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Confessions of Gil-sellerFollow

#102 Jan 09 2005 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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1,188 posts
It really makes you think about alot of things.

These people hate doing this job just as much as we hate them doing it it seems. But the sad thing is, alot ofthem really do not have much of a choice.

:/
#103 Jan 09 2005 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
Just have one thought to add. In FFXI to make money you have to spend money, right? We all know this. Just so no one misinturprets this I mean to make money by crafting you have to invest money in it to level. Point is the SE should be taught this lesson.

Hypothetical Situation Below:

Ok so there are several hundred accounts that are gil-sellers. I'd like to know how many ppl quit the game because of gil-sellers and over prices items/ bad economy. Its a simple thing that SE should realize. IF they ban the several hundred gil sellers accounts they will be loosing money. OK so now there are no gil-sellers ruining the economy. There are no more people buying gil online and not worrying about how much money they spend on high priced items because they now cannot buy gil online. The uber high level players will realize that ppl arent buying gil online anymore and they wont be making as much profit on there crafts, camping etc. Uber players (non-gilsellers) will realize that the economy has changed and start to lower their prices accordingly.. Why?? Because They are going to be making less money on their stuff. Eventually the economy will stableize. Prices will drop to a certain extent. SE has lost alot of money from the loss of hundreds of accounts. But I bet that less people will be leaving the game. Heck some might come back. The game might be a more enjoyable place. SE might even start seeing income increase.

If I am wrong in any way or have some of this information flaud please correct me.

Thanks.

#104 Jan 09 2005 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
These people hate doing this job just as much as we hate them doing it it seems. But the sad thing is, alot ofthem really do not have much of a choice.


We cant say that with much sertinty. Unless we actually go there and evaluate living conditions and see multiple gil sellers lives we cannot judge for or against them. But It is like many people have said....how did they but a computer and internet and afford monthly payments?

Enough said.

Oh and.....good quote to remember.

Jesus said:
Quote:
There will always be rich people and there will always be poor people.


I intend no disrespect towards anyone with this quote. And I realize it may be altered or different from what appears in the bible. For the record I am not religous.

:D Brouge


Edited, Sun Jan 9 22:42:34 2005 by Brouge
#105 Jan 09 2005 at 10:45 PM Rating: Default
I think its even more sad that people are forced to work in swet shops run by atrocious companies that close up shop whenever their workers ask for a raise. These workers are forced to work in horrendous conditions for long hours for pennies. The people that the gilsellers employ are not really being forced to do hard labor, in all likelyhood the crappy nature of the job may not be that crappy for them. Provided the gilseller companies don't treat their workers poorly and eventually give them raises and raise the standard of living, one might be able to view gilsellers in a strange light in that they are doing something good for the world. Of course, that's probably not what they're doing. I also wonder though what people think about the people working to put websites like www.gilsearch.com up? They're middle men, and obviously evil in some ways, but again its just another example of putting starving people to work, so I just don't know what's right and what's wrong.
#106 Jan 10 2005 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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175 posts
"When I reported these people, I was elated at first. I have tried to contact each of them several times with no good response. I had finally gotten through and hopefully made an impact. The truth is that after a few hours I was far more conflicted about what I had done. Like most social issues, Chinese gil selling is a very complicated and nuanced. I simply cannot find it in me to hate another human being, and all of those I have talked to were friendly and engaging people that I wouldn’t mind knowing in real life."

I also felt very conflicted as I read your chat logs. Very bittersweet.
#107 Jan 10 2005 at 1:52 AM Rating: Decent
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60 posts
I have two analogies to share with you all, a penny for each.

#1- about the 'poor gillsellers getting banned and losing jobs'
This one is from "Clerks" - The construction workers working on the Death Star when it was blown up by the rebels took a risk to make money. Just like (the guy from "Clerks") being offered a job fixing the roof of a mobster's house, he turned the job down because he knew the risk. The next day, a drive by happened and the carpenter that took the job got killed... if you don't wanna get banned, don't take the risk...

#2- is buying gil wrong?
The game of Pogs™. Anyone remember it? Li'l cardboard circle things, you put them on the ground face down in a stack, then 'slam' down a slightly bigger plastic circle piece down and however many flip over, you keep. Now, when Pogs™ came out with metal 'Slammers' I bought one from the store. I went to school the next day and won some Pogs™! Lots of complaining, "You can't just buy better pieces! Thats not fair." Now, is it unfair to buy Chains of Promathia™ to do certain quests to get kool gear? Yeah, SE isn't selling the gil, but I didn't buy the Pogs™ from the Pog™ company. The gillsellers are buying the FFXI service from SE just like Toys 'R' Us bought the Pogs™ for the Pog™ company.

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy or sell gil, and I never, ever will. I'm just saying that it is a two sided coin... and there's my two cents.
-Peace
#108 Jan 10 2005 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
the simple way to get ride of gil sellers to to

A: buy some gil from a site, have a gm do it.
B: when the gil comes in go to the log to see where that person got it from. Trace it all the way back.
C: delete all accounts it ran though all the way to the source.

D: problem is disabled until the rebuild there lvl's.

Yes the gil seller get a LITTLE bit of money butthen are Stopped.

Edited, Mon Jan 10 13:42:30 2005 by drillbit
#109 Jan 10 2005 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
That seems so obvious a solution, I wonder what is stopping them?
#110 Jan 10 2005 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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145 posts
Religion and botting¡KI¡¦m sorry I had to ask. I was going to start a new thread but decided not to. However if I don't get some decent answers I will.

I know this is a really dumb topic, but I don¡¦t know anywhere else to ask this question. I don¡¦t want this to become one of those religious threads and get totally out of hand.

Two of my friends are very religious people and used to be botters until they quit. It¡¦s cheating because it¡¦s against the EULA. That¡¦s a fact. Now I don¡¦t know everything about religion, but I¡¦m sure there¡¦s something written against cheating. So then why did they do that? Maybe God doesn¡¦t care about games? I¡¦d like to hear some comment from religious botters if possible. I'm sorry if this has been brought up before and I missed it.
#111 Jan 10 2005 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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3,383 posts
puzzlefite wrote:

I know this is a really dumb topic, but I don¡¦t know anywhere else to ask this question. I don¡¦t want this to become one of those religious threads and get totally out of hand.

Two of my friends are very religious people and used to be botters until they quit. It¡¦s cheating because it¡¦s against the EULA. That¡¦s a fact. Now I don¡¦t know everything about religion, but I¡¦m sure there¡¦s something written against cheating. So then why did they do that? Maybe God doesn¡¦t care about games? I¡¦d like to hear some comment from religious botters if possible. I'm sorry if this has been brought up before and I missed it.


Not only a dumb topic, but also a dumb question. Religion is the most hypocritical entity in the universe. There's your answer.
#112 Jan 10 2005 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
Here's some questions to go along with your question:

Why would the uber-sellers lower their prices? There are now fewer people actually generating goods in the economy - remember, gil-sellers farm/mine/craft/fish etc. themselves. With fewer people producing these goods, the demand for them will rise. If you want to look at the causes of inflation in MMORPG's, you may want to do a bit more research: it isn't because of gil-sellers.

Are the number of people who quit because of the gil-sellers smaller than the number of people who only continue to play because they can buy gil? Are people quitting, rather, because it is so hard to progress in the game without a massive time-sink, that games with faster reward-cycles - WoW, CoH - become attractive? Is (the equivalent of) gil-buying an equal problem in all games?

There are very good objections against gil-selling: it can ultimately lead to a "Magic"/card-game scenario, where people with real-world incomes have an unfair advantage against people without them. Currently, the people without real-world commitments have an advantage over people with them (in terms of the free time to play in the game) but at least that's consistent with a closed model of the game/reward system. And, after all, this isn't a competitive game - though if that's the case, then the first objection against advantage is questionable. (And difference in free time probably has much deeper effects on the in-game economy than the gil-sellers do.) Another valid objection may be that gil-sellers are not invested in the goals that others in the game are - they don't care about the plot, or the beauty of the place. Of course, that could be said of many power-levellers too.

This is not an easy question. It ends up becoming a question of game design, and people like the designers and theorists who hang out at [link=http:/terranova.blogs.com]Terra Nova[/link] are discussing this (at a much more informed and sophisticated level than most forums can) at length. One issue is that of demand: why do people buy gil? Has SE made the gil-earning process so not-fun, such a punishment, that it isn't it's own reward? If earning gil is significantly less fun than just buying it, does that mean that it is masochistic to play? Would a game design that made earning gil more fun than spending money to buy it significantly reduce the problem? These questions cut to the heart of what is fun and attractive about MMORPG's themselves. T

Brouge wrote:
Ok so there are several hundred accounts that are gil-sellers. I'd like to know how many ppl quit the game because of gil-sellers and over prices items/ bad economy. Its a simple thing that SE should realize. IF they ban the several hundred gil sellers accounts they will be loosing money. OK so now there are no gil-sellers ruining the economy. There are no more people buying gil online and not worrying about how much money they spend on high priced items because they now cannot buy gil online. The uber high level players will realize that ppl arent buying gil online anymore and they wont be making as much profit on there crafts, camping etc. Uber players (non-gilsellers) will realize that the economy has changed and start to lower their prices accordingly.. Why?? Because They are going to be making less money on their stuff. Eventually the economy will stableize. Prices will drop to a certain extent. SE has lost alot of money from the loss of hundreds of accounts. But I bet that less people will be leaving the game. Heck some might come back. The game might be a more enjoyable place. SE might even start seeing income increase.

If I am wrong in any way or have some of this information flaud please correct me.

Thanks.

#113 Jan 10 2005 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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65 posts
Quote:

Let's read carefully over the first sentence there. Are you implying that we should sacrifice some degree of our fun (note: I'm not being extreme here and saying we should stop having fun) so these people can live better? It's an honest question there, actually.

Secondly, the second is something of an extreme example. I've noticed that anyone who has the funds to acquire a peacock charm, or rather do it within a reasonable time limit don't complain much about gil sellers; your high level crafters, your people who do HNM runs / dynamis.

In addition to that, I don't think these people are trying to be "uber" (in some cases, anyway), in some cases they're trying to afford one or two pieces of equipment (admittedly pricey -- Sniper's Ring, Haubergeon, etc.) that are driven higher by the economy (gil sellers / buyers aren't the ONLY problem, but they are a notable enough one)

Finally, I won't deny that Americans in many cases (if not 99%) do have a higher standard of living than most of these people. But your post almost holds the dangerous implication that life is good, we don't have to work hard, etc. etc. Some of your FF population are in fact the people who don't have to worry much about anything aside from school and their social lives (I'm not picking on these people, just noting that). Then you have the people who have to juggle school and a job (in some cases two) in order to support themselves. Don't they have the right to play this game without the hassle of these people?



You are right. I have sterotyping here. Not all NA players are uber seekers, or having easy life.

For the first sentence question, I do have personal view that spending hours, and lying to someone trusted you, to hunt down someone who just make a life out of your fun is a bit ugly. I do sympathy to some of the gil-sellers, though they did have negative impact on majority of the players.

There are a lot of methods proposed here about how to hunt the gil-sellers, I do not like with earning someone's trust and stab at the back method. It is not that it is wrong, it just that so-called "evil" method is usually a source of social disorder, ie. If you started to act dishonest, someone else will started to act dishonest to survive better. And I do believe that all honest society works better than all dishonest society. Think about when you shop Best Buy, there are 10 security guards watching at you and you pay for their salaries from the buying their products.

Whether like it or not, the society is always control by the rich class, more or less. They always hunt down a way to cheat. Think of real life, the company entity pays only 15% tax, while you as individual pay 30% tax. That's how the CEOs pay their houses or cars. And you never complaint about these real life cheaters who hurt you much harder than gil-sellers. And believe that it is right because complay with the laws. What is laws then? And who makes the laws? In democratic society, people never really involve in making the laws, it is the rich class. And "People making the laws in democratic society" is the illusion these rich people gave to you.

This probably for some people is quite depressing. But the society is always works in a balance way. If they gone too far, the society will create a new balance. I.e. SE will take more rigorous actions, players will hunt them like crazy.















#114 Jan 10 2005 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Here's some questions to go along with your question:

Why would the uber-sellers lower their prices? There are now fewer people actually generating goods in the economy - remember, gil-sellers farm/mine/craft/fish etc. themselves. With fewer people producing these goods, the demand for them will rise. If you want to look at the causes of inflation in MMORPG's, you may want to do a bit more research: it isn't because of gil-sellers.

Are the number of people who quit because of the gil-sellers smaller than the number of people who only continue to play because they can buy gil? Are people quitting, rather, because it is so hard to progress in the game without a massive time-sink, that games with faster reward-cycles - WoW, CoH - become attractive? Is (the equivalent of) gil-buying an equal problem in all games?

There are very good objections against gil-selling: it can ultimately lead to a "Magic"/card-game scenario, where people with real-world incomes have an unfair advantage against people without them. Currently, the people without real-world commitments have an advantage over people with them (in terms of the free time to play in the game) but at least that's consistent with a closed model of the game/reward system. And, after all, this isn't a competitive game - though if that's the case, then the first objection against advantage is questionable. (And difference in free time probably has much deeper effects on the in-game economy than the gil-sellers do.) Another valid objection may be that gil-sellers are not invested in the goals that others in the game are - they don't care about the plot, or the beauty of the place. Of course, that could be said of many power-levellers too.

This is not an easy question. It ends up becoming a question of game design, and people like the designers and theorists who hang out at Terra Nova are discussing this (at a much more informed and sophisticated level than most forums can) at length. One issue is that of demand: why do people buy gil? Has SE made the gil-earning process so not-fun, such a punishment, that it isn't it's own reward? If earning gil is significantly less fun than just buying it, does that mean that it is masochistic to play? Would a game design that made earning gil more fun than spending money to buy it significantly reduce the problem? These questions cut to the heart of what is fun and attractive about MMORPG's themselves. T


You have a very nice point that I like. Specifically, "what is fun and attractive about MMORPG's themselves". I asked myself this question and heres my answer. I enjoys getting a reward for working hard and learning to strategies. I enjoy finding new ways to get things. I enjoy the fantasy environment of the RPG and MMORPG(FFXI being my first) and like a challenge. Just reminiscing about my past I remember FFVII and I remember myself climbing up and down the glacier wall for long periods of time leveling cloud and the gang so I could fight the boss at the top of the glacier. I remember this being alot of work and very tiring. But I guess in the end I was happy of what I had accomplished.

I suppose gil-sellers cant be blamed for high prices in its entirety.

I stand corrected. :D

#115 Jan 10 2005 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
wow - touching story - this is kind of amazing

i myself did think they WERE just trying to **** us off

i do not appreciate what they do, but i realize now that this is their JOB

that's amazing, im 14 and I CANT LIVE ON $30 A DAY!
#116 Jan 10 2005 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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79 posts
I think this thread is a beautiful shift from what I've been reading up on lately.. it goes into the 'social' aspect, not only in FFXI, but modern day society and marketing. This year I've been studying Globalization.. and this look at it, through something that I love to do in my free time.. it's incredible, and it's sad in a way. The world just shrunk that much more. That bubble of ignorance that you live in thinned.

Thanks for this, it's a look into the perspective of someone I would not have seen otherwise, since I know no Chinese.. I dunno. Thanks for this reflection, it was beautifully written. If nothing else, it's a POV piece, which is something no one can argue with. :>
#117 Jan 10 2005 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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558 posts
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1105085370154372636

My encounter with a GM and we talked about SE policies and gilsellers. with Kwayzar. ^^
#118 Jan 10 2005 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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97 posts
great thread

heres the thing i wouldnt report a gilseller if iwanted the item he camps i woulda camped it my self anyhow i think its enough that hes wasting his life time doing some stuiped job
7$/hr is pathatic compared to a real job and dont forget that the gilseler is selling his "REAL LIFE TIME" if he was a bot yes id report him selling gil is like selling help offering to help for gil u dont see ppl shout for limit 1 help with 50k reward? cant u convrt that 50k into $ well isnt that the same case? just think straight guys . . . some gil sellers are annoying for example? 3 galkas camping outpost lumber non stop
and 2 galka's camping gusgenmines nonstop i cant mine or lodge in the best places . . .
#119 Jan 11 2005 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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66 posts
very intriguing, I must say... "Hello Kiyokatsu, it is I, GM Ezramin." hahaha, the very first GM who flaunted his job.
#120 Jan 12 2005 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
For all that have been said and done....
If there is no demand....there will no supply same goes for;
If theres no gils buyer than gils selling will stop.

Needs both hands to clap.

My 2 gils worth
#121 Jan 12 2005 at 7:42 AM Rating: Decent
To be honest i do feel kinda sorry for them in the sense that they will more than likely loose there jobs but also your right in saying they shouldnt be doing it then again you should ask yourselves why is this happening???

Cus is so damn hard to make gil on the game thats why. If it was easier to make gil they wouldnt ahve so much business in the 1st place would they?. Look at it from a noobs point of view... uve just strtd the game as a lvl 1 char by the time u get to lvl 10 u still have ***** equip n crnt afford jak cus its still kinda hard to crystal farm at that lvl. So straight away u have to be a ff fan to even like the game.

If ur new to these p2p games it wont imerse u cus it just to hard to get gud stuff ur literally killin everything in sight (which aint to fun considerin its point and clik not real time) so ur waitin 4 ur char to defeat enimes while ur doin jack. That aint really gona get new players into it is it? not after they have to do it day in day out until they can even get to dunes which even then aint gud 4 them unless they know sum1 int he game cus there aint no sense of direction i mena look u crnt even do many quests until ut like lvl 20 the 1st few quests liek in sandy by quest 1.3 u hve to be about lvl 12 (ie sandy quest save the children) so until then ur just runin round killin stuff.

Dont get me wrong i dont condone selling items but instead of being angry at them u should say to ur self if it was easy to get they wudnt sell it so unless they make it abit simpler for ppl to get gil for noobs then this will continue to happen.
#122 Jan 12 2005 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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823 posts
meh, I feel no pity for them what so ever. Yeah sure China may have it harsh oever there as far as a job goes and the job market. But they know every well that there actions against the TOS. That's why they avoid you. Stop all of the, defending of it already. A gillie is someone I hate and will continue to hate. Maybe I am narrow minded, but while it is a job for them, I pay for my account and my playtime in this game, and if there "job" undercuts my pleasure gain from this game that I am paying for, then you know what? F there job!!
#123 Jan 12 2005 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
i aint defending it i think it is wrong but put it like this you'll neva be able to stop the selling of items in the game cus if u made gill easier to get they'd just sell rare items cheaper or summat so i guess u just gota live with it n accept that a problem like this will neva be fully stopped but can be kept to a minimum if all the ff community pulls together.
#124 Jan 22 2005 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
27 posts
Personally, I think what you are doing is just mean. You betray their trust and report them to the GM is just something I think is really mean.

These peoeple who are gil sellers are probably barely making a living and you have to go and ruin their live by calling a GM on them. Yes, gil selling is not right by Square-Enix standard. However, what they are doing is not totally bad. It is not like they are selling drugs and ruining somebody live. They are just providing a service and to make ends meet in their country. I do not see what they are doing is a crime. I read some of the post on here saying that it is "illegal". Well, it is not. It is illegal because Sqaure said it is by their License of Agreement but you do not see any lawsuit result from gil sellings. The most Square could do is cancel their account.

I am not saying gil selling is right but for you to betray their trust and turn them in is just wrong. They could be starving by now because of what you did. I hope you are happy with yourself for making somebody homeless and strave to death.

What would you rather have? Somebody who sell gil to make a decent living per day or somebody strave to death because they have no job?

#125 Jan 22 2005 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
i take my hat off to this threat, rreally sensitive and i think is the most mature post i have seen about gil sellers.
#126 Jan 22 2005 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
i take my hat off to this threat, rreally sensitive and i think is the most mature post i have seen about gil sellers.
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