I dont think anyone can disagree with this article.Follow

The reason Wildstar flopped was because it went into a direction no one actually asked for. People like harder games, but literally no one asked for the kinds of grinds they added that pretty much had you do what XIV does for relics now, only on a far more extreme level. It's the same reason TERA flopped initially - The combat was unique for the time, it was different and the storyline was more coherently told by having actual cutscenes. But once you take that away, it's yet another generic MMORPG, not worth the hype.

GW2 is the same way. It wasn't a bad game, but aside the unique mechanics..there's really nothing there. The same with FFXIV ARR+, it's not really doing anything new and what it "borrowed" from other developers it did terribly. So not taking risks is going to be the biggest downfall for XIV if they think "sticking to the formula" will work for 4.0 like it did with 3.0, and it realistically only worked with 3.0 because people bought into the hype and again, with the 3.0 > 3.1 lull made a lot more people aware to how the game is actually going.



Because the end-game ISN'T good for "traditional endgame raiders", because it's terribly designed which Yoshida has admitted countless times. Once they go back to a Coil format, however.

The first wave of Diablo 3 was great (minus the auction house), then they nerfed it into the ground.. and nerfed it and nerfed it and nerfed it. At this point it's just a big Legendary pinata.

The WoWified art style I could live with. Tearing the core game to shreds is what killed it for me.

The absurdity of the conversation this thread has been so badly derailed into makes me smile.

FFXI was a horrible game. A wonderfully, addictingly horrible game. We played it it. We got hooked. We realized how horrible it was. But we were hooked and couldn't stop. It was that sort of game that you just love to hate. And so a community came together, born from our mutual hatred for and addiction to the game. And that community was ******* amazing. That community is what made the game so strong, both in game and out. People's passions became ignited by the memories forged playing FFXI. That's why this silliness is here. The FFXI we all know and loved died years ago. The game's still going, but the community it once had died. And yet even years later, folks still get so fiercely passionate about **** that doesn't even matter.

I honestly doubt another game will come along that manages to impact people the way FFXI did. The market has changed too much. The demographic has shifted. The perfect storm like we had won't likely come in any form we recognize it as. And honestly, that's not necessarily a bad thing. FFXI was one of those things you really had to experience and stick with to understand. Think of it like the Fafhogg of MMOs. It required a lot more out of its players than (most) other MMOs of its time (you could consider the others that were on par or even more demanding as other analogous HNMs, though), and then something new came along and changed the field of play for good (Force Spawns/WoW), and most of what followed took more after the more successful model. But those who kept dedicating themselves to the older form continued, stubbornly, right up until they were finally forced to admit that things had changed beyond recognition, and the game they grew to hate so passionately together had stopped being that game.

And thus came Abyssea, the death knell of the core of FFXI's already declining community. The demographic of the game changed beyond recognition, bowing its knees to the passage of time, just as the HNMs eventually became force pops themselves. The game Post Abyssea became something else entirely. Not something bad, necessarily, but something different. It wasn't the FFXI it used to be. And it never would be again. They tried to do a modern take on FFXI with XIV1.0. we all know how well that worked out.

The XI we knew and loved to hate is a thing of the past. It's dead. It's been dead. And the vast majority of the things that drew us in and got us hooked are either things inherent to the time, or inherent to aspects of the game that just won't work in the modern market. It's sad, but it's true. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to needlessly bicker and compare the two games, even knowing how hard it is not to, and how often I'm prone to doing it. I think we're better off remembering the things we loved about the past, and focusing on ways to enjoy ourselves going forward. Needless bickering over semantics and mechanics and whatever else doesn't do anything but annoy each other. Why not direct that passion towards something more constructive?

/5amJinteRamblings

Edited, Sep 15th 2016 5:37am by Jinte

Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.

Dynamis... over and over and over and over and over again.

FFXI did not have a good reward system, it was reliant on the tolerance of players because honestly, that's all we expected in those days. The bar's been raised since then, and MMO developers are struggeling between the conflicting aims of having a realistic reward structure for time invested, and keeping players in the game for long periods of time. Sadly, the vocal minority that rings their ears still hungers for the so called prestige of the older days and the reactionary new players so used to the instant gratification is over-compensating in the argument. The sweet spot is between but SE seems to lash back and forth to each extreme without ever finding a good center.

Awell. I had given up on 'progression' this last cycle, and I actually am glad I did. Something intensely fun with a 860-900 Skillspeed Dragoon >.>

As per usual, I take the first couple words I glance at and just stop reading Hio's post.



Not a full sentence in and I see a red herring straw man.

Having it be horizontal does not mean it was a good reward system. At all. There are good Vertical rewards systems in FFXIV, there are bad Horizontal reward systems in FFXI, and it usually encompass the majority of its systems for the majority of its tenure. You need look no father than the Salvage Duping fiasco as the absolute on how the reward system in FFXI was far too stringent for the effort placed in. It was objectively bad.

That's not to say Horizontal itself is bad, but you can't rate reward systems good or bad.

As usual, I keep myself to one Hio talking point per post.

Hyrist, I totally thought of you while playing XI yesterday.

I need to get an i119 weapon, and found a guide that said you can get them from a type of Skirmish battle. So I go in there at i118 (all i119 main pieces, but an i117 weapon still) and proceed to get my *** absolutely handed to me by this notorious monster I had to kill.

Ugh... so.... an i118 player apparently can't get the baseline i119 weapon without being in a party full of i119 players (guessing, based on how hard I got beat).

And I'm going this route because after buying an i119 weapon on the AH, I realized I couldn't equip it without a trait that requires 50 CAPACITY POINTS to unlock... and you get like one capacity point per 30 merit points or something crazy like that, lol.

WHY???????

Seriously, WTF!

Last night was my second consecutive FFXI play session that ended with me logging out in frustration. Some folks may criticize XIV for not being enough like XI -- and sometimes I wish it were more XI-ish -- but damn. I logged straight into XIV afterward and relaxed for an hour by chatting with FC mates and enjoying a few quests I hadn't done. Going back to XI makes me much more thankful for XIV as it is.

In the meantime, I'm eager to get through the Adoulin and RoV stories so I can walk away from XI and never look back. Yeah, it's a special game, but damn. There's absolutely no way I'd play that game now if I just picked it up today.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 2:02pm by Thayos

Oh, that isn't unreasonable at all. But isn't this content kind of old by now? And wasn't the trust system introduced so players in this dead/dying game can still get stuff done?

Also, aren't these i119 weapons essentially basic weapons that need to be upgraded? I'm not expecting a fully upgraded relic to fall into my lap... I just want to be able to reach i119. What I'm asking for isn't unreasonable at all.

Really, though, I'm just saying that I'm thankful FFXIV isn't like FFXI. Seriously, no thanks! FFXIV lets you work with others without stonewalling your most basic progression, even if that progression is more limited. After playing both, I'll take XIV.

Thankfully, XI is still there for folks who prefer that kind of reward system. I just can't wait to be done with it. Love the game, love its storyline, but damn. DAMN. The game is still such a freaking grind even after being watered down by NPC parties and stat bloat.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 3:42pm by Thayos

Yeah, it's ultimately why I feel the line between MMO and ARPG is likely to start blurring more soon. Devilian was sort of a lite mix in that regard, but it's still arguably more MMO than ARPG with perhaps too much emphasis on PvP and some irksome cash grab tactics of F2P (lookin' at you, inventory space~).

Anyway, for Thayo's XI experience, there are a chain of RoE objectives you can work through that'd also hook you up with an i119 weapon eventually. They were all soloable for me when I did them a few months back, but that might not account for me being potentially better geared than you are at the moment. Nonetheless, you are spot on about their current endgame entry level being more a wall than a door. i119 content is also deceptive, as even without actual difficulty tiers like denoted in Ambuscade, there are obvious gaps in gear quality despite the same flag.

Multiplayer's all well and good when it plays out in synergy, but when you introduce the reality of everyone's wants and needs being all over the place even shortly after a fresh game/patch goes live, it's not at all surprising to find someone might get stuck and subsequently unhappy with the rate they can get aid. And again, it's not about being lazy or impatient. People want to do things, not hope they might able to possibly someday.

No, Filth.

"Whining" would be me going onto dedicated FFXI forums and making a big stink about a game that's clearly designed to be exactly what it is. But that's stupid. Why would I want to **** in other people's Cheerios? That would be just as dumb as me going over to ArenaNet's forums and trashing Guild Wars 2. I don't even play that game anymore, nor do I want to.

This is a FFXIV forum intended for FFXIV players. This is an appropriate place to point out and discuss the flaws of other games and relate them with our experiences in FFXIV -- and that means sometimes criticizing our beloved FFXI.



I'll have to look into this. Is this a glitch? Why is there an invisible NPC?

That's something else about XI that has been frustrating to deal with. I'd forgotten how completely not intuitive the game can be. Like the first skirmish I did... I completed the first objective and got that key, but didn't know I had to use that key in order to get my coffer to spawn. I also didn't know what the second objective was... either I missed it in the small amount of chat window text or it wasn't there. After running around looking for monsters to kill, the clock expired and I got kicked out. I had to go online and do some research in order to find that I needed to use my key inside. So I basically wasted an entire pop set... but it wouldn't have mattered anyway, because that wasn't even the Skirmish I needed to do... and I didn't even know that either until I did MORE online research. And turns out the Skirmish I needed was so much harder that I couldn't have done it regardless.

Seriously, just terrible.

FFXIV is the complete opposite. And sometimes, it feels like too much hand-holding. But I've got to say... not once playing FFXIV have I ever been frustrated by simple things such as accessing the right content, walking across a zone or receiving my rewards from a battle. That kind of stuff shouldn't be a headache.


Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:11pm by Thayos

Yeah, this.

I have no reason to play XI, other than to see how it ends. I have no interest in grinding endgame for gear used for more grinding for more gear for more grinding for more gear -- not without a reason to gear up, which, for me, has always been to help friends and complete story. All but a couple of my friends have left the game -- heck, most of my server has left the game -- and there's no more storyline coming. So I just want to finish the last chapter and epilogue before closing the book for good.

Not that any of this really matters. This is a FFXIV forum, and if I want to rip on FFXI's completely outdated reward/progression system, then this is an appropriate place to do it -- much more so than in a forum filled with people who actually enjoy that kind of torture.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:39pm by Thayos

Sorry but I actually prefer ffxiv's story formatting. We get a complete story from the onset of an expansion. Granted with continuing arcs. But we do not have any mid main storyline hard stops as they did for pretty much every expansion they had.

I even prefer the episodic story continuation to ffxi's format. It's just objectively more story content. Not liking the pacing is just a subjective conversation. Which is fine. But how is that different from any other "my favorite ff is better" argument?