it's not you as a person, it's just that Squeenix didn't design some sort of mythical perfectly-balanced game.

But my thoughts on what the role of an RDM is aside That wasn't really my point, I just got drawn in by a lot of people yelling stuff like "you are oh so wrong!!" without actually saying anything; making it pretty clear that it's just an emotional 'i'm so hurt you could say that about my class' v_v response--People just latched on to that part of my post because they are so emotional about it. Sorry to rub your fur the wrong way; and about whether the RDM is 'only' important for refresh, we can disagree and form our own parties our own way. I am well aware that such a discussion isn't productive--I am just responding to people posting and posting with nothing to say but how hurt their feelings are.

I will however reiterate what my point was in the first place--and preferably to a less kneejerk emotional response.

"for the first few fights it's normal that people will talk to each other and make sure that everyone is prepared to do their job effectively. Nearly every class has a special ability or two that the party has an interest in making sure they use--and the party has a right to make sure that that player knows that they are expected to use it. Anyone who is so terribly offended and throws a fit at a gentle prodding as the party gets started is too highly strung to be a good party member.

Yes, pestering constantly is a bad thing. After a couple of hours and people still don't get that there is a casting time and mana cost involved--that's annoying, I'm with you there. But you can expect (and in my opinion have an obligation to accept gracefully) being prodded for your abilities when you are with a new group."



Edited, Fri Jun 18 20:26:47 2004 by personperson
#35 Jun 18 2004 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
Yes, Refresh gives 150mp, at the cost of the RDM's 40.
#36 Jun 18 2004 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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6,858 posts
Silento wrote:
Yes, Refresh gives 150mp, at the cost of the RDM's 40.


That's what I thought, I think in the first post it says something about 120 MP.
#37 Jun 18 2004 at 7:29 PM Rating: Default


Nice, nice.

Honestly, when I'm ASKED to refresh someone. I never do.

Nope, I know enough about RDM that at this point it's obvious who needs it.

So, usually if someone isn't asking for a refresh and is in that list. I give him/her a lot of attention.

If I get asked too, which usually goes something like, "Refresh plz" **** that. no

Go buy some juice. I hate being asked
But, those who are patient enough to not ask me I make sure they're always good to go with MP.

#38 Jun 18 2004 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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909 posts

Does anyone else get jitters when you hit the "refresh" button in Internet explorer?

Ooooh, that feels good. I think I will click it again. =P
#39 Jun 18 2004 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,463 posts
Quote:
just got drawn in by a lot of people yelling stuff like "you are oh so wrong!!" without actually saying anything; making it pretty clear that it's just an emotional 'i'm so hurt you could say that about my class'

Before you start pointing fingers, you might want to realize at whom you're pointing them. I do not play Red Mage. I took it to level 17, and that's been enough for me. I still, however, think it's asanine to argue that - allow me to quote you exactly:
Quote:
A RDMs job is to refresh. period.

Do you deny saying this? Did someone hack your account and post this and frame you? No?

Right. So, that's what you said. It's all well and good that you're trying to back-pedal now, but don't try to assign blame to other people for calling you out where you were wrong. We aren't the ones who made an ill-advised statement about Red Mages; you are.

I don't deny that Refresh may well be the most useful spell RDMs get, but to say that is - again, referring back to exactly what you said - all that their job entails implies only that you have misunderstood what exactly a RDM does. I'm sure in the self-centered version of FFXI where it's all about you-you-you, a RDM is only necessary to keep Refresh on you-you-you. But this is a game where people party together. The DRK might appreciate having Dia so he can hit the monster a little harder. The PLD might appreciate Paralyze so he's not getting pummeled quite so fast.

See what people are driving at? You made an inaccurate, unfounded statement about what RDM's job is "period." Now, rather than admitting it was inaccurate, you're assigning blame to other people? Hi. Welcome to the world of Your Incorrect Assumptions Are Not My Fault.
#40 Jun 18 2004 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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608 posts
Quote:
You made an inaccurate, unfounded statement about what RDM's job is "period."


well said ^^
#41 Jun 18 2004 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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332 posts
I refresh blm's all the time. I love those MB's for 900+ dmg.

Funny thing is I dont get BLM's asking for refresh repeatdly. They ask "hey can you get me in there when you can" ?

I always oblidge as often as possible. I dont mind the <call>'s for refresh.

But lets face it - everyone expects alot of the rdm's.

I quite frankly wish Refresh is all i had to worry bout - but then that never happens.

Guess I have been fortunate with lots of good parties and lots of polite players and seldom overly demanding palyers.

We all seem to do just fine - save the occasional one.


send /Tell Draconian
#42 Jun 18 2004 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
*sigh*

I'm not saying I was wrong. I believe what I believe about what a RDM should do. If I'm lvling below 41, I still won't invite one if there are others available. Plain and simple, this is my style. I was simply trying to stop the flamy thing that seems to have sprung up here.

I said "We can agree to disagree"--this subject makes people scream and shout and whine all with terribly hurt feelings.

I agree that we can disagree. I reiterate my point--which I've pasted in twice now (about taking party requests gracefully). If you wish to continue shouting about how hurt your are and how your opinion of a RDM's job is better than mine and how I'm wrong. one...well go ahead ^^.

You might do better with some facts though; :p By all means, if you've got facts about why an enfeeble is actually better for the party than a refresh, please do tell. Do tell, my dear, what a RDM does that's better than refresh. Let's hear it.

So far all you've done is shout. And as that's all people seem to be able to do, my point with my last post was to redirect your attention to the part of my post which was not so inflamatory. :p Peace ^^
#43 Jun 18 2004 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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385 posts
Oh lord, if you REALLY believe an RDM's only job is to Refresh then you haven't even looked in the dynamics of the game and what an RDM is really all about. Even Square called RDM's the "Jack of all Trades" as in, we fill the holes where needed. No BLM in the party, guess who's doing the MB, the WHM is low on MP guess who's filling in for the MP loss. Oooh looky, I've also got the highest enfeeble count, but that's something to out and out ignore because it's my JOB to Refresh and Refresh only.

You know, I think you're forgetting one little spell that comes before 41, it's called Dispel. Only Bard's get something similar. RDM's are constantly working, doing this and doing that, Refresh is good, but not crucial to the party as say, Cure III is or Provoke. It's merely something to lessen downtime. Hell, we don't even have to cast it but we do since it saves everyone time, but at the same time we're doing a lot more. You level an RDM past 41, Personperson, and tell me how easy it is. Once you get Refresh you're doing a lot.

Sorry for this semi rant.
#44 Jun 18 2004 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,249 posts
Quote:
They are minor enfeeblers and a BLM or WHM can replace them...


Right now it would only make me happy to say, Sir Personperson, you are an assmaster, I would like to point something out, a RDM's enfeebling score is MUCH higher then a BLM or a WHM.(Infact,correct me if Im wrong, but a RDM has a A+ in enfeebling, whilst his special mage breathern are at a C)
Im pre-41, but the thing is that if I don't enfeeble the mob, then I get yelled at like a red-headed stepchild. Just for the simple fact that my Enfeebs are going to stick alot better then yours, if you and I at matched lvls, were to cast the same enfeebs(for sake of simplicity, we'll go with 3 mnd enfeebs, paralyze, slow, and silence), if you cast the same spell about 3 times, and on the final one it stuck, I could probally cast it 2 times and get it to stick, and considering that MP wasted on enfeebs is more that could go to cures, I win.

I bet that of all the people that I've partied with, no one will complain about my use of enfeebs, lets take it, the DD love Dia because that makes their hits strike harder, the Wars/Plds and the WHM's love Bio because it makes them take less dmg and the WHM expends less MP to heal them, this makes a fast, and happy party.

But to say that a RDM's job is ONLY refresh, that constitutes a swift kick in the crotch or the chest, depending on your gender.
Don't get me wrong,(yes Im going to sound like a broken record here), refresh, even on paper, sounds like an awesome and truly beautiful ability, but to say that Refresh is the only thing Im going to be good for post-41, and that refresh is all Im worth, and that I can suck so bad It makes a ***** want to take lessons, but I keep up a refresh cycle that works parties will invite me. That just makes me want to quit the job right there.

Everyone knows that their are jobs that are only good for one thing, i.e the paladin is no dmg dealer by any means, so essentially they are only good for tanking, Thfs are only good at dealing dmg because of SATA(on a side note, is this also refered to as Fuidama?) ect ect, not worth listing all of them.
But a RDM is a mix of everything and anything, with blink/stoneskin/phalanx we could, if **** hit the fan, tank for a couple turns, we melee, so thats adding how much ever minor dmg, but dmg is dmg, so whose complaining?We have one of the, if not the highest, score in buffing, we are the best Debuffers, no fighting that we are only second rate nukers, but I dont think anybody is going to ***** if we burst of a SC and it tacks on more dmg. I know in my parties that if I hit a mob for an extra 50-70 dmg after bursting of a SC, I dont get "omg you n00b, y did u nuke? Rdm dont nuke, blms do uber n00b", Infact I dont get anything at all, but then again Im operating in the background, and just hearing the "That went fast" or "Good job guys. /clap"
is satisfaction enough.

I guess after all of this rant, I can only say that if Im only going to be good for Refresh, then the whm are only going to be good for healing, because who invites a WHM for nuking or debuffing, I can sure as hell say that no one is EVER going to invite a WHM and encourage them to melee. If my only good spell is Refresh, then your only good spell is Cure II, I dont give a rough **** if you can take off one of my status ailments or pump me up, hell I can do that myself, we get buffers the same lvl you do, you just get the -ra form of it. As long as Im still alive at the end of the fight.

Now I'd like to excuse myself for being an *******, Im not normally like this, but your writing style REALLY ticked me off.
/em watch's karma go down that black hole.
#45 Jun 18 2004 at 9:14 PM Rating: Good
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235 posts
Crawler's Nest. Crawlers with Cocoon and Beetles with Rhino Guard. Both are Defense Boost effects the likes of which you will never have seen before that level.

You have a few choices:

o Your WHM spams Dia/Dia II and hope that you can get enough hits in to kill the mob before it slaughters your party;

o You get your BLM to nuke the holy bejeebus out of it and hope that it dies before he runs our of mana and/or it slaughters your party;

o You keep whiffing away at the mob, even weapon skills missing, fuidama and renkei failing left and right, before it slaughters your party;

o You get your bard to sing Magic Finale or your redmage to cast Dispel.

Dispel can only be cast by redmages. In Crawler's Nest, you don't have to pick up a redmage, of course. A bard should do just as well for getting rid of Cocoon. However, when I was there, redmages who did their jobs -- enfeebling, which includes Dispel -- were looked upon quite favorably.
#46 Jun 18 2004 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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454 posts
Quote:

as for black mages. i have only ever met one who did not go on a nuke spree the moment they got refresh. and the only one who did not joked about it because his main was a red. and those blacks casting 300+ mana spells are casting acient(sp) magic that should only be used for MBs. been alot of discussions about that in both the red and black forums and the overwelming opion is unless being used for MBs acient magic is a waste of mana. fun to cast, pretty effects and nice bragging rights since they are hard to get but almost useless in a PT


As for RDMs, I'm sure they arn't all bad, even if they almost never have a fully leveled subjob and go nuke happy. I also wish they'd stop meleeing and rest some of that mana back so that we wouldn't have to wait on them. Ruins the chains you know. And why don't they magic burst? They seem to be nuking away until that skillchain starts, but then they just stop for some reason, and continue back afterward.

But I'm sure there are good Red Mages out there.

Ironic isn't it?

EDIT: Perhaps that was a bit harsh, but I'm only trying to make a point. I have a 19 RDM.

Edited, Fri Jun 18 22:32:25 2004 by ThirdWizard
#47 Jun 18 2004 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
Silent But Deadly
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19,999 posts
ViciousMink wrote:
clipped stuff about beetles
Dispel can only be cast by redmages. In Crawler's Nest, you don't have to pick up a redmage, of course. A bard should do just as well for getting rid of Cocoon. However, when I was there, redmages who did their jobs -- enfeebling, which includes Dispel -- were looked upon quite favorably.


[sarcasm]

Yeah, red mages aren't supposed to just cast Refresh.

They're only supposed to cast Refresh and Dispel. :-)

[/sarcasm]
____________________________
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#48 Jun 18 2004 at 11:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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235 posts
MDenham wrote:

[sarcasm]

Yeah, red mages aren't supposed to just cast Refresh.

They're only supposed to cast Refresh and Dispel. :-)

[/sarcasm]

"Our greatest weapon is Refresh... and Dispel. Our TWO greatest weapons are Refresh and Dispel... and Gravity. Nono, our THREE greatest weapons...!"
#49 Jun 19 2004 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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1,046 posts
Lady Noriko,

Might I also add that it's a good idea for RDM to discuss this with party right when they join? That way the misconceptions are out of the way.

I played RDM up until 50 and quit then. From 41 to 50, I made sure that every MP in the party had refresh going at all times (except the DRK and occasional melee/mage combo, they got one every 3-4 fights or when needed).

I also explained to each party I joined that I would attempt to keep refresh going at all times, and that if their refresh wore off that I already knew about it and would get to it in due time. I had one person ask "Refresh Please" from 41 to 50, and they learned very quickly not to ask. ;)

#50 Jun 19 2004 at 12:02 AM Rating: Excellent
Thief's Knife
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15,054 posts
A word to all DRK's that want refresh. If you want the RDM to always refresh you, get Drain MND and use it, use it as often as you can. Trust me, the RDM will keep you refreshed if you do this.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#51 Jun 19 2004 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
I agree with everything you said besides this:

Quote:
if you are not 100 mana points under your maxed you do not need it yet


As a whm, I may not be under 100 from max at soem given time - but 2 cures later I will be and would have much rather been regening during that time and during the cures.
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