You've heard of Manaburn: Have you heard of Speedkill?Follow

Hmmm. Have you ever seen a monk who gets hate? If we are decked out in all DD gear, our def is pretty low. Stuff like Sniper's Rings and TM Hooks actually have -DEF on them. Add in berserk and our def is about 1/5 that of a buffed PLD.

It seems as if you simply don't want a tank. This works for lower levels, but simply won't work at higher levels. It's a cool idea, but it doesn't work like manaburn/gilburn/bones parties do.

A tank is what ALLOWS a DD to go all out and unleash all he's got. As a monk, the damage I do is basically limited to how much hate the tank can hold. When I start taking hits, even with equip swapping, dodge, defender, and chakra, I am still an mp sink.

Manaburn/gilburn only works because of blink/stoneskin/utsusemi, and typically no healing is needed. Boouncing hate from DD-equipped MNKs, WARs, and DRKs will still require a LOT of healing, and thus downtime.

Monk bones parties are amazing because monks have a bonus against the mob type. They typically still have a PLD tank who holds hate. T-VT chaining can help things, but still will not be much (if any) faster than a regular exp party, and also be a lot more dangerous. Like you said, gear is everything, and fully decked-out DDs tend to have very low defense, so I'm not really seeing this as a viable thing past say, 40 or so.

The best way IMO to do this would be instead of replacing the tank with another DD, replace the whm and make the rdm *gasp* main heal.

The best parties I've been in have had a rdm as the main healer, debuffer, dispeller and refresher all in one. This has been with PLD's as tanks, so not just nin's taking zero damage.

Replacing the whm with a DD effectively adds that extra amount of damage to your party while losing an amount of security. This doesn't get you fighting those IT+ mobs, but honestly, chain #5 on VT IT- stuff and killing it in half the time it takes to get chain #3 on IT+ stuff is much better and efficient, with a less likely chance to die. Keep the xp over 100 per kill and your doing great.

And I keep thinking this is about Magic the Gathering....

Hahah, I was thinking the same thing. Manaburn is a bad thing, people!

Most enfeebles and DOTs should never be used either. Spells give the mob 10 tp and this is absolutely not worth it for the slight difference they make.

Jobs like THF and MNK should be avoided if possible, they just feed the mob TP like crazy.

Edited, Sat Feb 12 15:48:51 2005 by Lobivopis

My Galka MNK broke 1000 at 41 or 42 :P



True. My galka monk takes damage like a little school girl. BUT, I think the whole point of the speedkill thing is for the hate to bounce around so much that everybody WILL get hit, but not very much.

I believe this is true, but I have never seen it so don't really know. Also, from accounts I have read/heard, the only thing an all RNG PT has more of compared to an all BLM, BST or MNK PT is expenses, not XP ^^.

However all the "same job + minor support" boasting going on in the thread is kind of killing discussion and evaluation of the original post. As Silento said- his/her comment about a MNK haevy PT was kinda OT. Sure, these PTs work fantastically, I am not saying they don't and I highly endorse them. But these PTs are kind of a cousin to the speedkill PT tactics that Lithiani is trying to describe.

By the way, I have never heard of any of these being done, but I imagine that an all SAM PT (ridiculous weapon skill madness), an all THF/RNG (non-stop Ranged WS > Sneak + Viperbite/Fast Blade = Distortion, or even Fusion Ranged WS > Sneak + Combo = Fusion at some levels), or an all NIN/BLM PT (Constant Elemental Wheels + Ninjutsu weakened Ninjutsu bursting on any skillchains that occur) could play this kind of "one job" PT game as well. I was glad to hear some mention of all "all THF" version above.



Sorta. As Lithiani mentions, PT tactics and, ideally, equipment choices will change drastically from the standard PT. Also, sub-jobs can go wild a little more in this set-up RDM/WAR is great for this, NIN/BLM is fa-freakin-tastic, THF/RNG or /SAM works great, SAM/MNK or PLD/MNK would probably work swimmingly (Counter when hate bounces? Yes, please.) Lest anyone say it, I am not claiming that the standard PT doesn't work, I am simply claiming that it is not the only thing that works.



In some cases maybe, but you'll certainly admit that DRK generally don't get to toss Souleater, Last Resort and Berserk in any and every combination, and as often as humanly possible. Also, as Lithiani mentions, DDs will change their operation significantly in this kind of PT set-up bwecause they will also be co-tanking. As he/she mentioned this means that (for instance) SAM and MNK's lesser-used tanking abilites (Dodge, Counter/Counterstance, Parry, etc.) get optimized. A MNK can unleash a #!@_*#$& of a lot more fury if allowed to actually tank the mob.



Again I'll reiterate that this is true as far as I can tell. An all RNG PT going all out will outdamage all other melee DDs. However... if a PT like this used the same amount of gil in medicines, drinks, ranged attacks (grenades anyone?), etc. that an all RNG PT did in ammo and shihei- I'd lay good money that you wouldn't be able to stand on your high horse so easily RNG-boy.

As a final note about the "one job" PT, I have ask some questions:

It seems like the PT doing this long term would accelerate their short-term gain (mad XP!), while gimping their long term gain (skillups and player skills outside of the tactic). Can anyone comment on the long-term effects of addiction to the one job PT? Is the time saved by mad XP simply used in later skill-up PTs?

Has anyone ever considered an all RNG PT doing SCs? everyoen mentions how RNG can't SC together... but unless I miss my guess at high levels they really could: Blast Arrow/Blast Shot (Induration) -> Sidewinder/Slugshot (Reverberation) = Fragmentation, which could then be channeled into Arching Arrow/Heavy Shot (Fusion) = Light. Has anyone ever seen or done this? Would simply having everyone stick to Side/Slug be superior?

Edited, Sat Feb 12 21:35:37 2005 by Kiyokatsu

13,000 exp/hour (Do you need it?)

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=442836#442836

Right-Click, Save Target As
http://www.uff-forums.com/renaissance/filelib/44.avi

For only 105 limit points?

There's no such thing as a speed kill pt really, it's just a good party, though often times a bit excentric.

The OP has opbviously been in several bad pt's if he believes this:
"The standard XP PT setup is a heavily defensive setup: one single character (the Tank) is massively optimised to take hold and survive the hate from the target, and other Party members keep the Tank in the fight and with the hate. XP PTs prioritise hate control and survival over raw damage output."

That's completely wrong, hate control is only emphasized to allow more daaage output, what's the point of holding more hate if no one's going to draw hate from damage?

Maybe in you Whm Whm Rdm Pld Nin Drk pt's you heavily defensive, but standard pts are meant to be lean on defense and heavy on attack. More specialized pt's (whereas the OP falsely believed they were built around being balanced) tend to have no true tank.

spells do not give 10tp, period

RDM and WHM melee issues are not about HATE, they are about MOB TP. As I said before, had you been reading.

as for a pld, meleeing gives a pld tp and hate, although minor.

The reason people who are 60+ have this attitude is for one reason only: Mobs get harder after 60, and the random hack crap parties that you can get away with prior to 60 won't fly after it. If you've ever actually played post-60, you would understand this.

after see'ing "Spirits Within" beat my sata... yes

this is a good idea. many people dont see the power in this idea, but it becomes much more common higher up to use a style of partying similar to this (altho without the same emphasis on group hate-sharing for instance). a common mistake people make is believing that the only kind of mob worth fighting is the highest IT possible for your level. the same effect can be reached by chaining a number of T, VT, and low IT together using a maximum DD approach over the traditional defensive, out-tank approach.

give me two war/nins, a war/sam, a brd/whm, a rdm/blm and a sam/thf and i can accomplish just as much, if not more, xp gain as the typical tri-mage with pld tank+2 melee DD's will. and ill do it on VT and low IT mobs.

not to say theres anything wrong with the defensive style of partying. one of its bonuses tends to be safety; youre not balanced on a razors edge with death on either side of you. but it does get rather predictable, and that can be boring for some people.

so if you want some excitement, i suggest trying this out one day. its highly unorthodox, and youll have to do some heavy education to get people to understand how to best use it, but once you get into the groove, theres nothing like it.

and yes, we all know its not like a 5 rng+brd pt. nothing is like a 5 rng+brd pt except for a 5 blm+brg pt, so dont even compare the two. speedkill parties differ from mana/arrowburn parties in that they require a great deal of "by ear" playing, as opposed to a fairly rote set of actions.

edit: just saw this;



i have played post-60, and this does work. chaining undead, lizards, raptors, pugils, crabs, bunnies....pretty much anything between the outpost and the tunnel in cape T was our prey. war/nin, war/nin, drg/war, rng/nin, brd/whm, whm/blm was the pt setup, and we destroyed everything in our path with little-to-no resistance. clever choice of targets made using a double SC once every other battle possible, which allowed us to use a T or low VT for TP gain, then drop two distortion chains on the nearest IT. sure, it required a bit more thinking and presence of mind than youre average pt, but it worked, and it worked well (about 4800 xp/hr according to the parser the whm was running).

Edited, Sun Feb 13 09:24:48 2005 by Quor