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Power Leveling through BlizzardFollow

#152 Mar 15 2014 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Not core raiding, core raiders - there's no such thing as core raiding outside of MC in the same way there's no such thing as 'core volunteering' but there are core volunteers. Core raiders are the core of a raiding guild (as you might expect) because they turn up reliably for progression, and already take one another seriously in that respect. No-one's going to stop taking you seriously because you rerolled a healer for the good of the guild but haven't got BIS cloak yet. That's the kind of BS requirement you throw at people you don't know for random raids/recruitment.

All the hardcore raiders you know have every class at level cap? That is not particularly usual, and perhaps owes itself to the unusually long content droughts the Chinese realms had in the past. None of the people I know who play now or in the past have every character at max level. Hell, I knew someone who had three druids at level cap, but no-one with every class. She still plays, btw, (Amberpaw @ Kazzak, 11/14 SoG) and when I asked about it she said that it would, of course, be an advantage to be able to class change and only worry about gearing up.

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It isn't that "leveling doesn't matter" it's that it doesn't make enough difference to be the dreaded pay to win. At one time, the Celestial Steed was the harbinger of end times because one could buy it for money and it was BtA.


So you believe power is being bought, but that it's some amount of power less than that needed to guarantee victory (genuine question, not purely rhetorical)? Pay to win is generally employed as a disparaging bit of hyperbole to describe any game where power is bought, so it's unclear what private threshold you're using for the term and thus how much you think buying a level up matters.
#153 Mar 15 2014 at 5:40 AM Rating: Default
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Taking a class from 0 to 90 takes MONTHS.

I still don't understand how a service that saves you MONTHS is not P2W.

Rhodeo, putting it bluntly, "this doesn't affect most current raiders because they've already leveled everything" isn't a valid defense. Logic doesn't work that way. A service doesn't stop being P2W because the population that can use it to P2W is smaller. It doesn't matter if the majority of them are playing catch-up.

What matters is that its a service with a tangible reward on experience and capability of a player who would use the service.

Pointing to people who would never use the service, because they have a full set of classes at cap, and using them to explain why a service isn't P2W is absurd. You've started out from the perspective of a group that could get no benefit from it and are using it to completely ignore the group that would get a significant benefit from it.
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#154 Mar 15 2014 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's not pay to win, because it doesn't affect people who want to grind through all the levels. I wouldn't call getting tangible results pay to win, I would only use that term when it affects other people negatively. If you want to level up, that's always available and your experience isn't diminished. I always consider pay to win as a competitive scenario. Clearly you have different criteria, but I would say with your criteria: who cares? If it doesn't affect me negatively, then I don't see the issue.
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#155 Mar 15 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Taking a class from 0 to 90 takes MONTHS.


Wha?

Bull.

My Friend hit Level 90 on his FIRST character (a Warlock) in 5d playtime. This was without Recruit-a-Friend, and without Heirlooms. He was also doing things like Argent Tournament Dailies as soon as he hit 77 (to get heirlooms ASAP), doing Darkmoon Faire whenever possible, and also dinking around with Pet Battles. He probably could have done it in as little as 3d if he had done nothing but grinding dungeons and quests.

5 days = 120 hours.

At 2 hours a day, that's only two months.

And 2 hours a day is.... not much at all. That's bare minimum of playing an MMORPG.

EDIT:

http://i.imgur.com/4w0HHkE.jpg

Note the entry for "Jiayi" (2nd down under The Scryers). Note how she has 5d 9h and she's I-level 513. That's what an experienced player can do.

Edited, Mar 15th 2014 1:21pm by Lyrailis
#156 Mar 15 2014 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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What kind of reasonable human being would read "it takes months" and assume I meant in-game playtime. Would you have EVER thought I was saying it takes months in-game if I had said "It takes 1.5 months to be endgame ready when hitting cap"? Of course not.

Stop being ridiculous.

The average person is going to take months and months to accrue 5d of playtime. Even if we assume 2 hours a day, every day, that's still 2 months. And the average player spends less time than that playing.

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I think it's not pay to win, because it doesn't affect people who want to grind through all the levels. I wouldn't call getting tangible results pay to win, I would only use that term when it affects other people negatively. If you want to level up, that's always available and your experience isn't diminished. I always consider pay to win as a competitive scenario. Clearly you have different criteria, but I would say with your criteria: who cares? If it doesn't affect me negatively, then I don't see the issue.


My issue with this definition of P2W is that it means it's fundamentally irrelevant to PVE. Your own gearing will never adversely affect another player in PVE. It might make you stronger than them, but PVE isn't a competitive PVP environment (obviously).

I can't endorse a P2W definition that's so narrowly defining "win" as only meaning "paying to obtain a superior position, competitively, against other players."

So I'm looking to define "pay to win" as "paying for a significant advantage relative to what is available without paying."

Yes, saving 5d of playtime only matters if you want to new character at cap and want it at cap to access endgame. Yes, someone can absolutely reach cap without paying.

But paying for direct access to endgame vs. having to spend 120 hours of your life reaching that same position is a pretty massive difference if you want another character at endgame.

Obviously it doesn't matter to you if you don't. But why the hell would that change anything?
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#157 Mar 15 2014 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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The average person is going to take months and months to accrue 5d of playtime. Even if we assume 2 hours a day, every day, that's still 2 months. And the average player spends less time than that playing.


Again, 5d /played = 120 hours.

Your "average" WoW player (at least anybody who is any serious in WoW enough to care about getting a character on 90 ASAP) probably plays more than 2 hours a day.

2 hours a day average = 60 days = 2 months.

We need to consider who the target audience of the Lv90 Boost really is. Not your casual Joe who only logs on for an hour a day average (this type of person would hardly be interested in Endgame as he wouldn't have enough time to devote to it), but rather the guy who has 4, 5, 6 alts and doesn't feel like leveling another.

The guys with lots of alts I can certainly say probably play more than 2hr/day average. Even at 3 hours a day avg, that's only 40 days.

And again: When I said 5d earlier, said friend was doinking around and not seriously playing to get to 90 ASAP.

I bet I could do it in 3d /played without Heirlooms/RaF. That's only 72 Hours, or, 36 days if played 2hr/day average. Heck, look at my Lv31 Paladin in that screenshot above.

Lv31, and only 7 hours played.

Anybody who has leveled alts knows that the first 40-60 levels are the slowest due to travel time. Once you get Lv40 and your 2nd Mount, it gets much faster. Once you get to Outland and you can fly, even faster still. And when you get 280% flying at Lv70, you're going to just mow through the levels like they're nothing.

Edited, Mar 15th 2014 2:45pm by Lyrailis
#158 Mar 15 2014 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Pay to win is generally employed as a disparaging bit of hyperbole to describe any game where power is bought, so it's unclear what private threshold you're using for the term and thus how much you think buying a level up matters.


Fair enough.

For starters, I care about the form of pay to win where failure to pay money significantly degrades my ability to play the game on a somewhat equal playing field. Taken to the level of the absurd, buying game time at a discount could be portrayed as gaining a gaming advantage by having access to more cash. I don't consider that a significant issue. The guy who can afford a nice computer that doesn't choke on some of the fights where the spell effects get a bit much and the bandwidth to go with it, he may have a different advantage but that falls under my idea of a somewhat equal playing field.

The thing that has tended to **** me off in WoW is the TCG. I used to play CCGs and I know the drill with buying boxes of cards. It always irked me that buying stuff for another game translated into the ability to muddy the line between dollars and WoW currency, and that much of that stuff had no other purpose in the TCG as far as I could tell. Sell Reins of the Swift Spectral Tiger just once and you'll have access to enough gold for some pretty nice stuff off the regular and black market auction houses. When the TCG folds up, I'll be happier but it doesn't quite cross the P2W line for me because I don't feel it is predictable enough to make it a requirement for better game play.

The boost to 90 doesn't break my threshold because it is a minor convenience and there are other ways to reach a similar effect that range from RAF to 300% XP potions, or even a helpful guild.

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All the hardcore raiders you know have every class at level cap?


In fairness, what I actually said was that they have their full kit -- they have everything that they care to have. For some that means one of each, others have a preferred role or a class they simply hate to play. One of our healers would only heal, but she had one of every class that would allow her to heal and multiples of her favorite classes since she played more than one account. I'm a lightweight for our guild, I have one of each class except Paladin at 90. Because of multiple accounts I have multiples of some classes on the same faction, and more if I count cross faction. The more hardcore guys have multiple toons geared up for 25H SoO.

Sigh, I wanted the Jade Crane Chick on the account with my old toons, so I've absentmindedly leveled my third monk. That will give you some idea of why I don't take the 1-90 grind that seriously, I'm going to end up with a third monk just because I wanted a pet that isn't particularly hard to find on the AH. This one is special and different though, she's female and a red Pandaren. Smiley: nod

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No-one's going to stop taking you seriously because you rerolled a healer for the good of the guild but haven't got BIS cloak yet.


You guys still do that? On a bad day, one of the DPS with a healing spec might respec. Before we have a good DPS from a class with no healing spec reroll, we recruit a new healer. We did that about halfway through MoP because our healer was in a near fatal car crash. As for BiS, well, the legendary cloak is something of an exception and if you're still playing you know that.
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#159 Mar 15 2014 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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As for BiS, well, the legendary cloak is something of an exception and if you're still playing you know that.


^^
That cloak is simply ridiculous, no matter who you are.

On one hand, it is nice to see a Legendary that everybody gets access to.
On the other hand, I don't like how it is pretty much required if you wanna do anything serious, and it takes months and months and months of grind to get it. It is pretty much Attunement 2.0.
#160 Mar 15 2014 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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If you think the average WoW player is logging in for more than 2 hours a day, you REALLY need to spend less time in a gaming forum echo chambers. No, really.

And the biggest joke here is that you think we can narrow down the population for whom a boost service would be appealing to a very small niche group of hardcore players. That's what I'm most enjoying here.

Quote:

We need to consider who the target audience of the Lv90 Boost really is. Not your casual Joe who only logs on for an hour a day average (this type of person would hardly be interested in Endgame as he wouldn't have enough time to devote to it), but rather the guy who has 4, 5, 6 alts and doesn't feel like leveling another.


The boost service is JUST as attractive to "I can only log in 3 times a week" guy as it is to "I log in every day" guy, since their playtime isn't a serious consideration when they're deciding whether or not they want to invest over a hundred hours doing something they don't really want to do just because they want a new class at cap.

And, again, why the hell are people trying to play a game of "well, to THIS population..."

If your argument depends on you narrowing your population down to a specific group, your argument sucks. No exceptions.
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#161 Mar 15 2014 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If you think the average WoW player is logging in for more than 2 hours a day, you REALLY need to spend less time in a gaming forum echo chambers. No, really.


Do you have any sort of hard data that says otherwise?

"Burden of Proof lies upon the accuser", afterall. You're the one saying that "average wow players play 2 hours a day or less". You care to back that up?

Quote:
And the biggest joke here is that you think we can narrow down the population for whom a boost service would be appealing to a very small niche group of hardcore players. That's what I'm most enjoying here.


I'm narrowing down the number of people who would actually care about Level Boosted Characters. Your Average Joe who buys a Level Boost probably doesn't care if other people had done the same. What group of people are doing the most whining about this Level Boost feature? It sure isn't the Average Casual Joes, that's for sure.

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Quote:

We need to consider who the target audience of the Lv90 Boost really is. Not your casual Joe who only logs on for an hour a day average (this type of person would hardly be interested in Endgame as he wouldn't have enough time to devote to it), but rather the guy who has 4, 5, 6 alts and doesn't feel like leveling another.


The boost service is JUST as attractive to "I can only log in 3 times a week" guy as it is to "I log in every day" guy, since their playtime isn't a serious consideration when they're deciding whether or not they want to invest over a hundred hours doing something they don't really want to do just because they want a new class at cap.


Again, sure, the Average Joe might be tempted to get Level 90 now. But then if it is his first character, he might want to see the levelup process at least once, too. Given the fact you get a FREE Level 90 boost upon purchase of WoD, I'm willing to say that MOST people who BUY a Lv90 Boost are on their 3rd character+.

I don't know too many people who'd plunk down $60 on a third level 90 who are casual enough that they only play 2hr/day average. Why would you plunk down $60 on a Level 90 when you're so casual you'd probably never get past LFR?

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And, again, why the hell are people trying to play a game of "well, to THIS population..."

If your argument depends on you narrowing your population down to a specific group, your argument sucks. No exceptions.


Again, I was narrowing down who is doing the most whining about the Level Boost feature. The Average Casual Joe group usually doesn't care. They just play the game. The people who are doing the most whining are the Elitist and Hardcore crowds.

But then I don't get why they're whining; it isn't like you get a Cloak handed to you and it isn't like anybody is going to recruit a level boosted character into a Normal+ SoO guild, and it takes a fair bit of Timeless Isle grinding to get into LFR SoO.

The only crowd that has any business whining about Level Boosted characters are PvPers in Random BGs, and LFR ToT groups. But then, myself and several other people on oboards have noted that many level boosted characters play better than the overgeared players do. I actually saw Horridon with 350mil after Amani Door this past week. I've never seen that happen, ever. More than half of the DPS in the raid were Level Boosted characters, as were 2 of the healers yet it was a Flawless Horridon run and all it took was a simple "Adds > Boss" raid warning.
#162 Mar 15 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Default
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Um, no.

Burden of proof is always on the person making an argument.

I posited an if-then statement using a 2 hour mark. But as it was an if-then statement, and not a statement about the actual average playtime of players, I don't need to justify anything. It was always framed as an assumption, and it never needed to be true to return a true value to my statement (if-then statements only hold false if the antecedent is true but the consequent false).

YOU made a definitive statement about what average playtime was. Yeah, I doubt very much that it's over 2 hours a day. Doesn't matter, though. Burden isn't on me. I don't need to justify my disbelief in your statement, because you never offered a sound argument to its truth value in the first place.

Stop arguing like gbaji. It's unbecoming.
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#163 Mar 15 2014 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
A day, every day? Not always 2 hours for me. Today, I'm up to 10min because I logged in to do my Inscription CDs and see if there were anymore cheap learn-o-glyph scrolls on the AH. But it is Saturday and I went off and did RL stuff.
So my weekend game play can range fro 0 to a lot.

Past week I've put in at least 10, so that would be 2/day. Only was 10 due to my Naga Mouse being messed up (ordered a g600..now if I could get the damn program to open -.-), and I've been playing the new South Park game.

I've already said pages back, when I leveled my Monk, I did it in 3 weeks w/ full BoA. When I say 3 weeks, I mean MoP came out, and 3 weeks later I had a 90 Panda Monk. Not play time.

I also visit this site for many hours a day as well. Like when I check FB, I also check here. Or when I'm waiting for a Q to go off in WoW, I alt-tab to this site, reddit, the chive, FB. Multi-tasking on the internet...tis fun.

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#164 Mar 15 2014 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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A day, every day? Not always 2 hours for me.


Well, 2hr/day average is what was meant, obviously. lol.
#165 Mar 15 2014 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
Right lol.
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#166 Mar 19 2014 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Was this linked yet? Pretty cute.

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#167 Mar 19 2014 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Was this linked yet? Pretty cute.




it has not. That is how I feel most new players feel when they join WoW, they just want to do the "fun".
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#168 Mar 20 2014 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
5 days = 120 hours.
Think I've been around 7 days to cap usually, at 10 hours a week (or a bit more) or so that tended to put me at a good 3-4 months. Was never the most efficient leveler-type-person though. All that time play the AH never helped. Smiley: lol
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