I'm pretty certain that few people have ever seen a speedkill Party in action, even if you have heard the term applied.
Speedkill is a Partying strategy designed around a completely different fighting strategy than a normal XP PT. The standard XP PT setup is a heavily defensive setup: one single character (the Tank) is massively optimised to take hold and survive the hate from the target, and other Party members keep the Tank in the fight and with the hate. XP PTs prioritise hate control and survival over raw damage output.
So how does Speedkill differ? Well, for a start, throw out your notions of hate control and single tanks. The strategy for a Speedkill PT is to engage the target and cause maximum damage output in as short a space or time as possible, and then to move on to the next victim as quickly as possible. Hate can be traded between multiple PT members in melee, as it is almost impossible to assure 100% hate control in Speedkill.
The strategy of speedkill can be summed up as: Kill them before they kill us.
Jobs and their role in Speedkill:
MNK: One of the king jobs of Speedkill PTs, MNKs do high consistent damage, have the HP to survive drawing the hate, have abilities that complement occasional hate gain (Counter, Guard), and have a succession of deadly weaponskills. Chakra also aids them in negating downtime.
SAM: High TP gain, Meditate for instant TP return and Third Eye for survival when they take the hate attune SAM very well for Speedkill play. A selection of viable subjobs allow them to fill in a variety of roles at some levels.
WAR: Another job that can dish it out and take the punches when they come, WAR excel in speedkill. Subjob selection changes their individual tactics, but not their suitability for the task.
RNG: Their high damage output helps in speedkill, but RNGs tend towards a certain fragility compared to MNK, SAM & WAR. While Utsusemi is a great survival tool, it also slows down their damage output - and in a speedkill party where hate control is not a priority, they may spend more time than usual casting.
PLD: The PLD job is optimised towards Defensive prowess, and is not suited to the tactics of speedkill. Their reliance on MP also counts against them, as they require downtime that would be better avoided.
DRK: This job has a marked tendency towards high "spikes" of damage, using their attack boosting abilities to make a single massive damage assault, generally in an attempt to close a conventional fight. In speedkill Damage over time is emphasised more than Single Point Damage, which is not the DRKs forte. Their reliance on MP also hinders them in speedkill, unless fighting targets which can be Aspired for MP. Depending on your selected target, DRK may be viable for Speedkill.
DRG: DRGs are very useful in some Speedkill setups, mainly depending upon the selection of targets, and the selection of the DRGs subjob. DRG/WHM can be very effective is minimising downtime, with healing (and status healing) breaths from the wyvern. DRG weaponskills cause high damage and Lances create good damage generally. In addition, DRGs have the option to simply drop the hate if they take too much damage, via their Superjump ability.
NIN: With their ability to survive hate based on Utsusemi, NIN can work well in a speedkill party, with some possible alteration of equipment for the circumstances. NIN Dual Wield abilities give them a decently high DoT and a high enough TP gain to unleah good weaponskills. They also have the ability to unleash some high damage ranged attacks.
BRD: Probably the first choice of support class for Speedkill, BRD buffs require no MP, thus creating no downtime, consistently regenerate the entire Party and return MP to mages, increase the lethality of the Party and decrease the targets resistance to that lethality, and provide supporting healing magic.
SMN: An excellent job for use in Speedkill, SMNs buffs are exceptionally useful for reducing damage taken, and are actually enhanced by the hate-trading typical of a Speedkill Party, as such buffs as Stoneskinga & Blinkga are applied to all party members, and used by all, thus multiplying the SMNs usefulness compared to the typical single tank PT setup. In addition SMNs can (and in speedkill should) do consistent DoT with an appropriate elemental avatar, and hate gained from this essentially does not exist as far as downtime contributions go. Their MP regen passives help in reducing downtime, especially if stacked with a Refresh or Ballad effect. Support healing is also a plus provided by a SMN/WHM
WHM: Damage is an inevitable part of a fight, and Speedkill partys, which concentrate on dishing out damage over surviving it, can take a great deal. WHMs are an obviously complementary part of the party setup, especially against undead where Holy can cause very good damage. However, because unlike a regular PT setup hate is shared among the PT members, there are effectively more HP and defences before any one member is in critical condition. WHMs are nice, but not as essential as for normal partys, as the use of Curaga spells by multiple WHM subjob players can be as effective.
BLM: Speedkill tactics create a lot of opportunity for Magic Bursts and general nuking, but the less rigorous hate-keeping standards of a Speedkill party can cause issues when faced with the sheer destructive power a BLM is capable of. In addition creating Magic Bursts for Ancient Magic generally takes longer than a Speedkill party wants to spend on a fight. More than even RNGs, BLMs face the distinct possibility of killing themselves by excess hate in Speedkill. Spells such as Shock Spikes (to Stun attackers), Stun, Blink, Stoneskin (from WHM sub or SMN buffs). Once again, /WHM is useful for downtime minimisation. Aspir makes their downtime minimal against the right enemies.
RDM: With the ability to effective negate downtime with their Convert and Refresh abilities, provide some nuke damage support, good healing cover, dispel enemy buffs and take hits in the event that they draw hate (quite likely in Speedkill), RDMs make a very good choice for a Speedkill party. Depending upon subjob they can Aspir as well to keep MP at top levels, or they might be able to supplement their healing with status cures and Curagas.
THF: The main thing THFs bring to a conventional party is their supreme hate control abilities, which find less of a place in Speedkill as the placement of the mob upon a single tank is actually contrary to the prefered method of fighting - that being to trade hate to share damage among several HP pools. Depending upon subjob their DoT can remain high enough to compete. In the event that they draw hate they have the excellent passive evasion bonus abilities.
BST: Although uncommonly seen in partys at all, BSTs can do very well (even in conventional partys). One of their major advantages is something they share with SMN & DRG - that their hate is essentially divided between them and their pets. BSTs can also do very good duty at using their Charm and Calm abilities to control dangerous situations. Physically, BSTs are no slouch in terms of HP, Defence and damage output themselves.
Speedkill tactics can be summed up as fast and furious. Weaponskills and job abilities fly like fury, and skillchain effects hammer into the target often. In Speedkill it is often necessary to keep the party moving rather than camping in one spot. There is frequently no officially designated puller, with the next target simply being whatever is available. The aim for a speedkill party is to kill quickly and move on.
There are various good targets for Speedkill. Choosing a target with elemental weakness to whatever very high damage weaponskills and skillchains you can create is important, as is selecting targets according to damage type. Some of you may have seen one of the videos of a party of MNKs fighting bones and using Fusion reaching absurdly high XP chains, a classic example of Speedkill fighting.
Conclusion: Speedkill naturally favours jobs that have a balance, rather than a specialisation, in combat. Melee jobs that excel are those with both the ability to take and to receive damage. Mage jobs that can do multiple duties well shine in a Speedkill scenario.
Speedkill is outside the box for the way you may have learnt to fight in this game, but it does work, and work very well, especially for those jobs that have the required balance of traits and abilites.
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- You've heard of Manaburn: Have you heard of Speedkill?
You've heard of Manaburn: Have you heard of Speedkill?Follow
I was in a party a few weeks back that had this type of premise. 4 Thieves, a Bard, and a Black Mage. We tossed hate around while causing heavy damage with SATA. Anytime someone had TP they would throw in a SATAVB. I made a post about it at the time, but no one responded to it.
I hadn't considered multiple SA Viperbites as a possible method of Speedkill, interesting supplement. I imagine that the evasion bonus traits kept damage taken reasonably low?
7 posts
ninja/rng/rng/rng/rng/brd~ that's all i gotta say static pt from 25-30 in one day
Lithiani wrote:
I hadn't considered multiple SA Viperbites as a possible method of Speedkill, interesting supplement. I imagine that the evasion bonus traits kept damage taken reasonably low?
3 of us subbed Ninja. In theory damage should not have been an issue, however, the 4th thief kept using Gust Slash, and couldn't hit SATA. It kept throwing off the timing and caused the death of the Bard after about an hour. We broke after that.
If you have 4 Thieves, who know what they are doing and subbing Ninja, I don't think damage would be and issue at all.
(This is all provided you are fighting mobs with no shadow killing AoE attacks, which we were.)
I have one question: How high does it work.
I have no doubt in the premise of decimating mobs before they kill you. Simply in avoiding unnecessary links/aggro.
I have no doubt in the premise of decimating mobs before they kill you. Simply in avoiding unnecessary links/aggro.
RNG RNG RNG RNG RNG WHM can generate insane amounts of EXP, I know because I've done it. Unlike BLMs RNGs don't have to rest, so there's basicly no downtime. The way it works is the RNGs spread out and start firing, when one RNG gets hate he stops firing and the mob looses interest in seconds and go after another RNG who does the same thing. Utsusemi soaks up any few hits you take untill it goes after somone else. Chain 6 on IT+ is common and chain 7 is possible, the main problem is not downtime (there is basicly none), it's running out of mobs. You don't need a tank in this setup at all.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 03:27:03 2005 by Lobivopis
Edited, Sat Feb 12 03:27:03 2005 by Lobivopis
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
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The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
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I thought of it first:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
Rng/ninx5 Brd/whm
minuetx2 = whee
minuetx2 = whee
anyone got a video of this
3MNK WHM, BLM, BRD parties in KRT. Nuff said 
I could see this happening with dual ninja tanks. Ninjas do a decent amount of damage, and if they're good enough they won't need a white mage, the black mage could just concentrate on healing and hitting magic bursts when needed. It's possible, but there are any number of things that could make this go awry, such as status effects which the BLM can't cure.
You would also want to run this like a ranger party, where they chain T-VT mobs and drop them in about 45 seconds each, as opposed to BLM parties which (can) chain 5-7 IT mobs before having to sit down to rest to full.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 05:39:10 2005 by Dezzimal
You would also want to run this like a ranger party, where they chain T-VT mobs and drop them in about 45 seconds each, as opposed to BLM parties which (can) chain 5-7 IT mobs before having to sit down to rest to full.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 05:39:10 2005 by Dezzimal
If I may venture to tell some of my thoughts about what happens to the support jobs in "speedkill:"
GENERAL TACTICS
Ah yes, this is what my static calls "fast and furious." We love it, and we do it whenever we can get a PT that is openminded, skilled and set-up to handle it. This is an excellent, fun and totally envelope bending way to play. Everyone should do this at least once. Allyssa (my static's NIN) did this one day in the Crawler's Nest with DRK/WAR, RNG/NIN, NIN/RDM (Ally), BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM and WHM/SMN (me, wish I'da been WHM/RDM that day). We got 4K an hour with this set-up, no problems. We could have hit 5K, but there just weren't enough mobs since there was another PT killing off Nest Beetles and Doom Scorpions. Speedkill PTs go through mobs faster than regular PTs and mob depletion becomes a very real "downtime" issue, choosing an area/camp carefully is quite important. All in all the night's XPing was fantastic- furious, fast-paced and exhilarating. I only saw two vokes the entire night, both to pull something off in an emergency. We simply let the hate fall where it wished.
If you follow the "everyone is puller/mobile death squad" tactic then ensure that everyone has "pull macro" and uses it. Try to keep the group within sight (though not necessarily together) and make sure that everyone comes in to kill the most recently aquired target. Links can still be deadly in this kind of set-up, though frequently they just add more fuel to the fire by letting the mages unleash the potential in the some rarely used -ga spells and essentailly become a situation in which you have "gotten to the next victim" faster ^^.
Also- you might want to rotate resting cycles. Everyone has seen a PT of 5 do what a PT of 6 can. This is also true of speedkill. If one member drew too much hate from a particularly vicious spree of violence- have them rest out one fight and then get back in on it. In this way the speedkill PT shows its more "spread" and "balanced" nature again. Rather than having specialized healing and fighting times- both occur simultaneously. If one person drops in the red- let everyone else keep up the carnage while that one person sits it out for a fight or two. Eventually you might all have to rest- but this will happen much more rarely.
JOB SPECIFICS (the meat of what I see happening to the support and tank team in a speedkill PT)
These are my personal feelings on some specific jobs. Since I am a WHM, I am more experienced in the Tank/Heal/Support side of the PT, not the Damage/Skillchain/Burst side. Here is how I see "my side of the PT" modify itself for a speedkill XP session:
NIN in speedkill: NIN/RDM and NIN/BLM work excellently in this kind of set-up. As Lithani mentioned- balance is great in speedkill, and NIN have it. The massive amount of DMG a NIN can dish out with their elemental wheel is astounding, and a skillchain versed PT can coordinate such that the NIN ends the wheel to debuff the mob for an upcoming skillchain. Exceptional PTs that are well skilled can also free-for-all their skillchaining, with each member working out a viable SC with any/every other member who has TP at any given. If the PT knows their way around the chart well enough- this can be stunning. You may cry at teh beauty of it all. Prepare to spend an amount of cash on Nijutsu tools that would make a gun ranger cry ^^. NIN/RDM is particularly nice b/c they add one more "low MP pool" back-up healer. The low low MP pool is okay because it is more easily refilled with refresh/ballad and if it draws some additional agro- who cares?
WHM in speedkill: My personal choice? Get out your Hammer and use it- every little bit helps. Following the general rule of difuse job roles- get some melee and DMG in your portfolio! WHM is absolutely less necessary in a speedkill PT. Mobs simply die so quickly that a RDM, or XXX/WHM can often keep up with the healing. However- Curaga can be a powerful hate tool for the WHM. I very frequently and effectively used my Curaga spells in this kind of a set-up (they are vastly more MP efficient when many people are hurt, which they will be). When I did, I usually pulled an astounding amount of hate from the mob... however a combination of good WHM DEF equipment in a macro (Divine Breastplate, Cmbt. Caster Slacks, Red Cap, spell interruption down gear, etc...), WHM buffs (stoneskin/blink/aquaveil), and the speed at which the mob was killed and the relative toughness of the mob allowed me to tank the monsters very effectively. Speedkill is often more focused (in my experience) on grinding through whatever is in your path as quickly as possible. Thus, our speedkill target aqusition rule is: if it is EM or over- kill it. The fact that the mob was often high T to high VT also helped me shoulder my share of the tanking. In the PT mentioned above I probably ended up with 1/5 of the tanking duties (I am serious). I was able to keep up MP by using Curagas (way MP efficient), using Regens (also MP efficient and since hate and DMG was not concentrated on one or two people they have more time to work) and taking the hits myself (my auto-regen, and what resting time I did get in made for a lot of HP I never healed, also my buffs prevented way more DMG than an equivalent amount of curing).
PLD in speedkill: Use Berserk- yes, you heard me- berserking freaking Paladin. In Speedkill your DEF is much less important, hate will bounce around like a ping-pong ball and you'll be most effective if you can dish out enough DMG to take the hate occassionally. Cover becomes very valuable to get some DMG spread out onto you even if you can't draw hate. Your traditional methods will likely not keep up with a DRK, RNG and BLM all letting it all loose. Though I have yet to see it, I imagine Great Sword would be a great weapon for the speedkill PLD. Think about it- in speedkill things die quickly and violently enough that DRKs, MNKs, SAMs and DRGs can tank effectively as the hate bounces around. High DMG and moderate tanking ability is sufficient in this PT set-up because everyone spreads the tanking duties. Thus to bring yourself into a bloody harmony with this model, lower your DEF and raise your ATT. You have the advantage of being able to drop berserk and do your more traditional routine if you happen to accumulate a ton of hate. Also, bring along the meat! ATT or ACC food is great, not some girly seafood dish. Your DEF is perfectly adequate post-berserk. (Remember DRKs liberally using Soul Eater, Last Resort ~and~ Berserk up will be tanking- if they can do it...you easily can). Go for it- unleash the divine fury. Also- in the speedkill PT, you'll be as much main healer as anyone, and healing will still be a major avenue to get hate. In the same way that the hate and DMG get spread more evenly, the healing and MP use does as well- this allows the MP that is coming in from refresh or, more particularly, ballad to get spread and utilized well. You will use less MP than a traditional PT, so cure enough that the MP regen can sorta keep up and keep killing. Maces might be a viable weapon to get the MP from Starlight or Moonlight and save some more downtime (dunno, never seen it). I would love to see someone experiment w/ PLD/WHM in this setting- using Divine Seal and Curagas to get hate... I am not recommending it yet- but I see real possibilty in this combo, or maybe even Great Sword PLD/MNK (harder hits + boost, more HP and STR, plus Counter if this kinda of "DMG PLD" can get hate from a DRK or DRG).
RDM in speedkill: Get in the melee, use your en-spells, 'nuf said. Try to keep refresh up as well, of course. Debuffing in general is less vital than nuking. Mobs die quickly enough that debuffing them fully is sometimes a waste of your MP. Very fast debuffs are great here, because they are outta the way and you keep swinging and nuking. Dia, Poison, Blind and Paralyze are my favorites. They cast fast, take less MP and let you get on with DMG dealing as best you know how. Long cast time/high MP debuffs like the elemental debuffs or gravity are often wasted on the mob. The poor mob is simply not around long enough for you to really get good milage out of them ^^. As WHM/BLM in this kind of set-up the mob was often 90% dead by the time I was done with a full white and black magic de-buff cycle. RDM/WAR (for voke to get hate and harder hits, etc.) is a much more viable choice here, as is RDM/NIN (though I would guess less so w/o some "dual wield enhancement", probably meaning a sarashi pre-50).
BRD in speedkill: If everyone else is in the melee- you should be too- no more running to the back-lines and the front lines. Paeon is much more effective- since everyone will be taking hits, it regens much more pound for pound. Ballad can be this way too if you PT is MP heavy (BLM RDM DRK PLD NIN/BLM BRD, say). Other than that spur everyone on to greater acts of carnage with DMG facilitating songs. Really though- BRD doesn't play too much differently in speedkill.
THF in speedkill: Everyone is a potential SATA buddy ^^. If hate isn't gettiong spread enough- spread it yourself. This will of course take a fluid and communicating PT as you announce who you wish the SATA buddy to be.
CONCLUSION
Lithani's general model that the speedkill PT is more balanced and less specialized applies to the support and tanking jobs as well. I hope you all got the idea that in a speedkill PT healing and support generally comes from several shallower MP pools that are more easily kept topped up than one or two deep MP pools that are constantly nutured with resting. This is exactly paralell to Lithani's statement that speedkill tanking means sharing hate and DMG among HP pools. Again, it is a more spread and balanced PT dynamic. Just as the tanking burden is shared, so to the support.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:11:30 2005 by Kiyokatsu
GENERAL TACTICS
Ah yes, this is what my static calls "fast and furious." We love it, and we do it whenever we can get a PT that is openminded, skilled and set-up to handle it. This is an excellent, fun and totally envelope bending way to play. Everyone should do this at least once. Allyssa (my static's NIN) did this one day in the Crawler's Nest with DRK/WAR, RNG/NIN, NIN/RDM (Ally), BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM and WHM/SMN (me, wish I'da been WHM/RDM that day). We got 4K an hour with this set-up, no problems. We could have hit 5K, but there just weren't enough mobs since there was another PT killing off Nest Beetles and Doom Scorpions. Speedkill PTs go through mobs faster than regular PTs and mob depletion becomes a very real "downtime" issue, choosing an area/camp carefully is quite important. All in all the night's XPing was fantastic- furious, fast-paced and exhilarating. I only saw two vokes the entire night, both to pull something off in an emergency. We simply let the hate fall where it wished.
If you follow the "everyone is puller/mobile death squad" tactic then ensure that everyone has "pull macro" and uses it. Try to keep the group within sight (though not necessarily together) and make sure that everyone comes in to kill the most recently aquired target. Links can still be deadly in this kind of set-up, though frequently they just add more fuel to the fire by letting the mages unleash the potential in the some rarely used -ga spells and essentailly become a situation in which you have "gotten to the next victim" faster ^^.
Also- you might want to rotate resting cycles. Everyone has seen a PT of 5 do what a PT of 6 can. This is also true of speedkill. If one member drew too much hate from a particularly vicious spree of violence- have them rest out one fight and then get back in on it. In this way the speedkill PT shows its more "spread" and "balanced" nature again. Rather than having specialized healing and fighting times- both occur simultaneously. If one person drops in the red- let everyone else keep up the carnage while that one person sits it out for a fight or two. Eventually you might all have to rest- but this will happen much more rarely.
JOB SPECIFICS (the meat of what I see happening to the support and tank team in a speedkill PT)
These are my personal feelings on some specific jobs. Since I am a WHM, I am more experienced in the Tank/Heal/Support side of the PT, not the Damage/Skillchain/Burst side. Here is how I see "my side of the PT" modify itself for a speedkill XP session:
NIN in speedkill: NIN/RDM and NIN/BLM work excellently in this kind of set-up. As Lithani mentioned- balance is great in speedkill, and NIN have it. The massive amount of DMG a NIN can dish out with their elemental wheel is astounding, and a skillchain versed PT can coordinate such that the NIN ends the wheel to debuff the mob for an upcoming skillchain. Exceptional PTs that are well skilled can also free-for-all their skillchaining, with each member working out a viable SC with any/every other member who has TP at any given. If the PT knows their way around the chart well enough- this can be stunning. You may cry at teh beauty of it all. Prepare to spend an amount of cash on Nijutsu tools that would make a gun ranger cry ^^. NIN/RDM is particularly nice b/c they add one more "low MP pool" back-up healer. The low low MP pool is okay because it is more easily refilled with refresh/ballad and if it draws some additional agro- who cares?
WHM in speedkill: My personal choice? Get out your Hammer and use it- every little bit helps. Following the general rule of difuse job roles- get some melee and DMG in your portfolio! WHM is absolutely less necessary in a speedkill PT. Mobs simply die so quickly that a RDM, or XXX/WHM can often keep up with the healing. However- Curaga can be a powerful hate tool for the WHM. I very frequently and effectively used my Curaga spells in this kind of a set-up (they are vastly more MP efficient when many people are hurt, which they will be). When I did, I usually pulled an astounding amount of hate from the mob... however a combination of good WHM DEF equipment in a macro (Divine Breastplate, Cmbt. Caster Slacks, Red Cap, spell interruption down gear, etc...), WHM buffs (stoneskin/blink/aquaveil), and the speed at which the mob was killed and the relative toughness of the mob allowed me to tank the monsters very effectively. Speedkill is often more focused (in my experience) on grinding through whatever is in your path as quickly as possible. Thus, our speedkill target aqusition rule is: if it is EM or over- kill it. The fact that the mob was often high T to high VT also helped me shoulder my share of the tanking. In the PT mentioned above I probably ended up with 1/5 of the tanking duties (I am serious). I was able to keep up MP by using Curagas (way MP efficient), using Regens (also MP efficient and since hate and DMG was not concentrated on one or two people they have more time to work) and taking the hits myself (my auto-regen, and what resting time I did get in made for a lot of HP I never healed, also my buffs prevented way more DMG than an equivalent amount of curing).
PLD in speedkill: Use Berserk- yes, you heard me- berserking freaking Paladin. In Speedkill your DEF is much less important, hate will bounce around like a ping-pong ball and you'll be most effective if you can dish out enough DMG to take the hate occassionally. Cover becomes very valuable to get some DMG spread out onto you even if you can't draw hate. Your traditional methods will likely not keep up with a DRK, RNG and BLM all letting it all loose. Though I have yet to see it, I imagine Great Sword would be a great weapon for the speedkill PLD. Think about it- in speedkill things die quickly and violently enough that DRKs, MNKs, SAMs and DRGs can tank effectively as the hate bounces around. High DMG and moderate tanking ability is sufficient in this PT set-up because everyone spreads the tanking duties. Thus to bring yourself into a bloody harmony with this model, lower your DEF and raise your ATT. You have the advantage of being able to drop berserk and do your more traditional routine if you happen to accumulate a ton of hate. Also, bring along the meat! ATT or ACC food is great, not some girly seafood dish. Your DEF is perfectly adequate post-berserk. (Remember DRKs liberally using Soul Eater, Last Resort ~and~ Berserk up will be tanking- if they can do it...you easily can). Go for it- unleash the divine fury. Also- in the speedkill PT, you'll be as much main healer as anyone, and healing will still be a major avenue to get hate. In the same way that the hate and DMG get spread more evenly, the healing and MP use does as well- this allows the MP that is coming in from refresh or, more particularly, ballad to get spread and utilized well. You will use less MP than a traditional PT, so cure enough that the MP regen can sorta keep up and keep killing. Maces might be a viable weapon to get the MP from Starlight or Moonlight and save some more downtime (dunno, never seen it). I would love to see someone experiment w/ PLD/WHM in this setting- using Divine Seal and Curagas to get hate... I am not recommending it yet- but I see real possibilty in this combo, or maybe even Great Sword PLD/MNK (harder hits + boost, more HP and STR, plus Counter if this kinda of "DMG PLD" can get hate from a DRK or DRG).
RDM in speedkill: Get in the melee, use your en-spells, 'nuf said. Try to keep refresh up as well, of course. Debuffing in general is less vital than nuking. Mobs die quickly enough that debuffing them fully is sometimes a waste of your MP. Very fast debuffs are great here, because they are outta the way and you keep swinging and nuking. Dia, Poison, Blind and Paralyze are my favorites. They cast fast, take less MP and let you get on with DMG dealing as best you know how. Long cast time/high MP debuffs like the elemental debuffs or gravity are often wasted on the mob. The poor mob is simply not around long enough for you to really get good milage out of them ^^. As WHM/BLM in this kind of set-up the mob was often 90% dead by the time I was done with a full white and black magic de-buff cycle. RDM/WAR (for voke to get hate and harder hits, etc.) is a much more viable choice here, as is RDM/NIN (though I would guess less so w/o some "dual wield enhancement", probably meaning a sarashi pre-50).
BRD in speedkill: If everyone else is in the melee- you should be too- no more running to the back-lines and the front lines. Paeon is much more effective- since everyone will be taking hits, it regens much more pound for pound. Ballad can be this way too if you PT is MP heavy (BLM RDM DRK PLD NIN/BLM BRD, say). Other than that spur everyone on to greater acts of carnage with DMG facilitating songs. Really though- BRD doesn't play too much differently in speedkill.
THF in speedkill: Everyone is a potential SATA buddy ^^. If hate isn't gettiong spread enough- spread it yourself. This will of course take a fluid and communicating PT as you announce who you wish the SATA buddy to be.
CONCLUSION
Lithani's general model that the speedkill PT is more balanced and less specialized applies to the support and tanking jobs as well. I hope you all got the idea that in a speedkill PT healing and support generally comes from several shallower MP pools that are more easily kept topped up than one or two deep MP pools that are constantly nutured with resting. This is exactly paralell to Lithani's statement that speedkill tanking means sharing hate and DMG among HP pools. Again, it is a more spread and balanced PT dynamic. Just as the tanking burden is shared, so to the support.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:11:30 2005 by Kiyokatsu
ThePalace wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a normal party?..
Or have I just had too much luck on the good party front? ^^;;
I mean some of the replies are more specific, but the OP lists all 15 jobs as viable... <.<
I don't think theres many, if any, combinations that out exp 5 RNGs, or 5 BLM, and a BRD
Edited, Sat Feb 12 05:21:28 2005 by ThePalace
Or have I just had too much luck on the good party front? ^^;;
I mean some of the replies are more specific, but the OP lists all 15 jobs as viable... <.<
I don't think theres many, if any, combinations that out exp 5 RNGs, or 5 BLM, and a BRD
Edited, Sat Feb 12 05:21:28 2005 by ThePalace
There's a video somewhere around of a PT with 3 (or maybe 4) MNKs hitting chain 14 or something stupid in KRT.
The main difference in how it works is in the attitude of organising the PT. As I said in my original post, there isn't any serious measure put into defensively fighting, of the kind you do when you are normally XPing (that is, one tank takes all hits, everyone else trys to keep it that way), it's all about offense. Gear changes to cater for this instead of defense & hate control, and as we all know, gear is the ultimate arbeiter of capability in this game.
NIN in Speedkill is less about the maximisation of AGI and evasion and more about damage output, to make an example. Utsusemi - and recasting it - prevents damage when you draw aggro, rather than being used as the exclusive tanking tool that it normally is. It's perhaps a subtle difference, but it is an alteration of emphasis.
The top three melee jobs for this kind of PT are MNK, SAM and WAR, with DRK and DRG closely following. It's about speed and finesse as well as power.
As for RNGs... well, multi-RNG works because they can trade hate back and forth between them equally, but a RNGs biggest problem without a PLD to hold hate off them is the increased time that they spend recasting Utsusemi, which cuts into their attacking time quite a bit. Not a problem when there's another RNG. RNG of course doesn't skillchain, whereas in Speedkill you can make multiple swift Skillchains. Multi-RNG PTs are more like Manaburn, minus the resting for MP.
I remember reading a thread a while back about some groups getting really high exp chains with the same idea you are talking about. They referred to it as hate juggling, or something to that effect.
It was like... 4 rangers, a bard/whm and a blm/whm. They were killing aura statues or pots or something (I am not that high). They said that it was setup so no one really had hate for more than a shot, and the enemy didn't know what to do with aggro, it just kept bouncing from player to player.
If I could remember any more about that thread, I could search it... that's going to drive me nuts...
You've heard about Manaburn .. but what of Moneyburn!
My static consists of RNG/RNG/RNG/RNG/BRD/WHM
All RNGs sub nin, Brd subs whm, and whm subs BLM (for escape mostly) or SMN (for smn abilities and MP pool)
Things don't live fast. We went from 50-60 at about a level a day (few hours) and can get anywhere from 6-10k/hr (or less if it's a horrible day)
It's simple. RNG damage output is pretty good. They all tank the mob around. and try to keep it away form the mage and brd. The Mage is limited to Cure III max (unless situation is dire) BRD keep the Mob slowed (using Elegies) and keeps the Mage Balladed and give the RNGs Knight's Minne and Hunter's Prelude. At half health (depending on mob it can be as high as 3/4 health) We unleash anythign we want. . Barrage, Sidewinder -- Whatever. (Of course you may have to wait if you plan on doing them in sucession, otherwise you'll get so much hate a Benediction can't pull it off .... I know .... )
Of course this limmits the mobs availble. We can't very well take mobs that destroy blinks easily .. the one exception were the big birds in Valley of Sorrow.
But there's obviously a reason it's called a Moneyburn PT (or Gilburn) The Shihei consumption is very high, and the arrow consumption is high too. In a 'normal' PT, The RNG usually has to hold back unless he has a great Tank (usually a PLD tank) and the RNG doesn't use even 1/10 (if less) the Shihei.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 06:58:06 2005 by Dedendre
My static consists of RNG/RNG/RNG/RNG/BRD/WHM
All RNGs sub nin, Brd subs whm, and whm subs BLM (for escape mostly) or SMN (for smn abilities and MP pool)
Things don't live fast. We went from 50-60 at about a level a day (few hours) and can get anywhere from 6-10k/hr (or less if it's a horrible day)
It's simple. RNG damage output is pretty good. They all tank the mob around. and try to keep it away form the mage and brd. The Mage is limited to Cure III max (unless situation is dire) BRD keep the Mob slowed (using Elegies) and keeps the Mage Balladed and give the RNGs Knight's Minne and Hunter's Prelude. At half health (depending on mob it can be as high as 3/4 health) We unleash anythign we want. . Barrage, Sidewinder -- Whatever. (Of course you may have to wait if you plan on doing them in sucession, otherwise you'll get so much hate a Benediction can't pull it off .... I know .... )
Of course this limmits the mobs availble. We can't very well take mobs that destroy blinks easily .. the one exception were the big birds in Valley of Sorrow.
But there's obviously a reason it's called a Moneyburn PT (or Gilburn) The Shihei consumption is very high, and the arrow consumption is high too. In a 'normal' PT, The RNG usually has to hold back unless he has a great Tank (usually a PLD tank) and the RNG doesn't use even 1/10 (if less) the Shihei.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 06:58:06 2005 by Dedendre
Everyone seems to be equating this with a RNG RNG RNG and more RNG PT. Though this is a viable speedkill set-up, I really don't think that is the concept that Lithiani wants his/her really brilliant exposition of speedkill PT to degenerate into.
Try to think outside the box that only RNG can deal vicious DMG, think of a PT where BLMs, DRKs, MNKs and DRGs are supposed to unleash almost every last drop of fury they can possibly squeeze out at the mob.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:19:33 2005 by Kiyokatsu
Try to think outside the box that only RNG can deal vicious DMG, think of a PT where BLMs, DRKs, MNKs and DRGs are supposed to unleash almost every last drop of fury they can possibly squeeze out at the mob.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:19:33 2005 by Kiyokatsu
This does work, but it still falls far short of a manaburn or, especially, an all-RNG party. The reason is that most normal DDs don't really have to moderate their damage all that much to avoid pulling hate from the tank, so "unleash[ing] almost every last drop of fury they can possibly squeeze out at the mob" equates to more or less the exact same thing they normally do in an exp party.
What you end up with is simply a normal party setup with one more DD in place of the tank, or two if you cut out one of the support mages as well. It's faster, yes, but not by a huge margin. RNG parties work so well because RNGs have to significantly moderate their damage in normal exp parties, so "going all out" for them translates into a much, much greater increase in damage than for a normal DD.
So, if you're one of the peons--sorry, I mean non-RNGs... :b--don't expect to ever see the kind of exp numbers that a RNG party can put out, but a party like this can still be a huge amount of fun. As long as you don't go into it with the expectation that you're going to match a RNG party, you won't be disappointed, and in fact you'll probably have a fantastic time. Not really anything to complain about there. ^^
What you end up with is simply a normal party setup with one more DD in place of the tank, or two if you cut out one of the support mages as well. It's faster, yes, but not by a huge margin. RNG parties work so well because RNGs have to significantly moderate their damage in normal exp parties, so "going all out" for them translates into a much, much greater increase in damage than for a normal DD.
So, if you're one of the peons--sorry, I mean non-RNGs... :b--don't expect to ever see the kind of exp numbers that a RNG party can put out, but a party like this can still be a huge amount of fun. As long as you don't go into it with the expectation that you're going to match a RNG party, you won't be disappointed, and in fact you'll probably have a fantastic time. Not really anything to complain about there. ^^
Kiyokatsu wrote:
Everyone seems to be equating this with a RNG RNG RNG and more RNG PT. Though this is a viable speedkill set-up, I really don't think that is the concept that Lithiani wants his/her really brilliant exposition of speedkill PT to degenerate into.
Try to think outside the box that only RNG can deal vicious DMG, think of a PT where BLMs, DRKs, MNKs and DRGs are supposed to unleash almost every last drop of fury they can possibly squeeze out at the mob.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:19:33 2005 by Kiyokatsu
Try to think outside the box that only RNG can deal vicious DMG, think of a PT where BLMs, DRKs, MNKs and DRGs are supposed to unleash almost every last drop of fury they can possibly squeeze out at the mob.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:19:33 2005 by Kiyokatsu
^_^ Thank you, that's exactly what i'm on about, and then some more... it's also about using the "forgotten" abilities that a lot of jobs have but never get to really use. MNKs Guard skill, their Counter ability, Dodge and so on simply aren't used in your average XP PT, because everything is about keeping the hate on one tank - but at level 50ish MNKs break the 1k HP mark (I've seen one survive Ancient Magic), while PLDs are still back in the high 800s (race dependant). Samurai get Third Eye, A class Parrying and high evasion & AGI, but rarely get the chance to use it to its fullest extent. WAR have Defender, Passive Defence Boosts and a whole mess of HP and VIT. While none of these jobs are as good at pure tanking as a PLD, they can all take their damage, and unlike a PLD, they can dish it out as well.
One other note: Speedkill is a lot more fun than any of the other "extreme" PT setups that happen. This is perhaps just my perception as a Samurai, but when you are in full attack mode with TP build going like rockets and you are pulling 2 skillchains off in the course of a few seconds, having to time Meditate usage to break the 100% TP barrier as close as you can to your next skillchain partner getting 100% while allowing the recast timers to come back up on the bursters, it's a huge rush to hit it dead on and nail a mob with a twin Fusion rush with double magic bursts on each.
To be honest, the damage and the XP are kinda secondary, it's fun to push that line that most people play safe with, drop the safety margin of having a brick wall holding the hate and go for the all out fury and carnage of multi-skillchain Speedkill.
Edited, Sat Feb 12 07:41:52 2005 by Lithiani
What I don't get out of this is what mobs you go for. Is it still the IT+ ones for high exp on each mob, or more like constant chaining of Ts?
Very glad to see BST was mentioned favourably in the OP, now to mention it again!
A party consisting of only BSTs, and maybe a BRD or RDM is insane. EM pets excel at DoT, and will easily hold hate off the meleeing BSTs, and as long as any RDM or BRD don't do anything insane involving chain nuking and/or divine seal curaga the pets will easily tank the whole battle.
So at the end of each fight the only lost hp is that of the pets, and they can be released to heal up whilst the BSTs charm some fresh ones, and the only lost MP is that used to debuff the mob (easily covered by ballad or refresh). Quite simply there is no downtime, you're only limited by finding enough ITs.
Of course this party only works in a zone where there are EM/DC charmables and IT targets, but when it does work, it works very well.
A party consisting of only BSTs, and maybe a BRD or RDM is insane. EM pets excel at DoT, and will easily hold hate off the meleeing BSTs, and as long as any RDM or BRD don't do anything insane involving chain nuking and/or divine seal curaga the pets will easily tank the whole battle.
So at the end of each fight the only lost hp is that of the pets, and they can be released to heal up whilst the BSTs charm some fresh ones, and the only lost MP is that used to debuff the mob (easily covered by ballad or refresh). Quite simply there is no downtime, you're only limited by finding enough ITs.
Of course this party only works in a zone where there are EM/DC charmables and IT targets, but when it does work, it works very well.
Mellowy wrote:
What I don't get out of this is what mobs you go for. Is it still the IT+ ones for high exp on each mob, or more like constant chaining of Ts?
Uhhh, it tends to be more like "whatever is next closest". If you are killing at top speed what it checks is actually fairly irrelevant compared to engaging it, brutalising it and moving on.
The selection of what mob famility to target is quite a bit more important. Targetted skillchains, magic bursts and debuffs all help increase the speed of the kills. Interestingly, because you are trying to both kill faster and trade hate about, mobs with high attack and relatively low defence, like Tigers, are better than the other way around. Because taking damage (or being debuffed) reduces the hate you hold, a high damage attacker will flip more often between different members.
It's also worth noting that if you do this right, the mob should never get a TP attack off at you. Kill quickly enough and there's no chance for the mob to retaliate with such nasties as Jetsream, Rhino Attack or Sickle Slash.
i had a sort of speedkill party as you say last night
2 BLM
2 RNG
1 PLD
1 RDM
we ripped through antica like crazy :)
even wtfpwned a NM that poped with links
2 BLM
2 RNG
1 PLD
1 RDM
we ripped through antica like crazy :)
even wtfpwned a NM that poped with links
I went on this morning, and thought I'd try something new. I've done the RNGx4 BRD RDM PT's, and thought as I'm in Gustav levels I'd give MNK's a try.
After about 20 minutes we had this setup:
RDM, WHM, PLD, MNK, MNK, MNK, all 60 and 61.
We went to Gustav, headed to the normal 58-60exp spot.. Then went left to fight Skeletons.. BIG MISTAKE!.
We would've killed it, but because we kept dropping into low HP, we got links. All of us dead.
We got Raised, then headed right instead of left to where the T's / VT's are.
Because of the long pulls, I was pulling with Carbuncle and Sneak (Robber Crabs in the way).
Basicly, I'd pull, when I get back Refresh me, Dia, Slow, Refresh PLD, Paralyze, Gravity, Refresh WHM. Then I'd have to pull again. Very fast kills. If we went a few levels earlier, there's no doubt in my mind it would've been a few seconds long to kill, and almost double the exp.
But not to worry, it was an experiment, and an experiment I would love to try again when there is VT/IT Skeletons about.
Power to you Monks, you are underated, and I can't wait to PT with you more, especially after 66.
-Silent
P.s. Re-reading this, I realise it's a little off topic, but it wasn't ment to be :P
After about 20 minutes we had this setup:
RDM, WHM, PLD, MNK, MNK, MNK, all 60 and 61.
We went to Gustav, headed to the normal 58-60exp spot.. Then went left to fight Skeletons.. BIG MISTAKE!.
We would've killed it, but because we kept dropping into low HP, we got links. All of us dead.
We got Raised, then headed right instead of left to where the T's / VT's are.
Because of the long pulls, I was pulling with Carbuncle and Sneak (Robber Crabs in the way).
Basicly, I'd pull, when I get back Refresh me, Dia, Slow, Refresh PLD, Paralyze, Gravity, Refresh WHM. Then I'd have to pull again. Very fast kills. If we went a few levels earlier, there's no doubt in my mind it would've been a few seconds long to kill, and almost double the exp.
But not to worry, it was an experiment, and an experiment I would love to try again when there is VT/IT Skeletons about.
Power to you Monks, you are underated, and I can't wait to PT with you more, especially after 66.
-Silent
P.s. Re-reading this, I realise it's a little off topic, but it wasn't ment to be :P
#25REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 12 2005 at 11:41 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I see only 2 jobs perfect for speed kill, blm and rng
Great post I wish I could try but, a Qufim very few people will try fun stuff like this... Still great post.
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