1
Forum Settings
       
This thread is locked

What happened to these forums?Follow

#177 Mar 20 2016 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
Theonehio wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Even some of the best players in fighting games have their ego in check and often help if you have questions/run sets with them.

Edited, Mar 19th 2016 3:16pm by Montsegurnephcreep


Hm, no not really. Some of the best players in the current fighting circuit are, as you say:

Quote:
complete douche canoes


Fighting and MOBAs are far worse than MMOs ever will be, you just hardly see it because unlike MMOs, they actually have televised events and very few people want to look like a complete *** on sometimes international TV, especially over a video game. Should we also compare shooters which too have their particular reputation?

Quote:
The amount of yelling I've heard over voice chat over the most mundane things is incredible.


Let's put it this way: If you're still standing in AoEs at the level of play required for endgame, it's pretty obvious why "yelling" happens. If you've lost a clear because your DPS chose to ignore bombs (Midas 1 Savage for example), they will get yelled at. That happens in any game and sadly, I've seen far more yelling and "toxic" players doing DF normal on Aether than I have doing the actual savage content.



So in other words...it's bad. This is what we're saying. No amount of yelling should ever happen over a video game. I'm not even a bad player and have never personally received the brunt of someone calling me out. That being said, I've heard it happen one too many times and it accomplishes nothing. All it leads to is two people bickering back and forth on who should of done what.

Ya, I agree, other games are horrible and MMOs are on par with them. Sure, the fighting game community has some asshats (I never said ALL were nice, did I?) The majority though, are quite chill and easy going. Off the top of my head, I can only think of morons like LTG and FChamp who completely full of themselves and do nothing good for the community (I'm sure there's more). In the grand scheme of things, it's a very low %. Where as in MMOs, EVERY static has at least one who can't keep their ego in check or their mouth shut.

Overall, the entire mentality needs to change and that's on both ends. The casual crowd who wants to participate in this end game stuff but can't own up to their own mistakes and blame everyone else, are just as bad. Then the end game crowd, who makes it feel like a job application and are ready to rip into you for the most mundane things. If people want more endgame content, more varied endgame content (of the difficult kind), the community needs to be far more welcoming. Like I say, if someone is purposely ignoring ALL advice and not trying to improve, that's a whole other matter.

Quote:

Fighting games have their own competitive sphere, sure, but they're also not reliant on the trappings of MMO gear standards. Some even go out of their way to deliberately dumb down the experience like Smash and the whole, "Fox only, no items, Final Destination!" meme.


Ya, for the most part though, anyone in the "endgame competitive" scene ignores these kind of things. As for Smash, that game is its own thing hah.

Edited, Mar 20th 2016 9:25am by Montsegurnephcreep
____________________________

#178 Mar 20 2016 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
And what hardcore players who dismiss these environments don't realize is they're now the minority. This is why I've said repeatedly that developers really need to think about either parting ways with hardcore raiding or, at the very least, always have alternative paths of endgame that are far more dominant in the game's meta. Most people who play MMOs don't have the scheduling freedom to join statics and practice to memorize/clear these raids. Also, being mature adults, many of us simply don't want to deal with the kids who can make this stuff unbearable.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#179 Mar 20 2016 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,157 posts
Being the minority isn't just some new thing, Thay. They just happened to have seemed more prominent for so long because they're usually the ones posting in sites like this or elsewhere, too. This is ultimately why I tend to find census data fascinating if a company decides to share it about their particular game. How many people have completed a certain piece of content? How about specific achievements therein? What's the average gear level of people at cap? There's lots of behind the scenes details those happy and successful within their own little groups simply will not know about in their entirety.

So, when you see lines like, "Everyone has done X..." yet that data contradicts it, you get a real good idea of where the disconnect lies. For example, while this info is way out of date, I've mentioned before here in the past you had a lot of endgamers in Rift saying everyone had max planar attunement only for the lead dev to one day say on a live stream that the number of players who did were sub-1%. How may people played then? 50k? 100k? I don't know. The conversion is still an insidiously small number, and I've frankly seen similar behavior in XI during the VW era with people refusing to do runs if someone didn't have an RME.

I know WoW's LFR gets a lot of flak, but that's also a demonstration of Blizzard realizing they can't just keep shoveling out content only the minority gets to see. I understand why it might not be maximum difficulty, but at the same time, I disagree with setting a lower gear ceiling from it. Don't put the raid drops as in directly, fine, but someone should have the means to eventually get them there. Instead, it's just a whole lot of ,"Play our way or GTFO!" as facilitated by devs and enforced by the players. Anonymity is a hell of a drug that way.
____________________________
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
#180 Mar 21 2016 at 2:13 AM Rating: Excellent
****
4,175 posts
Seriha wrote:
I know WoW's LFR gets a lot of flak, but that's also a demonstration of Blizzard realizing they can't just keep shoveling out content only the minority gets to see.

The problem with LFR exposes a much larger reaching problem within the community itself...

Players want to press a button, endure a brief wait and then be whisked off to contentland. If they can't join a group for content with literally 0 commitment on their own part, said content is deemed 'inaccessible'.

Old school players of games leading up to and including WoW always talk about 'vanilla' like it was the golden age, but it kinda was. That was a time when we were adventurers. Players these days don't want a gigantic new world to explore, at least not unless it comes with a cozy RV to drive them around so they can dress up and take pictures.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#181 Mar 21 2016 at 3:46 AM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,157 posts
Well, I'm sure us XI vets had our share of parties where maybe you waited 30+ minutes or so to get it together, spending 10-15m to get to camp, fight a mob or two, only for someone to have to go for whatever reason. From the logistics perspective, I get why such instancing/matchmaking systems are generous about getting people together as quickly as possible while minimizing the politics of group formation. It's what happens after that can definitely be the mixed bag.

Overall, I'd give XIV negative marks here on their server structure being so constricted. Other games let you hop to and communicate with other servers at will, or perhaps they're doing a smaller number of servers, but instead with channels to help distribute populations and avoid overcrowding. The concept of paying for world transfers is something that needs to die since it's part of what complicates someone finding their potential in-game "home" since they're no guarantee that next server would be the one. Some folks may have the tolerance for once or twice, but others just don't want to drop the bones on a gamble.

Nonetheless, one could argue that the whole concept of instancing came about as a direct result of congestion or even griefing. Unless it's a temp-RNG-spawned area, I don't think instancing combat-related locations people can't get to without an invite has done the genre the good it should've. Congestion tends to come about as a direct result of rarity, which powered the drama of XI's HNM scene. Loot got fought over. Mobs got stolen. People got MPKed. All because "power" was being arbitrarily balanced through rarity, both in respawns and drop percentages, instead of solely through effort. Respawn rates are pretty much interchangeable with lockout timers in the case of XIV.

But people sitting around in towns waiting for their queue to pop is also a symptom of other issues: the worlds themselves tend to be pointless. Why craft when dropped/token goods are better? Why care about lore when you're a glorified errand boy and the world changes not one iota relative to your efforts and those of others? Straight up PvP isn't my cup of tea, but I'd be more receptive to the possibility of raising NPC armies I could use to capture and hold lands, possibly allied with other players or even as enemies PC and NPC alike. The whole "You're the hero!" trope of most MMOs is holding back innovation in its own way. We need the shades of grey. We need to be the storytellers. No one server of the same game should be alike.

In our own ways, we like the power we find in these games. The first to not trivialize one for the sake of another just might be onto something big. Be the first to slay a dragon? Okay. How about the first blacksmith to create a one-of-a-kind legendary sword that players who come after would fight to get their hands on indefinitely? Neither effort is intrinsically a solo-only affair, but one should still be able to strive for either goal without all the internet toughguy ********* With some real freedom, I think we'd find who's more keen on helping, hindering, or just plain bootlicking.

I can't deny I may be more ambitious than current tech/knowledge would allow, though.
____________________________
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
#182 Mar 21 2016 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
I couldn't even find people to do the Anti Tower and Lost City of Ampador (Hard) this weekend. I did the 4 day welcome back thing, queued up the Duty Finder, waited 30 mins and said forget it. It's what, a month old content and people are already not bothering with it unless it's through roulette. So I was already back where I was in November, kind of sitting around waiting for things to happen. PF had nothing of interest (that's Balmung for ya), short of a couple Sephirot farm parties, which I'm sure would go swimmingly.

____________________________

#183 Mar 21 2016 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Players want to press a button, endure a brief wait and then be whisked off to contentland. If they can't join a group for content with literally 0 commitment on their own part, said content is deemed 'inaccessible'.


There is a huge area between "zero commitment" and treating something like a part-time job. Most of us are in that area. MMOs, xiv included, don't cater well lately to that large group at endgame. To its credit, catering to this group is something FFXI did extremely well.

Quote:
I couldn't even find people to do the Anti Tower and Lost City of Ampador (Hard) this weekend. I did the 4 day welcome back thing, queued up the Duty Finder, waited 30 mins and said forget it. It's what, a month old content and people are already not bothering with it unless it's through roulette. So I was already back where I was in November, kind of sitting around waiting for things to happen. PF had nothing of interest (that's Balmung for ya), short of a couple Sephirot farm parties, which I'm sure would go swimmingly.


I kind of had a similar experience Saturday.

I still haven't beaten Ravana Ex. When Rav Ex and Biz Ex came out, I really made an effort to beat both of them right away, while learning parties were still common in the PF. I beat Biz Ex, but only because after multiple PF failures (always one or two people who don't prepare) I finally was able to run it with my FC for the win. However, then I got slammed with lots of extra work over the next week, and by the time I was free to play again it was much too difficult to find PF groups -- and also, my FC had moved beyond it. In this game, if you don't catch the initial wave of learning parties, then it really gets much harder to clear anything without some kind of static.

Anyway, Saturday I set the goal of beating Ravana Ex. I logged in, got my dailies, roulettes out of the way, and then started watching videos on YouTube. I got to that point when I'd absorbed about all I would from watching vids and needed to actually get in the fight and see things for myself -- but I chickened out. I already knew what would happen if seven other people popped into their daily trial roulettes, landed in Ravana Ex and saw that "somebody hasn't beaten this yet!" message.

Fortunately, I have my weekly content static now, so hopefully soon we'll focus on Biz Ex and Rav Ex (a couple of us never beat Biz Ex, either).

NOTE: I still had a productive weekend, leveling ninja to 50 and ranking up my Vath reputation. I love the primary job and bst quests. And a friend of mine just started playing, so I'll be experiencing a lot of the lowbie dungeons with him soon.

Edited, Mar 21st 2016 8:28am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#184 Mar 21 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,820 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Players want to press a button, endure a brief wait and then be whisked off to contentland. If they can't join a group for content with literally 0 commitment on their own part, said content is deemed 'inaccessible'.


There is a huge area between "zero commitment" and treating something like a part-time job. Most of us are in that area. MMOs, xiv included, don't cater well lately to that large group at endgame. To its credit, catering to this group is something FFXI did extremely well.


Indeed there is a huge difference, however, people seem to feel "zero commitment" is the way you should treat and design MMOs these days. The genre would have phased to nothingness if that were true back when MMOs weren't mainstream. However now that everything mainstream has to essentially "give you whatever you want for as little work as possible" you can kind of see why it doesn't matter if there's a large gap, it's either/or with gamers these days. "Part time job" is stretching it, but it's to be expected.

I mean, look at how any argument boils down to "Oh, but people like you are just in the minority! You don't matter to this game! Developers need to stop designing content that few people will see even though it was never a problem before because if I can't do that content, **** it I have tons of other content I can do!" So instead of telling devs to ignore their players, it's better for them to go back to a content formula that works. Unlike Horizontal progression, vertical is heavily double edged. You never dwell on a set of content too long, but your game also runs dry fairly quickly. "But XIV is successful so it clearly works and nothing needs to change", yet to this day you have people still say XI was never popular nor successful, despite being one of the single products that made that SE earned the most money of their entire run as a company.


Quote:
In this game, if you don't catch the initial wave of learning parties, then it really gets much harder to clear anything without some kind of static.


First point: You don't need a static ever, that's been proven by the Japanese player base time and time again and they're playing the exact same game as the rest of the world, despite being called out for generalization..let's be real about this: It's no secret if you've played online games for any stretch of time how particular player bases tend to be. The only reason on NA/EU datacenters you "need" a static, is because the overall playerbase is...bad honestly. More people = far more likely to run into bad players and largely, it seems to be more of a cultural difference when it comes to playing with people online.

Second Point: that's the problem with this game's content structure and should tell you off the bat: The people capable of clearing content will get content cleared quickly and thus are only left with content that, if poorly designed (Alexander Gordias Savage) will be the only thing left to do. If properly designed (Binding Coil, 1.0-2.3 Extreme Primals) there's a proper content rotation and even when people "blow through the initial wave", you're still going to have people getting into said rotation without issue and not have to worry about "Oh no new player bonus a week after? Pft what the hell is this?" compared to people that worked up towards the actual 2.x content so you had far more people always reaching that point compared to people who CHOOSE not to progress then decide to load up duty finder and well..constantly wipe everyone because of the OTHER reason of; "I play my way, I don't have to research a fight. Don't use Duty Finder if you don't like it."

However and despite how much venom was tossed at me for saying this: The 3.0 > 3,1 five month gap did absolutely NOTHING beneficial to this game, only for them to toss out the same exact formula for 3.1 then 3.2 and even wasted development resources on content no one asked for (Lords of Verminion.) Like I also said, LoV would have been fine, but for a good chunk of players (including the 300k they lost by november) people were starved for content and suffice to say, it has nothing to do with being hardcore or not. This game isn't a hardcore game, meaning anyone who chooses to progress, can and will quickly, with very little time and effort outside of Savage content, which Yoshi later admitted wasn't properly tested. If you're purposefully not trying to progress or you have no time or drive to, that will skew your perception of how the game actually is. You don't have to be hardcore to progress in a game that holds your hand through content and continually nerfed in order to catch people up quickly. for example Ravana Ex is the easiest primal to ever come out. Sephirot and Thordan tie for 2nd place simply because the latter are mechanic driven more than DPS race (you still can't slack), but the sad fact is, a lot of people simply don't know how to play and will almost always blame lag or "my computer locked up" (I've yet to see a PS3 player complain about these fights ironically) whenever they keep messing up easy mechanics or refuse to not tunnel-vision.

____________________________

#185 Mar 21 2016 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Indeed there is a huge difference, however, people seem to feel "zero commitment" is the way you should treat and design MMOs these days.


I guess this depends on what you mean by "commitment." Perhaps that's the hangup.

I considered FFXI content such as sky/dynamis to require commitment from participants. However, contributing in sky/dynamis/limbus/etc. didn't require several weeks of repetitive practicing and flawless execution by everyone involved. THAT is the kind of content this game needs, and that's the kind of content that masses of players like myself want. To characterize that as "zero commitment" seems awfully deceitful, although you may not have had that in mind when you wrote your reply.

Quote:
First point: You don't need a static ever, that's been proven by the Japanese player base time and time again and they're playing the exact same game as the rest of the world, despite being called out for generalization.


Ah, but I don't play on Japanese servers, I don't have a Japanese schedule, and I don't live in a Japanese culture. I'm stuck with NA players on my NA schedule and my NA culture. That's awesome and somewhat enviable that Japanese gamers are so much more hospitable to people who are trying to learn fights (and take the time to prepare as best as they can). Unfortunately, that's just not how NA players roll. That's why, on NA servers, you really need to have a static in order to make reasonable progress -- especially if you're a busy adult like myself.

Quote:
Second Point: that's the problem with this game's content structure and should tell you off the bat: The people capable of clearing content will get content cleared quickly and thus are only left with content that, if poorly designed (Alexander Gordias Savage) will be the only thing left to do.


There are many people capable of clearing content who don't get those quick clears. Many of them are exactly like me... we're busy adults who can't afford to prioritize a video game above the rest of our lives. After missing that initial wave, we're simply not able to realistically get these done in a way that's quick and efficient. Those learning parties quickly turn to farm parties, and there's much less will on NA servers to help people get clears. Having a great FC helps a lot, but even then, the eight-person requirement makes scheduling clear times difficult.

Quote:
You don't have to be hardcore to progress in a game that holds your hand through content and continually nerfed in order to catch people up quickly.


"holds your hand through content"... I'm not sure I follow on this. The game doesn't do the dodging for you or automatically guide your character through mechanics unharmed. All of these fights take repetition and memorization to learn, and all of these fights require finding seven other people who are on the same page.

Even the pro players don't clear extreme primals their first many times through. Those guys play for hours on end, experimenting with trial and error, in order to be first through. And that's the kind of stuff you're claiming is "hand-holding" easy.


Edited, Mar 21st 2016 1:40pm by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#186 Mar 21 2016 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,157 posts
Quote:
I guess this depends on what you mean by "commitment." Perhaps that's the hangup.

I considered FFXI content such as sky/dynamis to require commitment from participants. However, contributing in sky/dynamis/limbus/etc. didn't require several weeks of repetitive practicing and flawless execution by everyone involved. THAT is the kind of content this game needs, and that's the kind of content that masses of players like myself want. To characterize that as "zero commitment" seems awfully deceitful, although you may not have had that in mind when you wrote your reply.

This is generally where I meant content may wind up seeming "easier" in the end. If we're being honest, Sky content in XI didn't really need an alliance until Kirin, and that's only because of the god spawns. Sky was just a bunch of little busy work where you chased some smaller NMs to eventually do the big ones. Odds are the more hardcore players in a shell were doing that while the minions showed up for the gods. Sometimes they helped in the earlier phases, but you can't much fault someone for not wanting to wait 8 hours for an Ulli spawn prior to it going poppable. But as far as the reward scheme for Sky went, it sucked. None of the loot on the fodder NMs was really desired. A lot of the cursed gear was garbage even if HQed. Osode might've been the pinnacle of the event's rewards, but if you didn't fall into SE's eastern job fetish, there's a good chance you were playing one who couldn't use it anyway. Heck, never got cuisses for my RDM because people kept playing the, "PLDs need it more!" card even if the recipient wasn't a PLD main.

Overall, my message hasn't been to drop raiding, but not to treat it as the be all, end all of MMOing. It can easily remain as singular events where high quality stuff comes out of it. Yet, there still needs that alternative where people can do a number of lesser tasks to come out in the same place, even if more slowly. Again, counter-argument usually boils down to the feeling people either don't need or deserve such an option, neglecting the fact work is still work. I will continue to argue they'd technically make raids more accessible and, in a game like XIV with multiple jobs on a single character, actually would give people things to do between raid times. Unfortunately, this is where that mix of stubbornness from players and devs alike comes into play, particularly from new devs today who were yesteryear's players hoping to relive the good ol' days. There's also the simple fact that how a game is designed influences how we play it. If the takeaway here is that NA players a bunch of lazy tools, then it's our fault for nurturing the environment. That's not an issue of things going mainstream, much as I see hipster rhetoric attached to gaming. It's because we've been rewarding the wrong behaviors for way too long. Maybe even being too lax on punishing those that shouldn't be tolerated (Think rampant sexism, racism, homophobia, harassment, trolling, and other ill behaviors in global chats). Eliminating cross-server functionality, as an argument I've seen employed to bring back "community" in these games, won't fix those issues. Lord knows they didn't in XI.
____________________________
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
#187 Mar 21 2016 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If the takeaway here is that NA players a bunch of lazy tools, then it's our fault for nurturing the environment. That's not an issue of things going mainstream, much as I see hipster rhetoric attached to gaming. It's because we've been rewarding the wrong behaviors for way too long. Maybe even being too lax on punishing those that shouldn't be tolerated (Think rampant sexism, racism, homophobia, harassment, trolling, and other ill behaviors in global chats).


This is a great point.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#188 Mar 22 2016 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
****
4,175 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Players want to press a button, endure a brief wait and then be whisked off to contentland. If they can't join a group for content with literally 0 commitment on their own part, said content is deemed 'inaccessible'.


There is a huge area between "zero commitment" and treating something like a part-time job. Most of us are in that area. MMOs, xiv included, don't cater well lately to that large group at endgame. To its credit, catering to this group is something FFXI did extremely well.

Raiding demands a certain amount of time. If you want any sort of challenge from the content then it's going to demand more time from you. Simply the nature of the beast. Regardless, that time requirement does nearly nothing when you start to tool with the group so I don't see why you're still trying to link the two. The only numbers worth comparing are the amount of time you'd spend clearing a raid in a pick-up group vs a static. The difference doesn't swing from reasonable to 'part-time job'. Please stahp.

There is no huge area between the two. You either make time to raid or you don't. The only partial commitment is non-commitment of running in pick-ups when you can get them. If you don't like the idea of having a static group I get it, but people are clearing in pick-ups so that point doesn't stand on it's own. Mayhaps there's another reason you don't like statics that you're incorrectly attributing time to?

Either way, the flowchart is rather simple. If you don't have the time then you're out. Doesn't matter what your group is because they're not saving you a significant amount of time short term. If you do have the time then you only have to decide if you're willing to invest it or not. You're drawing connections that aren't really there.



____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#189 Mar 22 2016 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Raiding demands a certain amount of time. If you want any sort of challenge from the content then it's going to demand more time from you.


Myself and others in this thread aren't making the case for more challenging content. We're making the case for more accessible midcore content like what was found in FFXI, where newcomers could join veteran players and participate without dooming runs to failure. You're talking about something completely different.

Quote:
The only numbers worth comparing are the amount of time you'd spend clearing a raid in a pick-up group vs a static. The difference doesn't swing from reasonable to 'part-time job'. Please stahp.


Are you honestly saying it takes the same amount of time to clear in a pickup group vs. a static -- or even that it's remotely close? Spoken like someone who doesn't play the game.

When I think part-time job, I think of something that takes a few hours for 3-5 days per week. That perfectly summarizes the schedules of many hardcore raiding schedules. My content static only meets one night/week. And it's not because we don't want to play more, but because we're all responsible adults with more important things to do, and one night/week is all the time we can afford. Most of us never had the chance to get clears on the recent extreme primals, and we're all excited to finally get in there and get clears. Some of our members never got coil finished; we're going to work on that, too. There were many others in my FC who wanted to join the group, which I specifically advertised as just one night/week.

There's a HUGE demand in this game for endgame content that doesn't require the hours of a part-time job. This game will be largely complete if/when SE eventually adds that in.

You can safely put your "zero commitment" talk to bed.

Quote:
There is no huge area between the two. You either make time to raid or you don't.


This is true... if you don't have more important things to do with your life. But if you do have more important things going on, and you don't have extra time, then you can't make the time. And raiding in FFXIV is a very time-intensive endeavor unless you're looking for a carry long after content has been released.

Quote:
The only partial commitment is non-commitment of running in pick-ups when you can get them.


What pick-up groups? Haven't seen learning parties in the PF for Sephirot Ex that don't require experience in later stages of the fight, and even those are extremely rare -- it's pretty much just farm parties now. There were true learning parties immediately after the patch, but they're long gone.

Quote:
If you don't like the idea of having a static group I get it, but people are clearing in pick-ups so that point doesn't stand on it's own.


People do clear this content in pickup groups, but as myself and several others have told you, that's a very rare thing to happen on NA servers. I couldn't even clear Bismark Ex in pickup groups, even once I knew the fight front-to-back. I only finally got my clear once I badgered people in my FC to going along with me -- mostly out of mercy because of how futile pickup parties are. Again, if you played the game, you'd be more aware of this dynamic.

Quote:
Either way, the flowchart is rather simple. If you don't have the time then you're out.


FINALLY, you said something that's correct.

Quote:
Doesn't matter what your group is because they're not saving you a significant amount of time short term.


... and then you totally redeemed yourself!

Quote:
If you do have the time then you only have to decide if you're willing to invest it or not.


This is exactly what I've been telling you for weeks/months now. If you have the time, then you can choose whether to spend it on learning the raids. But if you don't have the time, then you're out (your words, not mine).

And this is exactly why myself and others want FFXIV to have more endgame content like FFXI had. In FFXI, people who didn't have massive amounts of free time weren't shut out from endgame. Sure, it might take you longer to get your drops (because of player-managed attendance/loot systems), but most of XI's endgame was open for anyone to participate. In fact, new members were often coveted and welcomed! Only certain types of endgame activities, such as Nyzul Isle, were dominated by statics -- but that's because they imposed harsh party size restrictions that didn't exist elsewhere in endgame.

Filth, I don't understand why you keep beating this dead horse. I know you're close to my age, and I refuse to believe that you don't know people whose lives prohibit them from setting aside hours per night to play a video game. So what's your deal? Why keep barking up the wrong tree?

Edited, Mar 21st 2016 11:55pm by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#190 Mar 22 2016 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
***
3,737 posts
Quote:
In FFXI, people who didn't have massive amounts of free time weren't shut out from endgame.


You keep losing me here.. were we playing the same game? FFXI was composed almost entirely of time commitments. It was a primary material used in construction.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#191 Mar 22 2016 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
In FFXI, you could join a dynamis group and show up to just one run per week. Or you could join a sky group and just go for an hour or two. Same with einherjar and limbus. There were certainly hardcore groups that required participation at all events, but it was always easy to find more relaxed groups too.

For example, if you wanted to join a dynamis group, most would not require you to have already beaten Dynamis Lord. All you needed was to be free one of the nights. And while you might have never received your rdm hat, you still could have obtained numerous other drops with casual participation. It couldn't be further from what xiv'S endgame is like.

A big reason for this was that groups weren't heavily penalized for bringing in inexperienced players, because not every single person in XI'S endgame had to be responsible for avoiding a storm of insta-wipe mechanics. In XIV, newcomers are effectively shut out of participation because of the degree of repetition involved to memorize fight scripts. That didn't exist in XI... newcomers could come along and be useful simply by providing healing or dps.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 7:36am by Thayos

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 7:40am by Thayos

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 7:41am by Thayos

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 7:42am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#192 Mar 22 2016 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,820 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
In FFXI, people who didn't have massive amounts of free time weren't shut out from endgame.


You keep losing me here.. were we playing the same game? FFXI was composed almost entirely of time commitments. It was a primary material used in construction.


Honestly, the only time blackhole in XI for it's prime were ground kings. Everything else end-game wise people had on a time rotation, for example we did maybe Sky/Sea gods > Dynamis/Limbus to end the night or did Einherjar, Nyzul/Savage to round out the night and so on. XI did have its time commitments, especially if you wanted to be good at your job(s).

But I think the main disconnect here is in comparison, XIV has very little time commitment because yes, it does hold your hand through all content but Savage, which is why Midas 4 usually has the saltiest people because you should never hit that enrage because literally nothing exciting is happening in that fight to cause wipes other than poor playstyle. Same with Ravana and so on.
____________________________

#193 Mar 22 2016 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
XIV has very little time commitment because yes, it does hold your hand through all content but Savage


But here we hit the second big disconnect, which is that normal-mode Midas isn't really endgame. It's also not the kind of content the game needs right now.

Quote:
it does hold your hand through all content but Savage, which is why Midas 4 usually has the saltiest people because you should never hit that enrage because literally nothing exciting is happening in that fight to cause wipes other than poor playstyle. Same with Ravana and so on.


Also, I still don't understand how content such as extreme primals holds your hand. Anyone who doesn't watch videos to prepare for these fights is doomed to fail repeatedly until the fight's rotation is learned. Seriously, we're talking a 100 percent failure rate, even among the game's best players. Nobody walks in cold and wins on their first time -- unless the content has been out for months and the person is being carried, but that's not what I'm referring to.

The only content in the game I can think of that literally holds your hand are the lower-level job quests, where help text literally appears on the screen that says something like, "I'll fight this one, you go fight those other two guys!" THAT is hand-holding. Just because content has become easy for you doesn't mean it is holding people's hands.

EDIT: Or, by "hand holding," are you referring to the lack of massive insta-wipe mechanics through most of the fights?

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 8:11am by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#194 Mar 22 2016 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
But I think the main disconnect here is in comparison, XIV has very little time commitment


Overall, XIV is much less of a time commitment than XI, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it. But within FFXIV, there's a huge disconnect between the core of the game and its small amount of true endgame, which suddenly requires a much greater time commitment. Newcomers to endgame who want to just raid one night per week are essentially shut out of the system because XIV's endgame is so punishing toward players who haven't memorized entire fight scripts.

And simply finding seven other people to play even one night per week with you can be tremendously difficult. My static is now three weeks old, and not once has EVERYONE shown up. We're all adults, and people have jobs, kids, families, etc... it's just very difficult to make real life unfold around a video game. Because of this, we haven't even been able to attempt the newer, harder extreme primals (let alone anything savage mode). This completely mirrors the trends of other statics I've been in, and it's why XIV's endgame is so heavily flawed.

In FFXI, nobody needed a static to reasonably participate in endgame content. You could just find a linkshell that ran on a night you were likely to be free and show up that night. No need to watch tons of videos, no repetitive dying, no frustration. There was always a spot at the table for the busy, new-to-endgame player.

FFXIV needs that.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#195 Mar 22 2016 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,737 posts
Quote:
But here we hit the second big disconnect, which is that normal-mode Midas isn't really endgame


Smiley: confused

It happens after the level cap. It is by definition endgame. It's not the highest progression of endgame content, that'd be Savage. But it's definitely endgame content.

Quote:
It's also not the kind of content the game needs right now.


Fair. I'd like XIV to have more midcore content too. I'd like XIV to have more content overall, and I'm not a colossal fan of their current forumla of endgame progression.

Quote:
for example we did maybe Sky/Sea gods > Dynamis/Limbus to end the night or did Einherjar, Nyzul/Savage to round out the night and so on.


You just named a bunch of things that require pretty decent time commitments, not only in execution but also in prep. And time commitments on a regular basis, or on lockouts, or both necessitating statics for meaningful progression. I know it's possible to do Dynamis casually. I did Dynamis casually. It's content that pretty much called for "enough" CC and warm bodies. But Dynamis was the exception in there.

Quote:
But I think the main disconnect here is in comparison, XIV has very little time commitment because yes, it does hold your hand through all content but Savage


Wut? I don't recall having the game guide me through Ravana EX. I recall having to bash my face against it with my static until we got the fight down properly.

I do feel that XIV requires less time on average to complete various endgame activities than XI did, but I also feel like that's by design. XI was designed with the idea that you'd be doing the same content literally for years on end. XIV doesn't do that, and that's a good thing overall. Hell ask the people raiding in WoW right now how much they've enjoyed being in the current raid tier for a single year, let alone five+ farming the same bosses every week getting earth crystals from Kirin.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#196 Mar 22 2016 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
It happens after the level cap. It is by definition endgame. It's not the highest progression of endgame content, that'd be Savage. But it's definitely endgame content.


I think gear design is part of the reason midas nm doesn't feel like endgame. To me, it seems more like side content that should be to help people gear up their second jobs to prepare for endgame. It's strange that the gear isn't even as good as what you get from grinding super easy dungeons and the pvp roulette.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#197 Mar 22 2016 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,820 posts
Thayos wrote:

EDIT: Or, by "hand holding," are you referring to the lack of massive insta-wipe mechanics through most of the fights?

Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 8:11am by Thayos

____________________________

#198 Mar 22 2016 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Hio, if that's the case, then I understand more about where you're coming from. I still don't think that's quite the definition of "hand holding," but that content definitely is more forgiving if one or two people don't know what they're doing.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#199 Mar 22 2016 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*****
12,820 posts
Thayos wrote:
Hio, if that's the case, then I understand more about where you're coming from. I still don't think that's quite the definition of "hand holding," but that content definitely is more forgiving if one or two people don't know what they're doing.


Yeah it's hard to explain what it would be considered in English since the way that language works. Since for example Thordan and Sephirot are extremely easy, but comparing strictly these 2 fights, Sephirot, while more rip your face off, is far more forgiving with a good group of players if you have 1 or 2 deaths all the time, but with bad players it's unforgiving before you'll meet that enrage pretty quickly. Thordan, one death can throw off the whole flow even though these 2 fights in particular are mechanic heavy rather than straight DPS.

I use Ravana as an example because most of his phases are purely based around his bloodlust meter and he literally spends most of his time charging up attacks during said phases, so aside cleaves and a tank buster, he doesn't do all that much. Which is why even back in last July, most people were usually stonewalled by the swift and final liberation because people seem to either panic or not know how to separate themselves, otherwise, there's really nothing...bad in the newer ex primals that makes them hard besides sadly who you end up with. The original 1.0-2.x Ex primals were less forgiving in a sense because aside the song & dance they also required a more than normal player skill but not as strict as doing Coil or Savage Alexander.
____________________________

#200 Mar 22 2016 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,175 posts
Thayos wrote:
Filth, I don't understand why you keep beating this dead horse. I know you're close to my age, and I refuse to believe that you don't know people whose lives prohibit them from setting aside hours per night to play a video game. So what's your deal? Why keep barking up the wrong tree?


My deal is that I'm one of the very people you refer to. I personally never set a consistent schedule to play XIV because I knew I could do what i wanted to do in the time i was able to play. If you can't consistently play for a long enough time period to get solid attempts in it's one thing, but none of the excuses you're making here point to that.

I would have no issue with you saying "I can't raid because the longest I can play at any one time is an hour". That would be fine, but I highly doubt that you don't have times where you spend enough time that you could have made it effective in a raid setting if that was what you wanted to do. Sometimes I had 2 hours, sometimes I had 4 hours and sometimes I had to leave raids earlier than expected due to unforseen circumstances. Regardless, I was able to complete the content because I chose to.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#201 Mar 22 2016 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I would have no issue with you saying "I can't raid because the longest I can play at any one time is an hour".


I don't raid because I can't ever guarantee when I'll be playing, and this prevents me from making plans. The best I can do is a once/week static that I'll be able to make -most- of the time, but still not all of the time. Anyone who is as busy as I am can't make air-tight definitive plans to be in game.

My content static may eventually get to the point where we start making incremental gains on the newest content... but even if we're able to do that in the rare weeks when we're all online, that's a pretty crappy basis for endgame. This game needs endgame content that's more in line with what we had in FFXI, where groups such as linkshells and free companies can plan event nights that aren't contingent upon a fixed number of highly experienced players. In XI, you could do "endgame" events whether your group on any given night had 12 people or 36 people. In FFXIV, you MUST HAVE EIGHT OR GTFO. And they'd all better know what they're doing, or all you're going to do is wipe repeatedly for an hour or two.

SE can keep the 8-man raiding for those who want to do it... but really, the game would benefit mightily from something more people can realistically participate in, and not only do once in a blue moon when the planets align and eight busy schedules miraculously line up.

I've pretty much given up on Diadem being that missing piece. I'm hopeful though that in the next expansion, maybe SE will take that last step and make a realm of content that's what the Diadem easily could have been. We'll see. Maybe SE addresses this problem, or maybe this will always be the game's Achilles heel. Nothing would surprise me.


Edited, Mar 22nd 2016 2:30pm by Thayos
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
This thread is locked
You cannot post in a locked topic!
Recent Visitors: 4 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (4)