Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow

>Why exactly do you think that yourself (a RDM) has higher priority than the healer?

Simple, the RDM can heal too, and has the worst MP resting regen of the mages. Add to this we also have the least time to rest in party typically. Oh, and finally, refresh needs MP, and if I waste my last 40 mp on the white mage, we stop cold since the PLD doesn't have refresh, nor do I, nor does anyone else until I rest up. Whereas if the whm runs dry, he can rest and I can cover healing, and keep people refreshed too, allowing his superior MP regen rate to get him up and going faster.


>WHM mana is the party's life;

Not in any of my parties it isn't. WHM's are there for efficiency, not for "my god, we can't live without him".

>RDM or PLD run out of mana and everything is OK

If PLD runs out of MP, quite often hate turns to the next biggest hate person, which is guess who, the whm who soon after dies since the PLD can't regain hate, and the RDM has no magic to cure him.

>--a bit slower, but not a terrible tragedy. WHM also use much more mana much faster than anyone else.

Actually, BLMs tend to blow the most, followed by RDM/WHM depending on party (I know I blow more than the whms typically).

> I chalk this up to selfishness--Just the idea that because the RDM has the spell, he should cast it on himself first. I'm a WHM and if I die, then everyone dies--and still I will almost always heal the mele people first. You've got to put aside your own self-interest for the good of the whole.

I'm sorry, but you're running on the very false assumption that whm is invaluable. You're not. WHM are very efficient curers, and they too in the high lvls are there to add to the efficiency of the party. However, the party will most often not even stop if the whm runs out of mp as long as rdm is 50% or so.

Also, don't panic. The top 3 in the priority list almost always get the spell. The Reason RDM is at the top is we always need it. We are almost never at max MP. We are guaranteed to burn MP in large amounts. We get the least time to rest most often, and even when we do, we get the least effect of the mage types from it. PLD is next on the list because he is the tank. If he loses aggro, things can easily go very bad, very fast. Even if they don't, everyone else must limit themselves/burn more MP to keep the situation stable, making the party less efficient.

>Also, I think your reasoning is a bit off on when you think refresh is needed. It may eventually restore 120 mana, but this takes time, silly. Especially on a WHM who is casting *constantly*, refresh should always be on,

Almost right, but not quite. If you're at 100%, casting refresh now is a waste of the RDM's MP. If you are getting 30 MP a tick while resting, and you're only 30 from your max, then again, refresh is wasted on you. You will get it, but when you need it, not when it's effect is wasted.

>A RDMs job is to refresh. period.

You are *bleep*, period.

The problem with refresh only rdms is the are often not enfeebling properly. The result is alot more downtime than refresh would ever safe.



You just reminded me of a drk I had with me once.
His joy was to demand more refresh than the pld and whm.
We were killing anticans, and his misfortune was to tap a refresh macro just as I saw the antican get unsilenced and turn towards him.
The devil got in me, and I gave him his refresh ;)

I never knew the -defence from two snipers rings could cause tornado to do so much damage ._.;;

Edited, Sun Jun 20 07:57:07 2004 by MaxCaitsith

"The problem with refresh only rdms is the are often not enfeebling properly. The result is alot more downtime than refresh would ever safe."

Right, because the one or two times Paralyze actually works is going to save the world but yes, RDM's need to enfeeble. Don't leave it to the WHM's or the BLM's, with the right equipment at level 74 your skill will be at around 300 while the other mages are 60-80points behind you. I'm sorry but thats like sending a Dragoon into battle withe 1hr sword, you just don't let things like that happen.


Edited, Sun Jun 20 07:59:37 2004 by Governor

Still has nothing to do with defense, its other stats.

RDM is usually about the golden three "Slow Paralyze Gravity" Silence if needed and if someone REALLLLY wants me to throw out dia/bio I will. The elemental debuffs, Rasp Frost etc.. I leave that crap to the BLM, they're better at it. Paralyze was just an example.... .... .... ... .. .

Edited, Sun Jun 20 08:03:37 2004 by Governor

Unless of course there is a well equipped RNG in the party.

So you never ask for Erase from the WHM when a mob debuffs you because debuffs hardly have any effect right?

Heh, that's what I thought...


Paralyze on average stops around 20% of the mob's attacks assuming the RDM has his enfeebling skill capped (how well it works depends on his enfeeble skill) Just ask any ninja blink tank if a RDM's debuffs are "useless", Slow and Paralyze are a ninja's best friends.





Edited, Sun Jun 20 08:42:26 2004 by Lobivopis

Let's all face it people. Red Mages are by no means uber.
They cannot do uber damage, like a ranger. They have no uber healing powers, like a white mage. They have no tanking power, like a Paladin. All they do have is refresh & dispel and some enfeebles. That is the reason I got so damn bored of playing Red Mage. They don't have a role to fill, therefore they get no respect, therefore, I dislike playing it.
That's why there are so many touchy Red Mages out there, cos they don't like their job. So if a Red Mage starts shouting at you for asking for Refresh, now you know why!

Edited, Sun Jun 20 09:33:51 2004 by Strifeman

My god, be seriuos please... you cannot SPAM freeze, you cannot SPAM ancient magic period, at any level, you simply don't have enough MP for more then 2 (assuming you cast nothing but ancient magic - no debuffs, no nothing). Yet, If an finishing an Sc with Freeze burst I EXPECT an RDM to refresh me. If I am not getting after lets say 3rd burst I will ask him (in private mind you) what is going on. If I still not geting it I will have to ask it publically.
What you are describing is not playing safe - it is palying unefficient. With RDM that knows what he does (not the original poster, sorry, no offense) you can do freeze burst every other fight. Paladin will not have to keep hate - you obviously have to time this burst right. Noobody can help you but yourself, if you want to fight an enemy 6-7 minutes instead of 2-3 sure this is your choice, not mine. As I said, please don't refresh me, Warp II is purelly supportive spell ans is a matter of convenience ^^

Skeeve BLM52/WHM27, Diabolos

huh? your tank wont pull,seems funny since 90% or more of the time a tank wont be pulling at all the other 10% usualy means your useing a ninja tank. yet plds can pull and do it quite well without being an extra MP burn on the mages,but this is NOT recomended in most circumstances.

I whole heartedly agree that a blm should be refreshed simply to make fast chaining more efficient and when a team is using the big bombs like tornado, flood...etc..for SC MB's.

even with refresh on all the mp users take a look at who has the least mp at fights end in a normal fight:

1)pld (is expected to use all his resorces to keep hate)
they also start with least.

2)blm (uses much more MP per spell and they are using it all throughout the fight)


3)whm (is expected to conserve mp for emergency healing and to continue chains many actualy get hostile to whm's who use too much in an early fight)

when refreshing is posible in higher levels when you need 20-30-40k exp for your next level any down time makes leveling take forever at level 40ish so what if you have some downtime between fights 10-12k exp still goes fast.
alot of the rdm's posts say 3-5seconds before your refresh is renewed is no biggy i agree but 30 seconds on the tank during a fight with any mob who's special can do 300-500+ damage can create a mess all of a sudden you dont want your whm ever casting cure4 especialy if the tank is low on mp,thats exactly why plds get all the cures as well,this is where slow or gravity on the mob and haste on the tank come in reduces interuptions by mobs who have varying attack times toramas are a good example they can attack with no previous motion altho 90% of the time they do give away the attack there are swipes with none.

keep your paladin refreshed early even if they are full mp its not a waste in fast chaining runs the next mob is comming.
they should rarely ever need to kneel except maybe after that one IT+++ who need extra efort and 2 tics can make the difference between starting with some or none.

my problem with this thread is simple as a paladin how stupid would you think me of posting :

Why as a pld should i always be told by my partys to take all the damage?

i have mp i can cast back up cures i have a weapon i can do weapon chains why must i be told to build hate and stand getting hit into red at times by everyone?

answer: its part of the job and so is keeping people refreshed for rdm's

we all get that annoying party member who emotes stupid things:"blah blah so and so is humping blah blah blah"

or the winner who examins everyones equipment and makes all sorts of comments on how you should be equiped having never played your job,but read about it somewhere.

theres also the type who want to be the lead of every party they join regardless of being added late in a partys run these people bark orders to everyone and its these people most likely anoying the rdm's with "i need refresh"constantly. dont take it personaly.

I *expect* to get refreshed as much as people in my party *expect* me to be skillchaining. If i dont get refreshed after asking, im simply stopping skillchaining. And i'm not casting either, so basically i'm a gimped Dragoon. When they ask themselves what the problem is and why i won't collaborate, i point the Red Mage. At that point, they can either make corrections or boot me out, because i wouldn't want to be a stripped down version of other melee classes just because the mage can't take 15 seconds to toss me a well-needed refresh for my oh so low 200MP.

That said, i have not seen this problem very often to be honest. In all my parties, it has only happened once or twice and both times the RDM kind of said "yeah youre right" and things went smooth from there. Usually, RDMs are very aware people who are focused on what's happening, and are quick to react.

It's bad enough i'm at the freaking bottom of the invite list for parties right down there with other MNK/DRGs, i don't have not to be on the refresh list.

The only reason a rdm is popular in partys is for refresh and dispel, enfeebs are a nice bonus, but rdm main role should be making sure everyone is refreshed and the mobs kept dispelled, thats the only reason i invite a rdm to my PT's.



Most rdms have the enfeebs on first, but its a very small % of the overall fight time, casting 3 spells (paralyze, gravity and slow) doesnt take any time at all, for the remaining 95% of the fight rdm's should be curing and refreshing, and nuking on MB's.



I'm a 71 blm and i would be very annoyed if i wasnt kept refreshed at every possible time. Any BLM that goes on a nuke fest isnt doing a very good job (kinda like a rdm who wont keep mages refreshed at all times). With a spell such as refresh, an extra 120mp can speed up downtime during pt's, and you try to get every extra edge you can as it all adds up. I've yet to PT with a rdm at my level who doesnt try to keep every mage refreshed at all times, but if i found one they wouldnt be in my PT very long.

Edited, Mon Jun 21 00:26:34 2004 by Eskeran

why o why do people think playing rdm is so easy.... cmon think bout it, we need to cast very useful enfeebling spells and keep people refreshed.
The way i do it is i refresh myself first then start paralyzing and slowing so the paly can heal himself better. then i refresh the paly and i start to cast frost(agi down) and choke(vit down) so the party can hit more. Then i refresh the whm and start meleeing, if the pt has a hard time hitting it, then i casst gravity. i refresh the blm next and start backup healing and meleeing.

once i get to 48, im gonna also have to fit haste in my cycle and plz plzzzz people dont ask for refresh when u've barely used any mp, paly's can ask (fine with me). The purpose of enfeebling (for all u skeptical people) is to help out ALOT in battle. once i have paralyze, slow, frost, and choke, then its easy for the party to attack it and the paly's have more time to cast cure spells to keep hate, which means blm can nuke a bit more and not get hate. I dont usually worry about dia2 because the whm is always casting it even after my macro goes off.

my last point is to all the whm who think there so important to get refresh first. First off, you have enough mp and you shouldn't waste it so much, second, if the RDM doesnt have mp, then no enfeebles, no backup healing, and especially no REFRESH. I sometimes convert but its a bit tough with the hornflys in Crawlers Nest. Even if i cast stoneskin, they usually rip through it with double curse spheres and i dont want to risk delaying the party just for raise effects to wear off.

Russel, VERY well put! I agree with you 100%.

It's a shame you aren't on Fairy. We have a static party of 5 rotating the 6th spot till we find someone that fits well (whm, rdm, pld, drg, and drk) RARELY will I add a BLM as 6th even tho we could greatly benefit from one. I've yet to find a BLM that doesn't spam nukes then yell at a tank for not holding hate. It'd be nice for once to have a BLM in party who knows the job. Care to switch servers? :P