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#252 Mar 28 2016 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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You literally only have to go to the official forums to see that the biggest concern to the general playerbase isn't "Please fix this game's content!" but "Why do the Japanese get exclusive Maid/Butler Glamour" or "Glamour Glamour Glamour!"


This isn't true.

The thread you're referencing isn't popular because "OMG GLAMOR," it's popular because people don't like it when others get special items/treatment. And SE has a long history of favoring Japanese players in various ways (which personally doesn't bother me, given that SE is a Japanese company).

There are currently threads on the first page about iLevels, job structures, player etiquette and other topics.

Glamor/screenshot threads hang around because they're fun and lighthearted, and people like posting their pictures and showing off -- pretty much the same reasons why Facebook, Instagram and Twitter have legs.

Don't confuse fun conversation for "this is what players want developers to spend the most time on."
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#253 Mar 28 2016 at 1:15 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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You literally only have to go to the official forums to see that the biggest concern to the general playerbase isn't "Please fix this game's content!" but "Why do the Japanese get exclusive Maid/Butler Glamour" or "Glamour Glamour Glamour!"


This isn't true.

The thread you're referencing isn't popular because "OMG GLAMOR,"


It is. You never see the same amount of outcry when it's regarding in-game content that's locked off. For example instead of waiting weeks upon weeks, you never seen large near 20+ page topics of "why should we have to wait 7+ weeks to a full update cycle to get a weapon raiders can get by doing 2 floors of Midas Savage." That too is a type of exclusivity. It's no secret people care more for glamour in this game. It wouldn't be a "running joke" if even SE themselves essentially support that mindset (look at how some of the better looking armor tend to be the most useless pieces of gear to obtain due to the ilvl.)

Quote:
Don't confuse fun conversation for "this is what players want developers to spend the most time on."


Except it's fairly obvious when that's what get more traction, as even stated in live letter banter, than actual topics of concern. There's plenty of topics everywhere about game mechanics, but no where near as much discussion because, as said, people are far too quick to try to silence, even on these forums.

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And SE has a long history of favoring Japanese players in various ways (which personally doesn't bother me, given that SE is a Japanese company).


They don't favor anyone - It's easier to focus on your home playerbase, much like western companies do exactly the same thing people seem to forget about.

Edited, Mar 28th 2016 12:16pm by Theonehio
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#254 Mar 28 2016 at 1:38 PM Rating: Excellent
No Hio, it's not.

Don't confuse fun things to talk about with how players want the game to improve long-term.
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#255 Mar 28 2016 at 3:08 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
No Hio, it's not.

Don't confuse fun things to talk about with how players want the game to improve long-term.


Except..the "fun things to talk about" as you put it has more discussion and less silencing than actual improvement discussions, especially if you don't beat around the bush. So no, nothing is being confused at all, just seeing it for what it is. I guarantee if someone start a topic saying with any honesty how they feel about the game's content and how it could improve, they'll get attacked and called haters or people will twist their words so much the original meaning is lost. You clearly post and browse the OF, don't even say you've never seen that happen. Bonus points if they reference any newly released MMO or even older MMO that has more fluid systems and they get told to "go play x MMO"..which too happens here. So you sure it's not what's happening?

So no, there's no confusion happening. "Confusing" something would be to cite the "Eorzea's Next Top Model" semi-contest or the "Screenshot thread", that's clearly "fun discussions", but the fact most discussions regarding glamour gear (Lightning gear for example) always strikes up more traction than "how about some more varied content?" type threads..should tell you all you need to know. It's no secret people care more for glamour; Things don't become running jokes in the community for no reason you know, especially when SE supports it. I mean, how did "Glamour is the real end-game" become a thing..if it's imaginary? Non-existent? Not happening? ****, it's a meme because that's what you end up spending most of your time doing in this game and people who don't play the game or keep up with it will very likely say either:

"Oh that ****** game from 6 years ago?"

or

"Oh that relaunched game?"

or

"Oh that dress up game?"

They don't even mean anything negative by the last one...searching XIV you're bound to land on hot discussions (for forum/reddit results) which happens to be the screenshot/glamour topics, so it would lead one to believe that's a focus.

I mean, take Urth's Fount for example - That could have been an amazing fight against Odin that drops weapons for all classes and even the start of the "Primal Armor" line..but no, it dropped glamour gear...that you can't even use (and shouldn't use if you're even in that fight to begin with.) That's one of the bigger examples because it's content designed and developed specifically for glamour, per request (people wanted more classes to have the "odin gear".)

Though if by "players want the game to improve long-term" by the massive amounts of nerfs that happen in both PvE and PvP due to player feedback..I guess you're right. I mean, look at how MCH is next on the chopping block PvP because people don't know how to fight against a good MCH. That's certainly "improvement" in a system. Trust me..I know the difference between "fun things to talk about" and "actual discussion"..the anger towards the 7-11 event in Japan isn't a "fun thing to talk about", people truly are upset they can't have those glamour items.

Why else would people be upset? They sure as hell don't care about the $1.25 Coca Colas at Japanese 7-11s. The "I can't have it" definitely is part of it..but..if it's not about the glamour items (and white fat chocobo)...then...? Why would it even be a problem if supposedly, it's just "fun things to talk about" and not something people care about? Does that simply just mean..people are greedy? Still believe their sub does more than just grant access to the game? I'm honestly curious because what a lot of people have been interpreting that topic even on the Japanese side (it's been cross posted) is people just really want the maid outfit.

Remember, I do have a character on Balmung, one of the most populated NA servers so I see "the other side of Eorzea." I'm a max level crafter in 4 crafts and 3 specialists. I promise you I've made far more money and requests regarding glamour gear than I have actual gear people use in raids (Eikon for example.)


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#256 Mar 28 2016 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guarantee if someone start a topic saying with any honesty how they feel about the game's content and how it could improve, they'll get attacked and called haters or people will twist their words so much the original meaning is lost.


Because what's the point of repetitive "places with sand"-fests that don't serve any purpose?

Regardless, those threads aren't "silenced." Those discussions tend to linger for days, and people go back-and-forth -- just like we do on this forum.

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I promise you I've made far more money and requests regarding glamour gear than I have actual gear people use in raids (Eikon for example.)


That's because most people in this game have no interest in hardcore raiding. Only a very small percentage of players do these raids, let alone push into them early enough that they need to use crafted gear.

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Trust me..I know the difference between "fun things to talk about" and "actual discussion"..the anger towards the 7-11 event in Japan isn't a "fun thing to talk about", people truly are upset they can't have those glamour items.


You seem confused by what I said earlier, which may be my fault. Let me sort this out into two different thoughts:

- The "fun things to talk about" are the typical glamor/marriage/modeling threads.

- The "it's unfair that JP players get this and we don't" is more like a viral one-time Facebook discussion. It's getting hits now because people love arguing, and this is a controversial subject among NA gamers that, for years, is guaranteed to get responses.

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I mean, how did "Glamour is the real end-game" become a thing..if it's imaginary?


It's a joke, like when people say the only things that are certain in life are death and taxes. It's not supposed to be literal.

Glamor is a big part of this game, for sure. I've pursued certain pieces of gear just for the sake of glamor, as have many other players. But you're insinuating that Glamor is at the center for how people want FFXIV to grow and develop -- or that Glamor changes are the focus of most people's progression -- and that's completely false, and even you MUST know that.

Time is the only thing that separates most people in this game. Casual players have less time, hardcore players have more time. Most of us are driven by the same goals, and we want the game to allow us to pursue those goals. That's why there's such a disconnect at endgame right now; there's not enough of it that connects with most of the game's players. Hence why we joke about glamor being endgame.

If you think about it, we're actually laughing with you. We're all on the same team on this.

Edited, Mar 28th 2016 3:38pm by Thayos
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#257 Mar 28 2016 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
I guess for me personally, it doesn't help that I log on after 5 months and first thing everyone wants to do is pony farm. Followed by I want to run X thing to get this piece of gear for my glamour. This would all be fine and dandy if it was coming from newer content, but no, it's running old content over and over. There's not a whole lot of fun in steam rolling older content, and these people I play with are lacking the skill the do anything moderately new and challenging. I suppose I could try to find new friends/LS/FC, but it usually takes awhile to gain some trusts and run these things consistently.
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#258 Mar 28 2016 at 4:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess for me personally, it doesn't help that I log on after 5 months and first thing everyone wants to do is pony farm.


That's because farming mounts is one of the few things groups of friends can do in this game while actually working toward something other than tomes. And you don't need EXACTLY EIGHT PEOPLE to do it.

Like I said above, there is a HUGE disconnect between the bulk of this game's players and endgame content they'd actually like to do. People don't have time for archaic eight-man hardcore raids with insta-death jump rope mechanics.

Edited, Mar 28th 2016 3:45pm by Thayos
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#259 Mar 28 2016 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
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I guess for me personally, it doesn't help that I log on after 5 months and first thing everyone wants to do is pony farm.


That's because farming mounts is one of the few things groups of friends can do in this game while actually working toward something other than tomes. And you don't need EXACTLY EIGHT PEOPLE to do it.

Like I said above, there is a HUGE disconnect between the bulk of this game's players and endgame content they'd actually like to do. People don't have time for archaic eight-man hardcore raids with insta-death jump rope mechanics.

Edited, Mar 28th 2016 3:45pm by Thayos


Dah well, the game's obviously just not for me right now. That's completely fine, I'll keep checking it out with free logins and go from there. On the bright side, I have hammered out a ton of single player games, and put an abundance of time into SFV.
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#260 Mar 28 2016 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
I've been keeping up my FFXIV despite a slug of freelance work, taxes, family/friend time and what's left of the ski season. Fortunately, the tax season is winding down, so I'm hoping to start a new single-player game soon. I just got FFXIII-3 for cheap on Steam... played just a little bit, but already don't like it. Not sure how long I'll stick with it... which is sad, because I actually enjoyed the storylines from XIII-1/2.
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#261 Mar 28 2016 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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I suspect the gameplay threads either get locked or died off because people get much more ugly about what they want out of it. I'm personally hitting the point where I refuse to try and correct anyone who attempts to employ welfare rhetoric when talking MMO activities. They're typically not interested in finding that middle ground or assuming people just want whatever for nothing. They also like to argue that just because they do something, someone else can too. We've argued time and again around here that no two individuals' lives are the same, as well as the circumstances surrounding their gaming activity. There's really only so much, "These games could be so much more..." to be said, yet it's perpetually held back by arguments rooted in ego.

Otherwise, getting super specific about some new event or whatever you'd like to see is typically folly since devs don't mingle enough even with the language barrier isn't a thing. Imagine someone drew up a map of a new dungeon, monsters, bosses, gave them various abilities, mechanics for the bosses, and then the look of related loot. What'll happen? Some will like it, giving it the thumbs up, saying something like, "SE should do this!" while you'll get some who won't like it, or will just be a **** and shoot it down because they can. No matter how popular the suggestion, it's unlikely SE will act on it. Heck, remember when people wanted XI Kings poppable? Took years to finally do it, but by then, they were also largely antiquated. I'm pretty much a walking textbook of this activity relative to RDM, too, including people making it their personal mission to try and discredit and run me out. Hio even did it above, but it's not like it's the first time. Either way, we wanted options, not a WHM-1 or a class held back because Utsusemi was exploited to hell and back.
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#262 Mar 28 2016 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Like I said above, there is a HUGE disconnect between the bulk of this game's players and endgame content they'd actually like to do. People don't have time for archaic eight-man hardcore raids with insta-death jump rope mechanics.

Edited, Mar 28th 2016 3:45pm by Thayos


Ironically the fact they constantly try to push people back towards outdated, obsolete and unnecessary content in order to obtain (clearly glamour, minions and mounts) would make it more archaic than the actual, you know, newly designed content. So if "people don't have time" for the new content, but plenty of time to keep happily farming obsolete content for "new items"..there indeed is a disconnect somewhere.

Seriha wrote:
Hio even did it above, but it's not like it's the first time. Either way, we wanted options, not a WHM-1 or a class held back because Utsusemi was exploited to **** and back.


Or...because when you invited a RDM to end-game content I can promise you people weren't inviting you for your melee prowess but most likely, you know..your enfeebling, amazing crowd control and support abilities. Especially coupled with a SCH and Geomancer. Trust me, as much as I loved RDM, it's like trying to invite a BLM for scythe weaponskills, completely ignoring what they truly bring to a party.



Edited, Mar 28th 2016 9:47pm by Theonehio
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#263 Mar 29 2016 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Here we go, approaching the game only through the lens of the end-gamer. You lose any and all possibility of objectivity when you come right out and say you don't see the point.

But here's the thing, XI has a lot of time under its belt. That time has seen changes in both the efficacy and community perception of RDM. When we're talking around 2004, we look at a job people thought was the superior WHM because of Refresh and Convert, to the point WHMs were ostracized despite their ability to keep up if you knew a good one. And this persisted for years. Apathy toward being Refresh hos also rose up from this, especially if shoveled into a mage party.

So, let's look at enfeebling next. Until T2 merits, the class pretty much shared everything with either WHM or BLM and this relationship concluded even more toward XI's twilight. However, the T2's came at a cost, to the point most had to pick one and try to be happy with it. Of course, we can't forget massive resistances or even the phases of outright immunity, enforcing /BLM with Elemental Seal if something could be landed. Our allegedly higher enfeebling MACC didn't mean much in the end when faced with these foes. Personally, I'd make a case that BLM was superior at crowd control with the ability to layer Sleepgas, with SCH coming in second via faster Bingdas, Gravigas, or even Sleepgas through stratagems, too. For being the alleged enfeebler class, we had no unique enfeebles for ages. BLU got stuff we didn't have access to, even.

In time, WHM got its buffs and better secured its position as the go-to healer. RDM fell behind as a nuker with SCH and eventually GEO. PUP even had some time. BLU even had a nice nuking niche there with Abyssea and Charged Whisker, nor is it doing all that terribly these days, either. The melee you're so quick to denigrate never really was on the table precisely because it didn't get the attention it needed to be both viable and accepted even though myself and others were persistently trying to get SE to acknowledge that things could be done to make it work. It became a running gag among a number of us that whenever the RDM community did come up with a good idea, it frequently wound up on another job or as the basis of one. Melee fueling enfeebles? Dancer. Nukes triggering SCs? Scholar. The ability to AoE single-target buffs? BLU then SCH. Nukes that also apply debuffs? Christ.

Nonetheless, I won't deny RDM is better served as enfeebler today than it was a decade ago. The downside is in order to pull that off, you have to farm a heck of a lot of job points in an environment people don't want RDM for. The game being unfriendly to melees, then and now, isn't a fault of RDMs directly. That's a product of the TP feed system, mobs being overtuned, and said overtuned abilities not having use cooldowns. Trust me, there was no shortage of people trying to tell a RDM they shouldn't melee. It seemed like the job everyone mysteriously knew how to play, but very few actually wanted to. So, shame on those who wanted to make it more fun, more appealing, more unique, and ideally more effective.

After all, SCH wound up everything the backline RDMs wanted and more. They were usually just too preoccupied trying to put us down to realize it, or maybe too proud to after so long. The myth of a super OP class where everyone would play it and all others would rot if we got our way was always just that, a myth. It's as if people forgot things like skill levels, caps, weapons, and other gear access weren't a thing. Or stuff like MP costs, durations, valid targets, and then some. Jack of all trades, suck at them all, indeed. Whee hybrid sabotage~
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#264 Mar 29 2016 at 1:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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So if "people don't have time" for the new content, but plenty of time to keep happily farming obsolete content for "new items"..there indeed is a disconnect somewhere.


You do understand that the time and commitment required to pony farm is the smallest fraction of a fraction of what's needed for hardcore raiding, right?

I know you are a hardcore player, but you really struggle to identify with the game's core audience.
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#265 Mar 29 2016 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
So if "people don't have time" for the new content, but plenty of time to keep happily farming obsolete content for "new items"..there indeed is a disconnect somewhere.


You do understand that the time and commitment required to pony farm is the smallest fraction of a fraction of what's needed for hardcore raiding, right?

I know you are a hardcore player, but you really struggle to identify with the game's core audience.


Even I agree with this, you can hammer out a ton of whatever EX primal for ponies over one hour. If you try to spend only an hour on Savage (especially when learning), you won't make any headway. Most groups seem to dedicate 3 hours 2-3 times a week on savage. This obviously becomes less as you know the fight and gear up, but still, the time commitment is there. Pony farming you could do once a week for one hour and walk away with a few ponies.

My guess is, until they do a massive overhaul of the combat/ability system, they won't be able to make challenging lower man content. XI had moderately difficult low man content, not sure why XIV can't pull it off. Heck some of the 3-6 BCNMs required some pretty good planning, so it's a shame XIV can't do the same. Because really, what is the point of these 4 man dungeons anymore? The story ones, sure...I kind of get the point, but the rest, they offer up 0 challenge. They're not even fun anymore other than that first run through to see the environment.
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#266 Mar 29 2016 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Here we go, approaching the game only through the lens of the end-gamer. You lose any and all possibility of objectivity when you come right out and say you don't see the point.


It's funny you accuse people of discrediting you when ...the very first thing you do is accuse someone of only looking at the game in one way. You do realize "End-Game" is usually the largest portion of an MMORPG..right? Or else there's a lack of content if when you hit level cap....you have nothing to do or no reason to actually be level capped.

As for the rest of your post, trust me. I understand, but you also have to realize a game that heavily uses end-game for its progression and "side content" for things you do either just because or "gil fountain!" people are going to look more at what a job brings to the content. Why do you think "Under Observation" was heavily RDM dependent? It's THE job that was able to make something that could be extremely hard into something managable. (It wasn't an auto win button, the RDM kiter still had to be good.)

ESPECIALLY in FFXI which revolved around it's end-game. I played XI since 2001 beta..trust me, I seen and experienced the game as a whole.

Thayos wrote:
Quote:
So if "people don't have time" for the new content, but plenty of time to keep happily farming obsolete content for "new items"..there indeed is a disconnect somewhere.


You do understand that the time and commitment required to pony farm is the smallest fraction of a fraction of what's needed for hardcore raiding, right?

I know you are a hardcore player, but you really struggle to identify with the game's core audience.


I don't struggle to identify anything and it's highly ironic I get accused of that despite the fact I have every pony and bird (aside seph due to RNG) which means I probably understand it better than you do, considering I do all of this game's content. Even when I say exactly how things are it boils down to: "You're a hardcore raider, you don't understand the game at all." Which ironically, in order to "hardcore raids" (that don't exist in XIV btw) you have to have gear that comes from the "easy content."

Once SE introduces hardcore raiding, it will indeed be more of a time commitment than dealing with low drop rates on obsolete content. However the only people who do anything "hardcore" in this game are the ones who push for world first, otherwise "Savage" isn't really hardcore, it's just the original fight (as per yoship's own words) before they remove mechanics for the "hard/normal" version. It's higher ilvl content so of course things hit harder.

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Even I agree with this, you can hammer out a ton of whatever EX primal for ponies over one hour. If you try to spend only an hour on Savage (especially when learning), you won't make any headway. Most groups seem to dedicate 3 hours 2-3 times a week on savage. This obviously becomes less as you know the fight and gear up, but still, the time commitment is there. Pony farming you could do once a week for one hour and walk away with a few ponies.


Funnily enough, before they increased pony drop rate, you could do ex primals for 7 hours straight or even 1-4 months and not see even so much as nightmare, that's actually worse than people who did the "oh so hardcore" Binding Coil, Second Coil and Final Coil. You could spend an hour and blow through Final Coil 1-3 and actually walk out with something compared to the 7 hours of grinding Ifrit Ex and not see even 1 pony. So this is exactly why when I make content comparison, it's more from the design aspect. Savage only takes awhile to learn because of one hit mechanics and the fact you're not introduced to ANY of the actual mechanics in normal/"hard" mode, same with ex primals. So you will always have to spend time learning stuff that's completely foreign to you.

Like I'm pretty damn sure in Midas 1 Normal people were wondering what the blue and green syringes did.

Quote:
My guess is, until they do a massive overhaul of the combat/ability system, they won't be able to make challenging lower man content. XI had moderately difficult low man content, not sure why XIV can't pull it off. Heck some of the 3-6 BCNMs required some pretty good planning, so it's a shame XIV can't do the same. Because really, what is the point of these 4 man dungeons anymore? The story ones, sure...I kind of get the point, but the rest, they offer up 0 challenge. They're not even fun anymore other than that first run through to see the environment.


This pretty much. The problem is YoshiP is terrified of people "excluding" players, even though he continues to ironically create content that hinders casters natively. No matter what you do, Savage or Ex Primals, especially the newer branch of ex primals, the fact they're so movement heavy renders BLM and BRD/MCH obsolete in DPS checks unless they're damn good at the dance.
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#267 Mar 29 2016 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ironically the fact they constantly try to push people back towards outdated, obsolete and unnecessary content in order to obtain (clearly glamour, minions and mounts) would make it more archaic than the actual, you know, newly designed content.


So when I run old raids on WoW to farm rare mounts... it's because I don't want to do the current content? It couldn't be because I can do the mount runs on my own schedule either by myself or with one or two friends and not 19 other people?

There's also a ton of irony in specifically you saying this when you jump up and down on FFXIV's vertical system for making old content obsolete. Clearly it isn't if people are still doing it.
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#268 Mar 29 2016 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't struggle to identify anything and it's highly ironic I get accused of that despite the fact I have every pony and bird (aside seph due to RNG) which means I probably understand it better than you do, considering I do all of this game's content. Even when I say exactly how things are it boils down to: "You're a hardcore raider, you don't understand the game at all."


Are you referring to anyone in specific with that quote? Because I certainly never said that, nor have I seen anyone here say that.

You're right; there are things about the game's design that you definitely understand more than I'll likely ever be able to. And that's because I can't do the hardcore raiding that you do, because I don't have the time and can't realistically make a static work with such strict RL scheduling needs.

But outside of the small bubble of endgame raiding, you and I are equal. And I stand by my actual statement that you're out of touch with the bulk of this game's playerbase. In fact, the entire first part of your rebuttal quote above kind of proves my point. You're such a hardcore player that you've already blown through EVERYTHING. Of course you have!

Want to know a secret? Most players aren't even as hardcore about the casual stuff as you are. Smiley: lol

Pretty much everything you say here is from the viewpoint of this bored/dissatisfied hardcore player who has just run out of things to do. Which is why I always wonder, and still wonder, what the heck you're doing here. You couldn't even bring yourself to answer that question earlier in this thread, which I interpret as a silent omission that I'm 100 percent correct.

Edited, Mar 29th 2016 9:58am by Thayos
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#269 Mar 29 2016 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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I don't struggle to identify anything and it's highly ironic I get accused of that despite the fact I have every pony and bird (aside seph due to RNG) which means I probably understand it better than you do, considering I do all of this game's content. Even when I say exactly how things are it boils down to: "You're a hardcore raider, you don't understand the game at all."


Are you referring to anyone in specific with that quote? Because I certainly never said that, nor have I seen anyone here say that.



Like what others are doing, it's clearly being insisted that I don't understand anything because I do raids in an MMORPG.

Quote:
And I stand by my actual statement that you're out of touch with the bulk of this game's playerbase. In fact, the entire first part of your rebuttal quote above kind of proves my point. You're such a hardcore player that you've already blown through EVERYTHING. Of course you have!


It's not hardcore to kill this rotation of ex primals in 5-10 minutes. If by "being out of touch with the playerbase" you mean by not being terrible (just being honest) I agree, I am out of touch, because if the typical player can't kill the easy ex primals...I don't know what to say lol. You can kill no less than 20 ravanas in an hour if your group is anywhere near good, ESPECIALLY at the current point in the game's gear progression (that even the most casual player has because you know, its been about 6 weeks of uncapped eso and midas.)

So i know you didn't mean anything by it, but my point was, the fact I actually farm the "midcore content" kind of proves I know exactly how the playerbase is because it's not like I only do things with just my FC.

Quote:

Pretty much everything you say here is from the viewpoint of this bored/dissatisfied hardcore player who has just run out of things to do. Which is why I always wonder, and still wonder, what the heck you're doing here. You couldn't even bring yourself to answer that question earlier in this thread, which I interpret as a silent omission that I'm 100 percent correct.


Because I answered it no less than 5 times now, but it gets brushed off because "I'm a hardcore player."

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#270 Mar 29 2016 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because I answered it no less than 5 times now, but it gets brushed off because "I'm a hardcore player."


Being a hardcore player isn't a bad thing. You just need to accept that you view the game from a completely different perspective than most people who play it.

For example, you talk about beating 20 Ravanas in an hour like it's no big deal -- and for you, it probably isn't. Meanwhile, I think only one person in my new casual/midcore content static has beaten Ravana once, and a couple people haven't even beaten Sephirot NM.

And it has nothing to do with these folks being bad players; they're just busy adults, and this game makes learning these fights difficult unless you have more consistent time to spend in the game. These folks are far more representative of the game's average player than you are.

Again, nothing wrong with being hardcore. My inner gamer actually envies/respects you quite a bit. If I had a more open schedule, I'd love to be part of a dedicated hardcore static and be on the leading edge of these fights. But your experience with the game is not normal... and that's what you need to come to grips with. SE keeps on letting you down, but it's because they didn't design the bulk of this game to make people like you happy.

Edited, Mar 29th 2016 9:44pm by Thayos
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#271 Mar 29 2016 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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It's funny you accuse people of discrediting you when ...the very first thing you do is accuse someone of only looking at the game in one way. You do realize "End-Game" is usually the largest portion of an MMORPG..right? Or else there's a lack of content if when you hit level cap....you have nothing to do or no reason to actually be level capped.

Frankly, I hate the whole "end-game" moniker because these games are often deliberately designed to not end, or at the very least, string us along.

However, my insinuation of perspective is that you, as many others, only looked to RDM melee as a binary possibility. "Is it good in this endgame activity I want to do? No? Forget it." I can at least respect people willing to admit they couldn't figure out how to make something work, but are still receptive to the idea. It's a different story when they're adamantly against it because they don't see the point and/or can't figure it out. That's a frequent theme from the bad apples of endgame. "Why do you need raid quality gear when you don't raid?" Hint #1: It gives people something to do.

Universally, one of the big MMO hurdles we have going on is the whole, "The game begins at end-game!" schtick. This often translates to people wanting to get through the leveling process as quickly as possible and frequently at the expense of any kind of story the world can present. This falls in line a bit with me wanting the "role-playing" aspect of characterization to mean more beyond the trinity, but the solution is more complex than simply just slowing down the rate at which people level. Still, there are other consequences to it like low/mid-level crafting being useless and further so if quest rewards gear people up.

On the other hand, and this is something I've said time and again around here, is that it's okay for content to have a lifespan. When someone is "done" with an area or event, it shouldn't be some development priority to try and drag them back. This is also where stuff like mandatory level capping hurts because if the issue is someone of appropriate level can't get something done, and it requires a number of other appropriately leveled players, you begin multiplying the number of people needed (who may not actually NEED said content they're done with) which just makes things worse as the content ages. Instead, said person could feasibly find a kindly overleveled player to take them through it, often with less hassle. Us XI vets likely saw that in practice via CoP missions before and after the cap removals even though the last set of missions weren't "handed out" in the uncapped environment prior to 99.

I reference ego a lot when talking down the typical MMO endgame, but that's because the usual resistance to change boils down to, "I don't like that!" from those who might be okay with the status quo. Everyone has their own tastes, that's understandable, but it doesn't inherently mean said tastes are superior and I'm highly cognizant of the fact I meet said vitriol with my own. I'd much rather a world where people can find what they like, do what they like, and not be ostracized and shamed for it presuming it isn't a malicious activity (but even that has a place in story building!). Maybe one day that'll mean you don't pick a class at character creation, but instead learn spells and abilities as you explore, fight, and refine them. So, even if two people idealize themselves as some great axe wielding warrior, they'd still be different in their strengths, weaknesses, and relationships with their peers or lack thereof. And maybe it's little mysteries like that that could make MMOs seem special again instead of knowing that max ilvl PLD over there is the exact same as the one just down the path, and because of that, we must make such and such encounter a statistical dance because choices are scary.
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#272 Mar 30 2016 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not hardcore to kill this rotation of ex primals in 5-10 minutes. If by "being out of touch with the playerbase" you mean by not being terrible (just being honest) I agree, I am out of touch, because if the typical player can't kill the easy ex primals...I don't know what to say lol. You can kill no less than 20 ravanas in an hour if your group is anywhere near good, ESPECIALLY at the current point in the game's gear progression (that even the most casual player has because you know, its been about 6 weeks of uncapped eso and midas.)


If you think 20 Ravanas in an hour is anything at all remotely resembling the typical experience of most of the playerbase, then yeah, you are very out of touch with it.
#273 Mar 31 2016 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Again, nothing wrong with being hardcore. My inner gamer actually envies/respects you quite a bit. If I had a more open schedule, I'd love to be part of a dedicated hardcore static and be on the leading edge of these fights. But your experience with the game is not normal... and that's what you need to come to grips with. SE keeps on letting you down, but it's because they didn't design the bulk of this game to make people like you happy.

Edited, Mar 29th 2016 9:44pm by Thayos


Thing is, they're actually upsetting a lot of people and their reports showed it. Trust me, 300k+ people lost between 3.0 and 3.1 delay is significant amount of money lost, no company, especially in SE's situation, wants to lose money, which is why they're struggling with "resources" in order to give us proper content. It just seems like people are "happy with everything" on more populated servers, but that's why I've said, outside of those the actual state of the game is very apparent. If people didn't flood to certain servers you'd see just how deserted the game actually is once people are done with daily/weekly lockout content. For someone joining fresh, they'll have plenty of old content to do to keep them busy but that doesn't necessarily mean the game is in a good content standpoint because "current" content is what suffers most, so if the people they want to make happy the most aren't concurrent players and strictly people who MAY join down the line (yoshi's actual words too) that can only go so far.

Do you honestly believe if 4.0 is a repeat of 2.0 like 3.x is that people will remain happy? If so, you technically can't argue against when I stated that there's people who care more for glamour than gameplay, because I'm pretty sure any other MMO would have long been sold off or transitioned into F2P to cut losses. TERA repeated it's slow update cycle and look what happened to it while it was P2P.

Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
It's not hardcore to kill this rotation of ex primals in 5-10 minutes. If by "being out of touch with the playerbase" you mean by not being terrible (just being honest) I agree, I am out of touch, because if the typical player can't kill the easy ex primals...I don't know what to say lol. You can kill no less than 20 ravanas in an hour if your group is anywhere near good, ESPECIALLY at the current point in the game's gear progression (that even the most casual player has because you know, its been about 6 weeks of uncapped eso and midas.)


If you think 20 Ravanas in an hour is anything at all remotely resembling the typical experience of most of the playerbase, then yeah, you are very out of touch with it.


"It's not hardcore" is the point. I didn't say it was typical, especially if you remember how I've said very clearly that people still wipe to Ravana Ex despite the fact he spends most of his time in battle charging up attacks and very little in the way of actual mechanics, extremely easy to manage mechanics at that. Comparing it to Sephirot Ex where there's actual mechanics going off almost all the time..yeah I know it's not typical, but Ravana is outdated content now, it's not bad to expect people to be able to blow through this fight by now, especially since Ilvl alone already boosts you through it. I mean, you have people who can wipe the floor with Titan HM and Ex..and realize how old that content is as well. Even Thordan Ex is nothing and that was barely a patch ago.

Seriha wrote:
However, my insinuation of perspective is that you, as many others, only looked to RDM melee as a binary possibility. "Is it good in this endgame activity I want to do? No? Forget it." I can at least respect people willing to admit they couldn't figure out how to make something work, but are still receptive to the idea. It's a different story when they're adamantly against it because they don't see the point and/or can't figure it out. That's a frequent theme from the bad apples of endgame. "Why do you need raid quality gear when you don't raid?" Hint #1: It gives people something to do.


Yeah people looked at it mostly like that because RDMs simply didn't have the skill (mechanically) to actually be useful on certain endgame encounters melee wise. Comparing a RDM and BLU swordplay, BLU is far more suited (obviously) for melee and RDM is far more suited for the casting it brings. So it's hard to throw them into content and let them melee when they technically can't even do it efficiently.

As for gear, there's merit to that though. You don't need the high end gear unless you're planning on wiping the floor with old content, because no content outside of say Savage Alexander and Sephirot Ex requires any of the ilvl220 -230+ pieces. If you do it "to have something to do", that's further proof they need to fix this game's content pool, because gear tredmills tend to keep people content for so long. Most people who don't touch harder content get Lore gear because we've been programmed to get our weekly tomes as part of the update cycle.

If they did something similar to what XI does and is doing with the new battle system in early April where they have one set of content they constantly shift around the monster and rewards, then you'd always have something to look forward to upon updates because they "refresh" a set of content to remain relevant in the most obvious way possible...rather than dumping a 1.3% mount drop into it to try to revitalize it.

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#274 Mar 31 2016 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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#275 Mar 31 2016 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't say anything if I thought people genuinely wanted difficult content, but I honestly don't think that's the case. I feel like people want to cruise through content suitable for a group of completely random people to clear(read: easy) and they want to collect gear they don't really need for who knows what. I would just point out that this type of reward system only encourages the sloppy play which makes difficult content tedious and annoying in the first place. The sad part is that most of the current content should already be easy enough for pick-ups to clear.

Just so we're clear, there is a stark difference between people who want to clear content and people who actually put forth effort to make it all come together. Devoting time to finding groups and/or statics is a part of the process that 'weeds out' players who aren't capable of fulfilling their duties in a raid. We're quickly moving away from achievements and accomplishments in MMOs meaning something or just being another rest area on the road trip to oblivion.
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#276 Mar 31 2016 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
What people want is content that groups of friends or FC mates can work through together without strict scheduling and participation requirements. That means content where progression is possible without having eight and EXACTLY eight people -- it means if you have a FC of 13 people, we want content that accommodates groups of 13 (or even 11) people in addition to larger FCs of 26 or 32 people. If Bob's wife falls down the stairs and has to go to the hospital, then we want content that doesn't come grinding to a halt. Or for smaller FCs with players who aren't obsessive about their play schedules, we want content that they can jump into once/week and actually have a fun, progress-oriented experience that doesn't involve rapidly dying again and again.

Yes, this means we don't want content that's as "difficult" as savage-level raids. We'd prefer fights that are engaging rather than massive insta-kill jump rope sessions that require very little skill but a lot of memorization. We want endgame content more like FFXI had to offer, where hardcore and casual players -- or adults with rigid schedules and adults with not much on their plates -- could have fun and progress toward goals at their own pace and without anyone being excluded.

It's an extremely simple concept.




Edited, Mar 31st 2016 3:42pm by Thayos

Edited, Mar 31st 2016 4:31pm by Thayos
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