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- Refresh etiquette....please read <_>
Refresh etiquette....please read <_>Follow
BLM's need to learn that Refresh is not needed for them. As a Galkan Paladin with 146 MP at level 50 (even less after I have to give up my RSE gloves for AF), I usually want to have Refresh every other battle. My MP usage per battle goes something like Flash, 2 Cure II, maybe another Flash if long battle. I will always rest after a battle unless I am particpating in a Skillchain (which doesn't happen too often because of my MP issue). Refresh is always a great thing to have but if I don't have a RDM or BRD in the PT its ok, just means that I'll have to rest more, therefore not get as many kills per hour, but only about 2 or 3 less.
Not having the energy to read all 100+ posts, I did however note one choice bit:
This is aboslutely untrue. Having played RDM till 57 (when I got tired of the whiny players: prime example, a whm who had a "<call2> Refresh Plz <mp>" macro he'd spam every 10 seconds, literally), I am now taking my blm (63 atm) all the way. My RL friend (a pld) and I never party without a rdm or brd for two main reasons: dispel and enfeeble. Please get a bit higher when the mobs spam buffs (and rough ones at that: robber crab shell - nothing like seeing your nukes land for half damage) or hit HARD. Yes, I like refresh. Yes, it's wonderful to have. But I'd much rather have an RDM to make the fight easier.
All jobs (except the poor BRDs) are given an A+ rating in one skill, and for an RDM it's Enfeeble.
Quote:
A RDMs job is to refresh. period. Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you
This is aboslutely untrue. Having played RDM till 57 (when I got tired of the whiny players: prime example, a whm who had a "<call2> Refresh Plz <mp>" macro he'd spam every 10 seconds, literally), I am now taking my blm (63 atm) all the way. My RL friend (a pld) and I never party without a rdm or brd for two main reasons: dispel and enfeeble. Please get a bit higher when the mobs spam buffs (and rough ones at that: robber crab shell - nothing like seeing your nukes land for half damage) or hit HARD. Yes, I like refresh. Yes, it's wonderful to have. But I'd much rather have an RDM to make the fight easier.
All jobs (except the poor BRDs) are given an A+ rating in one skill, and for an RDM it's Enfeeble.
3 posts
That read was the most arrogant assinine post I have read in a long time.
Quick Note: Red Mages are not that Special...
Yes, they play a role in any successful party, but so does the tank, healer, damage dealers...etc
To whine about people asking for refresh simple means that you suck as a RDM. If people have to ask; you are not doing your job appropriately. Also, if you are not refreshing your BLM you are gimping your party, just as much so as if you were not enfeebling. With a little more mana your BLM can defuff as well (Frost & Choke) in most cases which are just as important as a RDM's enfeebles.
Also at higher levels (51+) not refreshing your BLM means that you will not be getting your 1150+ Magic Bursts which take atleast 1/4 of any creatures life at those levels.
So here is what I do as a BLM when I am put on the non-refresh list... I wait, and wait, could be a couple of minutes... I build up enough MP (150) and then Warp II the RDM home to think about it and say (Hello!) to the new RDM in the party.
2 Cents from a BLM's perspective on the initial post.
Quick Note: Red Mages are not that Special...
Yes, they play a role in any successful party, but so does the tank, healer, damage dealers...etc
To whine about people asking for refresh simple means that you suck as a RDM. If people have to ask; you are not doing your job appropriately. Also, if you are not refreshing your BLM you are gimping your party, just as much so as if you were not enfeebling. With a little more mana your BLM can defuff as well (Frost & Choke) in most cases which are just as important as a RDM's enfeebles.
Also at higher levels (51+) not refreshing your BLM means that you will not be getting your 1150+ Magic Bursts which take atleast 1/4 of any creatures life at those levels.
So here is what I do as a BLM when I am put on the non-refresh list... I wait, and wait, could be a couple of minutes... I build up enough MP (150) and then Warp II the RDM home to think about it and say (Hello!) to the new RDM in the party.
2 Cents from a BLM's perspective on the initial post.
NIce and long post with very interesting contradictions and a few good points on all sides.
I just want to say i know my job and i wont be mad if you ask for refresh.
Actual;y i think im quite good on my job cause i do keep the pld refershed and the blm as well when i can.
So if you see me over there with my flag up.... INVITE ME
Thats all
I just want to say i know my job and i wont be mad if you ask for refresh.
Actual;y i think im quite good on my job cause i do keep the pld refershed and the blm as well when i can.
So if you see me over there with my flag up.... INVITE ME
Thats all
26 posts
Curvacious wrote:
Kind of off topic, and I'm really dissapointed in myself, but time after time, people keep ignoring what we're saying. As Black Mage, you have a higher MP heal rate than ANYONE.
Jesus, sit down and heal every now and then, that's part of the job. If you think you're more important than, say the White Mage or the Paladin, then by all means, party without them. Tell me how it goes, because I know sure as hell we can survive without you, just as a red mage "isn't special," the same can be applied for Black Mage. NO party NEEDS you to survive.
As for the ancient magic SC, if you're wasting all of your MP on the first or second chain, then you need to be taken out back and hit over the head with a 2x4. If you don't have enough mana in the 4th or 5th chian, then you need to be taken out back and hit over the head with a 2x4. You should cast slowly, taking into consideration your MP. No doubt you ignored what all of your colleagues have said and are trying to make a point, but Black Mages are self regulating, if you're running out of MP then you're casting too fast, if you don't use MP then I hope you die slowly and painfully.
Also, I want to point out that most people are "Ok" with the occasional, "Do you think you can refresh me when you have the time?" What we aren't ok with, is the "REFRESH ME! OMG I'M DIEING WITHOUT REFRESH, GOD ALL-MIGHTY I LOST 5 MP AND OMG LOLZ!!!111oneoneone" (yes, i spelled "dying" wrong, I know)
Don't Warp 2 people away, that's messed up. You won't get very many parties at higher levels when you do that. I bet most parties tell you that you're an idiot, and I almost guarantee, that you're kicked from most of those parties, or they wait for the Red Mage to come back. You're saying stupid **** on Allakhazam boards, and that really dissapoints too, because while you think you're defending Black Mages, and trying to make a point...you're making a complete idiot of yourself. The same applies to most of the people who come here saying the SAME stupid ****, that we've all heard thousands of times. We're not trying to tell you how to do your job, you're trying to tell us how to do ours, please, don't use the same retarded arguement more than once. If you want us to change, offer a good solution with a good reason that we can't prove wrong. If you could honestly prove to me, that a "refresh" to a Black Mage, would siginificantly improve exp, then I will make you guys a priority, below PLD and WHM.
Dia II pwnz your dark enfeeble magic...PWNZ
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:05:06 2005 by Ninjuigi
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:06:50 2005 by Ninjuigi
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:08:54 2005 by Ninjuigi
Quote:
That read was the most arrogant assinine post I have read in a long time.
Quick Note: Red Mages are not that Special...
Yes, they play a role in any successful party, but so does the tank, healer, damage dealers...etc
To whine about people asking for refresh simple means that you suck as a RDM. If people have to ask; you are not doing your job appropriately. Also, if you are not refreshing your BLM you are gimping your party, just as much so as if you were not enfeebling. With a little more mana your BLM can defuff as well (Frost & Choke) in most cases which are just as important as a RDM's enfeebles.
Also at higher levels (51+) not refreshing your BLM means that you will not be getting your 1150+ Magic Bursts which take atleast 1/4 of any creatures life at those levels.
So here is what I do as a BLM when I am put on the non-refresh list... I wait, and wait, could be a couple of minutes... I build up enough MP (150) and then Warp II the RDM home to think about it and say (Hello!) to the new RDM in the party.
2 Cents from a BLM's perspective on the initial post.
Quick Note: Red Mages are not that Special...
Yes, they play a role in any successful party, but so does the tank, healer, damage dealers...etc
To whine about people asking for refresh simple means that you suck as a RDM. If people have to ask; you are not doing your job appropriately. Also, if you are not refreshing your BLM you are gimping your party, just as much so as if you were not enfeebling. With a little more mana your BLM can defuff as well (Frost & Choke) in most cases which are just as important as a RDM's enfeebles.
Also at higher levels (51+) not refreshing your BLM means that you will not be getting your 1150+ Magic Bursts which take atleast 1/4 of any creatures life at those levels.
So here is what I do as a BLM when I am put on the non-refresh list... I wait, and wait, could be a couple of minutes... I build up enough MP (150) and then Warp II the RDM home to think about it and say (Hello!) to the new RDM in the party.
2 Cents from a BLM's perspective on the initial post.
Kind of off topic, and I'm really dissapointed in myself, but time after time, people keep ignoring what we're saying. As Black Mage, you have a higher MP heal rate than ANYONE.
Jesus, sit down and heal every now and then, that's part of the job. If you think you're more important than, say the White Mage or the Paladin, then by all means, party without them. Tell me how it goes, because I know sure as hell we can survive without you, just as a red mage "isn't special," the same can be applied for Black Mage. NO party NEEDS you to survive.
As for the ancient magic SC, if you're wasting all of your MP on the first or second chain, then you need to be taken out back and hit over the head with a 2x4. If you don't have enough mana in the 4th or 5th chian, then you need to be taken out back and hit over the head with a 2x4. You should cast slowly, taking into consideration your MP. No doubt you ignored what all of your colleagues have said and are trying to make a point, but Black Mages are self regulating, if you're running out of MP then you're casting too fast, if you don't use MP then I hope you die slowly and painfully.
Also, I want to point out that most people are "Ok" with the occasional, "Do you think you can refresh me when you have the time?" What we aren't ok with, is the "REFRESH ME! OMG I'M DIEING WITHOUT REFRESH, GOD ALL-MIGHTY I LOST 5 MP AND OMG LOLZ!!!111oneoneone" (yes, i spelled "dying" wrong, I know)
Don't Warp 2 people away, that's messed up. You won't get very many parties at higher levels when you do that. I bet most parties tell you that you're an idiot, and I almost guarantee, that you're kicked from most of those parties, or they wait for the Red Mage to come back. You're saying stupid **** on Allakhazam boards, and that really dissapoints too, because while you think you're defending Black Mages, and trying to make a point...you're making a complete idiot of yourself. The same applies to most of the people who come here saying the SAME stupid ****, that we've all heard thousands of times. We're not trying to tell you how to do your job, you're trying to tell us how to do ours, please, don't use the same retarded arguement more than once. If you want us to change, offer a good solution with a good reason that we can't prove wrong. If you could honestly prove to me, that a "refresh" to a Black Mage, would siginificantly improve exp, then I will make you guys a priority, below PLD and WHM.
Dia II pwnz your dark enfeeble magic...PWNZ
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:05:06 2005 by Ninjuigi
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:06:50 2005 by Ninjuigi
Edited, Sun Apr 3 04:08:54 2005 by Ninjuigi
Wow that took a long while to read, but i do agree on your post.
*Sigh* along with the numerous others who have disected your post and told you off, i am going to do the same sence you are sofa-king we-tod-ed.
/slap -_- Are you kidding me? How else would we get you(the WHm) the mana to cast those speels if we(the RDM's) dont have the mana to cast Refresh?
/slap again!
Do RDMs not have Cure I-IV?
/slap
Do RDM's not have Refresh on them selves at all times?
/slap
Hmmmm
WHM: Cure(24MP), cure(24MP), cure(24mp), cure(24mp), haste(40mp(I think)), protectra/shellra(50mp)(I know they have other spells, but these are just the basics in a PT) = 270MP
RDM: Refresh(Me)(40mp), Enfeeble(70-100mp), Refresh(PLD)(40mp), enfeeble/Haste(again 40 i think for haste, 50 or so for enfeebles)= 240-340mp if the cast most enfeebles.
/slap
/slap He should cast it on himself/herself, why? OMG! If they(the RDM) doesnt have MP they cant cast refresh on the other members who need it.
/slap >_> Again, do RDM's not have Cure I-IV? And again, how in the **** is that selfish? Its not self interest, its how we get out mana to get you your mana. I dont think you get it. Lets continue, shall we?
/slap Anthing is better than nothing, if you didnt have it youd probably ***** about how you dont have it then when you do have it you say its noth worth it cause it only restores 150mp. -_-
.
/slap O.o Did you forget what you just typed?
Congratulations! You may have gotten something right, except that a PLd will almost never have full life unless he/she(the PLD) is goin PLD/NIN w/Utsusemi(sp?) and eve then they couldnt tank properly w/o provoke or the WHM is over-curing and uses the MP only for curing the PLD which is good. but like you said "doesnt contribute to the whole".
Other half on next post. 8^)
Edited, Sun Apr 3 05:02:26 2005 by Kekkyojen
Quote:
Why exactly do you think that yourself (a RDM) has higher priority than the healer?
/slap -_- Are you kidding me? How else would we get you(the WHm) the mana to cast those speels if we(the RDM's) dont have the mana to cast Refresh?
/slap again!
Quote:
WHM mana is the party's life; that's it, no question; whm is out of mana then everyone dies--a WHM gets low on mana and everyone has to wait between battles.
Do RDMs not have Cure I-IV?
/slap
Quote:
RDM or PLD run out of mana and everything is OK--a bit slower, but not a terrible tragedy.
Do RDM's not have Refresh on them selves at all times?
/slap
Quote:
WHM also use much more mana much faster than anyone else.
Hmmmm
WHM: Cure(24MP), cure(24MP), cure(24mp), cure(24mp), haste(40mp(I think)), protectra/shellra(50mp)(I know they have other spells, but these are just the basics in a PT) = 270MP
RDM: Refresh(Me)(40mp), Enfeeble(70-100mp), Refresh(PLD)(40mp), enfeeble/Haste(again 40 i think for haste, 50 or so for enfeebles)= 240-340mp if the cast most enfeebles.
/slap
Quote:
I chalk this up to selfishness--Just the idea that because the RDM has the spell, he should cast it on himself first.
/slap He should cast it on himself/herself, why? OMG! If they(the RDM) doesnt have MP they cant cast refresh on the other members who need it.
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I'm a WHM and if I die, then everyone dies--and still I will almost always heal the mele people first. You've got to put aside your own self-interest for the good of the whole.
/slap >_> Again, do RDM's not have Cure I-IV? And again, how in the **** is that selfish? Its not self interest, its how we get out mana to get you your mana. I dont think you get it. Lets continue, shall we?
Quote:
Also, I think your reasoning is a bit off on when you think refresh is needed. It may eventually restore 120 mana, but this takes time, silly.
/slap Anthing is better than nothing, if you didnt have it youd probably ***** about how you dont have it then when you do have it you say its noth worth it cause it only restores 150mp. -_-
Quote:
Especially on a WHM who is casting *constantly*, refresh should always be on, because it takes time to make up that mana--and a good WHM will be using it much faster than it's coming back
/slap O.o Did you forget what you just typed?
Quote:
By the same tolken (and I believe that this is widely agreed) a paladin should always have regen on--because even though he may be close to full life, he will be taking nearly constant damage--and the effect of regen will just ease the burden of healing him.
Congratulations! You may have gotten something right, except that a PLd will almost never have full life unless he/she(the PLD) is goin PLD/NIN w/Utsusemi(sp?) and eve then they couldnt tank properly w/o provoke or the WHM is over-curing and uses the MP only for curing the PLD which is good. but like you said "doesnt contribute to the whole".
Other half on next post. 8^)
Edited, Sun Apr 3 05:02:26 2005 by Kekkyojen
Lol Ninjuiji way to revive a 4 month dead post lol . Why bring something like this back from the dead .
Now that I posted i guess i should at least add my thoughts . Every good rdm I have seen can refresh 3-4 members , enfeeble , dispel and occasionally MB and nuke . A blm should get refresh , it might not be urgent enough to ALWAYS have it but it is needed . For those that think a blm can sit down to refresh 150 mp ... plan on having your blm sitting on his *** while you guys try to get chain 4 and 5 on your own . Refreshing a blm is good for the whole party , when i get it I will use extra mp to support the party not nuke . Hell I even help cure the rdm after he converts so he wont have to use all his own mp , but you better believe if i dont get refresh there is no way in hell im ever throwing a cure to the rdm even if he is about to die.
Everytime i come across a Rdm that doesnt wanna refresh a blm is when they like to melee. They dont rest and use a darkstaff to regen their own mp instead they stand around and save TP for their uber sword WS every 3 battles lol .
Now that I posted i guess i should at least add my thoughts . Every good rdm I have seen can refresh 3-4 members , enfeeble , dispel and occasionally MB and nuke . A blm should get refresh , it might not be urgent enough to ALWAYS have it but it is needed . For those that think a blm can sit down to refresh 150 mp ... plan on having your blm sitting on his *** while you guys try to get chain 4 and 5 on your own . Refreshing a blm is good for the whole party , when i get it I will use extra mp to support the party not nuke . Hell I even help cure the rdm after he converts so he wont have to use all his own mp , but you better believe if i dont get refresh there is no way in hell im ever throwing a cure to the rdm even if he is about to die.
Everytime i come across a Rdm that doesnt wanna refresh a blm is when they like to melee. They dont rest and use a darkstaff to regen their own mp instead they stand around and save TP for their uber sword WS every 3 battles lol .
Quote:
Furthermore, you sound so indignant about being a 'busy' RDM with lots of other things to do. LOL.
/slap to the max. We enfeeble, haste, Refresh, sometimes back up cure, MB, and in rare cases melee. I feel the need to /slap you again..../SLAP
Quote:
A RDMs job is to refresh.
Yes, that may be true in a sense but did SE not give us other spells to cast?
/slap
Quote:
period.
-_- /slap
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Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you--ever noticed why no one went out of their way to find a RDM until after 41? (or whatever the lvl is :p)
@_@ lmao, are you kdding me? Ever try to fight a crab or a beelte w/o a RDM, good @#%^in luck(Yes NINs have enfeebles but most might be a little busy tanking.) BLMs also have enfeebles, but again, we(the RDM) have an A+ in enfeebling.
Quote:
If people wanted damage, they'd get a BLM, if healing a WHM--
Congratulations! Almost an another thing almost right, that whats those jobs are for, but again(You like to repeat stuff differently dont you?) we(the RDM) dont have an A+ in any of those, ever read the descripstion of a RDM? A combination of both healin, nuking an melee.
Quote:
ask anyone what they want a RDM for and see what they say.
Probably Refresh yes, but most knowledgeable people are aware of theyre enfeebling ablities.
/slap jsut for thinking that.
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Sure you have other abilities yada yada yada--but that's not why people invite you to party.
/slap I beg to differ.
Quote:
And RMDs are great--don't get me wrong, I love to be in parties with them, and appreciate what you guys do. But what you guys do is Refresh--
>_< Then why did you make the post and totally tell us(the RDM's) what and what we cant do with our jobs? /slap
Quote:
the rest is just fluff and arrogance.
I wish i had a hand that would go throught the internet and /slap you for real.
@_@ third part on hopefully last post.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 05:05:56 2005 by Kekkyojen
Quote:
As a WHM, I will ask the RDM for refresh at the beginning of the party--because if they drop the ball and aren't paying attention then we all have to sit through down time and battles which are more dangerous than they should be.
As a WHM you have that right to ask, but you shoudl automatically assume that your gonna get refresh because that is a part of our job, not the whole thing. And down-time will always be there with or w/o refresh, yeah you might get to chain 7 but what happens when hing run low and no more MP for refresh? And if the battle get to hairy, use your 2hrs, im pretty thats why SE implemented them.
Quote:
Forgive me if I don't automatically assume that you are one of the few good RDM who always have it together. After I have fought with you a while, if you seem to have your act together, *then* I will give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you will get to me when you have a chance.
Most will have a set order that they have from PTing all thsoe lvls.
Quote:
I don't really see where you get off asking that everyone just assume that their RDM is on the ball before knowing them. You are asking everyone to trust that the RDM is a perfect player
Your right again, people shouldnt, but perfect player? No such thing, good yes, but perfect is hard to come by dont you think?
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unconditionally--you really have no right to get offended if people don't automatically assume this.
We get offended when a player asks for it after they have been told repeatly they theyre going to get refresh.
Quote:
I don't get offended when people ask me for Haste or Regen or whatever people want from a WHM--for the first few fights it's normal that people will talk to each other and make sure that everyone is prepared to do their job effectively. Nearly every class has a special ability or two that the party has an interest in making sure they use--and the party has a right to make sure that that player knows that they are expected to use it.
Meh
Quote:
Anyone who is so terribly offended and throws a fit at a gentle prodding as the party gets started is too highly strung to be a good party member.
Most of the time its: {Refresh}{Please}!!!!<call11><call234> Im pretty sure that not "gentle prodding" and we(the rdms) get "high strung" from the constant gentle prodding.
Quote:
Yes, pestering constantly is a bad thing. After a couple of hours and people still don't get that there is a casting time and mana cost involved--that's annoying,
Oh man, we agree on something.
Quote:
I'm with you there. But you can expect (and in my opinion have an obligation to accept gracefully) being prodded for your abilities when you are with a new group.
You actually shouldnt be, you usually set things up before you start fighting, and if you dont get thing right, you tlk it over during down time.
Sorry for the long post, fist time ive disected a we-tod's post before. ^_^ Kinda fun.
O, Personperson, your sock puppet name sucks.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 05:08:34 2005 by Kekkyojen
#138REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 03 2005 at 4:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) LMAO, why dont you run a parser with a monk and see who does more DAMAGE in the end. 50% of the damage is done by you? In your dreams. Talk about ego problems. If you did 50%, you would die every 2 battles or so, since no tank can keep that amount of hate from you.
off topic:
I put myself before a whm in the refresh cycle so I will be able to continue refreshing them and everyone else in the cycle. If I had the mp reserve of a blm and their mp recuperation rate, I could go further down the cycle without harming group dynamics. Since I don't, I have to be where I am, for the good of the group as a whole.
My refresh cycle is Pld/Rdm/Whm with Blm every other fight. I am lucky to party with a pld, blm and whm who all understand their jobs and play them to the best of their ability (and their ability is awesome). But the refresh cycle isn't my full job.
Typically, a battle goes like this:
Haste self(lowers convert wait), PALADIN VOKES, Silence(if needed), Dia II, Gravity, Refresh Pld, Slow, Paralyze, Haste Pld, Refresh self, check if any debuffs didnt stick, recast(if needed), refresh whm, Poison II, Dispel, MB, Refresh Blm(if needed), redo any debuffs that might have worn off(if needed), Refresh Pld(if needed), Haste self(if needed), etc. During this, I'm also paying attention to - is there a link? Sleep it - is anyone down on hp? Cure them - did I miss a debuff wearing message or a refresh wearing message? Fix it fast.
Not to say my job is hardest; I also have played pld, whm and blm so I know there is a lot to keep track of there too.
I'm very lucky. A group of very good players who understood the value of enfeebling went out of their way to find a rdm. Knowing what an asset they can be to a party, I go out of my way to find them when I am partying in a different job. And the level is 41 for Refesh.
A whm needs to be conversant with what mobs special attacks are based on what elements so they can help guard the party against them, buffs the party before each fight, removes debuffs used against party members, cures them and raises them if they die. Removing any one thing from this list does not make them essentially useless.
Yes! Dia is such an underrated spell, often overwritten with Bio because Bio does more damage at the start. I've done tests using both Dia and Bio against ep mobs with lots of hp, and read the battle logs using the 2 spells against IT++ mobs.
If I am doing an average of 73 damage without Dia, I will do an average of 91 damage with Dia, and I am just a taru rdm with a B sword.
If you are fighting IT++ crabs (for example), Dia can make the battle take 1/2 as long. I've watched people doing respectable damage suddenly do 3 or 4 dmg a hit if Dia wears off. Add to that scissor guard and bubble curtain, and neither your melees nor your mages are doing any damage at all.
Bio is a wonderful spell too. If your melees can hit and do respectable damage, but are taking too much damage in return, Bio is your best friend.
On Topic:
I don't get upset if someone asks for refresh. I WILL get upset if they have a macro that asks for refresh, especially if it has calls in it.
I don't have a macro with calls that says "Healz me NOW <call> 1!1!111!one!!1" (I think every whm in the world would slap me if I did, and they would be right to do so). Please don't macro something like it for Refresh. Something like this is self-defeating. After a while, it's like the boost macro with the emote, or the voke macro with a call - you either turn down the sound or tune it out.
personperson wrote:
Why exactly do you think that yourself (a RDM) has higher priority than the healer? WHM mana is the party's life; that's it, no question; whm is out of mana then everyone dies--a WHM gets low on mana and everyone has to wait between battles. RDM or PLD run out of mana and everything is OK--a bit slower, but not a terrible tragedy. WHM also use much more mana much faster than anyone else. I chalk this up to selfishness--Just the idea that because the RDM has the spell, he should cast it on himself first. I'm a WHM and if I die, then everyone dies--and still I will almost always heal the mele people first. You've got to put aside your own self-interest for the good of the whole.
I put myself before a whm in the refresh cycle so I will be able to continue refreshing them and everyone else in the cycle. If I had the mp reserve of a blm and their mp recuperation rate, I could go further down the cycle without harming group dynamics. Since I don't, I have to be where I am, for the good of the group as a whole.
My refresh cycle is Pld/Rdm/Whm with Blm every other fight. I am lucky to party with a pld, blm and whm who all understand their jobs and play them to the best of their ability (and their ability is awesome). But the refresh cycle isn't my full job.
Typically, a battle goes like this:
Haste self(lowers convert wait), PALADIN VOKES, Silence(if needed), Dia II, Gravity, Refresh Pld, Slow, Paralyze, Haste Pld, Refresh self, check if any debuffs didnt stick, recast(if needed), refresh whm, Poison II, Dispel, MB, Refresh Blm(if needed), redo any debuffs that might have worn off(if needed), Refresh Pld(if needed), Haste self(if needed), etc. During this, I'm also paying attention to - is there a link? Sleep it - is anyone down on hp? Cure them - did I miss a debuff wearing message or a refresh wearing message? Fix it fast.
Not to say my job is hardest; I also have played pld, whm and blm so I know there is a lot to keep track of there too.
personperson wrote:
Furthermore, you sound so indignant about being a 'busy' RDM with lots of other things to do. LOL. A RDMs job is to refresh. period. Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you--ever noticed why no one went out of their way to find a RDM until after 41? (or whatever the lvl is :p) If people wanted damage, they'd get a BLM, if healing a WHM--ask anyone what they want a RDM for and see what they say. Sure you have other abilities yada yada yada--but that's not why people invite you to party. And RMDs are great--don't get me wrong, I love to be in parties with them, and appreciate what you guys do. But what you guys do is Refresh--the rest is just fluff and arrogance.
I'm very lucky. A group of very good players who understood the value of enfeebling went out of their way to find a rdm. Knowing what an asset they can be to a party, I go out of my way to find them when I am partying in a different job. And the level is 41 for Refesh.
personperson wrote:
eh. I don't deny that they have other abilities--but that's just not what people want them for. Really a WHMs job *is* just Cure II--if I am low on mana that's all I cast, and low on mana or not, Cure II/I is 90% of what I cast anyway. If I stop casting Haste or Regen--people could live with that (though they wouldn't like it :p). Really Curing is the main deal. A WHM without curing is esentially useless and if for some reason I thought I had 'better things to do' or dropped the ball and forgot to cure, people would have every right to kick me from the party in disgust.
A whm needs to be conversant with what mobs special attacks are based on what elements so they can help guard the party against them, buffs the party before each fight, removes debuffs used against party members, cures them and raises them if they die. Removing any one thing from this list does not make them essentially useless.
KarmaBum wrote:
But this is a game where people party together. The DRK might appreciate having Dia so he can hit the monster a little harder. The PLD might appreciate Paralyze so he's not getting pummeled quite so fast.
Yes! Dia is such an underrated spell, often overwritten with Bio because Bio does more damage at the start. I've done tests using both Dia and Bio against ep mobs with lots of hp, and read the battle logs using the 2 spells against IT++ mobs.
If I am doing an average of 73 damage without Dia, I will do an average of 91 damage with Dia, and I am just a taru rdm with a B sword.
If you are fighting IT++ crabs (for example), Dia can make the battle take 1/2 as long. I've watched people doing respectable damage suddenly do 3 or 4 dmg a hit if Dia wears off. Add to that scissor guard and bubble curtain, and neither your melees nor your mages are doing any damage at all.
Bio is a wonderful spell too. If your melees can hit and do respectable damage, but are taking too much damage in return, Bio is your best friend.
On Topic:
I don't get upset if someone asks for refresh. I WILL get upset if they have a macro that asks for refresh, especially if it has calls in it.
I don't have a macro with calls that says "Healz me NOW <call> 1!1!111!one!!1" (I think every whm in the world would slap me if I did, and they would be right to do so). Please don't macro something like it for Refresh. Something like this is self-defeating. After a while, it's like the boost macro with the emote, or the voke macro with a call - you either turn down the sound or tune it out.
I pt with a few bad rdms as a pld. After the first two times, I just carry my own juices. Pineapple juice cost like 300 a piece at my server, and I usually carry 5 with me to xp. Mp running low, pop a juice. That will last through the fight for me to rest with my dark staff.
I pt with crazy rangers and blms for 41 levels without refresh and hey its possible then, its possible now.
You thing rdms are blowing this refresh thing way out of porportion, then start leveling a rdm to 50 to see what the fuss is all about. Thats what Im doing.
There is no greater way to understand a job then to actually experience it.
I pt with crazy rangers and blms for 41 levels without refresh and hey its possible then, its possible now.
You thing rdms are blowing this refresh thing way out of porportion, then start leveling a rdm to 50 to see what the fuss is all about. Thats what Im doing.
There is no greater way to understand a job then to actually experience it.
i'm a drk lvl 49 and i have a rdm,whm,pld and smn in my static
i'm using my abs spells every time i can and i never run out of
mp because,for some odd reasons, the rdm in my pty seems to
be able to keep refresh on everybody ... either he's the best
rdm ever or you just plainly suck. i even get haste on top of the refresh. as for the enfeebles , they are properly cast on each mob.( low mp cost and fast casting spell, should never be an excuse to not refresh) refresh is part of your job and you should do it on all jobs with mp in you pty. on a side note i always bring a few stacks of water crystals and melons to cook my own juices on the spot (i'm a team player and want to give a break to a rdm who's doing an amazing job)
i'm using my abs spells every time i can and i never run out of
mp because,for some odd reasons, the rdm in my pty seems to
be able to keep refresh on everybody ... either he's the best
rdm ever or you just plainly suck. i even get haste on top of the refresh. as for the enfeebles , they are properly cast on each mob.( low mp cost and fast casting spell, should never be an excuse to not refresh) refresh is part of your job and you should do it on all jobs with mp in you pty. on a side note i always bring a few stacks of water crystals and melons to cook my own juices on the spot (i'm a team player and want to give a break to a rdm who's doing an amazing job)
as a summoner I understand the importance of a red mage in the party because of refresh. A red mage is one of the most important people to me (double refresh is lovely) when i am acting as main healer, because it gives the ability to use blink between battles and let my tanks have some room to breath and mages the ability to feel safe. Red mages that do not know how to effectively use refresh are a major dissapointment and people that dont understand how red mages use refresh are annoying. i thank you for writing this hoping that people will read it and understand better how refresh is used.
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Personally if a Red Mage doesn't have me high on their priority list, they're gone. I know my role in the party, I do more damage than anyone else that I party with at level 68, and if you want to gimp exp in a party because you can't admit that the Black Mage needs refresh, then I'd rather not have you in my group
If you knew your job that well you would also know when to quit nuking just because you can, nuke only when you should and sit your ruddy butt down and shut up.
But I guess its up for grabs as to whether you really know your job or not.
Quote:
simply put. and i hardly see how ppl can disagree. rdm's are 2nd rate healer, 2nd rate nukers, and 3rd rate melee'rs. dont get me wrong, enfeebles that rdm have are VERY useful, thats not the main point. if you are fighting a very tough monster and your whm is out of mp, refresh em. save your party and dont be so selfish.
You know the tragedy of a thread like this is that nitwit half brains think its because we don't want to refresh our WHm.
THAT dearheart ISN'T the point.
The POINT is that most of you.. the BLM with the half brained idea its not a true fight unless he nuked through his MP so he can "refresh PLZ" or the WHM that is sitting there now after 40 with squat to really do ( don't tell me they don't..I was one and have been watching as a RDM) that see the Rdm with 60 MP while the WHM has over 600 again whining "refresh plz".
NO...its NOT our job to keep that little refresh icon on your srccen. Likes YOU, its to keep the party going at an efficient rate so exp is earned by all. THE BLM that OVER Nukes and then wants a REFRESH PLZ is just going to have to rest his unteachable little butt rather than my wasting MP on him. The Whm with plenty of MP should figure out they aren't the only person in the party.
if you learned your job in the first 40 level's at all ESPECIALLY the BLM and the WHM since I have played both then you should have LEARNED your job and LEARNED to conserve, play wisely and rest when needed. The rules don't change at 41. You only now get a little boost.
Quote:
My Black Mage is level 50, and everything that Lady Noriko said should be true. I treat Refresh as a blessing, not a right, and I leveled cooking so that I have some kind of refresh when a Red Mage doesn't throw on one me.
90% of Black Mages are morons
90% of Black Mages are morons
Amen. And you can trust me, you would be the kind of BLM I would love to work with and would do my best to help out with Refresh at any spare moment. Some of the others on this thread can tell me how "high" their character is all they want.. they still aren't worth beans for EXP play.
Quote:
BLM Need Refresh jus as much as anyone else does
Okay. I have now decided that the really sad thing is that only people that are cognative disabilities chose BLM.
You don't need it. Learn to do your job. Having done your job I feel safe in saying this.
Quote:
Simply put, this post is about RDM's ******** because they suck. Ive never been in a party where i wasnt refreshed, and if i wasnt, id get a new rdm.
Simply put...if i was in a party with an over-nuking, didn't learn his job in the first 40 lvl's like you BLM, I would get a new one. BLM should be a finesse job with plenty of MP left over at the end. Not a clod in a china shop as you seem to want to play it.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 17:49:19 2005 by Noelie
IMHO a PLD needs refresh more than any other party member including the RDM himself. A RDM refreshing themselves is nice for gauging when to refresh everyone else.
A good paladin that flashes often, and flashes MORE often with haste, and has refresh, will not need much healing from the WHM and it becomes less important for the WHM to have refresh.
What gets me, are those RDM who don't rest. Those RDM who use a sword to save up for a 300% WS. Those RDM who don't keep refresh on because they haven't been resting. Those RDM who seem to get out enfeebled by my WHM despite their 'A' in enfeebling. Those RDM who nuke before enfeebling. Etc. etc. etc. I can list a dozen other things because RDM requires the greatest amount of intelligence to be played efficiently. Unfortunately, most of the RDM out there do not live up to that standard.
Regardless of how bad a RDM is, there are two things that they always seem to be good at. They always refresh themselves, and they are generally very good at dispelling. My theory is that a RDM will haste themselves, en-x themselves, then proceed to whiff away at a monster. If a monster does defense up, the RDM will hit for 0's, and they can't have that. Dispel! If a monster does evasion up, the RDM will whiff even more, and they can't have that. Dispel!
A good paladin that flashes often, and flashes MORE often with haste, and has refresh, will not need much healing from the WHM and it becomes less important for the WHM to have refresh.
What gets me, are those RDM who don't rest. Those RDM who use a sword to save up for a 300% WS. Those RDM who don't keep refresh on because they haven't been resting. Those RDM who seem to get out enfeebled by my WHM despite their 'A' in enfeebling. Those RDM who nuke before enfeebling. Etc. etc. etc. I can list a dozen other things because RDM requires the greatest amount of intelligence to be played efficiently. Unfortunately, most of the RDM out there do not live up to that standard.
Regardless of how bad a RDM is, there are two things that they always seem to be good at. They always refresh themselves, and they are generally very good at dispelling. My theory is that a RDM will haste themselves, en-x themselves, then proceed to whiff away at a monster. If a monster does defense up, the RDM will hit for 0's, and they can't have that. Dispel! If a monster does evasion up, the RDM will whiff even more, and they can't have that. Dispel!
I didn't have time to read through the whole thread but damn. I thought I was the only rdm who got the bugged to death by ppl asking for refresh lol. Here's how I see it
To all those ppl that think that rdms only job is to refresh, SO WRONG. Gravity, Slow, Paralyze (some might say, oh well whm or blms can do Slow and Para: My answer. Shouldn't you be healing/casting other enfeeb <frost,burn etc..>).
I go between cycling and priority. Sometimes a PLD and WHM refresh wears very near the same time. PLD gets the first refresh (even if I do not have it).
No, blms do not need refresh unless they are VERY low on mana. They regain it so fast it is fairly pointless. AM MBs, you say?
I havent had a blm use AM to MB in the past 5 lvls, thus ya don't need refresh. (I nearly flipped out on a blm that asked for refresh with near full mana after he went to the pt leader and complained. Don't do that, you have a problem you talk to ME)
To this one "person" who doesn't think that rdm should refresh themselves first. Guess what, if we run out of mp we don't have the mana to REFRESH THE WHM.
RDMs not wanted before lvl 41. are you nuts? One word. Dispel. I never waited more than 30 mins for a pt pre 41. Ever. I still rarely have to wait more than 10 mins now.
Last note. Plz don't ask RDMs not to melee. We aren't the biggest melee (duh) but we can do a decent amount of dmg (thfs attack more often and build up more DoT but I do more dmg per hit). Generally we know if we have to back away to help heal.
That's my 2 gils worth.
<now lvl 62 rdm>
To all those ppl that think that rdms only job is to refresh, SO WRONG. Gravity, Slow, Paralyze (some might say, oh well whm or blms can do Slow and Para: My answer. Shouldn't you be healing/casting other enfeeb <frost,burn etc..>).
I go between cycling and priority. Sometimes a PLD and WHM refresh wears very near the same time. PLD gets the first refresh (even if I do not have it).
No, blms do not need refresh unless they are VERY low on mana. They regain it so fast it is fairly pointless. AM MBs, you say?
I havent had a blm use AM to MB in the past 5 lvls, thus ya don't need refresh. (I nearly flipped out on a blm that asked for refresh with near full mana after he went to the pt leader and complained. Don't do that, you have a problem you talk to ME)
To this one "person" who doesn't think that rdm should refresh themselves first. Guess what, if we run out of mp we don't have the mana to REFRESH THE WHM.
RDMs not wanted before lvl 41. are you nuts? One word. Dispel. I never waited more than 30 mins for a pt pre 41. Ever. I still rarely have to wait more than 10 mins now.
Last note. Plz don't ask RDMs not to melee. We aren't the biggest melee (duh) but we can do a decent amount of dmg (thfs attack more often and build up more DoT but I do more dmg per hit). Generally we know if we have to back away to help heal.
That's my 2 gils worth.
<now lvl 62 rdm>
I havent read any post beyond the first - it isnt worth my time.
Whenever you are in need of refresh, and the rdm in whinging about being asked; call on us bards - you will never be without, and if you are we are happy to be told so.
i mean damn, you speak as ifit is a personal insult when someone informs you that you arent doing your job. I have seen RDM's keep refresh on 5 party members and themselves, aswell as debuffs, and not lose a step. if you dont want to be a rdm, dont be a rdm.
ofcourse, there will always be morons who release refresh when down 20 mp on a dark is a waste of your own mp, but for the most part, if you arent refreshing everyone, you are lessening their oppourtunity to do their job. you are as much to blame as the dark who doesnt use their mp in the first place.
Like i said at the beginning, if i ever miss a member with ballad, i would _expect_ them to tell me right away, it is, after all, just text. get over it, get given the information, and move on.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 20:37:15 2005 by Delekii
Whenever you are in need of refresh, and the rdm in whinging about being asked; call on us bards - you will never be without, and if you are we are happy to be told so.
i mean damn, you speak as ifit is a personal insult when someone informs you that you arent doing your job. I have seen RDM's keep refresh on 5 party members and themselves, aswell as debuffs, and not lose a step. if you dont want to be a rdm, dont be a rdm.
ofcourse, there will always be morons who release refresh when down 20 mp on a dark is a waste of your own mp, but for the most part, if you arent refreshing everyone, you are lessening their oppourtunity to do their job. you are as much to blame as the dark who doesnt use their mp in the first place.
Like i said at the beginning, if i ever miss a member with ballad, i would _expect_ them to tell me right away, it is, after all, just text. get over it, get given the information, and move on.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 20:37:15 2005 by Delekii
KarmaBum wrote:
Quote:
Furthermore, you sound so indignant about being a 'busy' RDM with lots of other things to do. LOL. A RDMs job is to refresh. period. Face it, that's one of the only reason anyone wants you--ever noticed why no one went out of their way to find a RDM until after 41?
Wrong. So wrong.
I don't even like the Red Mages that much, but I think you're wrong. A Red Mage's job is to refresh, debuff, back-up cure, buff when necessary, and nuke lightly (for magic bursts mostly).
Much like people who say a Bard's job is to cast Ballad and that's it, this statement is wholly inaccurate and shows that you have absolutely no clue what that class really does. Yes, Refresh is a huge - arguably the most important - part of the RDM's job, but there's a lot more going on besides just /ma "Refresh" <t> - just like there's a lot more going on for WHMs than just /ma "Cure II" <t>, or PLDs /ja "Provoke" <bt>.
I wanted to back this persons' point up..
RDM does:
Refresh 3-4 people
Cast Dia II, Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Bio(depending on mob)
Cast Dispel when needed
Split haste with WHM if needed
MB
If /WHM they remove status if need.
Now unless I'm blind as hell, I see them doing alot of things in my logs.
ALL of the above gets repeated in a PT. And you also forget one thing... THEY OFTEN MAIN HEAL.
Ugh...
Whatever..White mages are becoming rare on everyones server. Keep it up and soon you'll have very few RDMs too.
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eh. I don't deny that they have other abilities--but that's just not what people want them for. Really a WHMs job *is* just Cure II--if I am low on mana that's all I cast, and low on mana or not, Cure II/I is 90% of what I cast anyway. If I stop casting Haste or Regen--people could live with that (though they wouldn't like it :p). Really Curing is the main deal. A WHM without curing is esentially useless and if for some reason I thought I had 'better things to do' or dropped the ball and forgot to cure, people would have every right to kick me from the party in disgust.
Haha. Let me tell you what white mages do.
Post41 duties
Haste 3-4 People.
Regen Tank/puller/dark(yes, I love you guys and your souleater:P)
Spamming ANY status cure in EVERY battle.
Buffs, every 30 minutes. And STATUS/ELEMENTAL buffs for certain mobs.
We lose enfeebling duties at 41(meaning we don't have to do it if we don't want to in a PT with an RDM. But still must keep enfeeble skill at decent lvls). That's all the RDMs domain.
The kicker though is the haste cycle. You will always be hasting, you better be using Regen. There isn't any room to be sitting on your *** and doing nothing,(unless a NIN PT..). Sorry but curing isn't all whms do.
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RDM or PLD run out of mana and everything is OK--
No..Oh god no.. If the PLD's MP is gone..the PT is in HUGE trouble.. And if RDM has no MP when this happens...-_-
You are very ignorant. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Edited, Sun Apr 3 22:56:02 2005 by Zaleshea
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