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So now that FFXI may be dying soon..Follow

#102 Apr 15 2016 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Additional retainers are a luxury. You don't actually need them. You want them, and they can be useful, but you don't need them. It's not unreasonable to expect people to pay for some luxuries. You may not like it, but hey, that's life, and if it bothers you that much you can always take your money elsewhere.


My objection isn't so much to paying for it (though yeah... a sub game that makes you pay extra cash for bank space is super gross), my objection is having to SUBSCRIBE to it. They raise your subscription cost... a lot.

Even f2p games that sell you inventory and bank space (a common practice) don't make you subscribe to it. They don't lease you space monthly. You buy it, it's there, you're done. SE wants you paying monthly for extra bank space, and that's crap.

Regarding one of the more common arguments for why paying extra subscriptions per month for retainers is somehow ok...
Quoted from the official forums:
Quote:
I don't buy the excuse that increasing server-side data like this should mean having to pay this much more... and I'll explain why:

Right now there are two subscription options: Basic and Full.
- Basic gets you 1 character per server with a max of 8 characters across all servers
- Full gets you 8 characters per server with a max of 40(?) characters across all servers

Full costs $3 more per month than Basic.

So eight characters with two retainers each would be 16 retainers (no additional ones purchased) for $3/month over the Basic price. That's an absolute TON of extra data compared to just a bunch of retainers on a single character. Besides all the retainer data, it's also full character data for seven additional characters. But adding 6 retainers to a Basic account doubles the subscription fee? Nope. I don't buy it.

Furthermore because we can't share inventories or mail between alts outside of some personal FC shenanigans (which precludes you from joining an FC to pull off), we don't even have the choice to pay for the more efficient option to expand inventory space. All this ostensibly to curb rmt activities.... yeah that's going really well.

So no. If these end up doubling the sub fee for Basic-level players, it's just greed. There's no technical reason for this that makes any sense at all. SE just wants more money from you and they've figured out how to get it.

Not even free-to-play games charge you MONTHLY for your expanded inventory space.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/238683-Pay-for-your-inventory.?p=3035270&viewfull=1#post3035270

Quote:
There's a little more to an item in your inventory than that, but you've got the basics.

At most you're looking at an object that contains:
itemId, quantity, dye, aetherialStats[5], aetherialValues[5], materiaId[5], signature, spiritbond, condition

So that's an: unsigned int, unsigned short, unsigned int, 5 unsigned ints, 5 unsigned ints, 5 unsigned ints, string, unsigned short, unsigned short. About 106 bytes per item. Be generous and round us up to 128 bytes per item to give us room to expand later.

That not huge. Each character can have a few hundred of those in regular inventory (including retainers). And then of course the armoire and calamity salvager have a much simpler structure consisting entirely of: itemId.

Yeah the disk space claim doesn't pass the smell test. Previously they've complained about the number of read/writes they're having to do (apparently the game writes your entire character every 15 seconds, which is frankly a ridiculous thing to do), but then that's what you attack. There's no reason we need to be writing character data that often. We could double that interval, toss in zone changes as forced writes, and still cut the CPU time used for this and the bandwidth required roughly in half.

Or we could double people's sub fees so they can have enough inventory space. Yeah let's do that one!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/238683-Pay-for-your-inventory.?p=3036007&viewfull=1#post3036007

Edited, Apr 15th 2016 3:33pm by Callinon
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#103 Apr 16 2016 at 8:39 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
So much negativity over a video game.

If you don't like it, don't play it! And if you don't play it, then let go of the bitterness that drove you away!

Seriously, who cares of other people are paying more for extra inventory space that nobody needs? Good on SE for finding a way to literally monetize nothing.


Karlina wrote:
Runespider wrote:
The thing I hate most about retainers is that you know the developers won't increase inventory space because it would hurt retainer subs

No, I don't know that actually. It might be true, but it's probably not as nefarious as you seem to think.

Additional retainers are a luxury. You don't actually need them. You want them, and they can be useful, but you don't need them. It's not unreasonable to expect people to pay for some luxuries. You may not like it, but hey, that's life, and if it bothers you that much you can always take your money elsewhere.

Basic cable doesn't give you all the fancy movie or sports channels. Are you going to complain to Comcast that they should be giving you HBO for free just because they can and you deserve it?


Runespider wrote:
Also since you seem so willing to apologize for anything they seem to do

I do? When did that happen? I'm perfectly happy to criticize the things I feel are bad or annoying or unfair. Paid retainers just isn't one of those things.


If you have 3 specialists like many serious crafters, trust me, you end up needing that additional space. But most basic players? No, you don't need them. The problem is, though, considering how successful the mog station is, it shows they don't need to work on "in-game solutions" because they still make the money regardless. It is a bit strange you have people singing the praises of the game despite there being tons of missing features and even problems that not even Blizzard was able to push past players without complaint.

So all in all, SE is extremely lucky to have a playerbase that doesn't care about things like that until it starts affecting them. Take for example the Japanese exclusive event items, people raised more hell over that than they did actual game problems.

So it's more along the lines of, they can increase our inventories if they want to, but INSTEAD, they rather sell it to us because they know people will buy it because it IS a necessity if you actually do a lot in this game.
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#104 Apr 16 2016 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
And yet you're willing to pay it and be angry, rather than just find a game you enjoy.
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#105 Apr 16 2016 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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It is a bit strange you have people singing the praises of the game despite there being tons of missing features and even problems that not even Blizzard was able to push past players without complaint.


Is it possible that people generally fall into a middle ground somewhere between "SE is a golden god" and "SE is literally Hitler?"

Maybe it's not black and white here. For me, the only person I'm qualified to speak for, I praise the things I think they're doing or have done well, and I criticize the things I think they're doing or have done badly. For instance I think their story writing is fantastic. I like the concept, if not the execution of the armory system. I like that they're able to push content on a regular schedule. That all being said, I think their handling of retainers is ridiculous (not just the subscription cost for them... most other aspects of the system too). I think their leveling experience for off-main jobs is horrible. And I'd like them to shake up their formula more with regards to content structure, it's a little too predictable. See? It's possible for me to like aspects of what they're doing and dislike other aspects, and it doesn't make me a hypocrite to say that. I don't have to like EVERYTHING in order to praise those things I think they've done well. That would be ridiculous, I'd never be able to like anything anywhere... ever.
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#106 Apr 16 2016 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is it possible that people generally fall into a middle ground somewhere between "SE is a golden god" and "SE is literally Hitler?"


NO! THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND.

Take me for instance. Even when I appear to be criticizing the game -- such as when I rip on the Diadem, or when I call out the game's lack of social infrastructure, or battle mechanics that lean more on memorization rather than actual skill -- in my mind, as I type this stuff out, I'm actually "singing" these words in a positive way, as if it is actual praise.
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#107 Apr 17 2016 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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Did we ever complain this much about needing mules in FFXI? In XI we ALL paid extra for that. I don't know a single person who didn't have at least one mule. Many people had two or more. I don't remember much complaining about it though.
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#108 Apr 17 2016 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
Karlina wrote:
Did we ever complain this much about needing mules in FFXI? In XI we ALL paid extra for that. I don't know a single person who didn't have at least one mule. Many people had two or more. I don't remember much complaining about it though.


I think the difference is the era this game came out in. FFXI was limited by the PS2 (even though they managed to circumvent some inventory issues over time). FFXIV really has no reason to be so limited with PC/PS4/PS3, and I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually ax the PS3.

I personally don't care either way if they charge or not, it's never been an issue for me personally. That being said, if you're someone who has all jobs to 60, enjoys the glamour system AND crafts...you're out of room in no time. For a game that promotes all these things with change your job on the fly! Collect these items! It just seems so odd to limit inventory. My issue is the gaming industry as a whole going this way, that's what's driving me nuts, forget only XIV, the whole industry is going down the crapper with micro transactions.

When games like Bloodborne come out, fully complete, it's a shock to my system. Then they release an expansion (probably one of the better ones) and only charge 20$, that's the way to do things. When Heavensward came out with new jobs, items, etc they should of expanded the inventory system big time. Instead, no, go buy more space!

Also, as it was pointed out earlier, it's the fact that's it's a monthly fee. I would almost rather pay a little more expensive one time fee and call it a day.


Edited, Apr 17th 2016 8:35am by Montsegurnephcreep
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#109 Apr 17 2016 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Did we ever complain this much about needing mules in FFXI? In XI we ALL paid extra for that. I don't know a single person who didn't have at least one mule. Many people had two or more. I don't remember much complaining about it though.


I didn't like it, but I also didn't know any better. There's a bit of a difference between the MMO scene of 2002 vs the MMO scene of 2016. Hard drive space is no longer a real concern the way it was 14 years ago. Now you want to keep people under control so they don't just do something degenerate with it (because they will... it's the internet), but this isn't about cost cutting today, it's about greed.
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#110 Apr 17 2016 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
Did we ever complain this much about needing mules in FFXI? In XI we ALL paid extra for that. I don't know a single person who didn't have at least one mule. Many people had two or more. I don't remember much complaining about it though.

I can't say I was fond of the process, but during the time you also had things like city-specific AHs and vendors you couldn't quickly access from other regions. Further, I was probably one of the few people who disliked the fact you could have characters who never left their starting city being prominent crafters. Or gardening at its peak and people creating hundreds of thousands of gil out of thin air.

In the end, I pretty much look to it from the angle of accessibility. If it's not available to everyone, it probably shouldn't be locked behind a paywall or some absurd gameplay metric. XIV's retainers may not be as obvious an advantage as they were in XI back in the day, but they still yield some economic power when used properly. Overall, I'd say everyone should have access to 5 retainers, even if the last 2 require playing through the main storyline to unlock. If immediate dev commentary is akin to, "The servers would go kablooey!" then, as with the housing issue, it's honestly their responsibility to fix and not make excuses not to.

Cash grab in both games, through and through, however.
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#111 Apr 17 2016 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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Is it possible that people generally fall into a middle ground somewhere between "SE is a golden god" and "SE is literally Hitler?"


NO! THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND


Considering you play the same game I do, you're right, there is no middle ground.

Thayos wrote:
And yet you're willing to pay it and be angry, rather than just find a game you enjoy.


Actually, I haven't paid for my sub yet. I still had a huge crysta supply from when their shop used it and my original crysta purchases from 1.x. So unless SE is getting money from my crysta bought 3 years ago...interesting. (Also, stop telling people to go away you disagree with.)

And yeah, no one really complained that much about XI mule situation and a lot of decisions SE even admitted they decided against because it would affect people who have mules for specific purposes (crafting for example.) But as someone said, it was a completely different era.

This is the "pay to win" and "microtransaction" era, so honestly, if someone could legitimately praise a game for not even meeting current industry standard, it doesn't exactly push them to fix problems. No matter how you try to slice it, there are problems that should not exist and are solely on a design decision level.




Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
It is a bit strange you have people singing the praises of the game despite there being tons of missing features and even problems that not even Blizzard was able to push past players without complaint.


Is it possible that people generally fall into a middle ground somewhere between "SE is a golden god" and "SE is literally Hitler?"

Maybe it's not black and white here. For me, the only person I'm qualified to speak for, I praise the things I think they're doing or have done well, and I criticize the things I think they're doing or have done badly. For instance I think their story writing is fantastic. I like the concept, if not the execution of the armory system. I like that they're able to push content on a regular schedule. That all being said, I think their handling of retainers is ridiculous (not just the subscription cost for them... most other aspects of the system too). I think their leveling experience for off-main jobs is horrible. And I'd like them to shake up their formula more with regards to content structure, it's a little too predictable. See? It's possible for me to like aspects of what they're doing and dislike other aspects, and it doesn't make me a hypocrite to say that. I don't have to like EVERYTHING in order to praise those things I think they've done well. That would be ridiculous, I'd never be able to like anything anywhere... ever.


I'll even translate a particular post in a thread on 2ch that's somewhat related that popped up today - "If you sign up for FGL (Fusion GOL internet service) and they tell you that their node can only handle 20,000 people at a time at any time of the day and you lose your internet for sometimes days at a time, would you sit there with a smile on your face because you love the 2gb/s download speeds when you do have? Find a new provider despite loving everything else about them or would you complain and tell them you want better service for all the money you pay? What if they said they can't improve because their node would blow up if they allow more than 20,000 people to have internet access at a time, would you question their service standards, or would you sit back and tell them good job just because you happen to have internet every now and then?"

A network node is essentially the same importance as an MMORPG database/server. If there's problems preventing x from being improved, it's a huge problem you can't just say "the game is perfect!" it simply means you're accepting of the things you like and don't care about the other problems. Which is fine, but then you have people treating it as if the problems don't matter because "the rest of the game is good."

Have you ever seen that go well in other MMO communities? Hell even in XI communities back in the day?

Edited, Apr 17th 2016 3:35pm by Theonehio
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#112 Apr 17 2016 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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(Also, stop telling people to go away you disagree with.)


I've never, ever told you to "go away." I've strongly recommended that you find a game you enjoy playing, rather than one that seems to constantly make you upset. I've obviously read most or all of your posts here for many months, and I honestly can't think of one thing that you actually like about this game. Your posts on ZAM's FFXI board are far more positive, and even those posts include occasional digs at FFXIV.

So it's extremely logical that I've said you'd be better off finding a game that you enjoy playing -- unless there's just a lot you're holding back from discussions.

Quote:
This is the "pay to win" and "microtransaction" era, so honestly, if someone could legitimately praise a game for not even meeting current industry standard, it doesn't exactly push them to fix problems.


Nobody here has ever praised the game for not meeting industry standards.

Quote:
If there's problems preventing x from being improved, it's a huge problem you can't just say "the game is perfect!" it simply means you're accepting of the things you like and don't care about the other problems. Which is fine, but then you have people treating it as if the problems don't matter because "the rest of the game is good."


Nobody here has ever said "the game is perfect!" Every single person in this community has stated flaws with the game. A few people have voiced far more displeasure than others.

In fact, it's probably more accurate to say there are ZAM posters who've said "everything about this game sucks!" rather than "everything is perfect!" (But even the negative statement could probably be shown to be inaccurate, if you dig deep enough through the archives.)

Edited, Apr 17th 2016 3:46pm by Thayos
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#113 Apr 17 2016 at 4:54 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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(Also, stop telling people to go away you disagree with.)


I've never, ever told you to "go away." I've strongly recommended that you find a game you enjoy playing


That's essentially telling someone to go away because you seem to confuse "not praising the game" with hating the game. We're actually in this situation now because people are far less likely to allow conversations about what the game does wrong, because you tend to...you know, try to get driven out if you're "negative." Heck, people on reddit and GW even did a test to show just how quick even SE mods will shut down "criticism" threads simply because if you say "X part of the game is really bad and hasn't changed in 3 years", the white knights come out in full force to try to drive you out. Smiley: wink

Quote:
and I honestly can't think of one thing that you actually like about this game


I said it before I'll say it again: Second I say something "negative", it triggers you and shoots you to defense mode, which is why you can't think of "one thing", despite me stating it numerous times.

Quote:
Your posts on ZAM's FFXI board are far more positive, and even those posts include occasional digs at FFXIV.


Indeed, because it's quite easy to see there's something seriously wrong happening with the behind the scenes at SE that's preventing them from actually...doing something with this game. Maybe it's because I've done more than just "play" games and actually worked on games as well that I can see beyond the PR ******** and it honestly irks me to see so many people simply fall for it, but hey, it's not my money. It's just funny after HW kicked into gear you seen even the most "I love this game, SE and Yoshi can do no wrong" people on the OF start questioning and wondering what the hell happened.

As for this in particular:

Quote:
Nobody here has ever praised the game for not meeting industry standards.


I'm never talking about strictly "just here", because that would mean SE is keeping ARR/HW running for at best 60 people.

Edited, Apr 17th 2016 3:55pm by Theonehio

Edited, Apr 17th 2016 3:55pm by Theonehio
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#114 Apr 17 2016 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's essentially telling someone to go away because you seem to confuse "not praising the game" with hating the game. We're actually in this situation now because people are far less likely to allow conversations about what the game does wrong, because you tend to...you know, try to get driven out if you're "negative." Heck, people on reddit and GW even did a test to show just how quick even SE mods will shut down "criticism" threads simply because if you say "X part of the game is really bad and hasn't changed in 3 years", the white knights come out in full force to try to drive you out.


The first part of your statement, no, it's not the same at all. From what you post on these forums, I can't for the life of me understand why you play this game (other than how you just indicated that you've prepaid for a big chunk of time, so maybe you're just running out the clock). I wouldn't be recommending that you find a game you'd enjoy more if you seemed to get anything positive from your FFXIV experience.

As for the second part of your statement, there is some truth there, but not as much as you're making it out to be. I've been part of several critical discussions on the OFs that weren't buried. I've also voiced plenty of criticism myself, and I've not once been banned or had my posts disappear. The only threads I've seen locked are threads that devolve into namecalling and hostility, and that stuff always comes from "both sides," so to speak.

Quote:
I said it before I'll say it again: Second I say something "negative", it triggers you and shoots you to defense mode, which is why you can't think of "one thing", despite me stating it numerous times.


The only thing it triggers from me is a facepalm because your negativity has become so dang predictable.

Of course I'm going to respond to things you say here. We almost always disagree, and you sometimes either take my words out of context or put words in my mouth. Our community here isn't very big though, so if we're going to continue disagreeing as often as we do, then yes, you'd better get over me responding. It's going to keep happening as long as we regularly disagree.

Quote:
Indeed, because it's quite easy to see there's something seriously wrong happening with the behind the scenes at SE that's preventing them from actually...doing something with this game. Maybe it's because I've done more than just "play" games and actually worked on games as well that I can see beyond the PR ******** and it honestly irks me to see so many people simply fall for it, but hey, it's not my money.


I wish this attitude translated to your actual experience with the game. You're not really paying for it, so why stress so much?

Quote:
It's just funny after HW kicked into gear you seen even the most "I love this game, SE and Yoshi can do no wrong" people on the OF start questioning and wondering what the **** happened.


And there are also people who hated 1.x who've come back and been quite happy. It works both ways.

But yes, it's logical that some people will cool on MMOs and try out new games. That happened to me with Guild Wars 2. That happened to tons of other people with tons of other games. But the fact that a fraction of people cools on a game doesn't indicate some kind of systemic failure; it just means the game is finding its core audience, and those folks aren't a part of it.
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#115 Apr 17 2016 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
From what you post on these forums, I can't for the life of me understand why you play this game

As someone who you take many opportunities to point out as someone who doesn't play, I feel like I can respond here.

"If you don't like it, go do something else" is not, never has been and never will be(barring monopoly) a thing that anyone who gives a **** about their company would ever say to their consumers. It's something you say because it suits your needs of having only people who blow rainbows posting their love and admiration of SE and their games.

It's strange that you always seem to fall back on "Filth doesn't even play XIV" though I'm here already giving reasons and support for why I don't. Even stranger, the fact that sometimes you actually agree with me.

What you really need to realize, and I said this years ago, is that people who are critical are only critical because they care. I don't come here discussing the problems with XIV because I want everyone to bring out pitchforks. I do it because people should realize that it's OK to criticize things you love and respect.

Again the same old example... If someone you loved had a drug problem, would you call them on their ******** or would you just nod and agree with their denial? Same concept here. I'm only disappointed in XIV because I wanted it to be my game. My only requirements for that were building on things you did well and learning from your previous mistakes.

Unfortunately (and I can't pinpoint if it's a SE thing, a cultural thing or both) it seems like the devs are resigned to making what they make and depending on the portion of their fan base who just nod and eat everything they're served to support it.

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#116 Apr 18 2016 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
"If you don't like it, go do something else" is not, never has been and never will be(barring monopoly) a thing that anyone who gives a **** about their company would ever say to their consumers. It's something you say because it suits your needs of having only people who blow rainbows posting their love and admiration of SE and their games.

Not true. Companies say that all the time. Just not usually that bluntly. If you walk into a Burger King and start ******** and complaining about everything, a manager will probably try to make things right for you. However, if he can't fix it to your satisfaction and you refuse to leave and keep complaining, you will probably be asked if maybe the Wendy's down the street is a better fit for you. In this case your money isn't worth the hassle.

I don't think Thayos is telling anyone to get out. I think the question here is, out of honest curiosity, if you have so many issues and don't find the game fun for the most part, then why the heck are you still here instead of playing something you do like instead?
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#117 Apr 18 2016 at 12:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think Thayos is telling anyone to get out. I think the question here is, out of honest curiosity, if you have so many issues and don't find the game fun for the most part, then why the heck are you still here instead of playing something you do like instead?


Exactly.

This isn't difficult to understand.

Quote:
It's strange that you always seem to fall back on "Filth doesn't even play XIV" though I'm here already giving reasons and support for why I don't. Even stranger, the fact that sometimes you actually agree with me.


Well, you don't -- at least not regularly. And I find it kind of strange that despite being unimpressed with the game for three years running, you're STILL lurking around this forum and criticizing the game as if you just got burned out yesterday.

I get it that you and others care about the game, but there comes a point when you need to realize this just might not ever be a game that caters to your tastes, and you might be better off completely letting go. Otherwise, why even bother with it, unless you just really love debating in the ZAM community forum?

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 12:07am by Thayos
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#118 Apr 18 2016 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
If you walk into a Burger King and start ******** and complaining about everything, a manager will probably try to make things right for you. However, if he can't fix it to your satisfaction and you refuse to leave and keep complaining, you will probably be asked if maybe the Wendy's down the street is a better fit for you. In this case your money isn't worth the hassle.


I'm only suggesting that people openly discuss what they perceive as problems just as they would discuss things they enjoy. If I get up and ***** about my food then sure, a manager might figuratively tell me to take my 5 bucks down the road. On the other hand, if 10 people stand up and voice the same concerns, that manager might actually consider a fundamental or operational issue.

Do you think that manager would tell all of us to go to Wendy's? SE boasts about 5 million players, but how many players do you think are still subscribed now? Do you think SE might consider why there is such a discrepancy between the two? If you were to cancel your subscription today, would SE ask you for feedback on why you decided to leave?

Money is always worth the hassle, especially when it's money you'd be losing because you ****** up.

Karlina wrote:
I don't think Thayos is telling anyone to get out. I think the question here is, out of honest curiosity, if you have so many issues and don't find the game fun for the most part, then why the heck are you still here instead of playing something you do like instead?

Because at their core, XIV and 'something you do like instead' are essentially the same thing. Let me go back to your previous example for clarity...

It's no secret that SE borrowed a bunch of mechanics from other games(restaurants) to improve their own. If XIV were a restaurant, their menu is modeled after other restaurants. Burgers like Burger King, fries like McDonalds and shakes like Sonic. DF like WoW, FATEs like Rifts, ect.

Why then would it make any sense to suggest that someone go elsewhere for what amounts to the same thing you're trying to provide them? Is it unfair to expect that if SE is going to use someone else recipe that it be at least as good as who it was borrowed from?
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#119 Apr 18 2016 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Ah, so your xiv statement is just opinion, since a lot of people who took breaks came back with the recent patch, which was widely praised on the OFs as one of the game's best. And SE praised xiv's performance/success in that much more recent update. I definitely see no evidence that HW was a financial loss... not even close.

Also, I don't see anything new from that interview. They've been saying for awhile now that they may do some story and lore quests, but no major new storylines. Still, anything is better than nothing.


Edited, Apr 10th 2016 6:19pm by Thayos


They said ffxi would carry on getting updates and new stories, just no new expansions.

In all honesty there is no guarantee that xiv will get any more expansions either, the last one didn't do all that well and lead to large player losses. It's a modern mmo and modern mmo gamers don't like expansions as wow and xi players did. You slice huge portions of players off each time you release one.


Edited, Apr 18th 2016 5:48am by Runespider
#120 Apr 18 2016 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
I don't think Thayos is telling anyone to get out. I think the question here is, out of honest curiosity, if you have so many issues and don't find the game fun for the most part, then why the heck are you still here instead of playing something you do like instead?


It's pretty much what he's saying.

Also, the assumption someone isn't playing a game they like seems to fall under the assumption you can only play one or the other. People play games they like all the time. The main issue is though, people in the XIV community especially loves to try to brush problems under the rug, so when someone actually talks about it, well, you see how upset they get and how defensive people tend to get, because you start making them realize there are problems.

People were very quick and HAPPY to point out all the problems they have with XI and how "horrible" of an MMORPG it is despite doing more good than bad, especially in the XIV community, but when you flip it around....well, again, you see the outcome. Simply mention "FFXI" in any XIV community and see just how quickly they essentially turn it into the Salem Witch Trials.

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Why then would it make any sense to suggest that someone go elsewhere for what amounts to the same thing you're trying to provide them? Is it unfair to expect that if SE is going to use someone else recipe that it be at least as good as who it was borrowed from?


And here's where the "power of Final Fantasy" comes into play. It's definitely no secret SE borrowed and even OPENLY admitted it t the point Yoshi stated he had the team play some version of WoW for a year during ARR's development. However...they got so much of it WRONG in comparison, you're basically saying: "Well, go play another MMO that better suits your tastes."

I mean..I load up plenty of Korean and Japanese MMOs, some even modeled after WoW that does things better than XIV. I already play MMOs I like. What purpose does it serve to ignore glaring issues and not talk about it? You can only praise a game so much before you start fooling yourself to believe there's no problems. You simply can't just let things slide.

But hey...letting things slide is why XIV hasn't changed in 3 years I mean, we even get LESS in updates nowadays and people seem to be perfectly ok with it because they like what they do get, rather than wanting SE to do more.

The simple matter of fact is: If they can manage to "do things that ps2 limitations said make it impossible" with FFXI and they can do things that DQX being "limited" by the Wii...is it really so hard to understand people's gripes with this game at that point? Rather than say: "go away" or "this game ain't for you, you actually see the problems with it and that's bad."

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 8:05am by Theonehio
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#121 Apr 18 2016 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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People were very quick and HAPPY to point out all the problems they have with XI and how "horrible" of an MMORPG it is despite doing more good than bad, especially in the XIV community, but when you flip it around....well, again, you see the outcome. Simply mention "FFXI" in any XIV community and see just how quickly they essentially turn it into the Salem Witch Trials.


What???

It's a bit tacky to be focusing on XI in a forum for XIV, but this hostility you speak of for simply mentioning XI does not exist. Especially not here. Several of us still play XI.

And no, recommending that you play a game you enjoy is literally not me telling you to "get out." You should do what makes you happy, but the choice is all yours.

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 8:05am by Thayos
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#122 Apr 18 2016 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
People were very quick and HAPPY to point out all the problems they have with XI and how "horrible" of an MMORPG it is despite doing more good than bad, especially in the XIV community, but when you flip it around....well, again, you see the outcome. Simply mention "FFXI" in any XIV community and see just how quickly they essentially turn it into the Salem Witch Trials.


What???

It's a bit tacky to be focusing on XI in a forum for XIV


FFXI - Developed by Squaresoft(Enix)
FFXIV - Developed by Square Enix

Both shared largely the same development members. Both are Final Fantasy Titles. Final Fantasy ONLINE titles. How is it tacky to draw comparisons let alone a conversation about 2 MMOs by the same company? It's a different story if you're constantly comparing it to WoW (like people did with XI after WoW launched, saying it would kill it etc etc.)

Oh and the "hostility" does exist, you just choose to ignore it. All it takes is going to the OF and seeing it play out when someone mentions it. The hostility existed here too, you seen exactly what happened with Hyanmen. Don't even lie to yourself.

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 8:08am by Theonehio
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#123 Apr 18 2016 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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How is it tacky to draw comparisons let alone a conversation about 2 MMOs by the same company?


Because other than their names and the appearance of the base races they really have very little in common?

Gameplay-wise they're nothing alike. They're practically in different genres.

It's the reason the Dragon Quest online game and Wakfu don't get those same comparisons... they're MMOs made by SE... why not constantly compare them to FFXIV? Because it doesn't make any sense to do that.

Edited, Apr 18th 2016 10:42am by Callinon
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#124 Apr 18 2016 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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How is it tacky to draw comparisons let alone a conversation about 2 MMOs by the same company?


It's not tacky to draw mentions and make occasional comparisons; I do it plenty myself, as do most of us. On the other hand, it is tacky to harp on XI or create XI threads that don't really have much of a place in a XIV community.

And no, there's not outright hostility toward FFXI. I've made several XIV/XI comparisons on the OFs without backlash. And others have made plenty of XI mentions here without backlash.

EDIT: I'm actually going to lock this thread. It started out as a thread asking for four-man grind EXPing in XIV, and it has turned into... well, whatever this is.



Edited, Apr 18th 2016 8:45am by Thayos
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