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New TNL and old TNLFollow

#27 Apr 20 2005 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
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Oh I understand. Cause, you know, 31 hours is SO comperable to 4 years!

/sarcasm


It's called an analogy. Look it up.

In fact just go away. The exp change had zero impact on any of your jobs.

Edited, Wed Apr 20 22:36:12 2005 by NameAlreadyTaken
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#28 Apr 20 2005 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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So to get this strait, ur trying to compare RL to a game? I find ur logic rather faulty.


Seriously, this is a game to have fun. If you're not having fun playing then don't play. You weren't doing work, you were playing a &^%*ing VIDEO GAME. If you think it's horrible and a ***** to level then why do it? So you can be uber 1337 and show off how cool you are in some fantasy world?

That guy in your example actually did WORK to earn a living, feed his family, pets whatever. You play a VIDEO GAME to have fun - that's the difference.
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#29 Apr 20 2005 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The fact that you compare getting to 75 in a GAME to retiring from a JOB in real life is problem 1. A JOB is work and a GAME should be fun. Besides the fact that your scenario doesn't work the way the update does. The update is good for all people not just "new hires". The guy who had worked for 20 years when the system was changed would be able to take advantage of the new rules the way this update was set up. Only those people who had already retired (reached 75) would "be getting screwed". I posted this in the Pld forums a couple of days ago. It sums up nicely the way I feel about this subject:

This idea that people who have already gotten level 75 are "getting screwed" is laughable.  That's like saying all the people who have bought the PSP now will be getting screwed when they inevitably drop the price. You could look at it that way but then again the people that bought it when it first came out have been able to enjoy it the whole time. People who have already attained 75 have been able to work on their merit points, fight HNMs, do Dynamis runs etc all this time. They have their reward.

And the idea that more people getting to 75 will devalue the accomplisments of those who did it under the old system is just as ridiculous. I go to school, work and have a 11 month old that I take care of. By the time I get to 75 there will be quite a few people who have already attained it. Will I feel that my accomplishment means nothing? No. My sense of accomplishment is not based on what other people do. How many people have graduated highschool before me? How many have graduated since I did? Does that affect how I feel about my own gradutaion? No. Saying getting to 75 has less value simply because others have gotten there with you is like saying every time someone graduates from Harvard or Yale or MIT the less it means.

Besides, what is cutting a few hours off of peoples' leveling times going to hurt? How many times does one have to use Shield Bash, Sentinel or Cover to really know how to use it? After playing a job for 50 levels I would hope people have the hang of it. Learning to integrate a few new abilities shouldn't be too hard. Good players won't be any less skillled for the lessened playing time and bad players are bad players. If they can't figure it out by 50 then making them play for hour after hour from 51-75 is not really going to help.

All of the complaining seems to be coming from people who don't want too many people to be on the same level as them. Which is sad. This is supposed to be a game about community not a competition. You can't get your AF or AF2 by yourself, you need help to do it. You can't go on Dynamis runs by yourself. You can't fight Vrtra or Kirin by yourself. More people at higher levels means more people getting to do end game content. This is a good thing.

I know there is a finite supply of HNMs and Gods and I know this is a problem. But not one who's solution is limiting the amount of high level players. SE should take a page from WoW or City of Heroes and have instanced dungeons. The challenge of HNMs should be actually killing them not camping them. Instanced dungeons would allow all high levels to be able to participate in high level content without having to compete with each other. SE already uses instances for Promyvions and Dynamis so using them for HNMs and Sky shouldn't be that hard to implement.
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It was pointed out that Proms and Dynamis aren't instanced. But BCNMs are. So my original point that the concept is already in the game is still correct. SE just needs to take the idea further. SE simply needs to increase the amount of high level mobs for players to level on, not limit the amount of high level players. How fair is this idea that people who pay their monthly fees shouldn't be able to attain high levels because it will mess up your play? Seems selfish to me. People shouldn't complain about the amount of high level players, they should complain about the amount of high level mobs.

Here is the link to this discussion:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=5&mid=1113574000673819451&num=29







#30 Apr 20 2005 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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What I dont get, and this is just a thought here, is....

If people are so quick to judge those who DARE to say they feel a bit let down, like they may have "wasted" their time under the old system, if "it's just a GAME, its not like it was WORK how dare you be upset in even a tiny way!" is an acceptable outlook... why are you so happy to to have less hours of "fun" on your own personal road to 75? :p
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#31 Apr 20 2005 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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OK, here's a little food for thought for all the people in the 'stop whining' camp....

At your place of employment you are eligible for a full pension at 25 years of employment. You are 80% of the way there (20 years of hard work) and are looking forward to enjoying your retirement. Upper management decides that 25 years is too long, though, and that now you only need to work 20 years to be eligible for a full pension. Unfortuantely, since you were only 80% of the way to your pension you still have to work 4 more years for yours. All the new hires are happy since they get to retire early. You get to listen to them tell you all tay to stop whining: you only need to work 4 more years now instead of 5 to retire. "STFU old man, you just saved a year of work! It's easier now, quit whining!" Of course, the old man knows that if his company hadn't just boned him out of 5 years of work he would be able to retire that day.

Sound reasonable to you?

Under the 'Old' experience point system I had earned enough to be 6k in to 71. Going by the new experience requirements that amount of total exp gained would put me at 74+....yet I'm still level 71. I shaved a whopping 10k off what I need to reach 75...small consolation compared to the 114K extra that I spent getting to 71 that's now gone.

Would you tell that employee that had worked for 20 years that he was being a whiner about having to work 4 more years for his pension, even though he had already worked long enough to retire (if his company had a clue)? Then stop telling people to quit whining about the experience point change.


You would have a sem-valid point if we could only lvl one job past lvl 50. You have the same opportunity as anyone else to take advantage of this new system.

Also, your choices have a risk to them. Just like the people who bought Raise III for 3 million before it dropped to 500K. Just like in real life you carry a risk in the job you take or retirement plan you choose.

Edited, Wed Apr 20 23:03:10 2005 by DieselEdge
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#32 Apr 20 2005 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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why are you so happy to to have less hours of "fun" on your own personal road to 75?


Since I can lvl other jobs faster to 75 =o.

Actually I did ding 75 last night so... BLAH to all those who were already 75 well b4 the update, at least u didn't ding the day b4 the xp change ;p
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#33 Apr 20 2005 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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56-57 20000 14000 6000 25000


Wewt! I'm 1 tnl to 57! Im going to die of happiness.
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#34 Apr 20 2005 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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If people are so quick to judge those who DARE to say they feel a bit let down, like they may have "wasted" their time under the old system, if "it's just a GAME, its not like it was WORK how dare you be upset in even a tiny way!" is an acceptable outlook... why are you so happy to to have less hours of "fun" on your own personal road to 75? :p


I could easily be 75 right now, but I don't find leveling all that fun. I like doing quests, farming, crafting, leveling random jobs, etc. - I have to be in a certain mood to enjoy leveling. The point is nobody forced me to level, just as nobody forced you to level. I get tired of leveling in long spurts, so I don't do it. I try to have some variety in my adventure. I think that's fun.

What - we're missing out on killing 500 more crabs & beetles? Yay, what joy, you're so uber for having done that. I honestly don't think of this game as a road to 75. I doubt I will ever make it there. That's not the point for me - we don't all think of it as a race to 75.
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#35 Apr 20 2005 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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AlbergoZz hmmm i remeber you.. your evil.. of course you could just be a copy cat
#36 Apr 20 2005 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Ayeka- That wasn't my point at all. :/ Why do you assume that Im some holier-than-though Lv75 trying to come down on you? I never even mentioned my own opinion on this, I just brought up a point that looked hypocritical to me. My point was that some of the people in this debate, who are so happy -not- to have to fight those 500 more crabs, seem to get offended at the mere thought that others could bummed out about -having- to have fought those 500 more crabs to reach the same goal.



Now, Im not saying people should go "Omfg SE sucks gimme mah exp!!". And Im sure we'll all benefit from the lower exp tnls overall when levelling upcoming jobs. But when someone sees that they didnt have to exp for that 30hrs or whatever, yeah, maybe theyre disappointed. Is that so wrong? And if one buys Raise III for 3million and it goes down to 300k the next day- Wouldn't you be disappointed if that happened too? If that happened to your friend, would you express sympathy on his poor luck/timing, or give him an angry lecture about how he chose to buy it early and he has no one to blame but himself? Is it such a big deal to see where the other person is coming from on this?

Edited, Wed Apr 20 23:26:40 2005 by Sey
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#37 Apr 20 2005 at 10:42 PM Rating: Default
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I think this argument of "you should have enjoyed leveling, this is a game" really has no logic behind it. Do you always enjoy every aspect of a game you play? Whether it be MMORPG or not, you play through that parts you don't always like anyways to get to your goal, to achieve something. Take Final Fantasy VII, I don't really like playing in the slums at all in the beggining, but that doesn't mean I dislike the game. I play through that section so I can get to the parts I do enjoy. This also applies to leveling. I don't always enjoy it, but I worked through it to reach my end goal of 75. Does this mean I don't have fun in the game? No way! You can't be expected to fully enjoy every aspect of a game you are playing.

Also, saying "I could be 75 if I wanted" gets very old. Sure you "could" be, but you aren't. It's like saying, "I could be a pro-athlete, but I don't like sports."
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#38 Apr 20 2005 at 10:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you wen to school and studied hard to get enough credits to earn a Bachelor's degree you would surely be proud of yourself. If, two years later, the college you graduated from decided to require a few less credits for the same degree would you be angry at them?

Your extra efforts were not wasted. You got to be level 75 before anyone else! You had to work harder, but you got the reward earlier. No matter how many people become level 75 from here on out nothing will ever change the fact that you were there first.

Personally, I would be glad to see this happen. I can't even rally enough people to do simple things like BCNM and Promy runs, I can't imagine how hard it must be to find enough people to do a Dynamis or HNM event. I'm sure there are linkshells that have enough members to make it work on a regular basis but from all my past experiences getting a lot of people together to do anything in this game is just very hard. I would be happy to have a larger pool of potential teammates to pick from in a few months.

Again, this is all coming from a guy who just hit level 50 and has no level 75 experience. Just speculating on how I think I would feel about this. Even though the TNL is reduced, I still don't think you're going to see a ton of people fly to level 75 overnight. That's still a hell of a lot of EXP to have to gain even if it is 120k less than it used to be.
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#39 Apr 20 2005 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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g a m e.

people are literally getting distressed about this IRL. i can actually imagine level 75s all pissy talking to their friends on AIM about it. i can't believe people are getting worked up over this, make refrences to IRL anagolies. you can't compare, in any facet, IRL to F A N T A S Y. you can, but it's almost depressing to read.

i almost feel a sting of pity.

g a m e.



#40 Apr 21 2005 at 12:38 AM Rating: Default
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In conclusion, I feel Square should do one or more of the following to be fair with the high level:

1) Compensate the lost xp: Square would compensate player for their extra xp. For example, for a lv 75, he should be compensated for 124k xp worth of merit points, because that's what he should have gotten under the new rule. For a player with 4 lv 75, he should get 4x124k = 500k xp worth of merit points. If you feel this is rediculous, then...

2) Depreciate the item/gil acquisition curve as they do with xp. In other words, make crafting, drop rate, gardening, and item/gil acquisition 10 times as easy. The consequence is everyone will have uber items. People who have uber items today will no longer stand out in the soon future. It will be unfair to ppl who acquired their uber items the "hard way", but this is as unfair as the high level who acquired their level the hard way under the new rule.

3) Make skilling up for crafting, fishing, chocobo-digging 10 times as easy. Again, the consequence is everyone will now have 100 crafting, and it's unfair to ppl who crafted the hard way, but this is just as unfair to the ppl who level the hard way.

I know ppl hate long post, so this is my summary. The following is a more detail discussion of my reasoning:

Opportunity cost. That's what I feel Square is stealing from me with the new xp rules. That's why I am mad with this xp change. Using Zarath's nice calculation and assumption, each lv 75 job loses 31 hours of opportunity. 31 hours! Yes this is 17% of xp from 51-75. And I think this is a lot! This is like working half time for a week! Or like losing out on 31 hours to lv another job you want! If you have 4 level 75 jobs, you are 4x screwed.

And heaven forbids if you are blessed with zero LFG or down time. If not, 31 hours can easily be 40++ hours. That's about 1 million gil at 30k/hour. It can be a lot more than 1 million gil if you have better means of making gil or if your leveling days were way back before the inflation. (leave the inflation part if you disagree with my take, let's not discuss economy in this xp topic)

Generally, you can think of every action you take as a choice and that you trade off one activity with another like withsilverwings said. However, this is only true if you look at time as a constant. . In this case of tnl change, time is not fixed. For each lv 75 job you have, you lose 31 hours of opportunity! With 31 more hours, it's no longer a trade off: you could have done more activities, xp, farming, or whatever.

Another way to see this situation is that Sqaure unfairly changed their reward preposititon to the players. It really pissed me off. AlbergoZz 's comment provides an excellent example for me: "Second, why are you pissed that you have an endgame character and people like myself who have spent a lot more time crafting and helping people and less leveling (not saying that you haven't) can have an easier time getting to 75."

You see, time, gil, item, and level are how Square rewards their players. They are also pretty interchaneable. You can trade time for gil/itm (farm), time for level (xp grind), gil for time (pay to ride that damn chocobo to move faster), or gil for level (eat food, expensive equipment, use consumable items).

Square's reward preposition to the player is currently at approximately 30k gil per hour or 1/10th of a level per hour, at lv71->72. (tnl is 40k, and at 4k/hour this is 1/10th of a level. I used 71-72 as an example b/c 124k is the total difference for lv 51 to 75, or 5.8k/level, and 5.8k is pretty close to 4k and is also a nice number).

Going back to my point, this is why I am really pissed: Square makes it easier to level, but doesn't compensate players who did it the hard way. Square also doesn't make it easier to acquire gil and item. Let say Square make items drop say ten times as much (strider boot, silk, whatever). Now, how do you professional nm hunter feel about this? The 100 hours you spent camping for Sozu now worth 10 hours. Let say instead of 1.0 to increas a craft level, it now takes .1. So starting at 0 gold smith, it takes you .1 once to become level 1 gold smith, instead of .1 ten times. Now, how do you crafter feel about this? You are probably better of having spent your time leveling in the past, because you wasted your time crafting in the past the hard way.

Update; Initially I posted this as a reply... but I really want more ppl to see my opinions, so i copied and pasted this as a new topic. sorry for the double post. I signed up for Allakhazam today after 1.5 years just to make this post.. mind as well..





Edited, Thu Apr 21 01:50:16 2005 by ChocoboSalad
#41 Apr 21 2005 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
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All i can really say is i'd much rather be lvl 75, well into dynamis, hnm hunting, all that crap and have "gotten screwed" over this xp thing. I'm sitting at 59 and still have a huge trek to climb to 75.
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#42 Apr 21 2005 at 6:03 AM Rating: Default
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i'm going to get rated down and i don't care.

My job was 3k to 67, i'm now 1 to 67, how nice. The next person comming up from 51 will need 89.5k xp less than i did to reach 67 and i feel that is totally unfair. lets look how long that took me 3k per hour on average in the crappy pick up parties = nearly 30 hours, add to that my seeking for 10 to 14 hours to get a party which may get me 10k xp and thats a lot of wasted time.

I am glad they reduced the xp per level, i just think they should have give up the xp they wiped, after all that was my xp not there's, at the very least they could have given me the xp i had over in the level i was on and made me 2k in to 67.
#43 Apr 21 2005 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with them giving you exp as compensation is that not all exp is equal in difficulty. You have to admit that some levels are much more difficult than others. I know it feels bad to have "lost" that exp, but I also believe it isn't right to credit you with exp at the level you are when the exp wasn't earned at that level for just that reason. I don't know what an equitable solution would be.
#44 Apr 21 2005 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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lol wow, i'm PERFECTLY at the highest change lvl (61-62) right now...
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#45 Apr 21 2005 at 6:39 AM Rating: Default
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I think there is a lot to this.. at the moment my highest level job is only at 36. I don´t know if I will ever get to level 75 and I don't really know if it matters. I have been playing for more than 1 and a half year and before you start laughing and saying stuff like: "OMG!!! More than 1 and a half year and only level 36?!?!" let me tell you how I play...
I have a job, a girlfriend, a lot of friends, things to do, but I really enjoy taking a couple of hours now and then... maybe not every week, maybe twice every week. Playing like that doesn´t get you very far... but once again.. I enjoy the game.

I personally think they have gone the wrong way with this system... why make it easier to get to level 75? I think they should make it harder... make level 75 into something super speciel that can only be achieved by gaming and gaming and gaming. I know level 75 is not easy to achieve as it is... but does it matter? Why not play for the fun of it... and let the ones who really want to hit that mark, do whatever they can to get it (and make it hard for them, they will get it eventually anyway).

When I started and saw a level 75 something I went ... Wow.. OMG... He/She was LEVEL 75?!?! These days it is not a special thing anymore... Some have several level 75 jobs, and mules in the late 60's and I know not what. Why not make it something special?

Maybe I am missing some point somewhere, I don't know, but it should be something speciel to attain the highest level in the game.

Oh and by the way.. to all you high level players who are complaining ask yourself one question: "Was I happy with the system as it was, did I level the way I wanted to level? Would I have liked it to have been easier?"... If you are content with the way things turned out, don't be mad because other can easier get what you hard to work hard to get. Be proud that you have level 75, use it... go hunting... I think it is so wrong to say: "I lost 31 hours buhuhuuu". You didn't loose anything. You still have level 75: you just got it under other circumstances. You have NOT wasted time...



Edited, Thu Apr 21 07:56:28 2005 by Kidxxx
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#46 Apr 21 2005 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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OK, here's a little food for thought for all the people in the 'stop whining' camp....

At your place of employment you are eligible for a full pension at 25 years of employment. You are 80% of the way there (20 years of hard work) and are looking forward to enjoying your retirement. Upper management decides that 25 years is too long, though, and that now you only need to work 20 years to be eligible for a full pension. Unfortuantely, since you were only 80% of the way to your pension you still have to work 4 more years for yours. All the new hires are happy since they get to retire early. You get to listen to them tell you all tay to stop whining: you only need to work 4 more years now instead of 5 to retire. "STFU old man, you just saved a year of work! It's easier now, quit whining!" Of course, the old man knows that if his company hadn't just boned him out of 5 years of work he would be able to retire that day.

Sound reasonable to you?

Under the 'Old' experience point system I had earned enough to be 6k in to 71. Going by the new experience requirements that amount of total exp gained would put me at 74+....yet I'm still level 71. I shaved a whopping 10k off what I need to reach 75...small consolation compared to the 114K extra that I spent getting to 71 that's now gone.

Would you tell that employee that had worked for 20 years that he was being a whiner about having to work 4 more years for his pension, even though he had already worked long enough to retire (if his company had a clue)? Then stop telling people to quit whining about the experience point change.


Yes I would tell him to stop whining.. after all he DID save one year... if the company had done nothing he would have had to work for 5 years...
What about the ones who already got their pension.. should they say.. "Oh my God... that is so unfair... I hate them all.." or should they say:"Oh my God, that is so nice.. I would have loved it to be like that earlier so I only had to work twenty years, but I am very happy for the young ones. They only have to work for twenty years... Good for them."

Come on man... don't be so bitter and grumpy... get on with it...

Edited, Thu Apr 21 08:13:02 2005 by Kidxxx
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#47 Apr 21 2005 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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This is a fantasy game to have fun. Why is there so much bitterness against your fellow gamers?

I personally feel the game is terrible unbalanced due to the intense inflations on our servers. The gil sellers have gone crazy jacking up all prices at the AH.

A brand new noob had all the odds against him. I usually offer gil or gear at this guy if I have it.

Then this noob buys gil because nothing is left for them to make any real amount of gil.

This new XP system might suck for some people, but please realize some people have jobs or RL commitment that has held them back.

The botton line is Lv50 was "end game" long ago. SE was on borrowed time and tried its best to slow people down to the Lv75 cap. Now more and more people are leaving due to the problems of the game. This helps make the game more enjoyable for players who thought of quitting.

As for the other threads quoting all new Lv70's will suck *** and just ruin the experience. I blame that on people like you who don't help out your fellow gamer.
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#48 Apr 21 2005 at 2:14 PM Rating: Default
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does anyone notice that all the 70+ ppl hate this update and all the noobies love it? SE i bet just lost tons of there 'hardcore' players, i for one am quiting because of this **** and how SE treats the NA's. Goodbye Diabolos!!!!! 75blm/whm/rdm 20,000,000$ any noobs wanna buy my account?
#49 Apr 21 2005 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Ushaa wrote:
does anyone notice that all the 70+ ppl hate this update and all the noobies love it? SE i bet just lost tons of there 'hardcore' players, i for one am quiting because of this **** and how SE treats the NA's. Goodbye Diabolos!!!!! 75blm/whm/rdm 20,000,000$ any noobs wanna buy my account?


Most of the 75s I know don't ***** half as much as you would like to believe about this. We got there first, and have had first cracks at merits, so we're still FAR ahead, and leveling for 8 hours in a row, sometimes for days and days, was NO picnic.

The only people crying about this change are the ones who are content to only have ONE job up to level 75, and now that they have it, they want to be sissies and cry because others may reach their warped idea of "end game."

I want to try taking some other jobs up past 50 now that it's more reasonable, and I still have earned many Merit Points which will help me with whatever I do, so I'm not going to whine about other people not having to needlessly suffer to get somewhere.

FURTHERMORE - If someone wants to whine about there being more high-level n00bs, I hate to break it to you, but you don't have to party with them. You don't have to adventure with them, and NO ONE shackled you to your PC and made you rush to level up in the first place, so, for God's sake! STFU already.

Edited, Thu Apr 21 15:23:06 2005 by Kaibelf
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Rank 10 BESTOK.

**Think a DRK/RDM can't cut it? Neither did these jokers:**
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/uf/Kaibelf/kaissacre.jpg

"And if I catch you coming back my way, I'm gonna serve it to you. And that ain't what you want to hear but that's what I'll do." ~Seven Nation Army

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#50 Apr 21 2005 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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1,191 posts
Ushaa wrote:
does anyone notice that all the 70+ ppl hate this update and all the noobies love it? SE i bet just lost tons of there 'hardcore' players, i for one am quiting because of this **** and how SE treats the NA's. Goodbye Diabolos!!!!! 75blm/whm/rdm 20,000,000$ any noobs wanna buy my account?

Somehow, if you're quitting over this, I don't think you're as "hardcore" as you'd like to think.
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Game over: Oct. 31, 2005
Climhazzard[/i]
RDM53 BLM32 WHM30 BST10 SMN5 WAR3
Cooking:60 Fishing:29 Alchemy:23 Woodworking:2 Leathercraft:1
Server:Bahamut Race:Hume ♂ Nation:San d'Oria Rank:5 Linkshell:EveryonesRancor
#51 Apr 21 2005 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
209 posts
Ushaa with your attitude, the game is better off without you. You contribute nothing, please leave now. Thanks.
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Name: Luciferous
Server: Cerberus
Jobs: Drk: 65, War: 33, Thf: 40, Mnk: 11, Nin: 19, Rng: 7

Crafts: Fishing: 44, Smithing: 22, Goldsmithing 20, Leathercraft: 22

Argus: 1/1

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