Forgive me, I only skimmed over the last few posts. However, I am appalled at some things that have come up here:
Quote:
Why exactly do you think that yourself (a RDM) has higher priority than the healer? WHM mana is the party's life; that's it, no question; whm is out of mana then everyone dies--a WHM gets low on mana and everyone has to wait between battles.
Personperson, there is a really simple reason: RDM is the only one with Refresh. If the RDM is out of MP, then NO ONE can get Refresh. Further, a WHM is not the be-all end-all of the party. Last I checked, RDM have cure spells as well. Heck, some people even use RDMs as a main healer. I have been able to keep a party going if the WHM is oomp, or even dead, to survive a fight. To say that if the WHM dies then everyone dies when you have someone else that can heal is a fallacy.
Quote:
A RDMs job is to refresh. period. Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you--ever noticed why no one went out of their way to find a RDM until after 41?
/sigh... So much to address, so little time. I will not be content to simply reiterate everyone's statements, but will go out of my way to find whatever facts I can. Okay, first, if RDM is so mediocre pre-41, then how is it that servers have any RDM post 41 at all? If your answer is "there was no one else to invite" then I simply have to say in response that I never waited to long for an invite pre-41, even with other classes available. Until the early 30s, RDM provides in significant amounts of melee damage (not great, but far from negligible) and provides enfeebles and backup heals in one neat package. And by the time their melee tapers off, what happens? They get Dispel! I have been sought out explicitly in the C. Nest for that reason alone.
Quote:
They are minor enfeeblers and a BLM or WHM can replace them--alternatively you'd do better with another class that could do some damage. RMD is a weak class UNTIL they get refresh--which is an *awesome* spell and makes a RDM awesome and worth waiting for.
You seem to be stuck in a mindset of lower levels, despite being far past them. Let's have a looksie here... RDM enfeebling is A+. WHM have a C in this skill, and BLM have a C+. Now, at lower levels, these numbers aren't too different. Even at 50, the difference is not astronomical, but still enough to make a difference. At 50, a RDM is capped at 153, with BLM and WHM both capped at 142. However, once you start going up from there, things change quicky. Let's take it to the top, 75. A RDM will have 276, a BLM will have 230, and a WHM will have 225. At my level (51) I am already having some trouble getting spells to stick on IT++ (and yes, my enfeebling is capped). I even offered to let the WHM in my party take an enfeeble to up her skill, but she told me to just cast it because she could never get it to stick. If a RDM can have trouble sticking things, what makes you think that a BLM or a WHM have a snowball's chance in h*ll?
Further, we are provided with a rather interesting parallel... RDM Enfeebling is A+, Elemental is C+. BLM Elemental is A+, Enfeebling is C+. Now, if you are saying a BLM can enfeeble as well as a RDM, then it stands to reason that a RDM can Nuke as well as a BLM (given the same spell, since RDM don't have access to all BLM nukes). If a BLM can Enfeeble as well as a RDM, but a RDM can't nuke as well as a BLM, then we'd might as well throw the skill system out the window because it obviously has no bearing on anything. Obviously, this is ridiculous; why do WARs use G. Axe and Axe, DRKs use Scythe and G. Sword, etc..? SKILL CAPS. Ask any melee OR mage and they will tell you how much they matter, if you for some reason do not realize this yourself.
Well, it seems I have provided sufficient evidence that RDMs are the best enfeeblers by FAR, but this isn't much benefit if enfeebles don't do anything, right? Now for my next task: proving enfeebles are worthwhile.
This is hard to "prove" beyond simple common sense. I will try to explain this as clearly as possible: Paralyze costs 6MP. When paralyzed, a monster's action may be blocked. If a monster is effected by paralysis only ONCE, then that is using 6 MP to replace the heal for however much damage the monster's attack would have done. Slow. Reduce enemy attack speed, so they get in less attacks. Do I really need to explain the math on this? Prevent several attacks, save a WHOLE LOT of MP from healing. Silence. This is a pain even for a RDM to stick on many monsters. But without it, what happens when a Skeleton starts casting some nasty magic? Would you rather prevent it with silence, or deal with the expensive heal (or raise). Dispel. We can even look at the C. Nest for this. Forgive me for not providing exact numbers, but I know of no place to get how much Cacoon reduces damage by. But I can say this: I was soloing Crawlers the other day. When they used Cacoon, I noticed my base sword damage drop from ~40 to ~10. And this was on an EASY PREY. I can only imagine what an IT++'s Cacoon would do. I could go on, but I think this is enough.
Quote:
You might do better with some facts though; :p By all means, if you've got facts about why an enfeeble is actually better for the party than a refresh, please do tell. Do tell, my dear, what a RDM does that's better than refresh. Let's hear it.
I should think that by this time, I have provided sufficient facts to convince most people that enfeebling is a worthwhile job in and of itself. Refresh alone will give you some more MP. But what you are neglecting are the INDIRECT MP savings. Paralyze can indirectly save 100+ MP for the WHM (as per the example above). Dispelling a Cocoon can end the battle a LOT faster, thus necessitating less MP usage.
The obvious solution is to do BOTH. Refresh and Enfeeble. I will usually Refresh, use 2 enfeebles (waiting on Refresh timer), Refresh, repeat. However, very rarely do these Refresh make the difference between life and death. In the first battle of a chain, rarely if ever is anyone left with less than 150MP (same amount Refresh gives back), which means that they could have pulled through WITHOUT it. Refresh's main use is to reduce downtime. Enfeebles are both to reduce downtime AND to enhance survivability.
A RDM's job can be described thusly post 41: Make the party run as smoothly and efficiently as possible. That means making the enemy as weak as possible, and making the party as strong as possible. RDM's are NOT Refresh slaves. RDM's are NOT only Enfeeblers (post 41). Any that are only one or the other are only an incomplete RDM. Refresh makes things go faster and more smoothly. But if you think for one gosh darn minute enfeebling isn't AT LEAST as beneficial in the long run, then you have no idea what you are missing.
Quote:
Sorry to rub your fur the wrong way; and about whether the RDM is 'only' important for refresh, we can disagree and form our own parties our own way. I am well aware that such a discussion isn't productive--I am just responding to people posting and posting with nothing to say but how hurt their feelings are.
Yes, I suppose we can agree to disagree, Personperson. However, that doesn't mean that I won't do my utmost to counter information/opinions that fly in the face of 51 levels of actually playing RDM and countless others partying with them. You are posting on an open forum. This forum was intending for Refresh ettiquette. Essentially, many people that read this forum are coming here to LEARN. If someone reads your post, they may believe what you say and form opinions based on that. I feel obligated to do my best to prevent this from happening when the information in question is incorrect. I have not responded with simple hurt feelings. I have backed up my claims with evidence and personal experience. Far more evidence than you ever used, anyway. Who ever said women weren't logical? =P
I have responded to your challenge, and believe myself to have met it. I must, however, wonder how many people will get to this post, with how long the thread is.
Oh, and to stay true to the original post.... yes, I HATE it when people spam "Refresh plz," especially like the BLM I did BCNM 40 with, asking me for it before the battle, when I had 60 MP left from individually buffing everyone, and was sitting to regen my own MP, while he was missing a mere 50. Most often, if someone asks me for Refresh, I started casting it before it comes up in party chat. Refresh is a priority for me, but if I am in the middle of another spell, do not expect me to stop casting it just so I can hit you with Refresh. Also, if a Beetle just used Rhino Guard, the only way you get Refresh before I Dispel it is if you are either myself or the PLD, or a WHM OOMP.
EDIT: Clarified who I was quoting.
Edited, Sat Jun 19 04:51:40 2004 by RydiaJademist