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Should 4.x Get a Level Cap Increase?Follow

#77 May 12 2016 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Theonehio wrote:
sandpark wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Yep, while I don't like ESO much since I don't like ES that much, it captures the ES games and put it into an online environment, kind of like how XI captured "FF" and put it online basically. That's why my main gripes with XIV falls with the "feel" of it.

Alright I am going to bite.

How is a Final Fantasy supposed to feel in your opinion?


And

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How does a FF perfectly translate to an online environment for you?


Depending on how much you look into the series, mostly comes down to the consistency of the world and the type of gameplay. For example, XI was obviously designed after FFIII and FFV using EQ as the MMO base, so that worked together.

Basically:

-World and Atmosphere: Which is why I said while I don't like ESO much, it pretty much got that nailed down like any other ES game.
-Story and how the characters actually meld into it, like if they actually feel like they're a part of the world and not just.."there"

In XI, you are "special", eventually, but for the most part you actually fit into the world. So while you may have these "special abilities", you weren't an unstoppable killing machine just because you were "chosen", you were actually helpless in the long run without support of the people the story is actually about. In XIV, being the "warrior of light" was basically their auto-win button for a lot of scenarios.

-Gameplay and "teamwork"

While in a lot of FF games you can auto win with summoning or grinding the ultimate gear being a single player game and all, you can tell the story and particular battles were designed around the concept of them working together. So while in terms of story you need x,y,z people, in terms of gameplay having each character bringing something important that isn't a hindrance without but definitely works into strategy for a fight makes it feel much more tactical in a sense as you say. Take XIV for example, while you need Tank/Healer/DPS, they designed the game largely around not really working together and you can still get through, which is why that TINY amount of content that requires actual teamwork and coordination and preparation is why I like it the most, which you found in XI by large because those of us who played it, knows just how much time and effort we took in just preparing for certain content or fights alone, not counting the actual fights themselves, and how we had to immediately switch to recovery mode when **** hits the fan.

Similar to when you're fighting any super boss or story boss in a FF game that requires you to prepare in various ways (either due to certain attacks or because they're programmed to behave a certain way based on who is/isn't present in the party etc) so just the variance of mechanics based around YOU more so than the game's internal design.

So while Single player =/= online, I wasn't and still isn't the only one who've always felt that XI kinda of felt like they tossed FFIII/V into an MMO setting even down to the story pacing. It's mostly the story and atmosphere. It wasn't award winning, but it didn't feel "there" to just be there, it all flowed together and how they explained their thought process for Rhapsodies when you look back on all the content and storylines you did, it all actually makes sense and you get the "ooooh" kind of feeling when something is revealed.

That's why despite not liking ESO, I have played many ES games, so when I played ESO I felt like I was playing just another ES game (not in a bad way) much like when I play XI I feel like I'm playing a FF game more so than when I play XIV.

The parts I bolded is where I feel you the most. My sentiments can relate to that. It's not just feature X must have Y but an overall feeling of consistency as well. This is what I meant by synergy too.
#78 May 12 2016 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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You could control what skills they used by gear or job selection. Want your npc to do samurai skillchains with you? Equip a GK on them. It's not one to one but there is play room for controlling them. You could control one for one what a pet did beside auto attack.


I see, you're talking about the adventuring fellow.. ok. But then I'd point to your chocobo companion in XIV. Want it to heal you? Set healer skills and put it in healer stance. Want it to fail hilariously at tanking? Equip tank skills, set it to tank stance, and despair. Then switch it back to healer.

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It could have if the options were more real. It offers an illusion of choice. You can equip blood for blood, but let's be real, you have to equip it. You could argue the same for XI except that since choices were limited to one sub job and encounters were more varied, aka not jump rope. You had to pick and chose what to sub based on encounters. I didn't say it didn't exist, just not so much.


Ok but then we're getting into encounter design and not character progression. I agree that the choices of cross-class skills are super limited and does create an illusion of choice. I'd like that system to be expanded or scrapped myself because as it is right now it's just a trap, same with the bonus stat system.

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There is turn based in XI. Each weapon has a speed of auto attacks and that varied based on the weapon you equip, the job you choose, the sub job you choose, what traits you have equipped, what spell or food buffs you have on. These all provide a means to alter your turns since combat was governed by an ATB like system, it's why some two hours were so overpowering and why there was such a big cooldown. XIV is faster but less dependent on player or world induced parameters.


Er no.. here I'm not following you. By this logic the GCD system used in XIV is akin to an ATB gauge that certain classes have the ability to speed up (MNK and NIN specifically). I don't think anyone would reasonably make that claim though. XI and XIV don't operate on a turn-based system, they operate in real time with swing timers and local/global cooldowns on abilities. XII was similar here.

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I am speaking about open world traversal where you control the mount or apparatus. Like the airships you get in FFs to fly all over the world, the buggy in FFVII, the ship rides in XI, you can do content during the ride. It's not just click on a node and whoosh you're there. This what old school mmo vets mean when they say mmos are online lobbies now.


I see. 10 didn't give you control over your airship either btw. You clicked a map and just went there. And I'd always assumed the "online lobby" thing was because MMOs are so heavily instanced now, not really sure what that has to do with the means of open world travel but ok. I'd also point to MMOs that have given too MUCH freedom in open world travel and have discovered that isn't always a good thing. WoW for instance opened up flight everywhere and it obliterated most open world encounters because people would fly down, do their thing, then pop back on a mount and fly to the next thing. They've actually stepped back from this idea by limiting flight until the end of an expansion (behind a big gameplay wall).

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VII had mime


Smiley: dubious

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Is that every FF, no it's not even most FF. But character synergy is something that I feel sets this franchise apart from other rpgs for me. Just my opinion.


Actually most single player RPGs (especially when you're in control of more than just your main character) are largely about building teams with synergistic qualities. Sometimes that takes the form of combined attacks (Chrono Trigger, Suikoden), sometimes it means one character sets up an enemy to be nuked down by another character (Xenosaga is a good example of this), or any number of other things that enable teams to work as teams. For an XIV example I'd point to Trick Attack and Foe's Requiem as being pretty helpful to your team. Tactical RPGs are based entirely around this concept. It is by no means defining of the FF series any more than any of these others. It's just a team game thing.

Edited, May 12th 2016 12:25pm by Callinon
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#79 May 13 2016 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Funnily enough, working on a FF mash-up MU* at the time, the consensus seemed more to NOT count XI within their little game/lore because they didn't think it FF enough. Mind, part of that was just people being against the subscription model at a time where the concept was still pretty young for (online) gaming.

So, while I did try to argue for its inclusion, I can't entirely disagree that it was story-lite, or perhaps more accurately, as dramatic as prior entries. We're more spectators to plots that unfold instead of being Cloud, Cecil, or whomever we're first left in control of. Barring the occasional lockout like with jobs or limit breaks, it was largely possible to play XI for a large chunk of its life span without really touching the story content. And I think that ultimately stuck with some because they couldn't look at the game and identify a main character. Eventually, I guess Shantotto kind of became the mascot with the other heroines getting popularity from time to time, but in the end, I think most of XI's plots wound up more simplified by fault of the medium.
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#80 May 13 2016 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

I see, you're talking about the adventuring fellow.. ok. But then I'd point to your chocobo companion in XIV. Want it to heal you? Set healer skills and put it in healer stance. Want it to fail hilariously at tanking? Equip tank skills, set it to tank stance, and despair. Then switch it back to healer.

For the companion it is almost the same with chocobo except with companions you can have different jobs within the trinity each with their own skills. With chocobo it's a more generalized be a DPS but there is no distinction of a job within that trinity division.

Quote:
There is turn based in XI. Each weapon has a speed of auto attacks and that varied based on the weapon you equip, the job you choose, the sub job you choose, what traits you have equipped, what spell or food buffs you have on. These all provide a means to alter your turns since combat was governed by an ATB like system, it's why some two hours were so overpowering and why there was such a big cooldown. XIV is faster but less dependent on player or world induced parameters.


Archmage Callinon wrote:
Er no.. here I'm not following you. By this logic the GCD system used in XIV is akin to an ATB gauge that certain classes have the ability to speed up (MNK and NIN specifically). I don't think anyone would reasonably make that claim though. XI and XIV don't operate on a turn-based system, they operate in real time with swing timers and local/global cooldowns on abilities. XII was similar here.


This would be the case if the system was global and not relegated to two classes specifically that can alter their speed. Also the XIV system core is less based around auto attack and singular cooldowns, it is governed by a global. Yes it has auto attack but it plays a lesser role in the bigger scheme of things. The entire XI game was designed around weapon proficiency with skill ups and the speed up or down of parameters. It is not classified as turn based but RTB in both mmos are designed with ATB in mind. Does a Hundred fist monk or KC wielding Dark hits more turns in a span of one minutes than a standard one?


Archmage Callinon wrote:
I see. 10 didn't give you control over your airship either btw. You clicked a map and just went there. And I'd always assumed the "online lobby" thing was because MMOs are so heavily instanced now, not really sure what that has to do with the means of open world travel but ok. I'd also point to MMOs that have given too MUCH freedom in open world travel and have discovered that isn't always a good thing. WoW for instance opened up flight everywhere and it obliterated most open world encounters because people would fly down, do their thing, then pop back on a mount and fly to the next thing. They've actually stepped back from this idea by limiting flight until the end of an expansion (behind a big gameplay wall).

Well I think we are both right on why some players consider mmos online lobbies. The basic belief is that anything that takes you of a living, breathing, virtual space within a game can be great for convenience but it can takeaway from the immersion,surprise, and magnitude of the world. If everyone could beam me up scotty to an exact location in 30 seconds anywhere in the world. Most people would do it, become thankful for it, and maybe become spoiled by it. Some people might still ignore the teleport and do it the old fashioned way. But those little stories(some joyous and some dreadful) skipped by bypassing the longer way will be lost along the way.

I am torn between the two. I don't like the idea of a bypass feature because I believe games whole purpose is to immerse me and lots of time to be invested in a world. But at the same time, I don't appreciate when games go the opposite way with the excessive busy work like walking back and forth multiple times during a questline or mundane harvesting with uninteresting mechanics being pushed hard.

Archmage Callinon wrote:

Actually most single player RPGs (especially when you're in control of more than just your main character) are largely about building teams with synergistic qualities. Sometimes that takes the form of combined attacks (Chrono Trigger, Suikoden), sometimes it means one character sets up an enemy to be nuked down by another character (Xenosaga is a good example of this), or any number of other things that enable teams to work as teams. For an XIV example I'd point to Trick Attack and Foe's Requiem as being pretty helpful to your team. Tactical RPGs are based entirely around this concept. It is by no means defining of the FF series any more than any of these others. It's just a team game thing.

I agree that other rpgs have tactical depth. At least for me, Final Fantasy has more than any other rpg franchise when it comes to team synergy, controlling multiple characters. Now if we are talking single character control than Elder Scrolls or Dark Souls would be that for me.
#81 May 13 2016 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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A level cap increase would probably push me completely out of the game at this point.


Something tells me you'll keep pushing through it!



I do not know but it is looks grim. I have not picked up the game since I last posted and this is the first time neither has Tesee..
We both still sub though.
At this point I am so under-geared I could not even run the new dungeons. I just can not bring myself to run anymore cookie cutter dungeons.
I just do not feel like running dungeon that are exactly the same every night for gear that is useless as soon as I get it.
I just want something new to do, I am bored out of my mind but I have given up all hope.
I do miss the house and certain things but I have no desire to do any combat in this game.

I think the shop also helped kill the game for us too.. All the cool stuff in the game goes there now. We were looking at this cool mount and guy was acting like look how cool I am and showing it off but he bought it. Those mounts should be available in game too and give people something to work towards. Items in a mmo should be worked toward not purchased.


Is this new expansion pay? If it is Probably will not buy it. Is there for sure a level cap increase?
Seriously I stopped following the game period. I have no Idea what is even coming to the game now. I saw something about new housing?
I pretty much gave up hope on anything new ever coming to the game. I know I do not even post here much anymore.
I think going back to FFXI even though it is a shell of its former self made us realise just how stale of a game this is.
I have some friends who left FFXIV pulling me towards Elder scrolls. I have pretty much just been playing games like rainbow etc.





Edited, May 13th 2016 1:41pm by Nashred

Edited, May 13th 2016 1:51pm by Nashred
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#82 May 13 2016 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

I've tried asking Nashred this question before and had no success with an answer, so I'll try asking you: different how? In what way would an expansion need to be different from the game it's expanding in order for it to be "something new?" No snark here, I really want to know what you think.



Because I have answered this question so many times.


Edited, May 13th 2016 1:51pm by Nashred
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#83 May 13 2016 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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I mean I know the game won't change at its core, but after playing Black Desert Online for a while I have to say I so dearly miss the open world. For all its flaws being out in the open world in BDO is just so refreshing and feels so good. I really wish FF had the same system of open world and traveling, I mean I wish a lot of things about XIV but still. That being said I am sure XIV could bring me back for a while if it just did what honestly everyone seems to want, give people more variety in the content, especially at the middle of the pack content.
#84 May 13 2016 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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So looking at SE's report, they're pretty much only staying afloat because of DQX and FFXIV which means if XV doesn't absolutely DOMINATE and the FFVII remake (that they're funneling funds to, let's be real) is actually not as good as people hope, there's definitely no hope for XIV ever straying from "what works" because they already make all of their money now doing very little and with the mog station stuff being insanely popular they really have no reason to "change" the game aside tweaks to stats here and there sadly. Then again, I'm just "cynical" because despite starting as a Wii MMO, DQX seemed to not really be hindered in any shape or form, even when they pulled people off (including Yoship) to relaunch XIV.

So I can actually see why they don't want to stray or take risks, because patch delays aside, there's a very good chance if they lose their revenue from their two fully supported MMOs it won't end well, since XV alone is a huge sink.

Since they're done with 3.x and most likely at best 4.0 intro scenario, 4.1 is probably the next time we'll see any major changes to the formula, swimming aside.
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#85 May 13 2016 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
if XV doesn't absolutely DOMINATE and the FFVII remake (that they're funneling funds to, let's be real) is actually not as good as people hope, there's definitely no hope for XIV ever straying from "what works"


I have no hope at all for VII to be honest. A game with a questionable story that was carried on the fact that it was the first 3D rendered game and had an interesting battle system. Taking away the turn-based aspect changes the dynamic completely and I'm not sure it's for the best.

XV on the other hand feels like it's got the weight of the future of JRPG resting on it's shoulders. Any game taking this long to develop has to be amazing so that's a given. I feel like they talk about how much progress they've made in the open world aspect of the game and the trailers show none of that.

It's almost as if SE has a group of people who stand around and reassure them that everything they touch turns to gold. Smiley: sly
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#86 May 13 2016 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Any game taking this long to develop has to be amazing so that's a given.


*cough*

Screenshot


Yeah that's pretty much right.
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#87 May 13 2016 at 8:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Oh snap.
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