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- Refresh etiquette....please read <_>
Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow
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If you don't party with black mages that often I'll forgive you for not putting them on your refresh list, but you will notice that at levels 50+, a black mage does about 50% of the damage to enemies throughout a battle except for skillchains. Not refreshing them is just going to make them very angry and when they have to spend 15k per stack of Hobgoblin Chocolates on top of a Dark Staff you're going to have a black mage that may have nukes resisted due to not having int bonuses from a pies.
Personally if a Red Mage doesn't have me high on their priority list, they're gone. I know my role in the party, I do more damage than anyone else that I party with at level 68, and if you want to gimp exp in a party because you can't admit that the Black Mage needs refresh, then I'd rather not have you in my group.
I'm lucky in regards that my girlfriend parties with me and is a White Mage, so we build a party around the two of us. If you don't like how the party is set up or how exp is rolling in because you won't refresh people, then you can go sit LFG for a couple hours while we grab another person and keep up our chain 5.
I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone, but you seriously need to reconsider how you act all high and mighty about who you will and will not refresh. To me, this post sounds exactly like a lower level White Mage saying that they don't need up to date spells/gear because there aren't many of them around so people just have to deal with what is available. Please don't make this a trend for high level Red Mages as well.
And you seriously need to reconsider your parties. You're doing most of the damage? You had better replace your melee people then, because they are absolutely terrible if you're doing all the damage.
Personally if a Red Mage doesn't have me high on their priority list, they're gone. I know my role in the party, I do more damage than anyone else that I party with at level 68, and if you want to gimp exp in a party because you can't admit that the Black Mage needs refresh, then I'd rather not have you in my group.
I'm lucky in regards that my girlfriend parties with me and is a White Mage, so we build a party around the two of us. If you don't like how the party is set up or how exp is rolling in because you won't refresh people, then you can go sit LFG for a couple hours while we grab another person and keep up our chain 5.
I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone, but you seriously need to reconsider how you act all high and mighty about who you will and will not refresh. To me, this post sounds exactly like a lower level White Mage saying that they don't need up to date spells/gear because there aren't many of them around so people just have to deal with what is available. Please don't make this a trend for high level Red Mages as well.
And you seriously need to reconsider your parties. You're doing most of the damage? You had better replace your melee people then, because they are absolutely terrible if you're doing all the damage.
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I'm probably biased due to leveling BLM higher than any other job currently, but I agree with Mageling and the others that the BLM of the party needs Refresh if there's a RDM to cast it.
Not only does the BLM do most of the damage in parties like Mageling stated, but the BLM simply uses more MP to cast spells consistently. I've only played WHM up 38 levels, but I can tell you that while I was doing this, the one left at the end of the battle with 20% MP was the BLM, while I was left with a good 40% after everyone was healed to full. Not only that, I've seen Paladins work miracles regarding how much MP a WHM needs to spend - I was once in a party where a Paladin took so little damage and drank juices like he was made of money, and I had to resort to nuking with Divine magic just to do something. But the BLM still needed MP, because the monsters still needed to be killed. Yes, healing the party is extremely important, but it's one Hell of a lot cheaper for the WHM to do so than for the BLM to defeat your foes.
Not only does the BLM do most of the damage in parties like Mageling stated, but the BLM simply uses more MP to cast spells consistently. I've only played WHM up 38 levels, but I can tell you that while I was doing this, the one left at the end of the battle with 20% MP was the BLM, while I was left with a good 40% after everyone was healed to full. Not only that, I've seen Paladins work miracles regarding how much MP a WHM needs to spend - I was once in a party where a Paladin took so little damage and drank juices like he was made of money, and I had to resort to nuking with Divine magic just to do something. But the BLM still needed MP, because the monsters still needed to be killed. Yes, healing the party is extremely important, but it's one Hell of a lot cheaper for the WHM to do so than for the BLM to defeat your foes.
If you're doing most of the damage, get a new party. Your melee are terrible on equipment and you're over nuking. First of all, if you're nuking heavily in the start of the EXP chain, you're a complete moron in the first place, thus proving you don't need mana.
Sorry, but time and time again -- BLM DO NOT NEED REFRESH. You simply do not need it, PERIOD. You can sit down and recover some mana. And like I said, if you're blowing MP at the start of the EXP chain, I sure as hell wouldn't give you Refresh either.
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Wrong. So wrong.
I don't even like the Red Mages that much, but I think you're wrong. A Red Mage's job is to refresh, debuff, back-up cure, buff when necessary, and nuke lightly (for magic bursts mostly).
Much like people who say a Bard's job is to cast Ballad and that's it, this statement is wholly inaccurate and shows that you have absolutely no clue what that class really does. Yes, Refresh is a huge - arguably the most important - part of the RDM's job, but there's a lot more going on besides just /ma "Refresh" <t> - just like there's a lot more going on for WHMs than just /ma "Cure II" <t>, or PLDs /ja "Provoke" <bt>.
I don't even like the Red Mages that much, but I think you're wrong. A Red Mage's job is to refresh, debuff, back-up cure, buff when necessary, and nuke lightly (for magic bursts mostly).
Much like people who say a Bard's job is to cast Ballad and that's it, this statement is wholly inaccurate and shows that you have absolutely no clue what that class really does. Yes, Refresh is a huge - arguably the most important - part of the RDM's job, but there's a lot more going on besides just /ma "Refresh" <t> - just like there's a lot more going on for WHMs than just /ma "Cure II" <t>, or PLDs /ja "Provoke" <bt>.
Personperson, maybe if I spell it out for you then you'll understand it.
You.
Are.
A.
Moron.
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I'm glad you are not a Redmage in my party,obviously an idiot if you reckon Black Mages do not need Refresh.
~~~
Yes but that is really the only weapon Redmages use,kinda pathetic to only have a B in the main weapon you have available to you.
~~~
Yes but that is really the only weapon Redmages use,kinda pathetic to only have a B in the main weapon you have available to you.
And I'm glade we're on different servers, as you seem to be a "OMG I R TEH CHAIN NUKER?!??!" Black Mages do not need Refresh. Period and end of discussion. You can sit on your *** and regen some MP a hell of a lot faster. Aside from the elemental enfeebles, there's nothing you do besides nuke. Sit the hell down and recover some mana. Amazing how that works, no?
You're almost as ignorant as Personperson, so let me "Dispel" this rumor for you -- they also have a B class in Dagger. Using an Enseries spell with a slightly below level dagger will cause it to hit quickly, for 0 damage. Sounds crappy, but there's a plus -- the monster doesn't get ANY TP in return for that hit, and the Enseries will start to do incredible damage as your Enhancing skill is increased.
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47rdm/22nin bismark I have a serious problem in parties that have 3-4 mages (including me) and all DEMANDING refresh. In my last party I was not only required to do this, but also debuff, nuke, melee AND back-up heal. After 4 mobs I told them to refresh their d@!mn selves and bounced. I'm never THAT desperate to be in a party. I always take care of the essentials (WHM,BLM or PALLY and myself) but not all of them. I'm not gonna rely on "convert" exactly every ten minutes to do all these jobs! I REFUSE!!!!!
That's because you're a moron. Get rid of the Ninja subjob and level a Black Mage subjob. You need all the INT you can get. Please join Personperson in the IDIOT corner.
Edited, Wed Jul 7 04:32:09 2004 by Russellius
***I don't know why, but AK decided to start ******** up around here on quotations****
Thank you.
This is the most important rule. Black Mages can't seem to understand this, and think it's someone else fault because they are too damn stupid to sit down and regen mana.
Typical attiude of a complete idiot. Ancient Magic is more trouble than it is worth, and beyond level 53 it's not even worth the cast time and mana cost. Freeze is about the only one you'll ever use, and it's pitiful at that. Sorry, but come up with a better arguement.
Warp II too mana costly for you? Guess what, I don't feel like putting Ballad on your stupid *** and the White Mage in the party doesn't feel like teleporting you around, since you're excess baggage. Get out, and walk back to Jeuno. {/kick}
Idiot. Please, quit this game, as you are obviously of low intelligence, and go join your brethren in WoW.
No, you can SIT YOUR *** DOWN after you cast Freeze and start to regen. No, you don't need it, and if you demand it then you're just another moron Black Mage. Please, go stand in their corner.
If you go on a nuke fest you're a moron. Please go join the other people in the corner. You can sit down and recover mana like a smart BLM. You don't need Refresh, and you shouldn't even be heavily nuking until near the end of the EXP chain (i.e. start to pay in on the nukes around halfway Number 3)
Mirrasi, as cool as it would be to change servers (Carbuncle is notorious for having the worst JP attitudes on the server. Today, Foodmonsters LS was whacking away at Adamantoise, when a Japanese alliance just started to train everything they could on them to kill off FM. It's sad, in that because they were Japanese players, they got off free because only a Japanese GM can handle Japanese players. BUT! They still survived and destroyed the Adamantoise, so props to them), I'd have to decline :) First of all, it would take me too long to level Red Mage and then level Black Mage to reach your level. Secondly, it would take too much money to try to get back to level 50, and *STILL* need to buy an Ice Staff, Dark Staff, and a bunch of INT equipment (as well as Moldavite Earring).
And since I won't post again just for one more quotation.....whoever said PLD>BLM>RDM is a moron. Please, go turn off your game because it's obviously beyond your brainpower.
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As a Whitemage I would expect one person to be in charge of my mana regeneration, that is me. Altana bless you if you cast regen on me, however, if you don't, I'll still use food and drinks and rest after battles. It seems that a good rule of thumb is to look out for #1.
~~~
Are all BLMs like that? Probably not, but the people that NEED refresh are PLD and WHM. It won't kill a BLM to rest a tick or so for some MP.
~~~
Are all BLMs like that? Probably not, but the people that NEED refresh are PLD and WHM. It won't kill a BLM to rest a tick or so for some MP.
Thank you.
This is the most important rule. Black Mages can't seem to understand this, and think it's someone else fault because they are too damn stupid to sit down and regen mana.
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Typical attitude of pre-50 RDM, that apparently never saw ancient magic and use and probably gonna tell me that ancient magic is not needed and should never be used. Well, fine don't refresh me.
But you know what, then Walk, ok. Warp II is too mana intensive to warp an RDM, besides most of them have warp from sub so they can just do it themselve, right?
Nevermind do what you want, I just hope I will never party with you
But you know what, then Walk, ok. Warp II is too mana intensive to warp an RDM, besides most of them have warp from sub so they can just do it themselve, right?
Nevermind do what you want, I just hope I will never party with you
Typical attiude of a complete idiot. Ancient Magic is more trouble than it is worth, and beyond level 53 it's not even worth the cast time and mana cost. Freeze is about the only one you'll ever use, and it's pitiful at that. Sorry, but come up with a better arguement.
Warp II too mana costly for you? Guess what, I don't feel like putting Ballad on your stupid *** and the White Mage in the party doesn't feel like teleporting you around, since you're excess baggage. Get out, and walk back to Jeuno. {/kick}
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et's all face it people. Red Mages are by no means uber.
They cannot do uber damage, like a ranger. They have no uber healing powers, like a white mage. They have no tanking power, like a Paladin. All they do have is refresh & dispel and some enfeebles. That is the reason I got so damn bored of playing Red Mage. They don't have a role to fill, therefore they get no respect, therefore, I dislike playing it.
That's why there are so many touchy Red Mages out there, cos they don't like their job. So if a Red Mage starts shouting at you for asking for Refresh, now you know why!
They cannot do uber damage, like a ranger. They have no uber healing powers, like a white mage. They have no tanking power, like a Paladin. All they do have is refresh & dispel and some enfeebles. That is the reason I got so damn bored of playing Red Mage. They don't have a role to fill, therefore they get no respect, therefore, I dislike playing it.
That's why there are so many touchy Red Mages out there, cos they don't like their job. So if a Red Mage starts shouting at you for asking for Refresh, now you know why!
Idiot. Please, quit this game, as you are obviously of low intelligence, and go join your brethren in WoW.
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My god, be seriuos please... you cannot SPAM freeze, you cannot SPAM ancient magic period, at any level, you simply don't have enough MP for more then 2 (assuming you cast nothing but ancient magic - no debuffs, no nothing). Yet, If an finishing an Sc with Freeze burst I EXPECT an RDM to refresh me. If I am not getting after lets say 3rd burst I will ask him (in private mind you) what is going on. If I still not geting it I will have to ask it publically.
What you are describing is not playing safe - it is palying unefficient. With RDM that knows what he does (not the original poster, sorry, no offense) you can do freeze burst every other fight. Paladin will not have to keep hate - you obviously have to time this burst right. Noobody can help you but yourself, if you want to fight an enemy 6-7 minutes instead of 2-3 sure this is your choice, not mine. As I said, please don't refresh me, Warp II is purelly supportive spell ans is a matter of convenience ^^
What you are describing is not playing safe - it is palying unefficient. With RDM that knows what he does (not the original poster, sorry, no offense) you can do freeze burst every other fight. Paladin will not have to keep hate - you obviously have to time this burst right. Noobody can help you but yourself, if you want to fight an enemy 6-7 minutes instead of 2-3 sure this is your choice, not mine. As I said, please don't refresh me, Warp II is purelly supportive spell ans is a matter of convenience ^^
No, you can SIT YOUR *** DOWN after you cast Freeze and start to regen. No, you don't need it, and if you demand it then you're just another moron Black Mage. Please, go stand in their corner.
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I'm a 71 blm and i would be very annoyed if i wasnt kept refreshed at every possible time. Any BLM that goes on a nuke fest isnt doing a very good job (kinda like a rdm who wont keep mages refreshed at all times). With a spell such as refresh, an extra 120mp can speed up downtime during pt's, and you try to get every extra edge you can as it all adds up. I've yet to PT with a rdm at my level who doesnt try to keep every mage refreshed at all times, but if i found one they wouldnt be in my PT very long.
If you go on a nuke fest you're a moron. Please go join the other people in the corner. You can sit down and recover mana like a smart BLM. You don't need Refresh, and you shouldn't even be heavily nuking until near the end of the EXP chain (i.e. start to pay in on the nukes around halfway Number 3)
Mirrasi, as cool as it would be to change servers (Carbuncle is notorious for having the worst JP attitudes on the server. Today, Foodmonsters LS was whacking away at Adamantoise, when a Japanese alliance just started to train everything they could on them to kill off FM. It's sad, in that because they were Japanese players, they got off free because only a Japanese GM can handle Japanese players. BUT! They still survived and destroyed the Adamantoise, so props to them), I'd have to decline :) First of all, it would take me too long to level Red Mage and then level Black Mage to reach your level. Secondly, it would take too much money to try to get back to level 50, and *STILL* need to buy an Ice Staff, Dark Staff, and a bunch of INT equipment (as well as Moldavite Earring).
And since I won't post again just for one more quotation.....whoever said PLD>BLM>RDM is a moron. Please, go turn off your game because it's obviously beyond your brainpower.
4 posts
I do rather enjoy non Rdm trying to explain to me how my job should or should not be played however that being said if you have never played rdm especially up to 41 then please do not tell a rdm how to do his/her job its annoying
I understand that yes it is my job to keep refresh on people and that it is an important task however it isnt the only thing we have to do so please dont be upset if you have to go without refresh for a few seconds those of us that know our job know that we need to keep you other mages and paladins and such refreshed so having a macro of REFRESH PLEASE!!!!!! <call1>
spammed a million times will do one of two things **** off a good rdm that is doing his/her job that just managed to miss you for a couple of seconds or make a bad rdm (yes I know they exist) want to cast refresh even less therfore making them worse at their job
Bottom line if you dont think we are doing our job in a pt do a /tell and say hey think you could make sure I get refreshed a little more often ? most of us arent unreasonable sorts I for one know I am not perfect at my job however I do the best that I can and if someone tells me hey maybe you could do this differently I will usually listen so long it is presented in a nice manner and not just HEY DO YER F'N JOB YA SORRY A#$ RDM BEFORE WE BOOT YA FROM THE GD GROUP
And as for all of you that are posting because you think you know our job stop and look at it from our perspective for a change being a rdm is difficult you have alot to do especially in a pt with no whm (been there done that got the tshirt)
So thats all I gotta say on the subject oh and before you even waste your energy I know some jerk that thinks he or she knows everything is going to post yelling and screaming and prolly cursing at me and in general being rude just know that at least from this rdm if ya post yelling and screaming at me your opinion will be duely noted and happily ignored :D however if you post a well thought out argument cus ya think something I posted is incorrect then I'll be happy to review your thoughts and who knows may agree with ya that is all
Ophilia 50rdm/24blm Bahamut server
I understand that yes it is my job to keep refresh on people and that it is an important task however it isnt the only thing we have to do so please dont be upset if you have to go without refresh for a few seconds those of us that know our job know that we need to keep you other mages and paladins and such refreshed so having a macro of REFRESH PLEASE!!!!!! <call1>
spammed a million times will do one of two things **** off a good rdm that is doing his/her job that just managed to miss you for a couple of seconds or make a bad rdm (yes I know they exist) want to cast refresh even less therfore making them worse at their job
Bottom line if you dont think we are doing our job in a pt do a /tell and say hey think you could make sure I get refreshed a little more often ? most of us arent unreasonable sorts I for one know I am not perfect at my job however I do the best that I can and if someone tells me hey maybe you could do this differently I will usually listen so long it is presented in a nice manner and not just HEY DO YER F'N JOB YA SORRY A#$ RDM BEFORE WE BOOT YA FROM THE GD GROUP
And as for all of you that are posting because you think you know our job stop and look at it from our perspective for a change being a rdm is difficult you have alot to do especially in a pt with no whm (been there done that got the tshirt)
So thats all I gotta say on the subject oh and before you even waste your energy I know some jerk that thinks he or she knows everything is going to post yelling and screaming and prolly cursing at me and in general being rude just know that at least from this rdm if ya post yelling and screaming at me your opinion will be duely noted and happily ignored :D however if you post a well thought out argument cus ya think something I posted is incorrect then I'll be happy to review your thoughts and who knows may agree with ya that is all
Ophilia 50rdm/24blm Bahamut server
People who try to bring dead horses back from the dead make baby jesus cry.
/sigh
{Warp}
Edited, Sun Jul 25 13:56:26 2004 by CiaranAnnrach
{Warp}
Edited, Sun Jul 25 13:56:26 2004 by CiaranAnnrach
First off I'm going to assume that the original poster is between levels 55-68. In that window refreshing BLMs isn't chain efficient since your melee's do a disproportionate amount of damage compared to the BLM. Before 55 they need it, however, for Ancient Magic and post 68 they need it for -Ga III and Ele IV since they are top of the food chain in damage. It's all about efficiency and this changes depending on levels.
Second, anyone that thinks RDMs are there for refresh is a fool. RDMs that think they're only there for refresh are pitied by those of us that know better and are some of the most pathetic individuals you'll ever meet.
Enfeebling (incl. Dispel) >>>>>>>>>>> Refresh
Remember that. If you have a refresh pause because that RDM is furiously trying to get silence to stick on a doom warlock keep in mind that he is trying to save you from a 700 HP AOE spell. The same goes for slow on high attack mobs or dispel on rapidly buffing mobs. If you don't enfeeble the mobs then all the MP regen in the world isn't going to help you.
Of course most people seem to think that we exist solely for what we can do for their class, but fail to understand that we have most difficult job in the game BAR NONE if we are to do it right. Further, almost everything that we do is critical in some way to enhancing the effeciency of our parties. BLMs that think we're nothing but their crack whores are woefully misguided, just like RNGs that think our sole purpose in life is to drop Haste on them. People like that should all take up BST and save those of us that are doing our jobs exceptionally well the grief of tolerating your idiocy.
Oh, and on the subject of BLMs and Clear Mind, the entire 2.5 minute regen of Refresh can be had in three ticks of sitting if they are wearing MP Rest+ gear like they should. It is one thing when fighting a 3hr mob like Kirin, but a whole different cup of tea when doing multiple faster battles.
Second, anyone that thinks RDMs are there for refresh is a fool. RDMs that think they're only there for refresh are pitied by those of us that know better and are some of the most pathetic individuals you'll ever meet.
Enfeebling (incl. Dispel) >>>>>>>>>>> Refresh
Remember that. If you have a refresh pause because that RDM is furiously trying to get silence to stick on a doom warlock keep in mind that he is trying to save you from a 700 HP AOE spell. The same goes for slow on high attack mobs or dispel on rapidly buffing mobs. If you don't enfeeble the mobs then all the MP regen in the world isn't going to help you.
Of course most people seem to think that we exist solely for what we can do for their class, but fail to understand that we have most difficult job in the game BAR NONE if we are to do it right. Further, almost everything that we do is critical in some way to enhancing the effeciency of our parties. BLMs that think we're nothing but their crack whores are woefully misguided, just like RNGs that think our sole purpose in life is to drop Haste on them. People like that should all take up BST and save those of us that are doing our jobs exceptionally well the grief of tolerating your idiocy.
Oh, and on the subject of BLMs and Clear Mind, the entire 2.5 minute regen of Refresh can be had in three ticks of sitting if they are wearing MP Rest+ gear like they should. It is one thing when fighting a 3hr mob like Kirin, but a whole different cup of tea when doing multiple faster battles.
6 posts
What the... a black mage need refresh they are 62blm/31whm unless you are a noobs then you have always full mp and the whm is low on mp your a jerks i never pt with blm they not use mana pool they have like 900 mp mana poll as rdm i have 600 mp and the white mage 800 so my refresh is Me - pally - White - Black and sometimes the drk when the mobs we fight does not have mp to aspir i know my job and i want to say other thing in a JP pt they dont want to see the rdm as a melee, cause melee suck i know enhancing is cool you hit the mobs for 5+8 sometimes 0 + 15 but go buy a Dark staff ice staff and white staff and use it propertly then you will become the best rdm in your server.
And Refresh is a right not a previledge in all my pt im in everyone they have a mana pool they always stay refreshed.
i have a chain for refresh and when i see my refresh wear off i recast on me then i continue the list it works very well. AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAYS PLEASE REFRESH ME that is anoying sometimes i have to help for cure so refresh is not up but dont worry i know my job.
The only thing i hate too is when the blm have full mp and rest and the whm is overcured sometimes the blm can cure2 is not aggro the mobs unless your tank is a pld not a nin lol nin lost easily aggro but other melee have to provoke the mobs when everyone do her job its just a funny game.
thanks see you
And Refresh is a right not a previledge in all my pt im in everyone they have a mana pool they always stay refreshed.
i have a chain for refresh and when i see my refresh wear off i recast on me then i continue the list it works very well. AND I HATE WHEN PEOPLE SAYS PLEASE REFRESH ME that is anoying sometimes i have to help for cure so refresh is not up but dont worry i know my job.
The only thing i hate too is when the blm have full mp and rest and the whm is overcured sometimes the blm can cure2 is not aggro the mobs unless your tank is a pld not a nin lol nin lost easily aggro but other melee have to provoke the mobs when everyone do her job its just a funny game.
thanks see you
Ok lighten up its just a game. Usually RDMs decide what order they are going to refresh party members, and I have never been in a party where people begged for Refresh... though the rdm I alway party with does refresh for pld>whm> and every other round the blm. For the mostpart the blms are quite pleased that they are even getting refreshed because most rdms dont refresh the blm, and the blms dont expect them to. Dispell is more of a priority for the rdms than refresh though refresh does help to decrease downtime.
38 posts
Ok let's just stop all the arguements right here.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
38 posts
Ok let's just stop all the arguements right here.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
38 posts
Ok let's just stop all the arguements right here.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
If the RDM's only job is to Refresh then RDM would not have anyother spell. SE gave all those other spells to RDMs so they can use them....duh. I do not deny the fact that Refresh may be the most important spell but it is definately not the ONLY important spell. What about Dispel?
Also if you ever played RDM you will know that debuffs help. Try to go fight something without debuffs then with. You'll notice you get hit for a lot less damage at the end of the battle. Seriously, don't talk if you have never played a RDM up to at least 25.
Refresh brings back 150mp not 120mp. If you don't believe me test it yourself.
RDM + RDM > RDM + WHM
<3 RDM
<3 RDM
If you look at how long refresh lasts, you'll notice it is only effective for refreshing at most 3 people.
This is usually:
RDM
PAL
(main healer)
or
RDM
(main healer)
BLM
I am a WHM.
If you ever cast refresh on me as the first one on the cycle I will will frown upon you for one simple reason. Your wasting your MP. When you cast refresh on yourself at the beginning of a session you immediately start gaining back used MP. I'll probably be at full.
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned I agree that RDM is first on refresh list but for a different reason than what was presented.
It is rare that a RDM can find enough MP after that to refresh one more person, that only happens if you do not enfeeble at all or cure at all.
If all you other classes whine and complain about refresh, I'd advise you invite a BRD instead of a RDM. There is a reason why there are differences between RDM buff and others, if RDM could do everything perfectly, you would not need any other class.
Whoever says 2 RDM is better than a WHM + RDM, I hope you enjoy your raise 1 cause that's all your gonna get. Protect and shell? forget it. The bar-series of spells? Forget that too. Oh, did I mention that MP regen and usage is more efficient in a RDM + WHM group?
RDM is not the best buffer in the game, they are mearly the ones with a bit of buffs from WHM and BRD but single person only buffs.
They are enfeeblers first and foremost. I'm sorry but a 6MP spell can easily save me 24 or more MP (1 paralyze is all you need to get it back + interest, slow is even better IMO) and the group as a whole even more than that esp. when they dispel.
But you probably don't notice it because all you ever see are the big numbers you get from hitting the mob.
Guess what? How about you turn that little thing that puts your dmg on log to screen and for once watch things from a support players point of view? Watch how HP and MP bars go down, watch for the WS of enemies, watch when things such as paralyze freeze the mob for 3 turns in a row while slow makes those turns painful for the mob to recover from.
No support player cares about what numbers your hitting for individually, we only see the corrolation between resources used vs. life bar of mob.
In that way, the best of the support players will take appropriate action to adjust play style, not to the whims of someone who only cares about his/her individual dmg but to what makes things more efficient for the PT as a whole.
As WHM, I get told to haste all the time but I ignore it. Wanna know why? It's not efficient for me to haste every melee. I would if we have ample healing power and are short on melee and dmg.
/emote waits for the wild rate ups from support players and rate downs from dmg dealers.
This is usually:
RDM
PAL
(main healer)
or
RDM
(main healer)
BLM
I am a WHM.
If you ever cast refresh on me as the first one on the cycle I will will frown upon you for one simple reason. Your wasting your MP. When you cast refresh on yourself at the beginning of a session you immediately start gaining back used MP. I'll probably be at full.
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned I agree that RDM is first on refresh list but for a different reason than what was presented.
It is rare that a RDM can find enough MP after that to refresh one more person, that only happens if you do not enfeeble at all or cure at all.
If all you other classes whine and complain about refresh, I'd advise you invite a BRD instead of a RDM. There is a reason why there are differences between RDM buff and others, if RDM could do everything perfectly, you would not need any other class.
Whoever says 2 RDM is better than a WHM + RDM, I hope you enjoy your raise 1 cause that's all your gonna get. Protect and shell? forget it. The bar-series of spells? Forget that too. Oh, did I mention that MP regen and usage is more efficient in a RDM + WHM group?
RDM is not the best buffer in the game, they are mearly the ones with a bit of buffs from WHM and BRD but single person only buffs.
They are enfeeblers first and foremost. I'm sorry but a 6MP spell can easily save me 24 or more MP (1 paralyze is all you need to get it back + interest, slow is even better IMO) and the group as a whole even more than that esp. when they dispel.
But you probably don't notice it because all you ever see are the big numbers you get from hitting the mob.
Guess what? How about you turn that little thing that puts your dmg on log to screen and for once watch things from a support players point of view? Watch how HP and MP bars go down, watch for the WS of enemies, watch when things such as paralyze freeze the mob for 3 turns in a row while slow makes those turns painful for the mob to recover from.
No support player cares about what numbers your hitting for individually, we only see the corrolation between resources used vs. life bar of mob.
In that way, the best of the support players will take appropriate action to adjust play style, not to the whims of someone who only cares about his/her individual dmg but to what makes things more efficient for the PT as a whole.
As WHM, I get told to haste all the time but I ignore it. Wanna know why? It's not efficient for me to haste every melee. I would if we have ample healing power and are short on melee and dmg.
/emote waits for the wild rate ups from support players and rate downs from dmg dealers.
I am a level 38RDM/BLM and after reading this thread I am getting ready to argue with people I dont want to argue with. Personally I have been reading info on how to build a proper RDM with melee and magic involved in the picture since level one. I have in this reading found many refresh guides and can honestly say that I will rarely ever give a BLM refresh post clear mind 3 which I believe is 50+. From everything I have read the order of Myself, pld, healers sounds just about right. Sure BLM and DRK's can get it sparingly but to be honest every GOOD BLM and DRK better have some serious DRK magic lvled and should be casting MP draining spells. Combined with clear mind a BLM should hardly ever need this. Somewhere else in this thread a BLM put that enfeelbling is usless post 41. I havent gotten to this point yet but find that hard to believe and continue to find that if you have never played as a RDM you dont know or understnad the job. MY job is about to change as I get convert and refresh soon. But in changing all my job has done has grown more broad. Enfeeble....regen...refresh....dispell...heal...blah blah blah. Do I have nothing else to look forward to other then arguments and /blistings by people or myself. I, prior to this thread, was quite excited about being a rdm and still am. I think the main problem is that people dont understand out job and the complexity that it involves. I need to lvl my skills too. Neglecting the elemental skill will prevent you from ever passing level 70, since it is through elemental magic that you complete Genkei 5. Now I am just rambling about worries for the future......
bump
RPGr wrote:
If you look at how long refresh lasts, you'll notice it is only effective for refreshing at most 3 people.
Actually, it can theoretically do the whole party:
refresh lasts 2 and 1/2 minutes
You can cast it every 20 seconds so in 2 minutes you can theoretically get 6 casts off. Even counting in cast time you could _just_ manage to refresh the whole party constantly with almost no time to spare. Of course, a RDM doing this will be constantly busy (I have nightmares about these kinds of pts).
Very well put! ^^
I do have a "cycle" or rather prioratize who I am refreshing at any given time. I've also added the recast timer so that the pt knows when I am ready to cast refresh again so that they don't think that I've forgotten.
looks kind of like this:
/ma "Refresh" <t>
/wait 18
/p <Refresh> <Ready>!
I just hate when people's refresh wears off, they expect to get it as soon as they get the message that their refresh effect has worn off.
I do have a "cycle" or rather prioratize who I am refreshing at any given time. I've also added the recast timer so that the pt knows when I am ready to cast refresh again so that they don't think that I've forgotten.
looks kind of like this:
/ma "Refresh" <t>
/wait 18
/p <Refresh> <Ready>!
I just hate when people's refresh wears off, they expect to get it as soon as they get the message that their refresh effect has worn off.
I'll agree with some of what the orignal poster said, but I gotta tell you, you need a slight attitude adjuestment.
As a level 51 Blm I have asked for a Refresh spell exactly ONCE in all my time partying. If I get Refreshed great, if not, I can cope without it.
This whole thing about Refresh being a privileige and not a right. I agree with it, but you know what? Getting into a party is the same thing. If you're privilegded enough to get into a party, give me the same priviledge and toss me a Refresh once in a while.
As for this whole thing about Blms not needing a Refresh... Ok. You don't NEED to have the tank pull the mob of you if you get hate. You don't NEED to have the Whm cure you if your HP falls. In fact you don't even NEED a party to get exp at all. You're right, I don't need refresh anymore than you need those things. Tell me, how long are you going to stay in a party if the Whm doesn't heal, the tank doesn't tank and so forth and so on.
More to the point, Blms have Clear Mind BECUASE we go through so much more MP than most other classes to. Toss an AM spell and watch your MP be cut by 60% or better. Yes, we can regen it faster than most, but that doesn't disallow us from Refresh.
Like I said, I rarely rarely ever ask for Refresh. If I get it great, if not that's ok. It doesn't make a break a party.
As a level 51 Blm I have asked for a Refresh spell exactly ONCE in all my time partying. If I get Refreshed great, if not, I can cope without it.
This whole thing about Refresh being a privileige and not a right. I agree with it, but you know what? Getting into a party is the same thing. If you're privilegded enough to get into a party, give me the same priviledge and toss me a Refresh once in a while.
As for this whole thing about Blms not needing a Refresh... Ok. You don't NEED to have the tank pull the mob of you if you get hate. You don't NEED to have the Whm cure you if your HP falls. In fact you don't even NEED a party to get exp at all. You're right, I don't need refresh anymore than you need those things. Tell me, how long are you going to stay in a party if the Whm doesn't heal, the tank doesn't tank and so forth and so on.
More to the point, Blms have Clear Mind BECUASE we go through so much more MP than most other classes to. Toss an AM spell and watch your MP be cut by 60% or better. Yes, we can regen it faster than most, but that doesn't disallow us from Refresh.
Like I said, I rarely rarely ever ask for Refresh. If I get it great, if not that's ok. It doesn't make a break a party.
As a 66 Rdm (currently, I'm leveling a few other jobs atm), I have little to no problem with people asking for Refresh. I usually keep my Refresh cycle very tight, squeezing in other party members who don't need it as often every other round or so, depending on MP usage. If I'm resting and my Refresh wears, I immediately stand and begin the Refresh cycle on myself and other party mates. With Dark Staff, a leveled BLM sub, and Convert, my MP is not a problem.. I can get it back very easily. I'd rather give everyone else have a steady MP flow, since I believe RDMs job is primarily to decrease downtime, much like Bard.. total support type in parties.
The reason I don't mind people asking for Refresh when it wore is because 9 times out of 10, it's because we had a link during the fight and I got waylaid after the ordeal (Me having to sleep it, cast Phalanx and watch it closely, etc.. sometimes battles can get pretty hectic).
However, when Drks ask for Refresh AND they waste their MP, I'm hesitant to even bother fitting them on the cycle. This rarely happens though, as most Drks I party with are highly competent and I can tell they make good use of their MP by what spells they cast (Absorbs instead of crappy Nukes during MBs). In fact, I don't think I've partied with anyone like that in a looong time.
I've been pretty lucky though, most people I party with see quickly that I've got the Refresh cycle down, and I'm hoping most Drks realize that I watch how much MP they use. I usually toss em a bone at the end of every 2nd or 3rd Refresh cycle if their MP is dwindling, just to keep the Dark magic coming. Also, for the sake of discussion, I almost always Refresh the BLM, simply because most BLMs know that they don't have to unload all or most of their MP in one battle. I'd rather have them at 60% or higher MP until Chain 4 or 5.
The reason I don't mind people asking for Refresh when it wore is because 9 times out of 10, it's because we had a link during the fight and I got waylaid after the ordeal (Me having to sleep it, cast Phalanx and watch it closely, etc.. sometimes battles can get pretty hectic).
However, when Drks ask for Refresh AND they waste their MP, I'm hesitant to even bother fitting them on the cycle. This rarely happens though, as most Drks I party with are highly competent and I can tell they make good use of their MP by what spells they cast (Absorbs instead of crappy Nukes during MBs). In fact, I don't think I've partied with anyone like that in a looong time.
I've been pretty lucky though, most people I party with see quickly that I've got the Refresh cycle down, and I'm hoping most Drks realize that I watch how much MP they use. I usually toss em a bone at the end of every 2nd or 3rd Refresh cycle if their MP is dwindling, just to keep the Dark magic coming. Also, for the sake of discussion, I almost always Refresh the BLM, simply because most BLMs know that they don't have to unload all or most of their MP in one battle. I'd rather have them at 60% or higher MP until Chain 4 or 5.
The reason why threads like this are pointless is because firstly, not that many people actually bother to read discussion forums. Those who do tend to be better than average at their jobs and this thread isn't targeted to them.
Secondly, most RDMs suck at thier job. Yes, any RDM will tell you that they have the hardest job in the game, maybe second only to NINs. So combine the fact that its maybe the hardest job in the game with the fact that of all the people who play the job, maybe 1/10 of them bother to research how to do it right and what do you get? TONS OF BAD RDMs. In fact, I've only played with one RDM that I considered worth thier salt and he was in a static with me. I never noticed Refresh was off when PTing with that guy. Everyone else, yes; I have to ask or bite my tounge and eat downtime as a result of thier incompetence.
Its seems that you rdms on this forum have a set of axioms that you follow. For example; PLDs are so high on the Refersh priority list but go read the PLD forum and look at how many threads there are about stupid rdms that don't even think PLDs need refresh.
So how can expect us to follow a set of rules designed around giving proper respect to GOOD rdms when GOOD rdms are so few and far between? And additionally, how can you as a good rdm, expect that we're going to give you the benifit of the doubt when you may be the first and only good rdm we've ever seen?
Secondly, most RDMs suck at thier job. Yes, any RDM will tell you that they have the hardest job in the game, maybe second only to NINs. So combine the fact that its maybe the hardest job in the game with the fact that of all the people who play the job, maybe 1/10 of them bother to research how to do it right and what do you get? TONS OF BAD RDMs. In fact, I've only played with one RDM that I considered worth thier salt and he was in a static with me. I never noticed Refresh was off when PTing with that guy. Everyone else, yes; I have to ask or bite my tounge and eat downtime as a result of thier incompetence.
Its seems that you rdms on this forum have a set of axioms that you follow. For example; PLDs are so high on the Refersh priority list but go read the PLD forum and look at how many threads there are about stupid rdms that don't even think PLDs need refresh.
So how can expect us to follow a set of rules designed around giving proper respect to GOOD rdms when GOOD rdms are so few and far between? And additionally, how can you as a good rdm, expect that we're going to give you the benifit of the doubt when you may be the first and only good rdm we've ever seen?
Quote:
47rdm/22nin bismark I have a serious problem in parties that have 3-4 mages (including me) and all DEMANDING refresh. In my last party I was not only required to do this, but also debuff, nuke, melee AND back-up heal. After 4 mobs I told them to refresh their d@!mn selves and bounced. I'm never THAT desperate to be in a party. I always take care of the essentials (WHM,BLM or PALLY and myself) but not all of them. I'm not gonna rely on "convert" exactly every ten minutes to do all these jobs! I REFUSE!!!!!
refresh, debuff, enfeeble, nuke and back up heal is a rdm's job. If you can't do this then you should select another job.
22 posts
ok this to all the idiots rdm that complain all the time and dont know how to use a rdm. First of all the rdm job is buff the pt and to weak the mob thats all he does not attack hey may help on MB but thats about it. when rdm is on a pt the first thing he most do his cast refresh on all does who use mp most importan the pld. the problem with this is that only 20% of the rdm does this with out being ask. while 70% biches when they r being ask becouse the feel like attacking the mob wich makes them stupid cuz rdm cant they only do half of the damage that a blm or a fither could so y bother. if u dont like to buff then get a nother job but dont make rdm look stupid
Wow im really surprised at the general tone and mood of this thread.
After reading these couple pages, i will NEVER ask for refresh; I'm making up my mind right now. I dont want to get my head bitten off or make anyone angry, so ill just do without it.
Jeez.
After reading these couple pages, i will NEVER ask for refresh; I'm making up my mind right now. I dont want to get my head bitten off or make anyone angry, so ill just do without it.
Jeez.
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