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#27Theonehio, Posted: Apr 26 2016 at 1:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's been 3 years and supposedly they still to this day keep creating raiding systems.
#28 Apr 26 2016 at 2:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Much like Balmung gets touted as the most popular and where most casual gamers tend to go (especially RP wise), Chocobo is the 'community favorite'.


Balmung isn't "touted" as the most popular server. It IS the highest-population server. It is also the best RP server. There is no connection between Balmung and it being touted as a haven for casual gamers.

I'm not sure what you mean by Chocobo being a "community favorite," unless you're talking about the hardcore raiding community. It's certainly not the favorite JP server -- that would be Shinryu by an estimated 3k subscribers. And the Bahahut and Tonberry servers are virtually equal in size to the Chocobo server.

The only thing that makes Chocobo unique is its "strong" demographic of raiders -- and that demographic is still pretty dang weak. Only 10 percent of Chocobo's population has cleared A4S, and only 28 people (assuming no alts) have cleared the current raid tier.

When your big, bad raiding community can fit inside a school bus, that's a problem.

There's literally no comparison between the Chocobo and Balmung servers regarding their popularity among the JP and NA playerbases. Balmung is WAAAAAY bigger compared to other regional servers.

I think you're just cherry picking to bolster your flimsy argument. The data backs me up.

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People that care for progression aren't touching Goridas Savage when you can CRAFT BiS 220 pieces that's more than enough to take you to A8S. So put your white knight cape aside for a minute and think logically: If you didn't touch Shiva Ex when it was the prime way to get ilvl 120 bracelets, would you go back now and do it specifically for the gear?

You don't need to clear Gordias to access Midas Savage, there's LITERALLY no reason beyond bragging rights and a mount to clearing A4S now.


All of this is irrelevant.

Since the launch of ARR, SE has been creating these hardcore endgame raids that wrap up with abysmal completion rates. The vast majority of the game's players around the world never get to complete this content.

That's a HUGE problem. And for some reason, you seem hell-bent on defending SE for continuing to implement these raids. And you're accusing me of being a white knight. Oh, the irony!

And by the way, that section I bolded... ah, nevermind. Smiley: wink

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It's been 3 years and supposedly they still to this day keep creating raiding systems.

So, answer your own question for me.


I asked you first. Let's hear it.

(pssst.... The smart thing for you to do would be to take a deep breath and back away slowly... maybe stop digging yourself into an even deeper hole.)

/em picks up the mic and drops it again.



Edited, Apr 26th 2016 1:56pm by Thayos
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#29 Apr 26 2016 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
I'm talking more how the "hardcore players" are the unnecessary players in this game, which seems to be the main theme around here.

No one is saying that hardcore players are unnecessary. The point is that they make up such a small percentage of the player base that it's silly to make a ton of content that caters ONLY to a small handful of people. The vocal minority is still the minority.

Most people aren't mad that savage raiding exists. They just wish there more mid-range options along side it.
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#30 Apr 26 2016 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Most people aren't mad that savage raiding exists. They just wish there more mid-range options along side it.


This!!!

I'm totally fine with the existence of hardcore raiding. But if the development team really is strapped for resources -- which seems to be the consensus view on these and other forums -- then I question the logic of clinging to a raid system with such an abysmal participation rate, especially in a game that has trouble retaining players between major updates.

SE would be much wiser to develop a new endgame platform that engages more of its target audience and improve the game's retention.

But if there's a cost-effective way for that to happen while keeping hardcore raids, then sure, do it!



Edited, Apr 26th 2016 1:58pm by Thayos
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#31 Apr 26 2016 at 3:16 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
and only 28 people (assuming no alts) have cleared the current raid tier.


Might want to realize that, multiple groups even in 1 FC did it and the way they parse the A4/8 win is by ONCE A WEEK Minion/Mount acquisition, which means they're counting that as part of the clear much like the "active player" parse is counting the people who have a particular story based minion flagged on their account. At least 3 groups have cleared Midas 8 in the JP community alone, which means that's already 24 people based on those numbers, some, as said, with more than 1 group in their FC have as well Then take into consideration the multi group NA/EU runners who also cleared M8 which I know of at least 1 group that I follow on the NA/EU side..don't you think something is off on the numbers? I'm fairly sure I've passed all of my math classes and I know 4 groups of 8 is not 28.

That's why I said the way things are parsed is a bit off when using that method. There is a way to get more accurate numbers but I can promise you it's not worth getting banned over, which is why it's hard to know if SE inflates numbers or not as well (all companies do it.)

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All of this is irrelevant.


If you're talking about the Shiva Ex part being irrelevant, well, you just proved my point. Why go back for gear you have no use for just because it's "easier"? 10% clear rate won't go up if NO ONE HAS A REASON TO DO IT. See how simple that is? What you're basically getting at is, because it's a lot easier to do now (as you think) the clear rate should go up. Except for some people for completion sake, literally no one who cares about progression is going to go through A4S when you can gear up through crafting and overmelding. So no, it's actually pretty relevant - Answer the question: Would you go back to Shiva Ex now for the 120 bracelets? It's literally the same thing - That would be going back to outdated content that virtually serves no purpose, especially when you can get Ironworks stuff in almost no time now as a 50 player.

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Since the launch of ARR, SE has been creating these hardcore endgame raids that wrap up with abysmal completion rates. The vast majority of the game's players around the world never get to complete this content.


They have only created 1 hardcore raid - Savage. It started off as optional (Second Coil Savage) then became the primary means of progression with the inclusion of story mode, because creating an easy version that dropped usable gear along aside an already fairly easy raid content would have been just handing out gear. No one asked for Savage progression..but we ended up getting it. The current end game since ARR is only hardcore to you because..well you can't do it for your reasons, no one who actually does it considers it hardcore, because this game isn't a hardcore game. If we were playing wildstar, you'd have a point.

The vast majority of the players that never get to complete content is a thing that happens even outside of raids.

You know..ex primals? Just try some in the duty finder, specifically Thordan Ex and see how it goes with new players, because suffice to say, the very fact they're server only content for the longest, means people who WANT TO DO, do it then and have no reason to do it now. This is the same with end-game raids, when it hits the duty finder, that's when the people who DIDNT try it before, decide to finally try it.

"Those have higher clear rates, though!"

I said it before and I'll say it one last time: No one asked for Savage progression, people asked for it just to "see" how second coil was prior to going live. If they stuck to coil+ex format (which had higher participation levels and worked perfectly fine), it would have been fine, even more so if they decided to ADD the easier version to it, however instead they created savage version and nerfed it for the story mode..which leaves an unbalanced mess for raiders to deal with.

But you also have to realize: This game is built around ilvl balance, so the content of course, has to get harder and harder as we get stronger progressively. The problem is, they even admitted to not testing Savage Alexander properly (one phase at a time rather than start to finish), so what we got isn't even a polished product. So "dedicate time and resources?" Yes, because if you can accept them using resources on stuff like Lord or Verminion and PvP, why not the other component "a small %" people enjoy? (raiding), because I'm looking at SE's PvP stats and I can safely say, PvP isn't that popular either.
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#32 Apr 26 2016 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm fairly sure I've passed all of my math classes and I know 4 groups of 8 is not 28.


Whether 28, 32, 50 or 100 people have cleared it, all of my points stand. It's an incredibly low participation rate for such a prominent part of the game. And that's on THE BEST endgame server.

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If you're talking about the Shiva Ex part being irrelevant, well, you just proved my point.


No, that's not what I'm talking about.

Anything you would have said there would have been irrelevant. You can argue that people won't go back because the gear is obsolete, and I can argue that people would go back simply to say they've won the fight -- and none of it would matter.

All that really matters is: Do people play the content enough to justify the resources making it? And with hardcore raids, the answer (in my opinion, based on the data) is "no." Not even close. And especially not for what constitutes the game's only real endgame activity.

Nothing else is relevant.

If I ran a restaurant, and I had on my menu what I personally thought was the best steak in town, I'd ultimately remove it from my menu if barely anyone ever ordered it. It just doesn't make sense to keep trying to serve customers what they don't want.

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They have only created 1 hardcore raid - Savage


The coil raids were hardcore too, and they also had abysmal completion rates. SE made savage mode because the hardcore raid community wanted something even harder. Casual/midcore players never asked for that. In fact, many casual/midcore players still haven't cleared Coil.

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But you also have to realize: This game is built around ilvl balance, so the content of course, has to get harder and harder as we get stronger progressively. The problem is, they even admitted to not testing Savage Alexander properly (one phase at a time rather than start to finish), so what we got isn't even a polished product. So "dedicate time and resources?" Yes, because if you can accept them using resources on stuff like Lord or Verminion and PvP, why not the other component "a small %" people enjoy? (raiding), because I'm looking at SE's PvP stats and I can safely say, PvP isn't that popular either.


I have no problem with PvP, because lots of people actually do it. They may do it as a diversion, and it's not really about progression, but it's still fun. And I honestly don't care about Verminion -- in the grand scheme of ARR and beyond, I really don't think it's taken up a ton of resources (though if I had my way, I'd have spent the dev time on other things).

My problem with this style of hardcore raiding is that it's really the only true form of endgame in FFXIV, and endgame is a core component of any MMO. Most MMO players want some kind of endgame to participate in; they don't grow their characters to NOT use them at the level cap.

If I don't like PvP (which I kind of do), then I don't have to do it. If I don't like Verminion (and I don't care about it... I could care less about minions, period), then I don't have to do it.

But endgame... that's something that most players should be able to participate in. That's something most people want to do. Endgame shouldn't be just one thing; it should be several. It shouldn't be constrained to rigid eight-man setups. There should be a form of endgame that encourages FC or linkshell groups. And yeah, even a light-party option is a great idea.

As it stands, the game's core endgame caters to just a sliver of the overall playerbase, and that's just whack. It seriously makes no sense.

Most of the game's other problems are trivial by comparison.

Edited, Apr 26th 2016 2:42pm by Thayos
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#33 Apr 26 2016 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Most people aren't mad that savage raiding exists. They just wish there more mid-range options along side it.


I couldn't possibly "this" this enough.

All Thayos is trying to point out here is that the hardcore community is f'ing tiny. It's minuscule. That's fine, and you should make content for that, but you have to recognize it to have a productive conversation. I'm a hardcore player (not in FFXIV currently, though I have been). I've done cutting edge content. I'm doing cutting edge content right now in WoW (my raid just killed a new boss this week actually... we're 8/13 mythic now and making solid progress on the next one). The reason I like the idea of difficulty levels and LFR existing is because I recognize that even in WoW the hardcore raiding community is f'ing tiny. A game with millions of players and the hardcore raiders make up a couple hundred thousand? Maybe? We're a tiny percentage of the overall playerbase. Blizzard attacked that problem with multiple difficulty levels on the same content and in Legion with sliding-scale difficulty levels on 5-man content and varied group-size open world activities. Why did they do that? Because they recognized the need for casual and midcore endgame activities for their game to be healthy.

All we're saying here is that with SE still treating the XIV dev team like it's baby's first MMO that they take the limited resources they have and use them where they'll do the most good.

Edited, Apr 26th 2016 4:51pm by Callinon
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#34 Apr 26 2016 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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All Thayos is trying to point out here is that the hardcore community is f'ing tiny. It's minuscule. That's fine, and you should make content for that, but you have to recognize it to have a productive conversation. I'm a hardcore player (not in FFXIV currently, though I have been). I've done cutting edge content. I'm doing cutting edge content right now in WoW (my raid just killed a new boss this week actually... we're 8/13 mythic now and making solid progress on the next one). The reason I like the idea of difficulty levels and LFR existing is because I recognize that even in WoW the hardcore raiding community is f'ing tiny. A game with millions of players and the hardcore raiders make up a couple hundred thousand? Maybe? We're a tiny percentage of the overall playerbase. Blizzard attacked that problem with multiple difficulty levels on the same content and in Legion with sliding-scale difficulty levels on 5-man content and varied group-size open world activities. Why did they do that? Because they recognized the need for casual and midcore endgame activities for their game to be healthy.

All we're saying here is that with SE still treating the XIV dev team like it's baby's first MMO that they take the limited resources they have and use them where they'll do the most good.


YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

I might just repost your quoted text until everyone gets on the same page, lol.

Edited, Apr 26th 2016 2:59pm by Thayos
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#35 Apr 26 2016 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Hio, do you honestly believe that SE should continue investing heavily in this system of raiding because one outlying server has a 10 percent clear rate on outdated content?


I'll let Hio speak for himself, but I do take issue with what you've called 'abysmal completion rates'.

Relevant dataz
This chart displays only players who have actually made attempts at the listed bosses. As you can see, the completion rate is well below 1%. This was calculated nearly 4 months after the opening of the Highmaul raid.

The abysmal completion rate you refer to in XIV is actually quite healthy in comparison, especially considering that raiding is somewhat of a claim to fame for WoW. It's worth mentioning that hey have more robust tools to facilitate grouping as well(raid finder, cross server matching, ect.).

I'm not here to speak for anyone else, but I would say that even developers with lower overall success rates for raiding are still putting work into developing them. Granted these other companies probably have larger developer teams to work with, that doesn't make a case for removing difficult raiding as much as it does for adding people to your development team.

Karlina wrote:
The point is that they make up such a small percentage of the player base that it's silly to make a ton of content that caters ONLY to a small handful of people.

While it's true that they do make up a small part of the population, it's also true that making adjustments to tune content between difficult and normal takes up a small percentage of their time. Since item level determines power most developers set an arbitrary player power level and tune the encounter around that.

Also worth mentioning that the encounters are designed to be difficult first and later scaled back to 'normal'. If anything, creating normal content is what takes time.

I don't think anyone is against 'midcore' content. The only complaints I've heard about it would be relating to it rewarding players as if it were savage level content. If you want savage rewards I still don't mind if you don't want to raid for it, but whatever content you do should be tuned to be as difficult as the savage option.
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#36 Apr 26 2016 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
I would much rather that SE add to the development team.
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#37 Apr 26 2016 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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No... I don't agree.

What needs to happen is the stagnation of the power creep cycle, more than anything. Sideways content cannot exist in this current format, because at the heightened rate it must be updated with more of the same simply to update power creep.

Anything SE creates that becomes a part of this power cycle must also be updated at an equal pace and suffer equal stagnation and exhaustion issues. Put bluntly, SE is pushing the power creep too fast to be able to keep up with itself, and the result is watered down content streamlined to the point of only being appealing to the slim hardcore minority.

Because nobody's going to give two ***** about Savage gear when it becomes outdated by the time your midcore and casual audiences can complete it. That A4S low percentage rate, is going to stay low. There's no point doing it now, and even if SE adds incentives, that's still going to draw only a small portion of people back to it, likely the same groups that cleared it in the first place and a some that were attempting.

SE needs to slow down, allow itself to create broader content before pushing the ilvl up. Honestly there's not much of a point in having an ilvl increase more than once in an expansion cycle, if that. SE's doing it twice, three times if you include the initial ilvl climb at the release of Alexander, as it was delayed from Expansion launch.

That's idiotic. Sorry but they're listening to the wrong people, and looking at the wrong numbers there. They've instituted a haves and have-nots system that's dejected a large number of their base and is pushing their addiction mechanic to and past the breaking point. 'Progression' can be much, much slower than this and can still be successful. If they want to push their development team, or even expand it, there are better methods than what they are doing now.

Problem is, they're likely not going to change that model, which takes a hefty slice out of their intended audience and accepts massive bleed, in hopes of pulling people back repeatedly and instituting catch-up mechanics that will take a slice out of the hardcore base due to them feeling cheapened by the lack of lasting accomplishment. That Savage completion number is going to get smaller, even if they try to pad it by lowering the overall power-creep requirement.

The system is just designed to exhaust itself on both ends. I've said it before, progression needs to be broader than this if it is going to succeed long term. They had a chance with Diadem to start a process to do just that, and they blew it, twice-over. Once on how horrible it was implemented, second when they decided to nerf the content so that it could no longer be a parallel to 8 man hardcore raiding.

Now their next shot is to supplant raid progression all together by creating an alternative progression in and of itself through this Deep Dungeon idea. Problem is, unless it can compete outside of its own little world in terms of rewards, it will likely be neglected in favor of the daily grind for ilvl. Not to mention it needs to remain engaging on top of this.

We'll see. I'm not an optimist on this. People pulled the game in a bad direction since the first changes to gear back when they complained about ilvl90. With so much bad advice and distraction going on by the vocal minority I don't see them righting the course again before the game falls into niche status appealing to a slight few with most others just hanging on ala Hio.

You simply can't have an alternative to the 'hardcore raiding' for equivalent but alternative loot if you don't have the time to actually do the time-investment route. So while I'd be ok with the idea of effort on the level of Savage like what's being suggested, the time is just now there right now. This is evidence in just how little time Relics stand as BiS even though their effort level is equivalent if not larger than Savage when you factor playtime investment as a whole.

Edited, Apr 26th 2016 11:37pm by Hyrist
#38 Apr 26 2016 at 9:50 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Karlina wrote:
The point is that they make up such a small percentage of the player base that it's silly to make a ton of content that caters ONLY to a small handful of people.

While it's true that they do make up a small part of the population, it's also true that making adjustments to tune content between difficult and normal takes up a small percentage of their time. Since item level determines power most developers set an arbitrary player power level and tune the encounter around that.

Also worth mentioning that the encounters are designed to be difficult first and later scaled back to 'normal'. If anything, creating normal content is what takes time.

I don't think anyone is against 'midcore' content. The only complaints I've heard about it would be relating to it rewarding players as if it were savage level content. If you want savage rewards I still don't mind if you don't want to raid for it, but whatever content you do should be tuned to be as difficult as the savage option.


Pretty much this. So it's no point trying to essentially shrug off the "tiny playerbase" if you're also not willing to shrug off the PvP playerbase just as easily, cuz Yoshi certainly isn't, considering...well look at all the work went into the Feast despite having a SMALLER playerbase than the raiding base. The issue largely does fall on rewards, because Diadem proved:

If you make a loot pinata or give equal rewards, people WILL NOT go to content that requires any bit of work when they can get more, if not better, for nothing essentially. This is why content like Deep Dungeon based on prelim information alone doesn't look too good for it unless they really are changing the formula in 3.3. They simply need to either add a 3rd tier (like even yoshi wants to do) or go back to the Coil+Ex Primal format that worked so well.
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#39 Apr 27 2016 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
Oddly enough, I just got asked to fill out a survey from SE based on the free login period. Most questions are based on content and communication (with other players), and you have the ability to elaborate. That being said, if they listen to any suggestions is a whole different story. So obviously, they have an idea that people aren't super satisfied, otherwise, why bother having one of these (unless it's just keep appearances up).

It's quite clear from EVERY topic on this forum the game needs more $$$ for development, and more mid-core content. The communication with headsets would go a LONG way in alleviating some of these harder fights too.

I think it was Hio that pointed it out earlier, the game was at a good spot when you had a) dungeons b) coil and c) ex primals rewarding you with all the same ilvl, minus Turn 5 which gave the higher ilvl weapon. Those who only did the tome grind geared up, but not very fast. Those who did everything geared up super fast to help challenge Turn 4-5 in faster fashion. Those who completed turn 5 and got their weapon had something small to gloat about.

The difficulties were just about right (some might argue Coil wasn't hard enough) but overall, everyone could participate in it. You had faceroll easy dungeons, decent coordination Garuda, Titan and Ifrit and then good coordination T4 and T5.

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#40 Apr 27 2016 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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I never really understood the idea that I should be able to get the best gear without doing the hardest content. I mean sure I did some of the more difficult things in XI and WoW, but I've never been hardcore enough to be first on anything or get the best items and I have never minded that. I think it is cool to always have something to work for and see a few have those items is just fun for me. I love midcore content I would say that is what I do the most in any game, but I really don't want the items to be the best.
#41 Apr 27 2016 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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The communication with headsets would go a LONG way in alleviating some of these harder fights too.

While this risks going into another tangent, if MMO content requires headsets/voice chat, I'd say it's been designed poorly. This means mobs need to be better about choreographing their moves, effects we need to react to being more obvious, and whatever other underlying mechanics can't be AV-tier super secret.

Cross-region language barrier aside, it's also something that can't be effectively policed should someone choose to harass because someone makes a mistake or even something as simple as being a girl with a group of guys.

Either way, while I understand why some people like it or might even think it required for MMOing, it very much isn't.
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#42 Apr 27 2016 at 12:22 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
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The communication with headsets would go a LONG way in alleviating some of these harder fights too.

While this risks going into another tangent, if MMO content requires headsets/voice chat, I'd say it's been designed poorly.


Not really, it's just the evolution of gaming in general. I mean, I'm fairly sure you have a smartphone, could you honestly see yourself going back to old two tone styled mobile phones, especially for work purposes?

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Cross-region language barrier aside, it's also something that can't be effectively policed should someone choose to harass because someone makes a mistake or even something as simple as being a girl with a group of guys.


Well..considering me and my main healer are the only female in a group of ~42 guys, harassment is actually far less than you think, but then again, that's my Japanese FC lol, so I can't speak for NA/EU side of things in this game specifically. I understand what you mean but that's why there's generally a lack of "official" voice support in some games, MMOs specifically. You can do any content and game without voice chat, but it just makes coordination so much easier.

I'm against voice chat, but I see the insane benefits of it.

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#43 Apr 27 2016 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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I still remember doing Titan HM back in 2.0 and after doing it quite a few times and failed without voice I then got in on the guild run (I was a healer) and we had voice chat. Man was it so easy and I didn't even know the fight. I mean I had to heal just as much but staying alive myself was so easy with the communication. I see the benefits for sure, but I kind of agree that I think the encounters themselves can be made better to begin with so that whilst it will help it won't be the insane benefit it was in a situation like that simply because of the 1-shot mechanic dance everywhere.

Edited, Apr 27th 2016 2:29pm by Belcrono
#44 Apr 27 2016 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
Just about every pug I've joined required TS/Vent/Skype, whatever, and the amount of harassment/raging was on par with party chat, probably even less. I personally think it'd be harder to rage on someone since you hear a voice. People were actually quite pleasant and easy going, and it was 10x easier making up a strategy with voice chat. It just makes calling out reminders, making plans, all of that effortless. Typing something mid battle, especially in something that's quickly paced, just doesn't work. No game truly requires voice chat, but it's there, why not use it?

It simply expedites everything, you already waste insane amounts of time standing around plotting things with chat, just fast track it. Even the well developed fights required some kind of coordination. If you're one of those people who just doesn't enjoy speaking, you can just listen.

Beyond ruining the immersion for some, I really don't see the downfall. Harassment can happen in any form, and with chat it's likely worse because people don't seem to think they're talking to an actual human being.
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#45 Apr 27 2016 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm against voice chat, but I see the insane benefits of it.


Just wanted to point out that we totally agree on this statement.

I never do voice chats with people who aren't in my FC, and even with FC groups, I only do voice chat if I have to. I just don't really find it fun. If anything, hearing all these people talking detracts from my gaming experience.

That's one of the things I really miss about FFXI... having a battle system that was so dang slow (with its own set of pros and cons) that I could pretty much type novels to my linkshell mates while playing. I went through the entire game (including an unorthodox COP static) and almost never used voice chat. And I think back to all of these hilarious linkshell conversations that wouldn't have been nearly as funny if we were just sitting there talking.

Also, I'm not a shy person at all, but I'm keenly aware that many gamers aren't exactly social butterflies, and the expectation to do voice chat is probably yet another barrier for some people to try out difficult content.

It is what it is, though. Gaming is evolving, and voice chat is part of that evolution, especially as combat systems rely more on mashing buttons and dodging.

Edited, Apr 27th 2016 11:33am by Thayos
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#46 Apr 27 2016 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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When it comes to the voice subject, not using it simply puts more pressure on the leader to instruct their minions on what to do in response to what. If everyone's flying blind, this is obviously more difficult to do, but this is also where I defer back to my last post and how mobs should be respectively designed. If people are dying for no discernible reason, something's up.

There's also some relation to UI clutter and the over-reliance on add-ons other MMOs face here, where people who don't have it are at an obvious disadvantage. And in some cases it is a direct result of hardware or lack thereof. Someone running at a smaller screen resolution won't have enough room for the same things (or at least keeping them legible).

I've got my own reasons for avoiding voice chat, among them never really feeling comfortable wearing a headset alongside my glasses and the fact I need to keep my ears free to hear other activities in the house like my dogs misbehaving, younger relatives needing stuff, and more elderly family members requiring help. I'm not really keen on simply letting chat just run on my speakers, either, either because I can't 100% regulate the volume or what's said. Last thing I want is my 5 year old niece watching me play just for someone to spout of a racial epithet and repeat it to someone else.

Things may be trending that way, sure, but it's not really different than citing social media and it's myriad incarnations. Plenty of people get by without them just fine.

Edited, Apr 27th 2016 2:43pm by Seriha
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#47 Apr 27 2016 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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On the topic of addons I was watching a streamer talking about Vanilla WoW and how fun it was and he got a comment in chat about how easy and lame the bosses were. His response was that it really wasn't that easy (he was the guild leader of Nihilum basically the best guild in WoW for Vanilla to like WotLK) because as much as the encounters have evolved so have the addons. Nowadays doing a boss means follow the instructions that the addons give you, with all countdowns etc. He preferred the old ways and I have to agree. I want fun engaging encounters but not encounters that pratically assumes you are using addons that will tell you when to step right, left or jump.

What I mean is I don't think it is only a matter of some people not being at a disadvantage for not using addons/voicechat, but a lot of people actually think it is more fun to not have to use those things as well.

Edited, Apr 27th 2016 2:46pm by Belcrono
#48 Apr 27 2016 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
On the topic of addons I was watching a streamer talking about Vanilla WoW and how fun it was and he got a comment in chat about how easy and lame the bosses were. His response was that it really wasn't that easy (he was the guild leader of Nihilum basically the best guild in WoW for Vanilla to like WotLK) because as much as the encounters have evolved so have the addons. Nowadays doing a boss means follow the instructions that the addons give you, with all countdowns etc. He preferred the old ways and I have to agree. I want fun engaging encounters but not encounters that pratically assumes you are using addons that will tell you when to step right, left or jump.


This kind of reminds me of a TED talk that dispels the notion that today's athletes are superior to the athletes of yesteryear. In reality, much of the improvements in athletic performances we've seen over the past several decades is largely connected with advancements in sports technologies (such as shoes, track surfaces, etc.) and people with more specialized body types playing more specific sports (like taller people being more likely to play basketball).
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#49 Apr 27 2016 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
On the topic of addons I was watching a streamer talking about Vanilla WoW and how fun it was and he got a comment in chat about how easy and lame the bosses were. His response was that it really wasn't that easy (he was the guild leader of Nihilum basically the best guild in WoW for Vanilla to like WotLK) because as much as the encounters have evolved so have the addons. Nowadays doing a boss means follow the instructions that the addons give you, with all countdowns etc. He preferred the old ways and I have to agree. I want fun engaging encounters but not encounters that pratically assumes you are using addons that will tell you when to step right, left or jump.


This kind of reminds me of a TED talk that dispels the notion that today's athletes are superior to the athletes of yesteryear. In reality, much of the improvements in athletic performances we've seen over the past several decades is largely connected with advancements in sports technologies (such as shoes, track surfaces, etc.) and people with more specialized body types playing more specific sports (like taller people being more likely to play basketball).


Eh, the biggest that's changed in the world of sports is the training regimen. I'll take hockey for example (since I'm Canadian eh?). To get to the NHL now, you're looking at about 200,00-300,000$ invested by your parents. Most kids start with a professional trainer near the age of 8-10, do training in the off season and keep this up year round. You move on to private schools where all they focus on is hockey, nutritional plans handed out to you, etc. Sure, technology has changed with composite sticks, lighter skates, but it doesn't make that big of a difference. The difference is you're built like a beast by the age of 16, where as 50 years ago, you'd drink beer before and after every game and do nothing in between. The skill levels though, are probably all the same, just not the same training.

But yes, I agree, if Wayne Gretzky had the same training as Connor Mcdavid, they'd probably be on par with each other.

Edited, Apr 27th 2016 3:22pm by Montsegurnephcreep
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#50 Apr 27 2016 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
That's one of the things I really miss about FFXI... having a battle system that was so dang slow (with its own set of pros and cons) that I could pretty much type novels to my linkshell mates while playing.

A little off topic here, but IMO this is one of the big reasons modern MMOs tend to be more anti-social.

No one talks in dungeons? Of course not. When you're hitting buttons literally every second of a dungeon, when are you going to have time to type? I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had a casual conversation with someone in a dungeon in FFXIV.
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#51 Apr 27 2016 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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XI being comfortably playable as keyboard only is also a thing. WASD+Mouse just makes me hate having to type frequently.
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