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#1 Apr 23 2016 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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http://www.dualshockers.com/2016/04/23/deep-dungeons-announced-for-final-fantasy-xiv-new-app-and-more-info-on-new-content-revealed/

What do you think about the announcements and answers?

I am liking the Palace of the dead concept. Getting a vibe of Dark Souls here! Do they mean egi glamours or something else when talking about changing egi appearance? What JOBSSSSS do you think are hitting next expansion?

Edited, Apr 23rd 2016 3:22pm by sandpark
#2 Apr 23 2016 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Deep Dungeons sound interesting... though the idea of nullifying magic on select floors is discouraging for mage participation unless there's an alternate means of clearing the floor for them (be stealthy? maybe?)

As for jobs... hmm... let's go with Samurai (melee DPS), Oracle (Healer), Geomancer (Ranged DPS), and no new tank. Maybe no healer either, not sure about that one.
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#3 Apr 23 2016 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Samurai and a gunblade-wielding Red Mage
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#4 Apr 23 2016 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Deep Dungeons sound interesting... though the idea of nullifying magic on select floors is discouraging for mage participation unless there's an alternate means of clearing the floor for them (be stealthy? maybe?)

As for jobs... hmm... let's go with Samurai (melee DPS), Oracle (Healer), Geomancer (Ranged DPS), and no new tank. Maybe no healer either, not sure about that one.

It was stated the save points is how you get more powerful or something like that. Maybe the stones grant some kind of boon or something of that nature?

I am really wanting Samurai bad. Would like to see a Cid Orlandu type class but doubt we would get two sword based classes..

Edited, Apr 23rd 2016 4:00pm by sandpark
#5 Apr 23 2016 at 3:22 PM Rating: Default
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Breaking it down:
Quote:
The code for the chocobo buddy is very complex and it’s taking a lot of time to allow players to summon chocobos in dungeons and while in the duty finder. Yet, the team is trying.


It's time to rewrite this code then considering the AI is not only the furthest thing from complex, but it's already just using basic functions. I don't think he meant to say complex and more "messy and requires rebalancing the content to take them into consideration"..because the chocobo simply acts as another party member since they removed the gambit system for them and used it for bosses instead.

Quote:
Yoshida-san encouraged the animation team to make a “winky face” emote.


Cute, but the animation team could be working on something far more important to the game. It takes literally only 1 person to do this. And no, you don't need to see their engine to know this, especially when they've confirmed they use z-brush and maya for a lot of this game's models and animations.

Quote:
The technical means to give legacy items special buffs are available, but the team doesn’t want to make items that are considered necessary and would lock out from content people that don’t have them.


People choose not to do content rather than being barred from content aside missing the train, this wouldn't prevent that in any shape or form. So all this confirms is, as I've always said, they can do a lot that they simply CHOOSE not to do until their hand is forced (e.g Diadem.) They seem to like throwing tests at us (Diadem, Lord of Verminion, Void Ark etc) so they should test this to see how the reception goes before completely shrugging it off.

Quote:
Pets for summoners are a complex system, so creating new Egis is difficult, but the team is working on a system to allow players to change the appearence of the existing ones. They would like to add one per patch down the line, starting probably with Carbuncle.


I hate cop outs like this - Currently, the game uses a carbuncle to be replaced by the egi, there's 6 or 7 carbuncles in the dats that are used as holders for egis, including Ramuh and Shiva egi. So the system may be "complex", but they have everything in place since Beta 2. They really need to hire more people...

Quote:
In patch 3.35 a new concept called “Deep Dungeons” will be introduced. The first will be The Palace of the Dead.


Aside being throw away content like other stuff of similar nature (solo/4man content really has yet to be rewarding with other options for gearing available) it could be something interesting to do once or twice.

Quote:
New floors will be added with future update, creating an “endless” dungeon.
You can get stronger by touching special stones, but some are traps, and might make you weaker. There are also special floors in which you can’t use magic.
The dungeon changes every time you visit it.


So it's going to be a lame version of Nyzul (considering current content cycle.) I wish they'd push this back to 4.x so at least it can benefit from new mechanics and HOPEFULLY a new formula, so that way in this "endless dungeon" they can copy what Ambuscade does in XI. It's the perfect chance to do something NEW and heck even cycle in/out rewards every major update to keep a need to start from the beginning fresh. So many chances to do something good.

New jobs doesn't excite me unless the game is getting an overhaul in the battle system and homogenization of it, otherwise my only hope is if they choose to implement any jobs XI has, it works even half as well as they do, because I'd honestly be pissed off if Dancer XIV ended up being just a XIV Rogue with a cure spell, since even in XI with it being a "healing dagger user", it still stood out on it's own because it could heal, tank and damage in a different format than what we were used to (PLD, NIN.)

Maybe in the letter we'll get more detailed info, otherwise it kind of sounds like the usual "good concepts about to be done poorly because of fear of exclusion."

I'm just hoping Doom Train will act as a story barrier like Steps of Faith did and has some difficulty to it, so there can be a REASON for players to get better so then they can raise the overall standard of content design and do less "face roll" to "your face gets rolled off your head" content.

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#6 Apr 23 2016 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Excited about Deep Dungeons! Finally something I can do regularly with three other friends.... much more doable than finding seven others with matching schedules. I just hope the content isn't super mindless, aka Diadem.

Also excited for the app. My FC will love that.
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#7 Apr 24 2016 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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Here's hoping that Dungeons Deep will be the new Nyzul Isle. An element is random like that is something this game sorely needs.
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#8 Apr 24 2016 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Here's hoping that Dungeons Deep will be the new Nyzul Isle. An element is random like that is something this game sorely needs.


It does sound like it, which is why it disappoints me that it'll be locked to solo/4-man since they have a very strict design when it comes to that vs 8 man/24 man. If they loosen up on the 'balance" of 4man content it could be something great, otherwise it sounds like it might be popular for a little while then dramatically die off like Diadem did since side content doesn't seem to have much of a life span in this game.
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#9 Apr 24 2016 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Too early to say whether this will be mid core progression content or side content like Vermillion.

As for battle design, I'm willing to give them a chance. If you can jump rope with eight people, why not four? Just means fewer people to ***** it up.

Edited, Apr 24th 2016 8:21am by Thayos
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#10 Apr 24 2016 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:

Aside being throw away content like other stuff of similar nature (solo/4man content really has yet to be rewarding with other options for gearing available) it could be something interesting to do once or twice.

So it's going to be a lame version of Nyzul (considering current content cycle.) I wish they'd push this back to 4.x so at least it can benefit from new mechanics and HOPEFULLY a new formula, so that way in this "endless dungeon" they can copy what Ambuscade does in XI. It's the perfect chance to do something NEW and heck even cycle in/out rewards every major update to keep a need to start from the beginning fresh. So many chances to do something good.

Maybe in the letter we'll get more detailed info, otherwise it kind of sounds like the usual "good concepts about to be done poorly because of fear of exclusion."

I haven't done Ambuscade, but from I read:
*Monsters don't drop any items, instead players are awarded hallmarks upon completion(something like tomes?)
*There is a monthly limit to the number of times you may purchase materials with hallmarks(why a limit? To function like a lock-out?)
*The set rewarded varies monthly and armor does not consume hallmarks, only capes(What?Does this mean you can only get armor for a certain job depending on month you play?If so I don't like that...).
*You have to farm orcs or dragons to get key item for entry(I don't know if that would be welcomed in FFXIV,I wouldn't mind it.)
*The dungeon is timed at 30 minutes.
*The key item is not lost until you win.
*There is 5 difficulties for a normal mode and 5 difficulties for harder mode.With harder rewarding more hallmark(That seems pretty cool.)
*Your hallmarks reset to 0 each month.(I don't like that, if XIV did that with tomes I would be a pissed off *******.)
*Random monsters spawn randomly.(I like this alot.)

So the major worries about Deep Dungeon I have been reading is inventory worries and people want it to be doable with lighter party requirements. I wanna post some thoughts later on that.

#11 Apr 24 2016 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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The way Ambuscade works is:
You choose the difficulty level and the monsters themselves don't drop it, but you gain a lot of points (depending on difficulty selection) to use to buy the rewards (similar to Legion/Nyzul/Neo-Nyzul etc) and they've actually changed it (starting with next update) that they'll retain certain important rewards but shift in/out other rewards along with monsters. For example next month's cycle is Odin and Alexander, so you got the general idea from reading it, but execution it's a lot more simple/straight forward. Considering XIV is more of a cumulative game, instead of resetting all they'd have to do is slap on yet another "tome" grind, because it being designed for solo/4man puts it in a severe niche in terms of design with current XIV since they can't offer too strong of a reward or it will overshadow what they introduce in 3.3 (Void Ark II and more crafted gear.)

So it actually sounds bad that it resets at the end of the month but it's not that bad once you take into consideration that even on easier difficulties you basically benefit greatly for doing it. Since the main appeal is that it will always change and offer new things (and certain old things.) So if this content isn't meant for progression (and from the sound of it so far it isn't unless the formula changes) it would be good if it rewards something else relevant so it doesn't just fade into nothingness, because they can add new floors every update, but it doesn't mean much if it offers only stuff like minions or furniture (kind of like the PvP rewards.)
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#12 Apr 25 2016 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe I completely misunderstood what some people were saying (didn't actually watch the show or anyting), but some were talking about the rewards maybe being only for the event itself? Again maybe I just didn't get what they were saying.

Something like this might be worth a month of sub just to try, depending on how they implement it of course. I like the idea for sure.

As for jobs I have to agree with Theonehio, as much as I'd love to see jobs like BLU, RDM etc the fact is that unless they ease up on the homogenization of jobs and such in the game it won't matter what or how many jobs they add.
#13 Apr 25 2016 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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The progression at least power and stat wise is locked to the content itself. The best thing I can compare it to is sort of like Guild Wars 2 are Maguuma masteries or Diablo 3 set dungeons, except the dungeons are random. I am hoping it functions closer to set dungeons and it might since they spoke of a leaderboard, hopefully it does stat tracking for rewarding skillful play.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/

http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Set_Dungeon



#14 Apr 25 2016 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

It's time to rewrite this code then considering the AI is not only the furthest thing from complex, but it's already just using basic functions. I don't think he meant to say complex and more "messy and requires rebalancing the content to take them into consideration"..because the chocobo simply acts as another party member since they removed the gambit system for them and used it for bosses instead.


AFAIK, no one has reverse engineered the code. As much as I hate certain implementations of the game, saying things like that (like back in the XI days) is baseless assumption.

Quote:

Cute, but the animation team could be working on something far more important to the game. It takes literally only 1 person to do this. And no, you don't need to see their engine to know this, especially when they've confirmed they use z-brush and maya for a lot of this game's models and animations.


Again, despite me not wanting more emotes at the moment, without knowledge of their workflow (given how SE operates, it's unlikely to be streamlined) this is a statement that cannot be proved (and no, looking at the dats isn't enough).

Quote:

I hate cop outs like this - Currently, the game uses a carbuncle to be replaced by the egi, there's 6 or 7 carbuncles in the dats that are used as holders for egis, including Ramuh and Shiva egi. So the system may be "complex", but they have everything in place since Beta 2. They really need to hire more people...


Don't mix dats and the actual (client and server) code. The game has already a lot of legacy code. Of course that's not an excuse for the usual excuse "it's difficult", but certain statements have to be done with facts not with dat information, trying to extrapolate how things work server-side.

Quote:

I'm just hoping Doom Train will act as a story barrier like Steps of Faith did and has some difficulty to it, so there can be a REASON for players to get better so then they can raise the overall standard of content design and do less "face roll" to "your face gets rolled off your head" content.


I just hope he stops putting references to other FF. The story is already a mess as it is. Close some of the storylines (won't happen, but oh well) and maybe it'll work.

As for Steps of Faith... it was a chore to do. Much like of the other battles, it relies too much on the gimmick and has very, very little room for improvisation. Not to mention the story leading to that battle was awful.


Edited, Apr 25th 2016 2:15pm by xizro
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#15 Apr 25 2016 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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xizro wrote:
Quote:

It's time to rewrite this code then considering the AI is not only the furthest thing from complex, but it's already just using basic functions. I don't think he meant to say complex and more "messy and requires rebalancing the content to take them into consideration"..because the chocobo simply acts as another party member since they removed the gambit system for them and used it for bosses instead.


AFAIK, no one has reverse engineered the code. As much as I hate certain implementations of the game, saying things like that (like back in the XI days) is baseless assumption


They stated numerous time the planned "Gambit System" was used for bosses in the game instead. Anyone with basic network coding knowledge can tell you the code is messy and isn't as efficient as it could be and that's if you remember back to the beta days how they said the gambit system would work like FFXII's, which means with the removal of it and placement on bosses is why the birds are fairly..stupid, and being "complex" simply is a nicer way to say messy lol (no one wants to admit when something is poorly done, especially when you're trying to draw in players.) It just depends on how deeply you buy into YoshiP's words, because even people within SE scratch their heads at some comments he makes, including the XI team during their last interview and "freshly Picked" when they got a question about implementing similar systems (for example armoury system) and they said "it's much easier to just expand a particular inventory using certain methods, so we'll just introduce new mog wardrobes as needed."

The way the duty finder system works in XIV is it creates a copy of your account data, chocobo's have no "account data", which means the trials are not designed in any shape for form to take into consideration an AI partner. This is also why they stated they'll have to "create new content" for that theorized "Grand Company Army" system where you command a group of NPCs, because instead of going back and rebalancing all of the game's content, it's easier to just create new content taking it into consideration. So the "messy" part is more because of the way they handle instanced content, which is terrible. Nothing should be so complex that it prevents basic systems from functioning simply because you have a braid dead turkey summoned or because you're messing with your retainer.

Quote:
Again, despite me not wanting more emotes at the moment, without knowledge of their workflow (given how SE operates, it's unlikely to be streamlined) this is a statement that cannot be proved (and no, looking at the dats isn't enough).


They talk about it all the time and how they prioritize things which is when YoshiP has said once before lore is a low priority so they don't get "lore walls" to prevent content. Example, the UI team did Lords of Verminion - Which means during the development of that and the much stated "limited resources", they could have easily spent more time fine tuning aspects rather than wasting said limited resources on content like that. Not to mention confirming the use of Maya alone means they don't need the whole team to break up parts when 1 person could do it.

Quote:
Don't mix dats and the actual (client and server) code.


It's already working for Garuda, Titan and Ifrit egi (Emerald, Sapphire and Ruby Carbuncle are the basis for this.) The code is there. That is my point. Ramuh already employs "Ramuh-Egis" which means the coding for their basic AI functions are already in game. This is also what I mean by how deeply someone buys into YoshiP's excuses without actually thinking about it or knowing otherwise. So knowing that, even doing a "glamour" system could be a bit troublesome because the current system in place allows for extremely easy egi placement (btw, the carbuncles in dats all have programming tied to them, because they're all tied to egi data or an NPC, for example Uri's Ruby Carbuncle (before they renamed it.)) He's admitted before they just lack man-power/resources, so adding more egi's isn't really "complex", they just lack the people. Which goes back to "instead of doing x, allocate them into important parts of the game." Whether you like minions or not, the people working on minions (including design, animations, interaction and coding now for LoV) could be put on the monster, animation or even programming team to get stuff fixed that's "too complex" and hold back on minion additions for even just one patch cycle.

Quote:
As for Steps of Faith... it was a chore to do. Much like of the other battles, it relies too much on the gimmick and has very, very little room for improvisation. Not to mention the story leading to that battle was awful.


I didn't mind steps of faith simply because compared to everything else thrown at us in 2.x aside Second Coil and Final Coil..it actually took coordination and as proven by the immediate dropouts and cries for nerfs, the playerbase simply can't handle something with a "tiny bit of difficulty" or it's designed for the BIG BAD HARDCORE PLAYERS BOO HOO HOO.

Seriously though, storyline gates I enjoy, I just hope it's well designed first and foremost because if they're going to keep doing these references, while DoomTrain/Phantom Train wasn't necessarily hard, he does have a legacy for not taking it laying down as well as being a damn awesome summon.

So his inclusion to XIV is either going to be "Hi I'm a talking train, let's go to the Garlean capital." or "Hi this is a **** easy trial because players will complain about difficulty if I'm actually a tough fight..so um...I guess just beat me up in 3 minutes and enjoy 4.0?"

Since Void Ark was supposedly something "new and unique to FFXIV"...I have my doubts. This is why even when they mention new content concepts, I hope first and foremost it's well designed and actually trying to step away from current formula, despite outcries of wanting otherwise.
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#16 Apr 25 2016 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:


They stated numerous time the planned "Gambit System" was used for bosses in the game instead. Anyone with basic network coding knowledge can tell you the code is messy and isn't as efficient as it could be and that's if you remember back to the beta days how they said the gambit system would work like FFXII's, which means with the removal of it and placement on bosses is why the birds are fairly..stupid, and being "complex" simply is a nicer way to say messy lol (no one wants to admit when something is poorly done, especially when you're trying to draw in players.) It just depends on how deeply you buy into YoshiP's words, because even people within SE scratch their heads at some comments he makes, including the XI team during their last interview and "freshly Picked" when they got a question about implementing similar systems (for example armoury system) and they said "it's much easier to just expand a particular inventory using certain methods, so we'll just introduce new mog wardrobes as needed."


That's a lot of assumptions. Do you know how the netcode works? No, most info comes from SE, including the "backup save every 15 s" or the "position check ever 0.3 s". And what they said is irrelevant (considering how much Yoshida is a PR person), it's the actual implementation that matters. That was the same in XI, which did had some strong shortcomings, but the community thought it knew all with some (questionable) third-party app. Again, I dislike a lot of the mechanics in XIV, but I'm not arrogant enough to know how the game is coded, especially since it hasn't been reverse engineered (yet).

Quote:
The way the duty finder system works in XIV is it creates a copy of your account data, chocobo's have no "account data", which means the trials are not designed in any shape for form to take into consideration an AI partner. This is also why they stated they'll have to "create new content" for that theorized "Grand Company Army" system where you command a group of NPCs, because instead of going back and rebalancing all of the game's content, it's easier to just create new content taking it into consideration. So the "messy" part is more because of the way they handle instanced content, which is terrible. Nothing should be so complex that it prevents basic systems from functioning simply because you have a braid dead turkey summoned or because you're messing with your retainer.


DF's shortcomings have nothing to do to try to guess how the code works. The design can be called into question, the code...not so much. Especially a complex system like a MMO which has much more legacy code than a normal program.

Quote:
They talk about it all the time and how they prioritize things which is when YoshiP has said once before lore is a low priority so they don't get "lore walls" to prevent content. Example, the UI team did Lords of Verminion - Which means during the development of that and the much stated "limited resources", they could have easily spent more time fine tuning aspects rather than wasting said limited resources on content like that. Not to mention confirming the use of Maya alone means they don't need the whole team to break up parts when 1 person could do it.


Talking and doing are two different things. Also, no one has any idea of their workflow. Please, try to apply Occam's Razor instead of building a lot of unprovable assumptions.

Quote:

It's already working for Garuda, Titan and Ifrit egi (Emerald, Sapphire and Ruby Carbuncle are the basis for this.) The code is there. That is my point. Ramuh already employs "Ramuh-Egis" which means the coding for their basic AI functions are already in game.


This doesn't "mean" anything. It means for simplicity they used something as base for the others. As for the actual coding...no one knows. And especially in these kinds of games, a simple overlook (see the glamour for Egis) can bring a lot of issues later.

Quote:
He's admitted before they just lack man-power/resources, so adding more egi's isn't really "complex", they just lack the people.


Because resources are finite. That's all. People took that Famitsu/Dengeki comment way too seriously. Right now no one save themselves know the team size. Unlike XI, where at the end of ToAU it was clear they were cutting corners (because they said so, when the Coliseum was scrapped), it's unclear what the team size is. Feel free to criticize the game, but using grounded arguments. This whole "programming" stuff has been around since XI's days and it never worked as an argument.

Quote:

I didn't mind steps of faith simply because compared to everything else thrown at us in 2.x aside Second Coil and Final Coil..


Two systems I completely dislike. No room for improvisation (aside cheesing Coil Turn 2). Instadeath mechanics. Memorization. The worst of the game, to put it bluntly. And to think people repeated it ad nauseam....ugh.


Quote:
it actually took coordination and as proven by the immediate dropouts and cries for nerfs, the playerbase simply can't handle something with a "tiny bit of difficulty" or it's designed for the BIG BAD HARDCORE PLAYERS BOO HOO HOO.


The dislike of the playerbase is your personal opinion. I hated it. It wasn't fun at all. Either do the way the game expects you to do or die. No room for different strategies. It's a limit of design, not the playerbase.

Quote:
Seriously though, storyline gates I enjoy, I just hope it's well designed first and foremost because if they're going to keep doing these references, while DoomTrain/Phantom Train wasn't necessarily hard, he does have a legacy for not taking it laying down as well as being a **** awesome summon.


Personally, storyline gates done good are like CoP (save The Three Paths). And I'd like the game to carve its own path instead of using all these references.

Quote:

Since Void Ark was supposedly something "new and unique to FFXIV"...I have my doubts. This is why even when they mention new content concepts, I hope first and foremost it's well designed and actually trying to step away from current formula, despite outcries of wanting otherwise.


That's being delusional. The content is pretty much done in a certain way since 2.0 hit. Very linear, memorization, and only certain strategies allowed. Unless the profits (not subs) drop, there will be no change to that formula.
Deep Dungeon looks like Nyzul, another thing I really hated from XI (didn't try Neo Nyzul since I had 0 interest in it).


Edited, Apr 25th 2016 6:19pm by xizro
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#17 Apr 25 2016 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Deep Dungeon looks like Nyzul, another thing I really hated from XI (didn't try Neo Nyzul since I had 0 interest in it).


I liked Nyzul when I was able to do it, but because the community for this event was more based in statics than event-linkshells (like Dynamis, Sky or Einherjar), I was more or less shut out of it. It has always been difficult to coordinate schedules and find people who are as willing as I am to flat-out make time.

On that note, though, I'm excited about Deep Dungeons though for two big reasons:

1) The ability to solo. I'll be able to enjoy this content even if I can't find people for a static.

2) I'll only need to find three other people for a static! That should be much more doable than finding seven other people.

I recently tried building a static... I found six other members but just couldn't find a seventh whose schedule met my narrow time requirements... and after a few weeks of nothing really happening because we couldn't find that elusive eighth person, the group started falling apart, and now we're down to like four members. Meanwhile, all that time spent in game just trying to wrangle people was more or less wasted. It's hard when you're a busy adult living on the west coast, and you can only make time to play consistently for a couple of hours on one night/week. So, yeah... I'm stoked about content that isn't built on such a rigid participation requirement.
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#18 Apr 25 2016 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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It looks like it'll have no story attached, hence a big no for me. I'm not interested in loot at all. "Challenge" for the sake of it doesn't interest me. Especially since it'll be likely to be repeated to get stuff in general.
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#19 Apr 25 2016 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
I liked Nyzul when I was able to do it, but because the community for this event was more based in statics than event-linkshells (like Dynamis, Sky or Einherjar), I was more or less shut out of it. It has always been difficult to coordinate schedules and find people who are as willing as I am to flat-out make time.

Yeah. As much as I loved Nyzul Isle, I'll admit that the only reason I was able to do it at all is because I lucked into a static that ran at a really convenient time for me.


xizro wrote:
Deep Dungeon looks like Nyzul, another thing I really hated from XI (didn't try Neo Nyzul since I had 0 interest in it).

Mind if I ask why you hated Nyzul so much? Generally speaking people either liked it or had no strong opinions one way or the other. I haven't come across many people who actively disliked it, and I'm curious.
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#20 Apr 25 2016 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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Another "do the thing until you get the item", but I was forced to do it to reduce the chore for the new weaponskills. I managed to get to 100, didn't get actually anything every time I tried, so once I got the WS, I refused to do more.
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#21 Apr 25 2016 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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xizro wrote:
Another "do the thing until you get the item"

Doesn't that describe pretty much every activity in every game ever?

I do agree that the drop rates were way too low though. Only a 1 in 3ish chance that the boss will even drop anything? That's just insane.
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75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat

Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
#22 Apr 25 2016 at 4:40 PM Rating: Default
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Drop rates weren't that bad honestly, it just had too big of a pool for what could drop on boss floors (3 different sets off one boss with rare double drops.) Some runs you went with nothing but it tend to be more "ugh wrong item." Just like when people say Kirin never dropped stuff because he didn't drop the w.legs but dropped damn near everything else. For example floor 20 had approximately 38% chance to drop an item, not great but definitely not that low, but that means it had a 61%+ chance to not drop anything. So if you look at it individually, it's bad, but the drop rate is about anything in general dropping.

Still though, largest problem with this is if they're going to change the solo/4 man formula, because no matter how much someone may like this game...events die out for a reason and I promise it's not because of "hardcore players" like some around here like to hang onto. If the rewards are underpowered, it'll turn people off (like it or not this IS a progression game), just like you don't have people farming AntiTower/Lost City Hard for the ilvl195 gear because Esoterics, Voidark and Midas Normal is available. Not to mention unless the items are "phantom items" as the JP call it, YoshiP is heavily allergic to using the Key Item tab, so it's just going to further weigh on our limited inventories if the system is actually in depth, but I doubt it. It would be nice if they break the mold with this, but it depends on what they detail in 3 days.
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#23 Apr 25 2016 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Karlina wrote:
Thayos wrote:
I liked Nyzul when I was able to do it, but because the community for this event was more based in statics than event-linkshells (like Dynamis, Sky or Einherjar), I was more or less shut out of it. It has always been difficult to coordinate schedules and find people who are as willing as I am to flat-out make time.

Yeah. As much as I loved Nyzul Isle, I'll admit that the only reason I was able to do it at all is because I lucked into a static that ran at a really convenient time for me.


xizro wrote:
Deep Dungeon looks like Nyzul, another thing I really hated from XI (didn't try Neo Nyzul since I had 0 interest in it).

Mind if I ask why you hated Nyzul so much? Generally speaking people either liked it or had no strong opinions one way or the other. I haven't come across many people who actively disliked it, and I'm curious.

I just shouted in Whitegate for my Nyzul and never had trouble getting a decent group for it. I guess I was on a skill player server or just extremely lucky. Now Einherjar took statics, as for Sky,Sea,Dynamis, I was in a very active linkshell that always had someone into something in those areas and Zeni.

I like the concept of Nyzul but disliked the gimmicky lamp thing. I am a tad worried the gimmick is going to be annoying to some players as Callinon stated his worry for being muted on mage.
#24 Apr 25 2016 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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events die out for a reason and I promise it's not because of "hardcore players" like some around here like to hang onto.


I don't know which dispensary you're posting from, but I can't recall a single person accusing hardcore players of making in-game events die off.

The prevailing criticism is there's only a small percentage of hardcore players who do savage mode content, so resources spent on that content (rather than things more people would enjoy) are kind of wasted. The rest of the game's current content (the latest dungeons, 24-man raid, etc.) are populated just fine by pretty much everyone.

Edited, Apr 25th 2016 4:22pm by Thayos
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#25 Apr 25 2016 at 6:15 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
events die out for a reason and I promise it's not because of "hardcore players" like some around here like to hang onto.


I don't know which dispensary you're posting from, but I can't recall a single person accusing hardcore players of making in-game events die off.

The prevailing criticism is there's only a small percentage of hardcore players who do savage mode content, so resources spent on that content (rather than things more people would enjoy) are kind of wasted. The rest of the game's current content (the latest dungeons, 24-man raid, etc.) are populated just fine by pretty much everyone.

Edited, Apr 25th 2016 4:22pm by Thayos


I just see "hardcore players this" "hardcore players that" "this game isn't designed for you" so I preemptively say events aren't dying because of hardcore players, since they seem to get the brunt of the accusations and are the "players that don't matter."

The ACTUAL problem is, as I stated, and you can deny this all you want, the INCLUSION of story mode is what created "Savage" content to begin with. Instead of people crying for "easier version just for the story", they should have instead, asked SE to follow even Guild Wars 2 setup of content, since they borrowed "Dynamic Events" from them, why not the content setup? You seem to love SE, YoshiP and everything about this game, you'd think after 3 years you'd realize how they work when it comes to this game's content. Savage was OPTIONAL. Keyword: OPTIONAL, when there was only Ex Primals, Crystal Tower(s) and Binding Coil (1/2/3), people asked for Savage to see what the original, UNBALANCED version of second coil was like, no one, and I mean, NO ONE, asked for it as our main source of progression. However, people begged SE "WE WANT STORY MODE!", and I realize not everyone has ever looked into game design beyond just a player, but, even YoshiP has told us the "Savage Version" ala 3.x is the Original version of the fight and story mode is the fights with mechanics stripped out of it.

Why is that necessary? When all they had to do was just create another set of Binding Coil type difficulty if they weren't going to have "3 difficulties" like they said they couldn't due to lack of resources. You're trying to pin the blame of Savage content when in reality, they spend far more time and resources on content people rarely use or only use because it's the only source for something. When you're capped on Lore tomes, do you run Antitower or Lost City Hard every day, numerous times? Or are you more likely to run it for your daily and to cap off Lore as it's the MAIN source of high lore return?

I promise you most people don't run those dungeons willingly, just like I can promise, despite not knowing you, that you yourself don't run dungeons that serve no purpose to you at the time until relic came around or if you were leveling a job, but that comes to the next point: Trying to consider leveling as "content", when in reality, the whole purpose of the roulette system was because dungeon queues were abysmal. Deny it if you want, but that's exactly why they were implemented, it wasn't because of good will because SE was and still is perfectly fine with us "doing nothing" as long as they get their money.

If they kept Coil and 2.x Ex Primal cycle, everything would be peachy, if you can't do the content..you simply miss out, it happens in LARGE MMORPGs, you simply won't (shouldn't) be able to do everything. But now that there's a need to continually create "Story mode" and "Savage mode", they kind of HAVE to create content for a "small %" and since you're throwing out populations - Did you know, Alliance content were dying out because people got their gear and moved on? Why do you think NA/EU players were begging for an "alliance roulette"? Because no one were doing them until we got forced back into it.

Also, sorry to break it to you, but I don't do drugs nor have medication that would "affect me" as you're implying (which is rude as ****, by the way) and I know you love to disagree with everything and say I'm wrong about everything but, it's extremely obvious. Everything is "populated" including Savage, so you just have something against content you don't even touch. I guarantee "Deep Dungeons" is also a waste of resources until we see otherwise, because it will be a flat out lie if you sit and tell me people run the new dungeons to run them and not because of, say, the Lore tomes.

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#26 Apr 25 2016 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Why is that necessary? When all they had to do was just create another set of Binding Coil type difficulty if they weren't going to have "3 difficulties" like they said they couldn't due to lack of resources. You're trying to pin the blame of Savage content when in reality, they spend far more time and resources on content people rarely use or only use because it's the only source for something. When you're capped on Lore tomes, do you run Antitower or Lost City Hard every day, numerous times? Or are you more likely to run it for your daily and to cap off Lore as it's the MAIN source of high lore return?


OK, so your train of thought seems to be that savage-mode content has suffered for two reasons:

1) because you can gear up nearly as well just by farming tomes.
2) because you can experience the storyline of savage mode through normal mode.

However, I disagree with you because:

1) the participation rates were equally low back in the days of coil when story mode didn't exist.

Hio, I think you vastly underestimate or just don't understand the mindset of the typical casual/midcore player. The reason why we're casual/midcore is because our focus isn't solely on itemization and min/maxing. We just want to be able to experience everything. More specifically, we want to have a fair shot at experiencing everything.

In a perfect world -- with the insta-death jump roping that is FFXIV's battle design -- everyone would be able to find compatible statics to get through this content. Progressing through savage/hardcore raids really would be a choice. But this isn't a perfect world, and most people are unable to find statics/groups to get through this content in a way that's fun/efficient. We've gone through this over and over and over again, and the last thing I want to do here is to have us start chasing our tails again... but story mode was created to give the bulk of this game's players a chance of experiencing a part of the game that was otherwise a closed door.

Hardcore raiders in this game (not saying here that you're among them) can't have their cake and eat it, too. They can't demand this content be built a certain way, and then not expect the development team to build an option for most of their paying customers to complete that content.

The numbers don't lie. Look at the low completion rates of Midas Savage, and look at the low completion rates for Coil. Those figures are abysmal! You can blame it on the development team, casual players, the Easter Bunny, whatever... bottom line is that, for many reasons, most people are choosing not to do Savage Mode content -- and it has very little to do with iLevels and more to do with the content simply isn't efficient or enjoyable. And players have been making this choice for a very long time.

Quote:
Also, sorry to break it to you, but I don't do drugs nor have medication that would "affect me" as you're implying (which is rude as ****, by the way) and I know you love to disagree with everything and say I'm wrong about everything but, it's extremely obvious. Everything is "populated" including Savage, so you just have something against content you don't even touch. I guarantee "Deep Dungeons" is also a waste of resources until we see otherwise, because it will be a flat out lie if you sit and tell me people run the new dungeons to run them and not because of, say, the Lore tomes.


I'll respond to this in three parts.

1) I honestly didn't mean to offend you about drug usage! Here in the states, we often joke about, "I don't know what kind of crack you're smoking, but..." And lately, the development of dispensaries is kind of a new and exciting/interesting thing. If you lived here, my comment would have been taken as light-hearted humor and a play on current events. I'm not literally accusing you of being a druggie! And marijuana isn't even that big of a deal... it's just weed. Heck, my neighbor in Seattle gave me weed as thanks for hosting a barbecue. So, for real, I apologize for that misunderstanding. You're definitely not being called a druggie or someone whose mind has been destroyed by heroin or the like.

1b) That said, my comment was in response to a completely ridiculous comment that you made. You were putting words in the mouths of others on this forum, and that's not cool. That's far more damning than me making a pot joke. You can try to play it off, but it is what it is.

2) I actually don't like disagreeing with everything you say. If you were a bit more thoughtful with your posts and didn't make so many loaded assumptions (such as "you just have something against content you don't even touch"), then I wouldn't need to correct you. For the record, I've said many times (enough that you should know better) that I joined a coil static last year and tried to get through coil, but the static regularly struggled with membership and eventually fell apart. So that should forever kill your assumption that "(I) have something against content (I) don't even touch." I wanted to do it, and yes, I did touch it. Smiley: smile

3) You say, "Everything is "populated" including Savage." Technically, that is true. But if I'm in charge of providing food/drinks at two different parties happening at the same time -- and one party has 10 people, while the other party has 1,400 people -- then the vast majority of my catering is going to be for the party with 1,400 people. In my opinion, to suggest otherwise is laughable. And it would be equally absurd to say that all of those 1,400 people are all shunning the other party for one extremely narrow reason.



Edited, Apr 25th 2016 6:16pm by Thayos
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