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#277 Mar 31 2016 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
and they want to collect gear they don't really need for who knows what.

I know what, and so do all the rest of us filthy casuals who are apparently ruining your fun.

Collecting better gear is fun, even if you don't need it. I don't need that really powerful gear in a single player game either, but I want it because it's there and it's cool and it makes me feel powerful.


Thayos wrote:
What people want is content that groups of friends or FC mates can work through together without strict scheduling and participation requirements. That means content where progression is possible without having eight and EXACTLY eight people

Pretty much this. I'd be more likely to participate in higher end content if it didn't require such strict attendance. Where you don't screw everyone else over if you miss a night, and you're not screwed if 7 or 9 people show up. Making the inevitable FFXI comparison, you generally weren't canceling a limbus run because one person didn't show. THAT'S what most of us want.
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#278 Mar 31 2016 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know what, and so do all the rest of us filthy casuals who are apparently ruining your fun.


Technically, you're not ruining Filthy's fun since he doesn't actually play the game.
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#279 Mar 31 2016 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
and they want to collect gear they don't really need for who knows what.

I know what, and so do all the rest of us filthy casuals who are apparently ruining your fun.

Collecting better gear is fun, even if you don't need it. I don't need that really powerful gear in a single player game either, but I want it because it's there and it's cool and it makes me feel powerful.


That's the problem - The people who want to collect the high end gear creates a type of content setup we get now. People can do what they want and it is fun to collect things, but you then want people telling SE to make things more accessible.

Accessibility is nice, but there is such a thing as TOO accessible because then when it comes to "difficult content" they have to jack it up to a stupid degree because of the format people begged for (story mode version that also drops usable gear.) It's more along the lines of: "you don't need to be powerful to step on a cockroach" because most content in this game are basically "Cockroaches" you don't need the top of the line gear for, they designed it in such a way you only need basic gear to get by. If you like collecting better gear..COOL! Ask SE to make harder content rather than easier content as an alternate means of getting good gear because all that does is make SE go from one extreme to the other. Which is why the Binding Coil/Ex primal cycle was perfect, they played well on each other. Now that people keep telling SE to make easier content and more accessible means of getting top gear, they threw everything out of whack.

And no, it's not "my world", all it takes is reading SE's reports because Yoshi never wants to admit the solid facts, which is why he was upset they released that info about XIV back in November.
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#280 Mar 31 2016 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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Aside from wanting more randomized content in MMOs, they can also learn from ARPGs in that they're usually made both for solo and multiplayer. The difference in the latter is that mobs typically wind up more difficult the more people you add into the game. Often it's just HP boosts reflective of having 2x possible DPS, but it can be more complex like making mobs hit harder (to justify someone to keep enemy focus and/or mitigate outgoing damage), increasing their possible move set, and so on. Very rarely is content actually kept exclusive even though the communities within these given games will express their own snobbery in peer expectation.

Of course, games like Diablo 3 have people complaining gear isn't rare enough because someone dares to "finish" a character within 70 hours instead of needing the next 3 years of their life playing 18 hours a day. And I truly wish I was kidding there.

In the end, there are right and wrong ways to get people to play together. Making one mode better than the other isn't one of them.
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#281 Mar 31 2016 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
In the end, there are right and wrong ways to get people to play together. Making one mode better than the other isn't one of them.


Which is why they need a progression, but Yoshi said they have no one to develop the content or enough resources to do it. It's like XI's setup, end-game was the "Final frontier" but you also had the "stepping stone" content like Dynamis and Limbus/Einherjar which too were end-game content, but it was basically what you did to get started. Later on there were content like Nyzul and Salvage and such.

In XIV it should be Midas (no loot, story mode) > Midas "Hard" (starter loot) > Midas "Extreme/Savage" which has the highest end gear but requires going through the hard mode to gear out before you move on. If this was a proper MMO, it would also have a "Free" mode or "Exploration Mode" which has it's own set of encounters and loot but also is uncapped in terms of difficulty, similar to PSO2/GW2.

However people in this community (the ones that "matter") seem to complain once something is out of their reach.
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#282 Mar 31 2016 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

In the end, there are right and wrong ways to get people to play together. Making one mode better than the other isn't one of them.


Actually it is, if the measurement by which you make it better is more fun.
#283 Mar 31 2016 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Seriha wrote:

In the end, there are right and wrong ways to get people to play together. Making one mode better than the other isn't one of them.


Actually it is, if the measurement by which you make it better is more fun.

Well, sure, if you wanna play semantics. :P

I'm looking at it more from the effort:reward angle. You need a new ring that gives +STR. Event A has one that gives +5. Event B has one that gives +7. People are naturally going to want the +7 for maximum effectiveness. Of course, if you absolutely loathe Event B, you're probably never going to see the +7. Differences like this will further snowball across all equipment slots, especially if it winds up that Event B is seen as where you go after doing Event A.

In the end, I'd rather both Events A and B give the +7 ring, even if it means it takes a smidge longer than Event B if doing A, if by upgrading that +5 to +6 then +7. Current MMO landscape, however, tends to frown upon that because those who might like Event B wind up fearing they'll lose people to play with because the bribe is no longer as strong. Attempting to look at it pragmatically, if we realize Event B is losing popularity because it lacks exclusivity, it introduces the possibility that people aren't finding it as fun as fans of B may hope. And if it turns out making Event B costs something like 5x more than making A, well, something is going terribly wrong in the design process. It's also pretty easy to sit smugly by and assert players don't know what they want, thus events like B should be given the priority, but that always seems like a pretty flimsy justification doubling as a backhanded insult to fans of A or other alternatives.

A grossly simplified way of looking at things would just be, "Do combat-related things, get combat-related rewards." Kill 1 mob for 100 EXP, or 4 mobs for 25 per, the end result is still the same. This also feeds into my desire for equipment never actually being dropped, but instead crafted. It means resource conversion exists, further meaning said resources acquire value relative to their methods of acquisition. Tackle the hard stuff, gear up more quickly. Take on more laid back tasks, you'll get there eventually. One way or another, someone will figure out that super rare material is worth exactly X amount of bear butts. Let the players figure that out, not the devs deciding super rare material should never be seen by someone who doesn't do B a lot.
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#284 Apr 01 2016 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
What you say above is exactly why I question the need for hardcore raiding. If the development team has limited resources, shouldn't they be trying to make content that most people can and/or will want to actually do?
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#285 Apr 01 2016 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Actually it is, if the measurement by which you make it better is more fun.
Whose idea of fun gets to be the measuring stick?
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#286 Apr 01 2016 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whose idea of fun gets to be the measuring stick?


This is the biggest problem with this entire discussion summed up nicely.

Some people enjoy hardcore raiding and want super difficult content they have to claw their way through.

Some people want super accessible content with great rewards they can do on their own time.

Some people want to collect outfits and mounts and pets and accumulate things that make their character look cool and unique.

Who's right? I think everyone is right. I think all sides have valid points and a theme park MMO like FFXIV is supposed to appeal to a broad base of people who all want something different out of it.

Having a hardcore endgame is good because it gives people something to attain. It gives them a goal they can work hard and accomplish.

Having a casual endgame is good because it gives people the ability to work at their own pace doing something that doesn't require a set schedule and half a dozen other people to accomplish.

Having fun stuff to do and collect fills the empty spaces between content drops nicely and a nice diversion between raids or between dungeons or between whatever it is you want to be doing.

Everyone is right.... right up until they start picking away at each other. Then everyone is wrong. Your particular vision of what this game, or any game, should be is fine... but it's not the only vision. What you want out of the game is not the same as what someone else wants out of it and they aren't wrong for wanting it.

You can appeal to all the majorities you want despite how inherently flawed that argument is. You're all wrong when you say that someone else wanting something they find fun is bad. Hardcore raiders give casual players something to aspire to. I know that sounds cheesy but it's true. Casual players pay the game's bills and sometimes they become raiders themselves allowing turnover in hardcore groups to not be fatal. Both groups are important and both groups are integral to a successful game.

Edited, Apr 1st 2016 2:51pm by Callinon
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#287 Apr 01 2016 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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coming out of lurk mode for a second.

I definitely would like to see some new types of content, more in line with the different battle systems that XI would introduce every major patch. Part of what stupefied me when i began exploring non-XI mmos back in the day was how most of the content was all the same type of content. Basically, dungeons and raids. We never called them raids in XI, we called them dynamis, salvage, etc, because each of those events is its own, mostly fresh type of content. Each type of content was almost like a new game within the game, and this imo really helped the longevity of XI.

Now I surely understand why SE obviously has their update pipeline configured the way they do; its less time consuming to simply make 2 new dungeons using the same, standard dungeon format than it is to, say, implement a ffxiv version of Skirmish or something. small team, etc etc. Its also more of a risk. What if no one likes the new fresh content? (hi diadem. you were a conceptual step in the right direction, but mostly you just proved my point that the dev team doesnt have the resources to deviate meaningfully from their established update cycle. but we already knew that.)

All of that stuff aside, my main observation, as someone who plays on and off, is that for me, this game is fun as hell in small doses, and quickly becomes tedious and repetitive if i try to get hardcore with it in terms of playtime. It can easily trick me into feeling really really invested in my character, until all of a sudden I don't want to log in, because i know i'll just be doing the same **** i did yesterday and it makes my brain feel crazy. That combined with the weekly lockouts actually gives me mild anxiety, because i feel like i have to do the repetitive things before the week is up, and its easier (and healthier) to just not log in at that point.
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#288 Apr 01 2016 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
What you say above is exactly why I question the need for hardcore raiding. If the development team has limited resources, shouldn't they be trying to make content that most people can and/or will want to actually do?


Or on the flipside:

Waste the resources on content no one asked for (especially not a huge amount of people) or on content long dead (since creating even mounts/minions take resources that are being shoved into old content.) Lords of Verminion was literally DoA, it didn't even get an initial surge even on popular servers.

"Hardcore raids" at least is part of the natural progression or there's literally no reason to award high end gear in this game.
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#289 Apr 01 2016 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
We never called them raids in XI, we called them dynamis, salvage, etc, because each of those events is its own, mostly fresh type of content. Each type of content was almost like a new game within the game, and this imo really helped the longevity of XI.

That's mostly because in FFXI we followed the japanese names (DD, renki, genkai, meripo, etc.) While it's true that all the events were somewhat different, in any other game we still would have collectively called them raids (and dungeons as we know them today didn't exist.)

I do agree about them all being different. It was really nice to have a lot of different events that all gave somewhat equivalent gear. The issue here though is that that only worked because XI's gear progression was almost entirely horizontal and gear was incredibly situational. There are a reason to do limbus and dynamis and sky, etc, because most of the gear was useful at the same time. In XI we all walked around wearing five pairs of pants. In XIV you never need more than one at a time (maybe two if you PvP.)

In XIV if you had five different events that all rewarded equivalent gear then people would just gravitate to whatever is most efficient and the others would be mostly ignored. And if one event had better gear than the others then everyone would just do that one and ignore the rest.
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#290 Apr 01 2016 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Your points stand, for sure. Although I think the correlation between horizontal progression and more variety in content is a false one. Clearly this game won't ever go horizontal, but that doesn't mean they couldn't theoretically design new and different types of battle content that simply drop mounts or other glamour items instead of progression gear. People would do the content. Its still an issue of not enough manpower though.



Edited, Apr 1st 2016 8:14pm by Llester
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#291 Apr 01 2016 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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I think I'd just like to apply the thread title as a serious question toward the forum's stability. Probably spent the better part of 8 hours checking off and on earlier today getting error screened just trying to check on the thread.

Anyway, the question of what should people do if equivalent gear is more readily available is also why I'd tried to stress world building and playing roles beyond the trinity construct. I don't expect everyone to be a good writer, thus being able to convey themselves in that way. However, if there are steps to prove yourself a good blacksmith, then your gameplay should obviously take you through those over time and not simply through exclusively filling little bars and running dailies. In practice, that evokes less worry about perfect balance, but instead attempts to capture what people might find cool (or fun). And even if the world does slowly fill up with high-level blacksmiths, they should be able to further distinguish themselves based on the challenges the world presents. If the housing system is good, one could be a master at creating furnishings and farming equipment. Another could be really good at creating gear that destroys magically oriented enemies like elementals. If the concern is that high level areas lack a specific enemy type, thus justification for a specific specialization, this is where you start introducing some variation like different enemies at day and night, seasons, FATE-like encounters, targeted instancing, and slightly more complex eco-systems. Odds are, the aforementioned Elemental Slayer would be good at farming them for components, which the farmer might need to make/repair specific tools. Of course, the farmer fuels the cook who gives the food the Slayer uses to make their hunting even more productive. It's a concept that shouldn't be alien to us, but it's really hard to NOT look at raiding in various MMOs and see that ceilings economies because things not-top-tier become undesired. Current raiding culture effectively creates "dead on arrival" content in its own way. Heck, who recalls Crystal Tower being dubbed useless here because Coil had been out already with better gear? We could argue SE got the launch order wrong, sure, but it's still tiering.

Yeah, I expect content to occasionally bomb. That's an inevitability of experimenting. Maybe we shouldn't be looking for pet mini-games here since Pokemon has been doing that for decades and to greater success as a standalone title/series. Just as I'd expect LoL to better handle direct PvP than XIV. Right now, it seems like the basics of simply being in a world have been lost, or maybe they'd never been found to begin with. And if MMOing truly is little more than in a state of "Do as I say, or else!" then it most definitely is in a bad place.
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#292 Apr 01 2016 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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I like where you're coming from, and I'm sure you know this isn't the type of mmo that will experiment too much with new content ( tbh i'm still a little floored that diadem even became a thing. quite a bit less floored after actually experiencing it,but point remains)

I think part of the issue for me, with the modern mmo model, is how game-ified it is. Everywhere you look you are reminded that you are playing a game, with strict rules, which of course completely stomps on and obliterates immersion for many people. Its a shame that EQNext was deemed 'not fun' (still wondering what the specifics of that are...would love to sit in on the post mortem) by its devs, since i had high hopes that it would go a long way towards bridging the gap between the old sandbox style virtual world and the themepark candy sparkle trophy achievement grind we have now.

I feel like I've been saying this stuff in one form or another for a few years now, and I'm certainly not the only one; there are probably games that are tackling these issues, and i just haven't found them. They may just not be MMORPGs. No Man's Sky, for instance, seems like it will scratch the virtual world itch. Shroud of the Avatar also sounds promising.

Its just really hard for me to break away from the FF aesthetic, so I just try to enjoy XI and XIV for what they are for now.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2016 12:11am by Llester
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#293 Apr 01 2016 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
That's the problem - The people who want to collect the high end gear creates a type of content setup we get now. People can do what they want and it is fun to collect things, but you then want people telling SE to make things more accessible.


They don't seem to grasp the concept that player power is directly tied to gear. It's all fine and dandy when the loot pinata is raining on you, but if you're someone who wants a challenge then you're boned. Developers tune content to gear level and assume a threshold for 'player skill'. There's really no other way to handle it unless they make drastic changes to the foundation of the game and we all know that's not happening.

What ends up happening is players start voicing that they want a challenge, but they're not at all ready for it. They've been spoon-fed amazing gear for very little effort and there isn't a way to transition between faceroll and hardmode.

lolgaxe wrote:
Whose idea of fun gets to be the measuring stick?

Ding ding ding.

The definitions vary widely depending on who you ask. Some prefer loot pinata, some prefer a brutal grind with horrid drop rates and, well... others prefer their porridge warm.

The only reason my stance on the matter resides where it does is that to me, committing more time and effort to defeating difficult content is baked into the definition of endgame. It seems harmless to give away gear for no effort but the moment you take a kid away from the tit... Smiley: cry


As for the horizontal vs vertical debate, horizontal leaves more wiggle room for alternate types of content because the power level remains constant. New gear allowed you to be more effective in certain areas or aspects of your job in horizontal games, but it's accompanied by gobs of health, mitigation, healing and damage in vertical style games.
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#294 Apr 02 2016 at 4:20 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, that's why Diadem (Easy and Normal) were failures. The concept itself was a failure due to the game they designed it on. If it was designed in XI you can guarantee the content would have had a Delve/Vaguary/Skirmish like setup to it, something that simply promotes one content branching out.

People say they want alternate paths and varied content but then shun Horizontal progression. Whether or not someone likes "hardcore raiding" has to realize, there's no "hardcore" in this game, anyone who knows anything about hardcore raiding in MMORPGs would laugh at the notion of XIV ARR/HW having "hardcore" anything.

What are you raiding hardcore for? 2 more weapon damage and 5 more basic stats? lol. People who push through Savage to get world first does it for bragging rights, not the gear because gear in this game is worthless. SE even ruined the ONE chance they had to make gear last by forbidding "advanced melds"...why the arbitrary restriction? No other MMO with a socket system forbids you from going wild, the most they do is forbid you from using certain grades or types in certain slots.

I don't know what version of WoW yoshi had the crew play for a year ARR but it certainly couldn't have been anything post WoTLK.

As said, some people simply don't realize, or they do realize and hate to admit than once you spoon feed your players and condition them to get what you want then suddenly change that up..well that's when the crying starts or well, people say you shouldn't even bother working on x content especially when they themselves don't utilize that content. I mean, look at how fast Diadem Normal died when they scaled back the loot pinata of it.

"Why waste resources on content few people can even access?"

A question like that is kind of loaded because...every MMO to this day had and has no problem creating content a small % of players will access because it lets them retain a certain game design without having to basically maim it in order to make it accessible.

Alliance content in XIV is the perfect example. It is BACKWARDS AS ALL HELL to scale DOWN difficulty with MORE PEOPLE..rather than scale it upwards. Why should content that take 24 people be EASIER than content that takes 8? or 4? In FFXI it's fine because you can do a plethora of setups and strategies, but in XIV everything is locked down tight. 24 people should have far more fights and mechanics DESIGNED for 24 people of x ilvl. For example the only reason for 3 parties in XIV's alliance content are 3 mechanics:

1. Panels
2. "Oh no x party is trapped!"
3. 3 Adds that can't be solo tanked or held together.

Take those out of the equation and all of XIV's alliance content can be done with a single party (it's been tested and proven.) So the more "Exclusive" content is, the more likely it is they'll make it challenging - they've admitted to not properly testing content so you can't even use the argument that "look at savage!!!!1" and the "low % of players who did x" is a moot point when people fail to admit this game simply just has a low player population (Protip: it's sure as hell not the 5 million players SE said even as recently in the developer diary videos.)

The solution to the problem is simple: Yoshi has to stop worrying about "oh but x players may not be able to do the content or access the xyz" when he touted his favorite MMO is DAoC. He's more worried about POTENTIAL players rather than CONCURRENT players, which is fine, but gated content is a thing for a reason. I mean, SE had no trouble creating sky and sea when 90% of NA players could barely attain Sky let alone Sea because they couldn't get through CoP missions and the main Zilart mission that held people back was the Archduke battle (it was actually fairly tough in 2003 and early 2004.)

I'm pretty sure XI wasn't a colossal failure.

"It's a different time now!"

The only difference is the amount of handouts developers started to do with their MMOs. If they reel that back a bit, they can create lasting content, but then you run the risk of upsetting people who's become conditioned to get rewards JUST through participation alone. I'm all for reward people for doing something, but the itemization and content structure of this game simply..is off. If they left gear that had meaning, everything would be dandy. You want a STR+80 wepon with the usual crit, det, parry or skill speed, go for it! Do your Midas Normal! You want that STR+110 weapon that enhances your abilities and even adds a new skill? Best get your *** into the Savage version or tackling Sephirot Reborn version of the fight. That way, there's actually a reason beyond bragging rights to do the high end content of this game, because as of now..people who want more content and more challenging content are STUCK with that type of content because people want more and more accessibility to content they had no time to do (still dubious about this) or had no skill to do it.

Since after all, the complaints are only here because people didn't have the skill to get through Binding Coil and demanded "story mode", so now that they have to design gear for a lower threshold, the actual "raid content" has to be jacked up to a stupid level for minimal rewards. Sure the gear is a nice headstart into the next raid cycle, but as proven, the reinclusion of crafted gear bypasses ANY benefit previous raid gear could have given you. (Most people this midas run progressed with overmeld ilvl220 crafted gear, not even the midas normal pieces or lore pieces were needed until the final 2 floors to make life easier.)

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#295 Apr 02 2016 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yep, that's why Diadem (Easy and Normal) were failures. The concept itself was a failure due to the game they designed it on.


Diadem failed only because of execution. The concept was solid, especially for a game like FFXIV. It's a type of content that could have easily been updated every so often to keep it relevant, and it could have contained challenges for both small groups and large alliances with no need for set numbers. That's exactly what this game needs.

Quote:
People say they want alternate paths and varied content but then shun Horizontal progression. Whether or not someone likes "hardcore raiding" has to realize, there's no "hardcore" in this game, anyone who knows anything about hardcore raiding in MMORPGs would laugh at the notion of XIV ARR/HW having "hardcore" anything.


Translation: This game isn't hardcore enough for you, Hio, which is what I've been telling you over and over. You'll never be happy with XIV.

Quote:
As said, some people simply don't realize, or they do realize and hate to admit than once you spoon feed your players and condition them to get what you want then suddenly change that up..well that's when the crying starts or well, people say you shouldn't even bother working on x content especially when they themselves don't utilize that content. I mean, look at how fast Diadem Normal died when they scaled back the loot pinata of it.


Most people didn't do Diadem even during its loot pinata stage. The only folks who hammered at it in my FC were the hardcore players, because -- as they said -- the gear rewards were too helpful for savage mode NOT to spam Diadem. But everyone else seemed to stay out of it. I don't know any non-hardcore players who either 1) spammed it or 2) missed it after it was nerfed.

Again, you're only really capable of seeing this from the vantage point of a hardcore player.

Quote:
"Why waste resources on content few people can even access?"

A question like that is kind of loaded because...every MMO to this day had and has no problem creating content a small % of players will access because it lets them retain a certain game design without having to basically maim it in order to make it accessible.


Really, the question is "why use too many resources on content that only a few people can even access?" And it's just as valid of a question as you asking why the development team spends resources on content that's so casual that people don't want to do it. I concur with both questions. Developing for either end of the spectrum is fine, but neither of those is what most people want.

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Alliance content in XIV is the perfect example. It is BACKWARDS AS ALL **** to scale DOWN difficulty with MORE PEOPLE..rather than scale it upwards. Why should content that take 24 people be EASIER than content that takes 8? or 4?


Because team jump ropes are not fun. Especially when it seems like every fight is a team jump rope after team jump rope. Fights can be designed to tone down the jump roping, and even to let players decide who will be handling certain mechanics -- this way, groups can let their more experienced players take on the most challenging roles, allowing newcomers to experience and learn fights without necessarily dooming runs to failure.

Quote:
The only difference is the amount of handouts developers started to do with their MMOs. If they reel that back a bit, they can create lasting content, but then you run the risk of upsetting people who's become conditioned to get rewards JUST through participation alone. I'm all for reward people for doing something, but the itemization and content structure of this game simply..is off. If they left gear that had meaning, everything would be dandy. You want a STR+80 wepon with the usual crit, det, parry or skill speed, go for it! Do your Midas Normal! You want that STR+110 weapon that enhances your abilities and even adds a new skill? Best get your *** into the Savage version or tackling Sephirot Reborn version of the fight.


Unfortunately, that view is simply unrealistic. There simply aren't enough players with the free time and scheduling flexibility to learn these savage-mode fights. Also, they're just not that fun. Extreme team jump roping is repetitive and highly dependent on memorization; it's not really all that mentally stimulating. If anything, the problem with XIV's raid design is that jump rope fights are inherently more fun when they're not so massively frustrating -- which means NM raids in small doses are going to bring more fun than Extreme-mode raids that you've got to beat your face against for three nights/week.

And there's no way around that. Why would busy people who already don't have the time WANT to use their free time being frustrated?

You've got try to think outside the hardcore box and see the game from an Everyman's perspective.

Quote:
That way, there's actually a reason beyond bragging rights to do the high end content of this game, because as of now..people who want more content and more challenging content are STUCK with that type of content because people want more and more accessibility to content they had no time to do (still dubious about this) or had no skill to do it.


In a perfect world, the development team would be building different types of content for casual/midcore and hardcore players, and people could simply do what tickled their fancies. And with the Diadem, SE was oh-so-close to doing this.

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Since after all, the complaints are only here because people didn't have the skill to get through Binding Coil and demanded "story mode",


And this kind of statement really discredits everything you're trying to say. You and I actually agree on the essence of this statement: The endgame raids in this game aren't honestly difficult. They don't really require skill. All they've ever required from anyone is a lag-free connection and enough repetition to build memorization and muscle memory -- and almost ANYONE can do that. If every player could be in the game with seven other people with identical schedules and no RL conflicts, the completion rate for endgame raids would be amazingly high, because the only real challenge is access.

Hardcore players tend to give themselves a little too much credit when they claim nobody does endgame because "they simply aren't skilled!"
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#296 Apr 02 2016 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Liester wrote:
I definitely would like to see some new types of content, more in line with the different battle systems that XI would introduce every major patch. Part of what stupefied me when i began exploring non-XI mmos back in the day was how most of the content was all the same type of content. Basically, dungeons and raids. We never called them raids in XI, we called them dynamis, salvage, etc, because each of those events is its own, mostly fresh type of content. Each type of content was almost like a new game within the game, and this imo really helped the longevity of XI.

All of that stuff aside, my main observation, as someone who plays on and off, is that for me, this game is fun as **** in small doses, and quickly becomes tedious and repetitive if i try to get hardcore with it in terms of playtime. It can easily trick me into feeling really really invested in my character, until all of a sudden I don't want to log in, because i know i'll just be doing the same **** i did yesterday and it makes my brain feel crazy. That combined with the weekly lockouts actually gives me mild anxiety, because i feel like i have to do the repetitive things before the week is up, and its easier (and healthier) to just not log in at that point.

They weren't completely unique regardless of what they called them. You still performed combat in roughly the same way, it just had three things different from XIV.
1.Different rule and party dynamics sets for different content.
2.Horizontal progression
3.Loose party participant rules made possible through mechanics in characters and zones

Liester wrote:
We never called them raids in XI, we called them dynamis, salvage, etc, because each of those events is its own, mostly fresh type of content. Each type of content was almost like a new game within the game, and this imo really helped the longevity of XI.

Karlina wrote:
That's mostly because in FFXI we followed the japanese names (DD, renki, genkai, meripo, etc.) While it's true that all the events were somewhat different, in any other game we still would have collectively called them raids (and dungeons as we know them today didn't exist.)

I do agree about them all being different. It was really nice to have a lot of different events that all gave somewhat equivalent gear. The issue here though is that that only worked because XI's gear progression was almost entirely horizontal and gear was incredibly situational. There are a reason to do limbus and dynamis and sky, etc, because most of the gear was useful at the same time. In XI we all walked around wearing five pairs of pants. In XIV you never need more than one at a time (maybe two if you PvP.)

In XIV if you had five different events that all rewarded equivalent gear then people would just gravitate to whatever is most efficient and the others would be mostly ignored. And if one event had better gear than the others then everyone would just do that one and ignore the rest.

In an mmorpg you either are progressing up or sideways at different rates.Horizontal progression has more longevity by nature because the only way you do not outpower content in a vertical game is zone or character level sync. People complain about long spawn HM and HNM but they along with other things like chocobo digging, day and night, weather, zone doors needing party members(the zone locks would have been fine if it wasn't job quest related being repeated) or seasonal differences made each zone or content a little different from the previous. Was I able to participate in every event I wanted when I wanted? No, but that is fine for me, at the least the option existed. I could enter and complete most objectives solo,duo,4 man,6 man, or in an alliance open world or instanced.

Liester wrote:
I think part of the issue for me, with the modern mmo model, is how game-ified it is. Everywhere you look you are reminded that you are playing a game, with strict rules, which of course completely stomps on and obliterates immersion for many people. Its a shame that EQNext was deemed 'not fun' (still wondering what the specifics of that are...would love to sit in on the post mortem) by its devs, since i had high hopes that it would go a long way towards bridging the gap between the old sandbox style virtual world and the themepark candy sparkle trophy achievement grind we have now.

I feel like I've been saying this stuff in one form or another for a few years now, and I'm certainly not the only one; there are probably games that are tackling these issues, and i just haven't found them. They may just not be MMORPGs. No Man's Sky, for instance, seems like it will scratch the virtual world itch. Shroud of the Avatar also sounds promising.

Its just really hard for me to break away from the FF aesthetic, so I just try to enjoy XI and XIV for what they are for now.

I enjoy FFXIV and FFXI for what they are now as well.

I put forward and idea on the official forums that adheres to the XIV mantra for some variety.
http://guildleveideas.webs.com/

One game that might be what you are looking for has peaked my interest. Don't know how huge or popular the game will be since it is being made in the vein of old school by an indie size team but I am hopeful.

https://pantheonmmo.com/



I will probably alternate between XIV, Black Desert(maybe) and Guild Wars 2 for my casual fix. And do FFXI and Pantheon for my open world hardcore fix.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2016 10:50am by sandpark
#297 Apr 02 2016 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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Yep, that's why Diadem (Easy and Normal) were failures. The concept itself was a failure due to the game they designed it on.


Diadem failed only because of execution


The concept of Diadem:
"Exploration"
"Fight monsters, get loot."
"Get spoils, turn spoils in for loot."

See, I said Diadem Easy and Normal, because Diadem Hard made far, far more sense in execution.

Quote:
Translation: This game isn't hardcore enough for you, Hio, which is what I've been telling you over and over. You'll never be happy with XIV.


I said exactly what I mean. Stop telling me what I want or think just because you disagree. Anyone who's hardcore raided in ANY MMORPG laugh whenever people read "Looking for hardcore linkshell/free company progression players!" because this game isn't hardcore. You're simply, as usual, just trying to tell someone to go away in defense of the game.

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Again, you're only really capable of seeing this from the vantage point of a hardcore player.


I said it before I'll say it as many times as it remains true. If you play this game and actually do this content, you get considered a "hardcore player" and thus your observations no longer matter. That's all that's being done here.

Quote:
Because team jump ropes are not fun


They aren't, which is why they should..you know..design their content better? Limbus with 18 people weren't team jump rope, neither was Proto/Arch-Omega/Ultima nor were Naakuals, Dynamis, Einherjar, ZNMs or Walk of Echoes. Sure if your tank and healers die you tend to go downhill fast, but you didn't continually "waste time" because your drg planted his feet and die to easy mechanics ala XIV.

Quote:
You've got try to think outside the hardcore box and see the game from an Everyman's perspective.


Translation: "You actually do all of this game's content so you actually experienced every side of the game..you have to stop that."

You really need to let go of the "hardcore" term. This game isn't a hardcore game. It is NOT HARD AT ALL to do this game's content and see exactly how it's all designed lol.

Quote:
And this kind of statement really discredits everything you're trying to say


Which is exactly why clear rates skyrocketed once they slapped in 20-30% echo and nerfed certain turns. I can promise you people "with responsibilities" that include family, children and multiple jobs didn't suddenly get less responsibility unless they lost their family and job. That's why I remain dubious about the "no time!" and lean more towards "didn't have the skill."

You simply take it as an insult, just look at the general playerbase who can BARELY get through easy content. Why is it so hard to believe people just couldn't do the content because of the lack of skill necessary to get through it? Binding Coil was unlike anything else the game offered at the time with the closet thing being Titan HM and Hydra lol. It has absolutely nothing to do with being "hardcore player", you either can or can't do the content and the main reason, as PARSING HAVE PROVEN, is skill. That's not an insult, it's the truth. If you say I have to "look outside of the box", you certainly are snug at scoffing off the other side of the equation.
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#298 Apr 02 2016 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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If you can't see why nerfs to encounters and buffs to players help alleviate time requirements...
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#299 Apr 02 2016 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
If you can't see why nerfs to encounters and buffs to players help alleviate time requirements...


They...don't. People always used the excuse: "I have no time to touch that content", so all of a sudden you have time to touch the content because you can blow through it? You do know most coils still have auto wipes if you mess up..yet that still didn't stop the skyrocketing clear rate once you no longer have to have the skill to do it. Especially the first Coil, it was already enough you just had people refusing to apply themselves. And yes if you parsed under a certain amount, that falls under skill.

Turn 7 for example, they changed the voice and shriek mechanics, something people simply couldn't for the life of them learn. (Triangle, face away out the arena, circle, LoS a Cyclops.) Yet that was the hardest thing in the world and what turned off most people. So it didn't alleviate the time requirements at all if you never touched it from the get go because unless you're getting carried, you STILL spent just as much time learning certain turns as you did prior to nerfs and echo. Look at people who still wipe to Turn 9 even unsync.

If the main excuse is "time" and not "skill" related...then no, it doesn't change anything.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2016 8:44am by Theonehio
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#300 Apr 02 2016 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
That game looks interesting.
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#301 Apr 02 2016 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes it does.Smiley: nod

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