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#177 Sep 10 2016 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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The reason Wildstar flopped was because it went into a direction no one actually asked for. People like harder games, but literally no one asked for the kinds of grinds they added that pretty much had you do what XIV does for relics now, only on a far more extreme level. It's the same reason TERA flopped initially - The combat was unique for the time, it was different and the storyline was more coherently told by having actual cutscenes. But once you take that away, it's yet another generic MMORPG, not worth the hype.

GW2 is the same way. It wasn't a bad game, but aside the unique mechanics..there's really nothing there. The same with FFXIV ARR+, it's not really doing anything new and what it "borrowed" from other developers it did terribly. So not taking risks is going to be the biggest downfall for XIV if they think "sticking to the formula" will work for 4.0 like it did with 3.0, and it realistically only worked with 3.0 because people bought into the hype and again, with the 3.0 > 3.1 lull made a lot more people aware to how the game is actually going.

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an endgame scene that's only really good for "traditional" endgame raiders -- who are in dwindling supply


Because the end-game ISN'T good for "traditional endgame raiders", because it's terribly designed which Yoshida has admitted countless times. Once they go back to a Coil format, however.
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#178 Sep 10 2016 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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The reason Wildstar flopped was because it went into a direction no one actually asked for. People like harder games, but literally no one asked for the kinds of grinds they added that pretty much had you do what XIV does for relics now, only on a far more extreme level.


Actually lots of people kept banging on the walls for huge raids and attunements and grinds and things like that. But it turns out that a hundred or so people on a forum are not enough to sustain an MMO.
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#179 Sep 10 2016 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, in watching debates elsewhere about why Diablo 3 "sucked" or whatever, something you see people bring up is that it wasn't dark and gritty enough, immediately veering then to typical Blizzard humor angles as their evidence. Meanwhile, I sit there pondering the mechanical aspects of their complaint (In that they want it harder for the player to see things) and the aesthetic (more blood, gore, etc.) and come to the eventual realization that what they're seeking is effectively a parody of the game/genre.

It's like, yeah, the game has problems, but light radius and being so emo even a goth would blush aren't one of 'em.


The first wave of Diablo 3 was great (minus the auction house), then they nerfed it into the ground.. and nerfed it and nerfed it and nerfed it. At this point it's just a big Legendary pinata.

The WoWified art style I could live with. Tearing the core game to shreds is what killed it for me.
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#180 Sep 10 2016 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
But it turns out that a hundred or so people on a forum are not enough to sustain an MMO.


Largely why I dislike when it comes to this game that they seem to have listened to a small portion of people on the OF that ended up really throwing this game's content systems out of whack.

As for this:

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Actually lots of people kept banging on the walls for huge raids and attunements and grinds and things like that.


Yep, but not for that style of MMO in general, people largely (in general communities) were wanting MMOs to stop basically being something you join, get through within a week or two and quit because back then MMOs really did nosedive in design lol. Whether people find it good or not is subjective, but that's why people were hyped for TERA because it wasn't being marketed as the typical (for the time) one and done MMO, it had SO much potential.

It still does, which is why it's one of the most popular (and profitable) MMOs out now, especially under F2P.
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#181 Sep 15 2016 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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The absurdity of the conversation this thread has been so badly derailed into makes me smile.

FFXI was a horrible game. A wonderfully, addictingly horrible game. We played it it. We got hooked. We realized how horrible it was. But we were hooked and couldn't stop. It was that sort of game that you just love to hate. And so a community came together, born from our mutual hatred for and addiction to the game. And that community was ******* amazing. That community is what made the game so strong, both in game and out. People's passions became ignited by the memories forged playing FFXI. That's why this silliness is here. The FFXI we all know and loved died years ago. The game's still going, but the community it once had died. And yet even years later, folks still get so fiercely passionate about **** that doesn't even matter.

I honestly doubt another game will come along that manages to impact people the way FFXI did. The market has changed too much. The demographic has shifted. The perfect storm like we had won't likely come in any form we recognize it as. And honestly, that's not necessarily a bad thing. FFXI was one of those things you really had to experience and stick with to understand. Think of it like the Fafhogg of MMOs. It required a lot more out of its players than (most) other MMOs of its time (you could consider the others that were on par or even more demanding as other analogous HNMs, though), and then something new came along and changed the field of play for good (Force Spawns/WoW), and most of what followed took more after the more successful model. But those who kept dedicating themselves to the older form continued, stubbornly, right up until they were finally forced to admit that things had changed beyond recognition, and the game they grew to hate so passionately together had stopped being that game.

And thus came Abyssea, the death knell of the core of FFXI's already declining community. The demographic of the game changed beyond recognition, bowing its knees to the passage of time, just as the HNMs eventually became force pops themselves. The game Post Abyssea became something else entirely. Not something bad, necessarily, but something different. It wasn't the FFXI it used to be. And it never would be again. They tried to do a modern take on FFXI with XIV1.0. we all know how well that worked out.

The XI we knew and loved to hate is a thing of the past. It's dead. It's been dead. And the vast majority of the things that drew us in and got us hooked are either things inherent to the time, or inherent to aspects of the game that just won't work in the modern market. It's sad, but it's true. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to needlessly bicker and compare the two games, even knowing how hard it is not to, and how often I'm prone to doing it. I think we're better off remembering the things we loved about the past, and focusing on ways to enjoy ourselves going forward. Needless bickering over semantics and mechanics and whatever else doesn't do anything but annoy each other. Why not direct that passion towards something more constructive?

/5amJinteRamblings

Edited, Sep 15th 2016 5:37am by Jinte
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#182 Sep 16 2016 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say the darkest point of XI for me was shortly into the ToAU era. You still had the nuisances of timed spawns, CoP was still capped (I was done, just before someone thinks to pounce...), there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds, and the accessibility of more casual things like assaults were hamstrung by the tag system. It was basically enough to tempt me into WoW for a short while at the behest of a friend, but enough happened there to convince me it wasn't worth sticking around for.

Meanwhile, I'm one of those people who don't feel Abyssea killed the game, but actually helped give it some very much needed life. It wasn't perfect, of course, but since it was evident XIV was to be their next golden child, we pretty much had to take the bad with the good. Prior to that, Campaign did a good job of keeping me interested between the ability to gain EXP at my own pace, learning to understand the reward system it carried, and the ability to play jobs outside the XI meta. Yeah, the stupid OP NMs sucked, but that's where the friendly NPCs, including pixies, most came in handy. Basically, there was more of a game to be played than just standing in one spot waiting for NM or chaining the weakest possible mobs for hours. If SE had built on the equipment reward system, like a means to learn the various new WS, 75-cap gear that rivaled Homam and other combos, and slip things like Dynamis currency into the AN exchange, you would've had something a lot more people would've thrown themselves at. Heck, the fact people took advantage of the song buff exploit early on speaks volumes of just how poorly the leveling game was faring at the time, only to have people try and be all vigilante because those that did weren't "playing properly" as some would say. And that's really just one of the hallmark issues of internet gaming in general: Entirely too much worry about how others might be enjoying themselves with little reservation to try and **** that up because it's not their way. The whole Casual vs. Hardcore debate wouldn't even be a thing if things were truly fair.
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#183 Sep 16 2016 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,


Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.
#184 Sep 16 2016 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,

Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.

You have to remember that not all of that was available at launch. When ToAU first released there was no Salvage, ZMN, Nyzul Isle, etc. Even assault only went to rank 3(4?) at the time. Once you did the handful of one time quests and missions, and used up your limited assault tags, what was left besides exping and the occasional besieged?
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#185 Sep 16 2016 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once you did the handful of one time quests and missions, and used up your limited assault tags, what was left besides exping and the occasional besieged?


Dynamis... over and over and over and over and over again.
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#186 Sep 17 2016 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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there honestly wasn't much to do in the ToAU areas other than kill birds,


Wow, really? I felt ToAU gave me loads to do, more than what any other expansion in the 75-era gave me, really.

I spent a great deal of time on the Assault, Salvage, and ZNM systems.


Karlina covered part of it, but even when stuff like Salvage or ZNMs rolled around, I didn't take to them, either.

To me, Salvage failed because the premise of stripping of us our hard-earned gear as a gimmick seemed dumb, to the point the event even had to add a chest at the beginning to try and make it more palatable to players. Then there's just the stupid RNG on some of the NMs or totally un-intuitive pop conditions like clearing a whole floor with no gear unlocks (that people cheesed with logouts) and so on. On top of that, the gear you did get from within the event wasn't even immediately usable, instead requiring partner pieces then, at the time, generally rare materials.

ZNMs were just a system of way, way, way too many NMs with useless gear and the possibility you might not be able to advance to the next tier if the trophy item didn't drop. Further this with the craptastic "picture taking" system and yeah...

My memories of Beseiged pretty much involved dying to AoEs I couldn't see or getting charmed, then occasionally PKed. The concept was sound, but the implementation just wasn't great. Losing key NPCs that only a THF could maybe solo free was probably one of the worst consequences of this system. And if we're being realistic, the EXP payout at the end (if you were alive) was pretty feeble for the time it all took, hearkening back a bit to why people even did the song thing.

But being brutally honest, I've never been happy with how SE handled expansion releases for XI. It was like on top of the monthly fee, we were basically paying for something that was 20-30% done and fleshed out over the next year+. CoP bringing with it no jobs is also likely to be one of the common strikes you'll see people level against it in retrospect. Not that new jobs didn't have that same incomplete issue of other content. :/
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#187 Sep 17 2016 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI did not have a good reward system, it was reliant on the tolerance of players because honestly, that's all we expected in those days. The bar's been raised since then, and MMO developers are struggeling between the conflicting aims of having a realistic reward structure for time invested, and keeping players in the game for long periods of time. Sadly, the vocal minority that rings their ears still hungers for the so called prestige of the older days and the reactionary new players so used to the instant gratification is over-compensating in the argument. The sweet spot is between but SE seems to lash back and forth to each extreme without ever finding a good center.

Awell. I had given up on 'progression' this last cycle, and I actually am glad I did. Something intensely fun with a 860-900 Skillspeed Dragoon >.>
#188 Sep 18 2016 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyrist wrote:
FFXI did not have a good reward system


It did actually, because it was horizontal, which kept content relevant due to the fact the gear was and always will be (at the time) useful for various reasons, especially the currency based content systems, which XI has numerous of them when you consider modern XI as well (since people on this board tend to say "you can't look back etc etc.") Maybe it didn't benefit your playstyle personaly, but in terms of itemization? it's still one of the best simply because of the style of gameplay it is.

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The bar's been raised since then, and MMO developers are struggeling between the conflicting aims of having a realistic reward structure for time invested, and keeping players in the game for long periods of time.


When you look at games like FFXIV and some recent MMOs, what bar was raised? Gear is virtually boring and virtually useless when you really think about it. (The whole "Glamour is the real end-game seems like a joke but it's more true than people want to admit.) Even blade & waifu has better itemization than this game, so I don't think any bar was risen, it was lowered if anything because a realistic reward structure wouldn't continually force you into obsolete content, like some 3.4 content is slated to do. it may offer "new rewards" but it doesn't change the fact you're going to be running outdated content as per vertical progression. (Not joking, a task asks you to do binding coil.)

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keeping players in the game for long periods of time


Funnily enough, Yoshida said himself at gamescom that players shouldn't solely play FFXIV at risk of "burning out" and play multiple MMOs as a response to a player asking SPECIFICALLY about incentives on playing this game continually, so I don't think so much a bar was risen as much as it was lowered in many aspects, since normally keeping players in the game for a long period of time was due to content actually lasting longer than a week or two because it was designed with tiers, you used one set of content to fully gear before tackling the next or so on.

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The sweet spot is between but SE seems to lash back and forth to each extreme without ever finding a good center.


The sweet spot is indeed, in between, but the content design kind of makes it hard because this game either hands everything out or makes you work for it, PoTD proven if you hand things out with relevance you're going to obsolete content that actually takes time and effort to do. PoTD in 3.4, if the same as the previous one, will obsolete Sophia day one.which is not good content design. There's no "choosing" either, people will go for the handouts 100% of the time unless, with the limited pool of stats they give us, Sophia's weapons (or armor) is better than PoTD 51-100, much like Diadem is dead on arrival unless there's more to it we don't know yet.

Unless of course, Sophia's Gun for example is Dex/Crit and PoTD gun is Skillspeed and Det, then well, that choice is obvious, but for the majority of the community that have issues doing simple mechanics (watch how many get hit with gaze attacks)..the choice will definitely not be sophia.
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#189 Sep 18 2016 at 12:24 PM Rating: Default
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As per usual, I take the first couple words I glance at and just stop reading Hio's post.

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It did actually, because it was horizontal,


Not a full sentence in and I see a red herring straw man.

Having it be horizontal does not mean it was a good reward system. At all. There are good Vertical rewards systems in FFXIV, there are bad Horizontal reward systems in FFXI, and it usually encompass the majority of its systems for the majority of its tenure. You need look no father than the Salvage Duping fiasco as the absolute on how the reward system in FFXI was far too stringent for the effort placed in. It was objectively bad.

That's not to say Horizontal itself is bad, but you can't rate reward systems good or bad.

As usual, I keep myself to one Hio talking point per post.
#190 Sep 19 2016 at 12:51 PM Rating: Default
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Guess I should start using some Hyrist logic of my own.

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You need look no father than the Salvage Duping fiasco


This just in, people cheat in MMORPGs.
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#191 Sep 19 2016 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Hyrist, I totally thought of you while playing XI yesterday.

I need to get an i119 weapon, and found a guide that said you can get them from a type of Skirmish battle. So I go in there at i118 (all i119 main pieces, but an i117 weapon still) and proceed to get my *** absolutely handed to me by this notorious monster I had to kill.

Ugh... so.... an i118 player apparently can't get the baseline i119 weapon without being in a party full of i119 players (guessing, based on how hard I got beat).

And I'm going this route because after buying an i119 weapon on the AH, I realized I couldn't equip it without a trait that requires 50 CAPACITY POINTS to unlock... and you get like one capacity point per 30 merit points or something crazy like that, lol.

WHY???????

Seriously, WTF!

Last night was my second consecutive FFXI play session that ended with me logging out in frustration. Some folks may criticize XIV for not being enough like XI -- and sometimes I wish it were more XI-ish -- but damn. I logged straight into XIV afterward and relaxed for an hour by chatting with FC mates and enjoying a few quests I hadn't done. Going back to XI makes me much more thankful for XIV as it is.

In the meantime, I'm eager to get through the Adoulin and RoV stories so I can walk away from XI and never look back. Yeah, it's a special game, but damn. There's absolutely no way I'd play that game now if I just picked it up today.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 2:02pm by Thayos
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#192 Sep 19 2016 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
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When did it become unreasonable that a player might require the help of other players... in a multiplayer game? Is it also unreasonable to expect that one might actually have to play the game to get the most out of it?

I don't even.
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#193 Sep 19 2016 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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When did it become unreasonable that a player might require the help of other players... in a multiplayer game?


Oh, that isn't unreasonable at all. But isn't this content kind of old by now? And wasn't the trust system introduced so players in this dead/dying game can still get stuff done?

Also, aren't these i119 weapons essentially basic weapons that need to be upgraded? I'm not expecting a fully upgraded relic to fall into my lap... I just want to be able to reach i119. What I'm asking for isn't unreasonable at all.

Really, though, I'm just saying that I'm thankful FFXIV isn't like FFXI. Seriously, no thanks! FFXIV lets you work with others without stonewalling your most basic progression, even if that progression is more limited. After playing both, I'll take XIV.

Thankfully, XI is still there for folks who prefer that kind of reward system. I just can't wait to be done with it. Love the game, love its storyline, but damn. DAMN. The game is still such a freaking grind even after being watered down by NPC parties and stat bloat.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 3:42pm by Thayos
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#194 Sep 19 2016 at 8:06 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah some of the dumbass talking points really do just wear thin.

"Oh we need you to be required to get a group to have even the slightest hope of completing the most basic story content even though it's not even close to endgame." *eyeroll* It's 2016. Stop acting like the old people waving the cane at the whipper snappers. You're this generations old fogies that can't get with the times.

No, Thayos, cheese the system, do Alluvion Skirmish Yorcia Weld floor 1s with Sashes and spend your copper vouchers into obsidian fragments. Hope for 3 butterfly wings to trade to the invisible NPC near the entrance. The name of all of which elude me, currently being sleep deprived.

Skirmish weapons are serviceable for entry level on all ilvl content. And you can gamble with the stones for decent stat upgrades. From there you may have a decent chance of actually getting into minor endgame stuffs, if you're interested.

But yeah, case in point - not even being able to get entry level stuff on your own power without obscene amounts of grinding isn't an intelligent reward system, not for an aged game or a current game. In today's day of drop-in-and-play multiplayer on so many RPGs these days, MMO's are no longer competing just in their own niche market where they can make contrite rules as to what is 'supposed to be'.
#195 Sep 19 2016 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it's ultimately why I feel the line between MMO and ARPG is likely to start blurring more soon. Devilian was sort of a lite mix in that regard, but it's still arguably more MMO than ARPG with perhaps too much emphasis on PvP and some irksome cash grab tactics of F2P (lookin' at you, inventory space~).

Anyway, for Thayo's XI experience, there are a chain of RoE objectives you can work through that'd also hook you up with an i119 weapon eventually. They were all soloable for me when I did them a few months back, but that might not account for me being potentially better geared than you are at the moment. Nonetheless, you are spot on about their current endgame entry level being more a wall than a door. i119 content is also deceptive, as even without actual difficulty tiers like denoted in Ambuscade, there are obvious gaps in gear quality despite the same flag.

Multiplayer's all well and good when it plays out in synergy, but when you introduce the reality of everyone's wants and needs being all over the place even shortly after a fresh game/patch goes live, it's not at all surprising to find someone might get stuck and subsequently unhappy with the rate they can get aid. And again, it's not about being lazy or impatient. People want to do things, not hope they might able to possibly someday.
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#196 Sep 19 2016 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
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I understand your position Thayos, but FFXI isn't catered to players that are there to obtain some arbitrary gear score, complete story content and then quit. From that perspective, no what you're asking for isn't unreasonable. From the perspective of a player who is actively seeking capacity points for what their intended use is... you're whining.

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#197 Sep 19 2016 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand your position Thayos, but FFXI isn't catered to players that are there to obtain some arbitrary gear score, complete story content and then quit. From that perspective, no what you're asking for isn't unreasonable. From the perspective of a player who is actively seeking capacity points for what their intended use is... you're whining.


No, Filth.

"Whining" would be me going onto dedicated FFXI forums and making a big stink about a game that's clearly designed to be exactly what it is. But that's stupid. Why would I want to **** in other people's Cheerios? That would be just as dumb as me going over to ArenaNet's forums and trashing Guild Wars 2. I don't even play that game anymore, nor do I want to.

This is a FFXIV forum intended for FFXIV players. This is an appropriate place to point out and discuss the flaws of other games and relate them with our experiences in FFXIV -- and that means sometimes criticizing our beloved FFXI.

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No, Thayos, cheese the system, do Alluvion Skirmish Yorcia Weld floor 1s with Sashes and spend your copper vouchers into obsidian fragments. Hope for 3 butterfly wings to trade to the invisible NPC near the entrance. The name of all of which elude me, currently being sleep deprived.


I'll have to look into this. Is this a glitch? Why is there an invisible NPC?

That's something else about XI that has been frustrating to deal with. I'd forgotten how completely not intuitive the game can be. Like the first skirmish I did... I completed the first objective and got that key, but didn't know I had to use that key in order to get my coffer to spawn. I also didn't know what the second objective was... either I missed it in the small amount of chat window text or it wasn't there. After running around looking for monsters to kill, the clock expired and I got kicked out. I had to go online and do some research in order to find that I needed to use my key inside. So I basically wasted an entire pop set... but it wouldn't have mattered anyway, because that wasn't even the Skirmish I needed to do... and I didn't even know that either until I did MORE online research. And turns out the Skirmish I needed was so much harder that I couldn't have done it regardless.

Seriously, just terrible.

FFXIV is the complete opposite. And sometimes, it feels like too much hand-holding. But I've got to say... not once playing FFXIV have I ever been frustrated by simple things such as accessing the right content, walking across a zone or receiving my rewards from a battle. That kind of stuff shouldn't be a headache.


Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:11pm by Thayos
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#198 Sep 19 2016 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say his position is being made from someone who realizes SE has put XI out to pasture. Not a whole lot different than just binging some show that recently ended as you lost track of it after season whatever. He wants to finish the proverbial book, close it, and put it back on the shelf.

Things like JP/CP are time sink implicitly for the sake of it. I can hop over to BG and find people grumbling each month increased CP campaigns aren't announced. And knowing how MMO communities tend to be about optimization/efficiency, being on the low end of the JP spectrum isn't going to be doing you any favors. And for someone fresh into 99/ilvl, I'd be surprised if they regularly break 5 JP and hour solo. So, that crap weapon he can't even equip would take 10 hours of play alone. XI being what it is, gaining JP doesn't really interact too well with making money or getting other gear, either.

Sparks gear isn't even really entry level anymore, especially since Ambuscade is now the endgame they want to push there. Have fun (never) doing the VD groups in that. Or 3x+ the work at lower difficulties. Wanna do Skirmish so your better poised for Ambuscade? Good luck finding help anywhere but Asura. Bluntly, the process isn't self-sustaining. Once content passes its rush, its done. And it was true in 2005 just as it is now. Only reason some things persisted is we were effectively guilt tripped into it by the multiplayer requirement, or the belief that if we scratched someone's back, they'd scratch ours when we needed it. Why else would someone wanna kill Byakko when they've already got their Haidate. Getting the pops certainly weren't fun.
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#199 Sep 19 2016 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say his position is being made from someone who realizes SE has put XI out to pasture. Not a whole lot different than just binging some show that recently ended as you lost track of it after season whatever. He wants to finish the proverbial book, close it, and put it back on the shelf.


Yeah, this.

I have no reason to play XI, other than to see how it ends. I have no interest in grinding endgame for gear used for more grinding for more gear for more grinding for more gear -- not without a reason to gear up, which, for me, has always been to help friends and complete story. All but a couple of my friends have left the game -- heck, most of my server has left the game -- and there's no more storyline coming. So I just want to finish the last chapter and epilogue before closing the book for good.

Not that any of this really matters. This is a FFXIV forum, and if I want to rip on FFXI's completely outdated reward/progression system, then this is an appropriate place to do it -- much more so than in a forum filled with people who actually enjoy that kind of torture.

Edited, Sep 19th 2016 10:39pm by Thayos
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#200 Sep 20 2016 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You're free to do so, considering the age of the game. However, FFXI's story (minus the horrible WoTG's retcon festa) is arguably vastly superior to XIV's "let's advance the plot at a snail pace. Also EDGY and DARKNESS" story approach and fragmented storytelling (do I need to tell again that the entire HW expansion has been a side story?).

For all the flaws XI has, story isn't one of them.

Also as a personal taste I hated the DRK quest storyline in XIV. I prefer much the XI's simpler (and close to certain works by Go Nagai) approach to the class.

Edited, Sep 20th 2016 8:19pm by xizro
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Korede..Millia moshido wa...
PLD/WAR 75/37 - Asura
#201 Sep 20 2016 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry but I actually prefer ffxiv's story formatting. We get a complete story from the onset of an expansion. Granted with continuing arcs. But we do not have any mid main storyline hard stops as they did for pretty much every expansion they had.

I even prefer the episodic story continuation to ffxi's format. It's just objectively more story content. Not liking the pacing is just a subjective conversation. Which is fine. But how is that different from any other "my favorite ff is better" argument?
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