I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

This is very very true. We managed to do Dynamis entirely through text in XI, and Limbus, even with new people, because the nature of combat and the nature of the raids themselves allowed us to take our time explaining things before we ever got in, and to have plenty of time to run to safety during one-shot moves (like Citadel Buster in Limbus.) However, we used Skype for Salvage, because it was way easier for one person to yell out who got what cell (to unlock gear slots) mid-combat than it was to try to type it, since so many cells were flying.

The only fight that has anything close to the remote hecticness of an Ex fight in XIV would be Dynamis Lord, which generally had to be done in under two minutes or else it was a wipe. That fight's major difficulties stemmed from the complexity of tasks and the sheer lag you'd encounter with 20-64 people trying to beat him down.

We're on Ventrilo now for our Coil catch up work, and thankfully our raid leader Dancing Skylark (Kelly) is amazingly soothing and patient and everyone in our group is at least 30+ and totally willing to admit when they screwed up.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2015 9:41am by Catwho

So switch to Lamia and join us.

I forgot that my folks left behind an iphone to chat with the grandkid. I might be able to get ventrillo to work on that since it doesn't work on any of my tablets. I had fun filling the 8th slot for T8, I would love to run T9 again with my actual FC instead of someone else's.

Wait I have not looked into this stuff but it requires a FC air ship ?.. Well there is content some wont be able to do..

Laverda I would love too but Tes has a house and she loves it. I had to get up at 2 in the morning to purchase it for here when land became available and it was the exact spot she wanted. I dont think there is land available anywhere anymore. Another thing bumming us out we both paid for it and I can not use the garden or stable.

I hope so, that would be great.. Any link?

They talked about it in one of the live letters a few weeks ago.

There has to be reward though or why would anyone bother doing it? This is true of pretty much everything. It's easy to say "do it because it's fun" or "do it for the experience" and things like that, but that only works in the short term. It's not so obvious in FFXIV where you actually do get rewards for things, but look back at FFXI. Doing dynamis or killing a HNM or god or whatever is a cool experience the first few times, but the novelty wears off fast and if you don't get any gear you start wondering why you keep bothering to show up.

It's true of everything though, not just games. I mean, I enjoy my day job, but if they stopped paying me I wouldn't keep working there anyway just because.

I wasn't arguing that it was the correct way. There really is no correct way, but the way it's done is the way that steps on the fewest toes. The historical examples of players who actually raid complaining about players who don't raid wearing similar gear is there.


I completely agree, though possibly not for the same reasons. My stance is that enjoyment should motivate players to content and rewards should just be icing so to speak.

Also, whether or not players participate for enjoyment or simply for rewards isn't exclusive to any particular progression model. I participated in dynamis for 8 years because I enjoyed it. That's beyond obtaining all of the AF2 and accessories I wanted as well as my relic. I didn't keep track, but there were so many players who received a certain item or completed an AF2 set that left immediately and never returned. There were also a good number of players who participated solely because their split of the currency sold was a steady income.

This still begs the question, why would a player who doesn't raid want to collect gear for the purpose of raiding? If you aren't a raider then I would imagine you find enjoyment in the other activities you participate in. If everyone was running around in raid gear, other events would be trivialized to the point of being almost inconsequential. If players wanted non-raid content to be challenging it would have to be scaled up to raid-like difficulty which brings us back around... why wouldn't you just raid at that point?

Not only is the MMO genre droll, but it embraces being droll. Nay, it goes as far as wearing it as a cloak. A Cloak of Drollness. +1. And it's a glorious trophy that acknowledges that you worked with people you can barely stand for a thousand hours trying to beat the same damn boss over and over until you got the damn cloak!

And I have to ask: If you change that...

...what do you really have left?

I don't climb that mountain anymore, but I wouldn't take it away from the people who do climb it. They climb it because it's there. Offering free helicopter rides to the top is only cheating people of having the challenge and the acknowledgement that goes with it.

I think SE realized that only a small percentage of players were actually experiencing the game's raids, and they realized it was largely a waste of effort to create content that was barely used... while meanwhile, so many people are eager for more content they can actually participate in.

You can't just go and raid in FFXIV if you want to. Well, you can... but it will be a huge waste of time, and that isn't fun. Because of the heavily scripted insta-death mechanics, the only way to really do raiding in this game is to have the time to devote to a static. If you don't have that time, then raiding quickly becomes the opposite of fun, and it usually ends in frustration. That's not the kind of user experience SE wants... and I think that's a big reason for the creation of story mode. At least now the Alexander content isn't a wasted effort, and it's yet another progression path people can use for glamor or to gear up other jobs.

Like Hyrist said, this new content looks like just another avenue for endgame -- and that's awesome. Perhaps this content structure will allow them to add in more quests/NMs/features to keep people busy without having to design entirely new dungeons, which could give people significantly more to do. For an example of what I'm talking about, check out reviews of Destiny's latest expansion, The Taken King, which I'm currently cracking out on. It's flat-out awesome how deeply Bungie breathed life into the game with this one expansion... and all they added was one new map.

Honestly, it just seems the ones who dislike raiding seem to be actually the ones attacking that "argument" more than anything.

Simple question:

Do you need ilvl200 to beat World of Darkness, that has had no nerfs or changes to it as of yet? Do you need ilvl200 to beat Labyrinth and Syrcus Tower?

FFXIV is the only MMO with the only community that appears to assume top gear should be accessible even if you're not doing content that relates to it. in WoW I'm not getting the best gear if I'm doing low tier stuff. Logical. in GW2 I'm not getting the best gear if I'm only doing story mode. Logical. In XI I'm not getting the best gear if I'm only buying it through Records of Eminence or from the AH. Logical. in PSO2 I'm not getting the best gear if I'm only doing content on easy and not touching the boss Emergency Quests on Very Hard. Logical.

Why would one need "raid gear" (something yoshi also calls it on streams at times) if you're not raiding?

"Not falling behind the curve"

If you're not touching Savage Alexander, it's virtually impossible to fall behind when they tune the content to be clearable by the bare minimum to maintain accessibility of the content. Voidark requires only Law gear at best. Alexander Normal requires only Law gear at bare minimum. None of the dungeons will require anything above Law gear and will not drop anything above i190. If you just joined with Heavenswards it would make sense, but people who actually played since 2.0 already know the pattern and formula. If you don't like raiding, that's cool..I won't say the "deserve" word...but realistically...look at any other MMORPG, especially if it's vertical progression. Do you get the better gear by NOT raiding?

"I want the 210 esoterics for glamour"

Ok. It's related to raids as of now - Do the raids, get the upgrade materials. Simple. If you can't or don't want to..you won't get what you want. Is that not a simple concept to grasp? If that's a problem do this:

Complain to SE that they release dyable versions of gear only AFTER you upgrade it or obtained from the harder raids. They use it as an incentive, when every other MMO lets you dye gear to your content regardless of acquisition.



This. And as said, if Yoshida doesn't want the system to fail or fall flat, it can't have a huge gap where you will never get good gear or equivillent. If it's ilvl 200-210, look at other ilvl 200-210 gear, it can't be inferior to those. Welcome to vertical progression. Welcome to "balanced" itemization. You can't have alternate paths when the sole design philosophy was to "keep things moving forward."

So the tl;dr version:

If you're not doing hard raids that requires a high ilvl gearset, you do not need high ilvl gear, ever unless yoshida changes his stance on XIV's design, which obviously, he will not because 3.0 is 2.0 all over again. HW was the perfect chance to breathe fresh air into the game..and it's more like the recycle process where we're now breathing in carbon dioxide.

Unless it's specifically tagged as "hard raid content" in the light of Binding Coil or Savage Alexander, you will never fall behind because NO CONTENT will ever be tuned to needing the "High tier Tomestone" gear. If you want gear for glamour but it's gated behind raids in some fashion, do the raids or find something else. It's a bit silly to say: "I deserve/want this so you go find something else" only to essentially tell people who tell you the same that their views are incorrect. This is why despite the "highly requested storymode" only a tiny bit of people actually did it if this game does indeed have a sizable playerbase -- however if they "wasted resources" on end-game content..they're wasting resources on dungeons too when all they need to do is just load up the Mogstation - Supply it with gear to buy if glamour and such is "what people want" -- profit. Far less resources spent and they'll make far more profit.

I'm all for more content (because this game is definitely dry of content) especially if it can be alternate paths...but XIV isn't known for such and won't be known for such or after 2 years they would have done it by now. It's vertical progression and heavily "either/or"..so once you see that Voyages drop a Metallic Gold High Allagan Coat of fending with superior stats to the Savage Alexander body...guess what happens? "I HATE RAIDS!" people will be happy and "I like raids!....but I have no reason to do raids when I can do this **** easy content for better gear" people will once again wonder what the point of raid content is.

The whole issue, to be honest, is simply Alexander. If they didn't release the same version of the raid with more mechanics and a different gearset, it would be fine since even Second Coil and Second Coil Savage was fine..but Alexander Savage is an entirely separate raid..based on a previous.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 5:28am by Theonehio

Moot point. There is no one populating either of these two raids. Period. But to entertain the question, if it were at all possible to low-man these dungeons, you likely WOULD need them. And even if you did not, higher performance means less people required. To clear.



It's a simple concept to grasp, it's also *********

Let me turn the question on its head. What is the difference between a rise in ilvl of a party, and the use of the Echo buff? Each increase the statistical performance of a Raid group, without any relation to the actual execution and skill of the raid itself.

So then why is it that the Raid rewards this false sense of accomplishment with more statistical advantages?

Arguing the ease of the game is a complete and utter straw-man when trying to debate my principles on the matter. It has nothing to do with the two key points of why I say it's fundamentally flawed.

- Gearchecking is an artificial level of difficulty. Content should be capable of being cleared with entry-level requirements - NOT restricted to items that drop exclusively from within that content itself. No content since Second Coil has been that way, so this is not a problem with Alexander, it's a fundamental disagreement I have with the system of raiding.

- The rewards system within highest-difficulty content itself should substantiate itself beyond the Progression expiration date. To do that, it must separate itself from the typical progression path.

Period, done deal. Those are opinions, not argument-able facts or debatable concepts. I like raiding aside from those two points - I'm literally waiting for a friend to get Raid-ready before attempting to gather a static. But I've never agreed with the self-depreciating system surrounding it.

Arguing 'needs' and 'wants' when it comes to gearing types of content is pointless - that can always be adjusted with battle tuning. Complaining that a piece of content is too easy, or too rewarding is a flimsy argument to be making when at the same time defending a portion of the game to not have parts of its system to be changed because "I like Raiding and you don't" which was a bad assumption make to begin with. I can like something and still be critical of it. It's just shocking to people that I can be critical because I'm not often critical of the game.

For me, Raiding should be a skill challenge. Gear checks take away from that for me. And the way MMO's bait content with gear progression comes off as shallow, especially when the gear obtained within it expires as soon as the content does. There is zero longevity of any sort. In this sense the 210 gear is as pointless to the raiders as it is to those who don't. By the time 3.2 comes out, Raiders will be needing 230 and even casual players will have 210 via currency/Void Ark anyways.

Which is why the argument against Airship Exploration's RNG falls flat - We're already going to be getting 210 gear from currency pieces that drop out of Void Ark anyways. What's the difference between the luck of a draw in winning a lot on an upgrade piece that's guaranteed to drop verses something that may drop may be the ilvl, may have the stats you want off of content we don't even know the difficulty level of?

So to Summarize, the following is an Opinion:

"Hardest content." Shouldn't be about the gear, not when it's just being recycled anyways. It should be only about execution, and it should reward better than pieces of 'best' gear that just cycle out. The content can still be made desirable off a different reward system which I feel is worth exploring.

For this, I feel that a reward system containing items that do not involve around artificially improving the performance of an already accomplished group is appropriate, especially when it just gets filtered out. I feel that there should be greater emphasis on more permanent rewards and accomplishments that provide other benefits for the individuals and the group they represent. Right now the gear that drops amounts to glamour gear past the relevancy period of the content. I feel they can expand beyond that in ways that aren't tied simply to your equipment slots, especially considering gear-bloating is a big issue now. (As mentioned previously, changes in attack/spell/skill/limit break partical effects is one idea. Perhaps unique airship parts is another. There is a lot that can be explored here that simply isn't.)

In my opinion: The entropic concept of "You Raid Gear for Raids." is about as redundant and broken as "You Need PvP Gear to PvP" - for which I am glad SE did away with that concept for PvP (In spite of the other problems it has.) I feel the concept of gearing can be an adventure on its own with multiple parts to equivalent results and should all be a part of a previous 'preparation' phase before tackling challenge content. Vertical progression can still be maintained in this preparation phase, and SE's beloved "easy" content can be reserved to this phase of content.

The game's difficult content then can be tuned specifically to this clear bar of gearing designed to challenge players who wish to conquer them for accomplishments and rewards of a different kind. I feel as if bragging rights and accomplishments will come off of things such as these specific rewards as well as perhaps arcade-like elements (such as a point system that rewards bonuses for tracking specific objectives and challenges) within the Raid content itself.

I acknowledge that all above is simply my philosophy, with little to no chance of being implemented in the game. It is simply what I would do in their position to liven and broaden endgame. In the end it has little bearing of my enjoyment of the game as is. We're just stumbling across my philosophy because we began discussing gearing philosophies of what 'should' and 'shouldn't' happen - which is purely the realm of opinion.

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About what is actually happening:

People can have their sour grapes. There's nothing to be done about it. I'm happy for the new content that's coming out and a broadening of the concept of endgame. That Raiding is not the only end-all pursuit to play this game for. At this point, I have a feeling that the most difficult parts of Exploration Missions will be about as difficult as raiding. But the pretense on how it's done is different completely, which makes me happy.

It's not as if I want to avoid difficult content - but I want more than one kind of challenge. People arguing that Raiding should be the end-all-be-all of endgame and gearing won't find an agreement with me. That does not mean I disrespect their opinion. I just don't agree. I think we're missing an opportunity to make the game better, even for those who enjoy raiding as is, and that it could be worth the shot of trying. That said even if Raiding was done the way I described in my opinion above, I would want a broader endgame than just a singular raid for challenge content.

I am excited to see that this desire seems to be met. People can speculate otherwise, that's fine. We're in the speculation phase for a bit under two months. I don't view anyone less for disagreeing with this philosophy. I realize that MMOs have been done a certain way for a long time and a lot of people are comfortable with that. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have ideas and thoughts of my own, including what I like and dislike about current and coming content.

Also, I'm with Catwho, I'm such a fashion ***** in this game >.>

Edited, Sep 23rd 2015 12:52pm by Hyrist