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Should 4.x Get a Level Cap Increase?Follow

#27 May 04 2016 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Playerbase.


Hate the game, not the player.

FFXIV was intentionally designed (and this has been clear since 1.x was scrapped) to be played by people who are busy and can't invest large chunks of time. That's why so much of the game's content can be completed (not just attempted) in 30 minutes or less. And that's certainly a big reason why the jobs were all made to be so balanced.

You are right in that many players don't play their jobs properly, but it's not because people are incapable -- it's because they don't participate in the content that requires perfection. Many of us casual & midcore players still strive for optimal output, even though we don't do the hardcore raids. However, I know there are many casual players who just kind of do their own thing, because ultimately it doesn't really matter.

And that's exactly why I'd love for the development team to consider adding enhanced abilities or skill trees. As I said earlier, there will always be players -- many, in fact -- who will choose to upgrade whichever skills the raiding community deems is "best" for the hardcore content. This will be the case even among players who will never touch hardcore raids. And, to be totally honest, I might even be one of those players (because I always hold out hope that, against all odds, I might someday find seven other equally dedicated people whose schedules happen to match my own).

But so many people simply play this game for fun, and they'd be totally happy with the option to grow their characters in ways that would be illogical to hardcore raiders. And what's wrong with that? Adding in these options will add more "progression" for the hardcores and more "fun" for the casuals.

Win/win, right? Or is it really not that simple?
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#28 May 04 2016 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
And what's wrong with that?
Off the top of my head you'd need to read literal resumes to find the proper setup to tackle group content.
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#29 May 04 2016 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
If you really want to get around the balance thing, then some people have to accept that Rock will beat Scissors. The MMO endgame some aspire to seems to be the eternal struggle of Paper instead beating Scissors. The concept of the trinity probably needs to be abandoned, at least out of dev enforcement, with people instead picking and choosing their skills as they go from a classless start with vanity choices further asserting a look to their character.

So, let's say someone likes the image of a White Mage. They start off picking a staff, club, or hammer with stats well suited to healing. Perhaps they like the aesthetic of the white robes with red trim, or they could adopt more the D&D model of an armored cleric, including holy offensive magic. In time, you'd simply continue to foster skills related to your desired play style like cures, regens, status removals, and so on. But then again, someone could do exactly the same, but instead preferring swords and heavier armor, making them more the Paladin archetype. The game would never officially call you these things, but in time, what cookie cutters do arise would pick up such monikers.

Getting the introductory skills for any sort of "tree" shouldn't be too difficult, but it's the combination of what you do with them after that could lead to both individuality and ingenuity. When you also eliminate things like harsh DPS checks or allow environment to play a role in your encounters, battles will vary based on who all is present, presuming it's meant to be more of an epic encounter. It's also kinda why "attack who has the highest enmity" is sorta dumb when you attempt to think of it from a realistic perspective. Mobs are going to have different instincts or levels of intelligence. Wasting attention on the armored dude doing little damage just wouldn't seem smart when you have that squishy guy in robes lobbing meteors from afar. What you'll wind up with is a true variation of tactics when people begin to consider how to keep the mob away from that perceived threat or simply keeping the target alive if there isn't a way. And that could further go into dynamics as a mob realizes the healer should possibly be the first target. This would would be where the player would be wise to have invested in defensive skills, either to soften blows or to keep them from coming in the first place.

In the end, you could be a glass cannon, sure, but you might not get far if you play alone. The more successful players will likely be some degree of hybrid, and I don't mean that in the damning sense we tend to get in MMOs with things toned down because specialists would whine. I look to it more as actions having consequences. You might be the rock to scissors in one fight, but somewhere along the way, it'll be more like you're the rock against paper assuming any attempt at mob variety is made. The above hypothetical White Mage is going to want to have some means to deal out hurt, unless they're quite okay with grouping exclusively with people who could do it for them.

There is so much wisdom in this post that I have to acknowledge.

ESO and Vanilla XIV are not that different in general approach but ended in a different result (XIV ditching and ESO keeping)

You start with an open class which can equip most skills depending on the weapon and can equip various armors. In my memory of XIV builds were called titles, in ESO they have titles for builds. The original XIV was criticized for classes being too open. In ESO there are limits, and they have traits aligned with certain gears or guild lines. But enough talking about the past, ARR took the game in a different direction and are most likely not going to go back and change the core this far into the game's life. Though they could make classes viable in open world or public content that relies less on the trinity or a stand-alone dungeon like Deep Dungeon. This would take them wanting to put development time into making or wanting that.

You hit the nail on the head for dynamic enemy AI. If enmity was so volatile and unpredictable, then even with the strongest DPS skill set, one would have to worry about other things besides doing the mechanical burst rotation or dodging a patterned environmental aspect. A healer would have to know when or when not to heal the heavens weighing a death or party wipe as a consequence. As for the tank if his aggro skills were not so overpowering, but limited in spurts or if his survival was rock steady or weaker in certain circumstances, he would have to know when to go all out getting hate or let some of the others bear some of his burden. It's kind of like the Souls series, mobs hit like a tank, don't have a billion hit points, but if you play smart, the game is actually easy and enjoyable because it requires focus on when you do skills and not how many you can do. And the souls series is kind of simple, so much more could be done in a multi-player scenario.

And yes it would take an interesting experimental foray into these dynamic situations, not needing 40 skills on hand in all or one circumstance but instead having a fluid 1-10 skills depending on the circumstance, and making it more about it's what,where,how and when you do it.
#30 May 04 2016 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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When I was more active in MU* coding, how I'd handle mob behavior was one of this things I mulled on from time if I made my own game. As is, current MMOs tend to be either heavily scripted or little more than "spam this to keep a hidden number high so a mob focuses on you" sort of manipulation.

On the statistical end, I had affix behaviors like:
Confrontational = Focus on the character with the highest Attack/Strength.
Standoffish = Focus on the character with the highest HP/Vitality.
Deft = Focus on the character with the highest Dexterity.
Nimble = Focus on the character with the highest Agility.
Discerning = Focus on the character with the highest Magic Attack/Intelligence.
Zealous = Focus on the character with the highest Mind.
Flamboyant = Focus on the character with the highest Charisma.

These traits would be hidden to the player and would vary as things respawn, effectively making each fight potentially different. However, I upped the random factor further in that mobs could have further enhancements to the above mentioned categories. Depending on their move sets, you might not even notice, but a traditionally STR-heavy mob getting an even further STR bonus might facilitate a slightly different strategy. Especially since fights typically weren't going to be Many Allies vs. 1 Monster, but something more variable where I further distinguished mobs into size categories with party formations that followed.

Since this is an MMO and not text-based, however, we could technically go further in their (re)actions. Wear red when you fight a bull-type mob? You might be the target. Cast Ice magic against a mob that really hates the cold? It might wanna pick on you. Could even have ones that prefer hit and run tactics or might not even want to fight at all, instead turtling up and constantly curing themselves. Yoinking a page from FF4, anyone wearing metallic gear could receive slight debuffs simply being around certain mob types due to a magnetic aura. Some traits can be consistent, sure, as that's part of what makes a race/species/whatever, but I really do believe that if we want to make players distinguishable, our foes need to be, too. And not just because some want PvP that way.

Plus it kinda fits more snugly into my ideal crafting systems where items are more customized to our play style than every Iron Sword being exactly the same.
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#31 May 04 2016 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
When I was more active in MU* coding, how I'd handle mob behavior was one of this things I mulled on from time if I made my own game. As is, current MMOs tend to be either heavily scripted or little more than "spam this to keep a hidden number high so a mob focuses on you" sort of manipulation.

On the statistical end, I had affix behaviors like:
Confrontational = Focus on the character with the highest Attack/Strength.
Standoffish = Focus on the character with the highest HP/Vitality.
Deft = Focus on the character with the highest Dexterity.
Nimble = Focus on the character with the highest Agility.
Discerning = Focus on the character with the highest Magic Attack/Intelligence.
Zealous = Focus on the character with the highest Mind.
Flamboyant = Focus on the character with the highest Charisma.

These traits would be hidden to the player and would vary as things respawn, effectively making each fight potentially different. However, I upped the random factor further in that mobs could have further enhancements to the above mentioned categories. Depending on their move sets, you might not even notice, but a traditionally STR-heavy mob getting an even further STR bonus might facilitate a slightly different strategy. Especially since fights typically weren't going to be Many Allies vs. 1 Monster, but something more variable where I further distinguished mobs into size categories with party formations that followed.


Interesting, you assigned signature tendencies to enemies. The basketball game NBA2k series recently did this. Ironically, this is probably the most realistic simulation of basketball ever created. It made it's competitor seem rather simple like a game created in the 90s. If I was ever to make an rpg with dialogue choices and risk/reward, I can imagine npcs that respond differently based on various tendencies and how you interact with them.

I don't know if this is only something you conjured up or if it is commonplace. But you just blew my mind lol. I am thinking of scenarios in past games I played were this a commonly used thing.

Seriha wrote:
Since this is an MMO and not text-based, however, we could technically go further in their (re)actions. Wear red when you fight a bull-type mob? You might be the target. Cast Ice magic against a mob that really hates the cold? It might wanna pick on you. Could even have ones that prefer hit and run tactics or might not even want to fight at all, instead turtling up and constantly curing themselves. Yoinking a page from FF4, anyone wearing metallic gear could receive slight debuffs simply being around certain mob types due to a magnetic aura. Some traits can be consistent, sure, as that's part of what makes a race/species/whatever, but I really do believe that if we want to make players distinguishable, our foes need to be, too. And not just because some want PvP that way.

Plus it kinda fits more snugly into my ideal crafting systems where items are more customized to our play style than every Iron Sword being exactly the same.

Wear red when you fight a bull type mob. It seems so simple yet you can see the profound effect that would take shape. Perhaps mid fight an event might happen randomly which altered the color perception of the monster. Can you imagine the havoc following that lol?When you mention the cold I can imagine people thinking that might exclude a mage without cold magic or melee feeling left out. But in that circumstance a dev could just design assign different reactions based on the element cast. Maybe fire would not damage it as much primarily but what if that fire magic loosened it's armor and allowed melees for a spurt to dish out more damage and gain crit boons.Add in other spells with different boons. I remember quite well in my quest for black belt that damn turtle would go in it's shell if execution wasn't maintained.

On the magnetic aura thing. That is a trait just as aggro by sight, sound, smell was in older mmos. An enemy that is repelled or drawn to a specific metal worn by players. I can see how simple a few of them could be if spread around the world as the ending global traits. But throw in more unique characteristics intricately placed throughout the world. And the major feeling of grinding disappears almost over night. That novelty seeking behavior that many people crave would be satisfied in subtle or not so subtle ways.

If only something like this could happen more often.
#32 May 04 2016 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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XIV is a simple game for simple people, no offense. I would be highly annoyed if I had to interrogate [insert job or class here] just to find out whether they're tank, dps, support, healer or how much of which of each they are. It could make sense to give a class other ways to fill it's intended role, but I don't like the idea of allowing role swaps based on merits, points or other customization for the reason I just mentioned.

I don't really wanna dig for the quote because most people probably don't care, it being WoW related, but this is also a big part of the reason why you don't have certain classes in that game filling multiple roles in several different ways. Someone will math out what works best in a vacuum and everyone will go with that spec unless they're not interested in endgame and then no one will care.
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#33 May 04 2016 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV is a simple game for simple people, no offense. I would be highly annoyed if I had to interrogate [insert job or class here] just to find out whether they're tank, dps, support, healer or how much of which of each they are. It could make sense to give a class other ways to fill it's intended role, but I don't like the idea of allowing role swaps based on merits, points or other customization for the reason I just mentioned.

I don't really wanna dig for the quote because most people probably don't care, it being WoW related, but this is also a big part of the reason why you don't have certain classes in that game filling multiple roles in several different ways. Someone will math out what works best in a vacuum and everyone will go with that spec unless they're not interested in endgame and then no one will care.

Well I don't see a drastic revamp happening in XIV at this point. But the roles could be very clear with just a simple icon for Tank,Heal,Support. The job titles could further define what flavor of tank,heal,support they are.

If content is designed the way it is XIV which is mostly static in defined instances with the boss being the main and only intricate design. Then the math will figure out the best result and everyone will still be cookie cutter. But if the environment and enemies in the path of supposed content all had mechanisms or traits requiring different setups to be optimal. Then the math would not be accurate assuming tendencies were various and unique.

The journey from beginning to end is the exercise not just the end. If it is only the end, then just remove all the obstacles and just give me a 10-30 minute boss fight with no dungeon leading to it. It is possible but we may or may not see it in this game if at all.
#34 May 04 2016 at 6:27 PM Rating: Default
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Quite a few Savage mechanics already work like that and some monsters in general in XIV. For example in content that matters you'll notice how Tanks will rarely get targeted by certain mechanics (not obvious ones that would force the monster off them either) that isn't based on enmity, so the mechanic actually exists in full effect, they just don't do it because it's too confusing or "complex" as yoshi says. So it's not so much "hate the game not the player" when the (loudest) player tends to be the one asking for a simpler game :p

That's why I enjoyed a lot of XI's mechanics even if it was "easy" to deal with, because it added a new flavor to fit with the way the system maintained at level 75 for so long. Even in cap raised areas like abyssea, you had enemies (and even flowers) that had aura effects that activated after a certain skill went off or just naturally, for example Pieste mobs would have glowing eyes that will paralyze/petrify you if you look at it and you simply just had to blind it to avoid that mechanic (unless it's an NM with resistance) or you'd have something with doom Aura.

The biggest thing though - they admitted in Beta 2 they swapped out the chocobo buddy Gambit AI system to put into bosses to add "diversity" so it again falls into: "If we want to do it we will but I don't want to because player exclusion blah blah" or something.

So really, if they decide to raise the level cap, hopefully they actually give us..smarter enemies above all, despite ironically using the Gambit system from XII which could already lead to something more dynamic if they actually put some work into it. For as magical and "weird" many places in XIV, the environments are boring as hell.


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#35 May 04 2016 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if this is only something you conjured up or if it is commonplace. But you just blew my mind lol. I am thinking of scenarios in past games I played were this a commonly used thing.


From my own experience with MU* coding and playing this is unique. At the very least I've never seen nor heard of anything like it. It's a really cool idea though and I'd love to expand on it to make really interesting encounters in that kind of space. MU* combat can be pretty chaotic since it's basically a combat log in your face. But there's room here to make some interesting stuff.
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#36 May 04 2016 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
XIV is a simple game for simple people, no offense. I would be highly annoyed if I had to interrogate [insert job or class here] just to find out whether they're tank, dps, support, healer or how much of which of each they are. It could make sense to give a class other ways to fill it's intended role, but I don't like the idea of allowing role swaps based on merits, points or other customization for the reason I just mentioned.

I don't really wanna dig for the quote because most people probably don't care, it being WoW related, but this is also a big part of the reason why you don't have certain classes in that game filling multiple roles in several different ways. Someone will math out what works best in a vacuum and everyone will go with that spec unless they're not interested in endgame and then no one will care.

I think you're looking at this from the perspective where "paper beats scissors" I mentioned earlier. Obviously, I'm not suggesting we remove the ability to inspect one's gear and skill choices, but I think some mystery is lost when you know the fight is designed exactly for 8 people, 2 DPS/2 Tanks/2 Healers/2 Support. If people really are quick to claim socialization is dead in MMOs, I can't think of a much better way to get talk started than inquiring how one might fight.

Overall, a given party in my theoretical system may indeed have a hard time with one encounter, but breeze through another. Yet, this party should be able to drop/add people at whim without it suddenly becoming make or break to progress. This is obviously where something like mob scalability comes into play, if for any reason, to avoid situations like XIV's hunt zergs. So, no, you may not get that super hard encounter if it winds up being 50 players against 1 mob in an open world setting, but I also posit this where you really need to factor in mob behavior. Will that "boss" truly wander around alone? Or might he have minions? Imagine if they actually used the environment against us, too, and not just to insta-kill.

In time, people will acquire their own reputations. It also allows for some play style flexibility. Are you really that solo badass? Well, if you play properly, you just might. On the other hand, 3 skilled vets could do something a group of 20 couldn't, or at least more quickly. I want "knowing your enemy" to be something more than watching some youtube vids and trying to dance to a script, but rather, adapting to a living battle environment where not having a Plan B will humble you. You get no legendary tales like David vs. Goliath in MMOs. If anything, we're too often just faceless drag-alongs.

Edited, May 4th 2016 8:35pm by Seriha
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#37 May 04 2016 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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I don't know if this is only something you conjured up or if it is commonplace. But you just blew my mind lol. I am thinking of scenarios in past games I played were this a commonly used thing.


From my own experience with MU* coding and playing this is unique. At the very least I've never seen nor heard of anything like it. It's a really cool idea though and I'd love to expand on it to make really interesting encounters in that kind of space. MU* combat can be pretty chaotic since it's basically a combat log in your face. But there's room here to make some interesting stuff.

Well, if I did go the MU* route, it'd be more MUSH than MUD in that it'd be truly turn-based. Such would also facilitate the creation of NPC allies you could raise and give various AI behaviors of their own for when players aren't around or they don't want to particularly do what you're up for.

The system, ambitious as it may sound, was precisely why I never got terribly deep into coding it as it wasn't something I'd call a simple one-man job. Where I was more prime, this was also where MMOs themselves were beginning to rise and the act of RPing text was losing out to graphics and music. The fact I wouldn't have been basing it on an existing franchise like FF, Star Wars, or whatever would also be a tough sell since it would've been an original high fantasy setting. Since then, I've played various games where there things I've seen that I'd incorporate because they were better than a previous idea, and so on. One thing I would've at least striven for, however, is that once the basics were down, anyone could actually contribute content if they studied what's what and tinkered with some builder characters I would've had on the side.

Anyway, while there is stuff like HSpace that can depict three-dimensionality in the text medium, I'd be remiss if I didn't think it'd be hard for some people to pick up and really understand. In that vein, that's where MMOs will inevitably have an edge because simply seeing a mob behind is more immediately recognizable than reading an XYZ coordinate plot.
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#38 May 04 2016 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Anyway, while there is stuff like HSpace that can depict three-dimensionality in the text medium, I'd be remiss if I didn't think it'd be hard for some people to pick up and really understand. In that vein, that's where MMOs will inevitably have an edge because simply seeing a mob behind is more immediately recognizable than reading an XYZ coordinate plot.


You'd almost have to do some kind of pseudo-first person viewpoint where four sides of a room are all treated independently and characters would need some kind of orientation to determine which direction they were facing. Complicated for sure, but not impossible. The issue would be getting people to wrap their brains around it without bleeding from the ears. That'd be a challenge for sure.

Oh and your builders would burn you in effigy. Just sayin'.

Edited, May 4th 2016 8:05pm by Callinon
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#39 May 04 2016 at 7:14 PM Rating: Good
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Well, that's when I'd confess that fights would not only be turn-based, but also "instanced" like you'd see in earlier FFs. I mentioned mob formations, but you'd also have your party. Perhaps imagine a mix of Suikoden II and FF12, where you could have a 6-man group, either full of players or the gambit-like AIs filling in as needed. Obviously, if I wanted to be an ***, I could go more TRPG and make the fights 2D grids, but I figure each version has strengths and weaknesses.

I mention Suikoden in particular, though, because it also did things with weapons like having have short, medium, and long range types. Where you were positioned would affect what you could attack on the enemy end relative to your weapon choice. However, since I planned on skills to customizable, a sword move that starts off hitting one foe could be trained to eventually hit a row, column, or even the whole enemy unit at varying costs of damage and something like AP. I'd also idealized spells being broken down into elements, where an affinity you chose at the start would reflect how easily you could raise others on the grid. In time, that aforementioned sword ability could've gotten fire magic magic imbued into it. Or something like Ice was actually a combination of Water and Wind, but independently a mob may not be weak to either of those.

There was a lot of ruminating on combos, weapon types, their strengths and weakness that went on back then, to the point I successfully intimidated myself because I didn't know anyone else who could either run with such or even be interested. MU*s could certainly be their own drama pools.
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#40 May 04 2016 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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I'd play the crap out of that.
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#41 May 04 2016 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Loving this discussion.
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#42 May 04 2016 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

I think you're looking at this from the perspective where "paper beats scissors" I mentioned earlier. Obviously, I'm not suggesting we remove the ability to inspect one's gear and skill choices, but I think some mystery is lost when you know the fight is designed exactly for 8 people, 2 DPS/2 Tanks/2 Healers/2 Support. If people really are quick to claim socialization is dead in MMOs, I can't think of a much better way to get talk started than inquiring how one might fight.

Overall, a given party in my theoretical system may indeed have a hard time with one encounter, but breeze through another. Yet, this party should be able to drop/add people at whim without it suddenly becoming make or break to progress. This is obviously where something like mob scalability comes into play, if for any reason, to avoid situations like XIV's hunt zergs. So, no, you may not get that super hard encounter if it winds up being 50 players against 1 mob in an open world setting, but I also posit this where you really need to factor in mob behavior. Will that "boss" truly wander around alone? Or might he have minions? Imagine if they actually used the environment against us, too, and not just to insta-kill.

In time, people will acquire their own reputations. It also allows for some play style flexibility. Are you really that solo badass? Well, if you play properly, you just might. On the other hand, 3 skilled vets could do something a group of 20 couldn't, or at least more quickly. I want "knowing your enemy" to be something more than watching some youtube vids and trying to dance to a script, but rather, adapting to a living battle environment where not having a Plan B will humble you. You get no legendary tales like David vs. Goliath in MMOs. If anything, we're too often just faceless drag-alongs.

Not to mention that if fights become more than just doing your best rotation that might bring a calm between the storm while dealing with the dynamics of the environment and enemy tendencies. That would lend some space for players to socialize a bit more during the lulls between phases. A developer could initiate these lulls by having some transition animations with certain environmental things being transformed to change the rules of the battle.

I can think of one way one enemy could escape the zerg mentality. Say normally the monster is average size with small party setups. As more members engage and wear it down, it begins growing in size,strength, and agility until it reaches a peak. Then it begins to shed pieces of itself as the party grows larger and larger. These shed pieces of it turn into it's own party. If a zerg is attempted the enemies in turn try and zerg key party members down in order.
#43 May 04 2016 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
Well I don't see a drastic revamp happening in XIV at this point. But the roles could be very clear with just a simple icon for Tank,Heal,Support. The job titles could further define what flavor of tank,heal,support they are.

I don't disagree that it's a possibility, but it makes a little less sense if you consider that adding these flavor roles is something that's pretty easily achieved by adding new jobs or classes altogether.

Seriha wrote:
If people really are quick to claim socialization is dead in MMOs, I can't think of a much better way to get talk started than inquiring how one might fight.

I think ultimately you'd run into the same problem anyway. Players have shown that they're barely willing to put together a pick up group these days, I'm not certain how another check(however slight) will motivate them.

I think the bottom line for me is not trusting that SE could implement such a system well and still have it function properly if/when they do decide to increase the level cap along side it. At least, not without making the increase in player power seem wonky.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 May 05 2016 at 12:02 AM Rating: Excellent
Most players I know want more complexity than the game currently offers -- just not in the form of more jump roping. So I really don't think diversifying roles or even requiring minimal communication would be a hinderance... in fact, I think people would embrace that. But yes, I think the most realistic solution would be adding new roles via jobs. Not sure I see it ever happening though, which is sad.

Edited, May 5th 2016 6:43am by Thayos
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#45 May 05 2016 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I almost have everything at 60... it would be a nice incentive to keep doing stuff if they did. But at the same time it could also mean i'll go "***** this, i'm not leveling everything to the next cap again..."

I dont really see the point to a level increase though. Since we have gear with ilevels now, who cares about physical levels. It's just a way to keep you grinding for increasingly long periods of time. We're already at what, 3,5 mil exp from 59 to 60. They would easily make it 10+ mil tnl to get to 70 or even 75 from the level before that.

Same goes with gear every update. None of it stays relevant. It's super anoying. If i didnt have to re-get new gear from essentially 0 every update, i'd be a lot happier about the game.
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#46 May 05 2016 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Not to mention Yoshida's plan is to "Reset" the game every expansion as well. 3.0 was a reset but it was like loading a save state on an emulator, rather than actually starting over.
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#47 May 06 2016 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
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Seriha wrote:
Well, that's when I'd confess that fights would not only be turn-based, but also "instanced" like you'd see in earlier FFs. I mentioned mob formations, but you'd also have your party. Perhaps imagine a mix of Suikoden II and FF12, where you could have a 6-man group, either full of players or the gambit-like AIs filling in as needed. Obviously, if I wanted to be an ***, I could go more TRPG and make the fights 2D grids, but I figure each version has strengths and weaknesses.

I mention Suikoden in particular, though, because it also did things with weapons like having have short, medium, and long range types. Where you were positioned would affect what you could attack on the enemy end relative to your weapon choice. However, since I planned on skills to customizable, a sword move that starts off hitting one foe could be trained to eventually hit a row, column, or even the whole enemy unit at varying costs of damage and something like AP. I'd also idealized spells being broken down into elements, where an affinity you chose at the start would reflect how easily you could raise others on the grid. In time, that aforementioned sword ability could've gotten fire magic magic imbued into it. Or something like Ice was actually a combination of Water and Wind, but independently a mob may not be weak to either of those.

There was a lot of ruminating on combos, weapon types, their strengths and weakness that went on back then, to the point I successfully intimidated myself because I didn't know anyone else who could either run with such or even be interested. MU*s could certainly be their own drama pools.


Suikoden was one of my favorite games of all time..


Any how on to the topic.
nothing like that would eve happen anyway.. to complicated for anyone who plays this game. No one wants change, challenge or imagination.
I have lost faith in this game ever being other than a rotation that everyone uses. There will never be any reaction to a instance or situation.
Filth hit it on the head the majority of the people that play this game are simple. Challenge scares them, Anything different scares them. Using your brain to get through something scares them. FFXIV remind me of a hack and slash button masher.


A level cap increase would probably push me completely out of the game at this point.
Again it is more of the same ole garbage with this game.
I just got all my crafts to 60 and I hated doing it.





Edited, May 6th 2016 4:16pm by Nashred
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#48 May 06 2016 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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A level cap increase would probably push me completely out of the game at this point.


Something tells me you'll keep pushing through it!
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#49 May 06 2016 at 5:33 PM Rating: Default
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Nashred wrote:

A level cap increase would probably push me completely out of the game at this point.
Again it is more of the same ole garbage with this game.
I just got all my crafts to 60 and I hated doing it


Yeah, I think this is going to be the biggest problem unless 4.0 is completely different. No matter how much people may say they loved heavensward, even the most diehard fan of XIV ARR had to step back and question things when a brand new expansion was essentially the same game as 2013-2014.

I highly doubt Yoshida and SE could get away with pulling yet another version of 2.0 WITH SWIMMING THIS TIME! without backlash, because the drop in subs from 3.0 > 3.1 delay and then 3.1 > 3.2 having not as big but just as big of a drop off kind of says they need to REALLY do something new. You can only repeat the same formula for so long before the playerbase moves on. A big reason a lot haven't is because if you look at the current MMO market, there's nothing really out there, so your choice falls with the shiniest of the group because other MMOs are localized from Korea/China/Japan and aren't kept up because of different NA/EU standards. So people who enjoy playing MMOs and want to play an MMORPG, have very little to choose from, which is why Doom is even getting backlash because it mimicks "the same formula" in order to stay up to date on gameplay standards rather than being the classic gameplay people know and love.

Say what you will but you only have to look at recent releases like Fallout 4 and Dark Souls 3 and see just how easily it drags people away from the game, no matter how much like it..they can easily leave it in the dust for awhile (sometimes without word lol), that shows people are REALLY wanting something new. If this was back in XI's prime, people would raise hell to SE if they reiterated Dynamis 10 times over instead of something new for the NEW expansion pack, you know? Because even though Limbus, Einherjar, Vaguary, Ambuscade, Delve, Assault/Skirmish/Nyzul/Legion/Salvage/etc had a similar setup, they all had unique elements and rewards and wasn't just the same exact thing with a different skin.

So instead of raising level cap..more complexity and diversity would do wonders, especially in terms of itemization.

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#50 May 06 2016 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I think this is going to be the biggest problem unless 4.0 is completely different.


I've tried asking Nashred this question before and had no success with an answer, so I'll try asking you: different how? In what way would an expansion need to be different from the game it's expanding in order for it to be "something new?" No snark here, I really want to know what you think.

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if you look at the current MMO market, there's nothing really out there, so your choice falls with the shiniest of the group because other MMOs are localized from Korea/China/Japan and aren't kept up because of different NA/EU standards


I'm not sure that's because of different standards so much as rushed or many times haphazard development of a localized game. I'd love more variety in the MMO space and Korea and China pump them out like some kind of MMO-making factory..country...region...thing...I got nothin. But even when they create a good game, the localization tends to fall flat on its face when it's brought to the west (did you see Blade and Soul's tooltips when they launched in the US? Hoo boy). So maybe everyone could try just a bit harder there and try making a good game instead of a cash in on hype.

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Say what you will but you only have to look at recent releases like Fallout 4 and Dark Souls 3 and see just how easily it drags people away from the game, no matter how much like it.


I'm not sure that's a bad thing actually. Wouldn't you agree that it's healthy and good for people to play a variety of games? For people to experience different things that don't necessarily take the form of an MMO? I'm not sure it's necessarily good that an MMO occupy 100% of someone's gaming time; that once someone is "playing an MMO" it literally means they never play anything else.

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So instead of raising level cap..


Why "instead of?" Understanding that the core design of FFXIV is a vertical game and that cannot change without a 2.0-scale overhaul which is unlikely in an expansion. Why NOT raise the level cap? Does raising the level cap preclude development of other systems? Does raising the level cap stifle innovation in some way? WoW doesn't seem to think so. And doesn't raising the level cap neatly stratify the game's content so that you always know what you're supposed to be working on rather than getting super confused 8 years in when everything is the same level cap, you're just starting out, and you have literally no clue?
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#51 May 06 2016 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure that's a bad thing actually. Wouldn't you agree that it's healthy and good for people to play a variety of games? For people to experience different things that don't necessarily take the form of an MMO? I'm not sure it's necessarily good that an MMO occupy 100% of someone's gaming time; that once someone is "playing an MMO" it literally means they never play anything else.


Couldn't agree more with this.

Variety is healthy in everything, and I think most people are on board with this. When a massive new AAA title with rave reviews pulls people away for awhile, I don't think that's odd at all. Most people who are gamers want to play the latest games. And why spend so much time in FFXIV -- a game that doesn't require a huge time investment -- unless you either REALLY love it or you're a hardcore raider with a heavy static commitment?

Full disclosure... then there are the folks like me who don't have time to play all the games I'd like. I still have Fallout IV and Witcher 3 sitting unopened on my shelf. :(

Quote:
Why "instead of?" Understanding that the core design of FFXIV is a vertical game and that cannot change without a 2.0-scale overhaul which is unlikely in an expansion. Why NOT raise the level cap? Does raising the level cap preclude development of other systems? Does raising the level cap stifle innovation in some way? WoW doesn't seem to think so. And doesn't raising the level cap neatly stratify the game's content so that you always know what you're supposed to be working on rather than getting super confused 8 years in when everything is the same level cap, you're just starting out, and you have literally no clue?


I like the last point you make, about the level cap adding a logical path over the long run of the game. That would be kind of weird if XIV were on its fourth or fifth expansion and everything was at the same level. The content wouldn't last very long, either, unless you started implementing FFXI-style time gates, which I always felt were a bit jarring. ("We have to save the world! But... gotta wait until JP midnight before we can enter Jeuno and warn people!")
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