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Tank damage after the patch? Thoughts?Follow

#1 Mar 12 2016 at 4:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Long queue ahead of me, so i may as well get this out of the way.

Pretty sure everyone is up to speed about the changes. STR got cripled as a stat for tanks, VIT got used as a damage modifier instead and we got a little extra enmity to compensate for it.

But i only have my own experiences to go by.

After burning my STR set and scattering it's remains over whatever dodo nest i could find, i found the nearest training dummy and poked it on both my PLD and my DRK for a while till i got a little depressed about the numbers. It's not going to hurt us for dungeons i think, since the added enmity pretty much gets us on the same level if not a little further (to catch up to crazy i230 DPS damage/enmity). But it's frustrating. As a tank i dont exactly suffer from big-number-syndrome, but it was nice seeing 2800 crits every now and then.

My PLD isnt doing too bad. DRK took a bit of a hit. How is WAR faring during this? I remember those guys in a STR set used to be in the top even amongst DPS.

Did people get so frustrated over it they stopped tanking and only made the tank problem even bigger for the rest of us? A bad move on SE's part reminiscent of the Healing/MP chances back from 1.0 that pretty much made everyone quit being a healer till 1.23 or was this actually a good thing?

Thoughts?
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#2 Mar 12 2016 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know..

After trying my numbers in A7S seems about the same as pre change just not needing to completely ignore the VIT drops this go around was the biggest change. On DRK I'm still around 1200 DPS and about 890 with Tank Stance. STR and VIT is still essentially the same so it just seems like it was crippled but it's realistically only "a few points apart" unless you're into the higher end raids that takes actual DPS numbers.

So you will see a drop only in the tanks who were bad before. WAR is about the same as its always been: Overpowered. The enmity boost didn't help at all in the sense now they definitely never need their tank stance.

As I expected (and tend to always be right about mechanical changes because I've kept up on the content that actually takes everything into consideration) the biggest change to tanks came in the form of the extra HP. You need that HP in every non MSQ content in this patch and will in the future. So the fact STR and VIT are technically the same (Hybrid setups are what suffers) you want the VIT for the HP overall because tank busters in 3.2 are no joke. So the damage is more "steady" now if you really get down to it. So I guess it depends on how you look at it per content basis, in these fairly easy dungeons this cycle, the VIT/STR changes aren't that huge but the HP definitely helps..in Midas Savage and Sephirot Extreme the extra DPS from the vit change along with the HP boost is crucial, so tanks were "nerfed" but tank's current non-Savage BiS is fully melded ilvl220 crafted gear unless you do Savage to upgrade your lore pieces to 240.

So damage wise:

WAR > DRK > PLD as usual at top shape

Mitigation wise:

PLD > DRK = WAR

Utility wise:

WAR > PLD > DRK

The changes to PLD were decent but considering you need to maintain 650 accuracy while trying to gear more towards DPS stats (Crit/Det) getting your tank's damage up is a bit finicky this cycle but clearly done to make the crafted sets relevant.
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#3 Mar 12 2016 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm thankful for the extra HP even in Midas NM. I got a little lazy the other day and didn't pop a cooldown, and the healers didn't quite top me off, and boom... dead.

Kind of nice to have to pay closer attention.
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#4 Mar 13 2016 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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It's pretty crappy, but you mainly just have to realize nobody else cared about your damage anyway to begin with.
#5 Mar 13 2016 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
It's pretty crappy, but you mainly just have to realize nobody else cared about your damage anyway to begin with.


In non-progression content, you mean. Since this is like saying no one cares about healer DPS when every bit of DPS helps in progression content.
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#6 Mar 13 2016 at 7:55 PM Rating: Default
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In non-progression content, you mean. Since this is like saying no one cares about healer DPS when every bit of DPS helps in progression content.


No, seriously, nobody cares about your DPS if you're not a DPS. It isn't your role.

Nobody has ever cared about the damage I did as a healer as long as people stayed alive. Similarly, nobody cares about the damage you do as a tank as long as you keep hate and don't die.

Stressing about damage loss on WHM when Holy got nerfed, and about damage loss on tanks now in 3.2, is ultimately meaningless, because you were the only person in the group that cared.
#7 Mar 13 2016 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
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In non-progression content, you mean. Since this is like saying no one cares about healer DPS when every bit of DPS helps in progression content.


No, seriously, nobody cares about your DPS if you're not a DPS. It isn't your role.

Nobody has ever cared about the damage I did as a healer as long as people stayed alive. Similarly, nobody cares about the damage you do as a tank as long as you keep hate and don't die.

Stressing about damage loss on WHM when Holy got nerfed, and about damage loss on tanks now in 3.2, is ultimately meaningless, because you were the only person in the group that cared.


As much as doing so gives me an ulcer... Hio is right. *breathes into bag*

Tank and healer dps is actually super important when you're talking about savage progression. That's why you, for instance, see scholars stacking accuracy... because their dps is significant and important.
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#8 Mar 14 2016 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
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As much as doing so gives me an ulcer... Hio is right. *breathes into bag*

Tank and healer dps is actually super important when you're talking about savage progression. That's why you, for instance, see scholars stacking accuracy... because their dps is significant and important.


I'm not talking about niche things like raid progression, I'm talking about this game in general. You guys are the only ones talking specifically about raid progression.

For the rest of the game most of the rest of us are playing, nobody cares about the damage you are putting out as healer/tank as long as you are fulfilling your role.

In fact, my experience is that people are actually wary of healers that try too hard to deal damage even when the party's health is just fine. I usually tell them "too Fing bad" but I think it's important to recognize what this game is like outside of raid progression because the vast majority of people playing this game are not doing raid progression.

I also don't happen to think it's healthy to fret about numbers in a video game that literally only you care about.
#9 Mar 14 2016 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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As much as doing so gives me an ulcer... Hio is right. *breathes into bag*

Tank and healer dps is actually super important when you're talking about savage progression. That's why you, for instance, see scholars stacking accuracy... because their dps is significant and important.


I'm not talking about niche things like raid progression, I'm talking about this game in general


Just because you don't do raid content doesn't make it "niche" which is why SE should have never released numbers on Savage Alexander because people love to take it out of context. "Niche" also means Ex Primals if your definition of "niche" is "small amount amount of content", because the majority of this game's content that remains are: "Talk to NPC ABCD123 and do a few easy dungeons here and there."

The content that remains every patch cycle tends to be alliance content (and purely because of the gear lockout) and Raid content like Coil/Alexander Savage (because it requires you to go beyond "basic gameplay.") So yes, you may not be talking about niche things, but the whole hoopla over wanting tank changes and why tanks even went STR setup to begin with is because as the ilvl increased and DPS got stronger, tanks that weren't warriors fell behind further and further. I mean, 3-5 months with no content updates in between is a long time to sit around - Throw in the fact CRAFTED SETS are actually better than Midan Normal sets overall so you can actually skip doing it altogether which further lowers the amount of content you have available to you until May/June.

This goes back to even FFXI days where being a "turtle" was inefficient compared to actually trying to put out damage until the later years where PLD and RUN could do a bit of both (you need a turtle setup for certain encounters as holding enmity became far easier.)

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For the rest of the game most of the rest of us are playing, nobody cares about the damage you are putting out as healer/tank as long as you are fulfilling your role.


"The rest of us are playing" - Btw Antitower and Lost City of Amdapor Hard are SIGNIFICANTLY longer if your healer and tank aren't putting out damage. I mean, I get "playing your way", but if you look at any healer and tank worth their salt...they're actually working towards putting out as much damage as they can and is exactly why you're seeing healers stacking accuracy. (Don't even pretend you don't see this in 3.2.) Not to mention Antitower and Lost City HM has so little damage coming out what else will your healers do...? Tanks don't even need to be in a tank stance and help with the damage, especially WAR and DRK which excels at AoE damage and hate holding (PLD is still a bit behind in this regard.)

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I also don't happen to think it's healthy to fret about numbers in a video game that literally only you care about.


You do realize this subgenre of RPGs (nevermind the fact RPGs in general) has always been about numbers right? Have you...never played D&D?

I was going to ignore this but I need to address this simply because I don't understand the argument of "outside raid progression" when you can't even touch raid progression unless you work your way up to it due to requirements or learning how to play the game:

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In fact, my experience is that people are actually wary of healers that try too hard to deal damage even when the party's health is just fine. I usually tell them "too Fing bad" but I think it's important to recognize what this game is like outside of raid progression


I think it's important to know what this game is like when you actually do all content available to you. I'll make the assumption you pony farm or stick to EX primals like ravana and Bismarck and haven't even touched Thordan Ex or Sephirot Ex (I highly doubt you set foot in here). The only time healers are wary about DPSing is if they feel they can't do both, the tank will die or "I'm a healer not a DPS!" despite even your class quests and job quests tell you straight up that your role isn't to simply heal and stand there doing nothing while no one's HP is dropping. Seriously, you were given attack spells for a reason on WHM and AST. SCH is a special case because ACN branches off into 2 jobs which is why it's almost expected for a SCH to DPS (and can easily pull as little as 700 DPS which is probably more than your basic DPS that doesn't care about numbers.)

So yes, Tank and Healer dps are important MOSTLY for progression where you have to pull your weight no matter what role you are. However, I guess I'm not too surprised. I think it's funny though you mentioned "as long as you fulfill your role" which includes DPSing.

Trust me, I kept up with the whole "Healers aren't DPS" and "Tanks aren't DPS" debate on the OF from the people that I've even eneded up with in Ex Roulette who couldn't even heal properly, so I know "how the game is", but just because you don't do raid progression doesn't mean you shouldn't be playing your job to the best of your ability; You may not need the best gear UNLESS you're touching raid content, but why do you even have a line of Aero or Stone attack spells as WHM? Why does Assize deal 300 potency AoE damage along with healing if WHMs were meant to "only heal"? Trust me, at level 56 you're doing no raid content (starts at 60 in HW)

I don't know, I guess I'm just one of those weird tanks and healers that actually stance dance even in "insignificant content" because I know it'll make things go so much smoother and faster, and don't even say "why rush blah blah blah", no one wants to spend 45-65+ minutes in a dungeon that takes far less to do when everyone is pulling their weight - and no, simply clicking cure II or flash/unleash/overpower every now and then isn't pulling your weight.





Edited, Mar 14th 2016 5:37am by Theonehio

Edited, Mar 14th 2016 5:47am by Theonehio
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#10 Mar 14 2016 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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Tangent to this... I saw someone make the argument the other day that higher difficulty levels of raids don't matter (this was talking about WoW, though it applies here as well) because the gear does nothing in the outside world you couldn't do with other gear. That feels a little bit like what Fynlar is talking about here. It's an argument of "I don't do the content the gear is for so the gear is irrelevant."

Just because you may not do savage raids doesn't mean they aren't part of the game. In this context it just means that the tank damage changes don't matter to you. It doesn't mean they don't matter at all. Because yes, in savage raids and to a lesser extent EX primals tank and healer damage absolutely do matter and are the difference between clearing the content and wiping.

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I also don't happen to think it's healthy to fret about numbers in a video game that literally only you care about.


Smiley: dubious Have you played RPGs before?

Edited, Mar 14th 2016 9:45am by Callinon
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#11 Mar 14 2016 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's pretty crappy, but you mainly just have to realize nobody else cared about your damage anyway to begin with.


I think Fynlar is simply pointing out that raid progression content (which I consider to be the hardcore raids, not the NM raids) makes up such a small part of this game -- and that small part is only played by a small percentage of the playerbase.

So, for most people, the essence of the game is made up of roulettes, normal modes, extreme primals, crafting, glamors, etc. And while everyone loves a party with rocking DPS, I've personally never been in a party -- or seen anyone complain (in the game) -- about a tank not putting out enough damage.

I never even put STR accessories on my paladin -- I've been a VIT tank this whole time -- yet I raked in the commendations and never had a single complaint.

The only real discussion I heard regarding tank damage was about how paladin was getting the shaft, but that seems like it has been mostly fixed/balanced now. And now, post patch, I've yet to hear anyone complain about anything in game or in parties.

So everyone here is essentially correct. As Fynlar said, most people didn't care a whole lot (if at all) about tank DPS to begin with. But the small fraction of players who do progression raiding cared much more, and for them these changes are far more impactful. For the rest of us, it's more a matter of having a sense of fairness.

Edited, Mar 14th 2016 9:15am by Thayos
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#12 Mar 14 2016 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, even in roulettes or ex primals (ESPECIALLY Ravana, Thordan and Sephirot) Tank and Healer DPS still matters because not only does every content since...2.3? have enrage timers, but the faster you kill things = more you can farm = less time spent on it = overall win win. Killing Ravana long before final liberation is ideal, getting Sephirot to 62% before the push is ideal and 30% before the first Words spawn is ideal and so on - Stuff like that doesn't happen if you have 2 tanks and 2 healers slacking cuz "our DPS don't matter." When it comes to beating enrage..it's so much better to beat it by 4 minutes than skirt by and potentially wipe at 0.2% where that .2% could have been obtained by your Tank doing more than an enmity combo for example :p

So I get what he was implying...but pretty much unless you're doing strictly 2.0-2.4 content which you're 104-112 ilvls over their cap, pretty much all DPS matters. That's why tank changes were so rallied for because in content where party coordination and gameplay matters (progression), tanks just weren't in that great of a spot. Warriors fared better but PLD and DRK just wasn't sitting right. So if your gameplay consists of doing "Hard Mode", Quests and Roulette dungeons, there's really nothing to worry about. But once you start getting into content where optimization means an overall happy time for everyone involved...you best believe DPS matters.

So DPS overall is better for tanks but it's still a bit finicky because BiS is crafted or Midan Savage gear. Lore falls into a weird area currently. So just as an example:

Antitower -
DRK(me) - 1220 DPS
WHM - 510 DPS
SMN - 1470 DPS
(Ifrit)
MCH - 1300 DPS
(Bishop Turret)
Time: 22:18

The fact me and the WHM were dpsing is what sped things up, if you don't care about DPS from them, cool, but that's why you end up in some roulettes that take up to and over an hour to complete, let alone 5+ minutes on one pull. So there's no "right or wrong" in a sense, other than yes, our DPS does matter and yes it's mostly in progression content, but as I posed the question, why wouldn't you want to maximize yourself?





Edited, Mar 14th 2016 1:55pm by Theonehio
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#13 Mar 14 2016 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Because maximizing requires doing hardcore raiding, which I don't find remotely fun. It would be better if I had the schedule for a hardcore raiding static, which I dont. So I do what I can with the content that is enjoyable and playable for me.

Edited, Mar 14th 2016 3:44pm by Thayos
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#14 Mar 14 2016 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really, it's already been proven in terms of gear, overmelding the crafted 220 gear is BiS for many until you do savage and even then, weapon aside, it's still up to par.

Maximizing just means knowing how to play and how to do a rotation that isn't just spamming your AoE skill and 123 combo :p For example just because it has high potency doesn't necessarily mean it's good for your DPS rotation on tank; DRK for example the Souleater combo is far superior for damage overall.

I still don't get why it's considered "hardcore"..but then again I guess that's the fault of the localization team and realistically, yoshi for changing the difficulty direction of the game during 2.0's cycle and keeping the same naming since you can't really classify the previous EX primals as "Primal Ex" then classify Thordan and Sephirot Ex as "Hardcore Primal Ex" since Sephirot is harder than A5S and Thordan was in between A1S and A2S.



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#15 Mar 15 2016 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maximizing just means knowing how to play and how to do a rotation that isn't just spamming your AoE skill and 123 combo


That's only part of it. Maximizing also means working toward BiS gear.

I'm totally down with playing my job correctly. And I do. But I have no desire to mine savage-mode content for BiS gear. I also have no desire to spend gil putting materia on crafted gear. My ideal progression content is through normal-mode raiding, extreme primals, farming tomes and doing the relic weapon quests.


Edited, Mar 15th 2016 8:52am by Thayos
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#16 Mar 17 2016 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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It is all a matter of perspective. Both sides of the coin have merit, and there isn't much point arguing over it when SE have made the decision for the correct reason.

To the casual player who occasionally tries harder content, but is by no means progression orientated, the tank changes are irrelevant. The people who moan about an expert taking 5 mins longer than before because tank dps is lower are very likely the same people who moan that tanks don't do as much dps in high end raiding. If I run an expert that takes 35 mins rather than 25, it really doesn't bother me, because just like family, you can't pick who the duty finder matches you with, just deal with it. However you can choose your friends, so if a sub 20 min expert is the only acceptable expert, go preformed.

On the raid perspective, every point of dps counts. If a tank suddenly had their dps dropped by a couple of hundred or more, that will be noticeable, especially in content previously on farm as it should be slower. However, we need to be weary of knee jerk reactions here because I imagine going forward, we will see higher overall mob dmg on tanks, and slightly lax dps checks, to accommodate the higher hp pools and lower overall raid dmg.

That's my 2 cents anyway :)
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#17 Mar 17 2016 at 12:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bleh double post!

Edited, Mar 17th 2016 2:55am by Velerophon
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#18 Mar 17 2016 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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Velerophon wrote:
It is all a matter of perspective. Both sides of the coin have merit, and there isn't much point arguing over it when SE have made the decision for the correct reason.

To the casual player who occasionally tries harder content, but is by no means progression orientated, the tank changes are irrelevant. The people who moan about an expert taking 5 mins longer than before because tank dps is lower are very likely the same people who moan that tanks don't do as much dps in high end raiding. If I run an expert that takes 35 mins rather than 25, it really doesn't bother me, because just like family, you can't pick who the duty finder matches you with, just deal with it. However you can choose your friends, so if a sub 20 min expert is the only acceptable expert, go preformed.

On the raid perspective, every point of dps counts. If a tank suddenly had their dps dropped by a couple of hundred or more, that will be noticeable, especially in content previously on farm as it should be slower. However, we need to be weary of knee jerk reactions here because I imagine going forward, we will see higher overall mob dmg on tanks, and slightly lax dps checks, to accommodate the higher hp pools and lower overall raid dmg.

That's my 2 cents anyway :)


Sadly, "going preformed" isn't the solution, because when everyone is fresh to the new dungeons, it'll take time. If I see you're a DPS pushing ilvl220+ I expected it to take 20-25 minutes at best, because 2 ilvl220 ontop of healer and tank dps should make things absolutely melt. It should be like your cheat day on a workout - nothing survives your wrath.

If I see you pushing 220 and we still take 35-55 minutes? There's problems that just shouldn't exist, but that's more of an NA/EU mentalty, because on the Japanese side, DF is seen as the "you should know what you're doing and be efficient at your job" and PF is the more "use this to practice and get used to everything" because as you said, loading the DF you're definitely going to get a mixed bag, so why not bring your best, instead of your worst?

We're not going to see lax DPS checks because Yoshida told us prior to 3.2 there won't be DPS checks going forward (that were as intense as Savage Alexander and Thordan) which, in a way he was right..but so very very wrong because Midas 1 Savage has an insane DPS check that starts the second you engage the trash mobs, which is quite a different form of DPS check because it's essentially a speed run that Yoshida seems to be so against as to why every new dungeon since the hate for it showed up has barriers/gates/doors etc that block you from running through the entire dungeon and skipping mobs you honestly have no need nor reason to fight. I'm sure people love the "story mode" version of content, but it's still honestly a waste because having stripped out mechanics aside, the actual storyline is in the "savage" version to have things make sense lol. So it's still such a weird setup to have "story mode" not even really adding up to the content. As said, once dps drops it's very noticable but once DPS gets optimized for tanks, it's even more noticable because now things are melting because, well, everyone is putting in work.

I absolutely LOATHE healers who just stand there waiting to cure. Do something.
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#19 Mar 17 2016 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Just because you don't do raid content doesn't make it "niche"


This isn't the reason that it's niche content, believe it or not.

Unlike the tanks/healers who think other people care about their damage, I'm not that full of myself.
#20 Mar 17 2016 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
Unlike the tanks/healers who think other people care about their damage, I'm not that full of myself.


I'll use your words:

Believe it or not, it has nothing to do with being full of yourself. However, after seeing a topic where you were named dropped recently, I'm not too shocked you think this way.

NA/EU playerbase compared to JP playerbase makes it all the more apparent why someone would think it's "being full of themselves". There's simply more players on the western side that don't care about how they play the game and are also the first ones to complain when they get paired with people who aren't there to waste their time and will very honestly tell them they're doing something wrong. People in the "You're just elitist!" group takes any form of feedback as harassment, which makes it borderline impossible to help anybody on NA/EU data centers sometimes.

"Just go full premade!"

Doesn't always work, or else SE would stop throwing content into the DF and leave everything "Premade only"..but then that would make people ACTUALLY realize you can't always go premade when you want to.

Actually try harder content, not just content you outlevel by 100-120 ilvls and you'll see just how much of a different Tank/Healer DPS makes in the grandscheme of things.


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#21 Mar 17 2016 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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NA/EU playerbase compared to JP playerbase makes it all the more apparent why someone would think it's "being full of themselves". There's simply more players on the western side that don't care about how they play the game and are also the first ones to complain when they get paired with people who aren't there to waste their time and will very honestly tell them they're doing something wrong. People in the "You're just elitist!" group takes any form of feedback as harassment, which makes it borderline impossible to help anybody on NA/EU data centers sometimes.


Don't use gross generalizations to make a point. Even when you're mostly right, it makes you wrong.

I care about my performance, I care about not wasting other peoples' time, I care about respect for the effort my team is making, I can take criticism when I make a mistake. I'm an NA player.

When you make generalized statements about "NA/EU players" you're always going to be wrong because no group is 100% the same across the board. Doesn't work like that.

That all being said.. yes of course tank and healer dps matters in progression content. One guy not accepting the truth because he either can't wrap his head around the concept, has never parsed a fight, or is trolling doesn't somehow make that not the case.
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#22 Mar 17 2016 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Don't use gross generalizations to make a point. Even when you're mostly right, it makes you wrong.


Totally agree with this and the rest of your post.

Though I've played with Fynlar in game quite a bit, and trust me -- he's a good player. He has nothing to prove to anyone.
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